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RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS 



m THE 



TALMAGE CASE, 



BEFORE THE 



Presbytery of Brooklyn. 



1879. 



RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS 

\ 

OF THE 

Presbytery of Brooklyn in the Talmage Case. 



At a meeting of the Presbytery of Brooklyn, held February 
3d, 1879, in the Second Presbyterian Church, Brooklyn, L. I., 
the following resolution was presented by Be v. A. Crosby, and 
after considerable discussion, was adopted by a vote of 27 to 
10, the ayes and noes bein^ called : 

Whereas, the Rev. T. D. W. Talmage, D.D., is charged by 
common fame with falsehood and deceit, and with using im- 
proper methods in preaching, which tend to bring religion into 
contempt ; and, 

JVhereas, it is the duty of Presbytery to protect the good 
name of its membefs when they are unjustly assailed and to 
subject those who offend to proper discipline ; therefore, 

Resolved, That a Committee consisting of three ministers 
and two elders be appointed to investigate the nature and 
extent of the common fame, referred to in the preamble and 
report to Presbytery, what, if any, further action should be 
taken. 

Rev. A. Crosby, Bev. J. D. Wells, D.D., and Rev. A. Mc- 
Clelland, D.D., with Elders Babcock and McDougall, were 
appointed such Committee. 

(Signed) J. M. GBEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 

February 17th, 2 p.m. 

At a meeting of the Presbytery of Brooklyn, held in the 
Second Presbyterian Church, on February 17th, 1879, at 2 P.M., 
the Committee having in charge the Talmage Inquiry, pre- 
sented the following report, which was approved : 

" Your Committee report progress, and as to the minds of 



2 



some members of the Committee there : a doubt as to the ex- 
tent of our powers, we would ask Presb} 7 te< to instruct us 
whether, incase we should be compelled to recommend a judi- 
cial trial, we should be expected to present with such recom- 
mendation a charge and specifications. we suggest that 
when Presbytery adjourn, it adjourn to in it 2 o'clock on 
Monday next, when this Committee will be ready to report in 
full." 

In answer to the question of the Committee, the following 
was adopted : 

The Committee are instructed that if they find that the com- 
mon fame against Dr. Talmage fulfills all the conditions of the 
requirements of the BoDk of Discipline, chapter 3d, section 5th, 
they shall formulate such common fame into a charge with 
specifications, and the names of the witnesses to support it, 
and submit the same to the Presbytery. 

The Committee were instructed to report at an adjourned 
meeting to be held on Monday, March 10th, at 2 p.m., in the 
Second Presbyterian Church. 

The Presbytery then adjourned. 

'(Signed) J. M. GKEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



March 10th, 2 p.m. 

Presbytery met March 10th, 2 p.m., in the Second Presby- 
terian Church, Brooklyn, according to adjournment. 

The Committee having in charge the Talmage Inquiry, re- 
ported, recommending : 

First. — The adoption by Presbytery of a minute touching 
Dr. Talmage's method of preaching ; and, 

Secondly, as follows, viz. : It has been from the first the 
sincere and earnest desire of every member of your Commit- 
tee to find that the rumors charging Dr. Talmage with untruth- 
fulness, were of such a nature that we might be able conscien- 
tiously to rep v ort to the Presbytery that there was no need of 
further action in the case ; but as our investigation proceeded, 
we became convinced that the rumor specifying the sins of 
falsehood and deceit fulfills all the conditions of Chapter III, 
Section Y, of our Book of Discipline. 



3 



Having no judicial power, no authority to call witnesses, 
and no means of ascertaining the truth, we can, of course, ex- 
press no conviction as to the guilt or innocence of the accused. 

We believe that a full and impartial trial is clearly due to 
Dr. Talmage, to the Presbytery of Brooklyn, and to the honor 
of Christ. 

If Dr. Talmage be inuocent of the sins laid to his charge, 
we believe that the more thorough and searching the investi- 
gation is, the more brightly will the integrity of his character 
shine forth, and the more complete will be the vindication of 
the good name of our church, while the honor and influence 
of the Christian ministry will be enhanced. 

If, on the other hand, he be guilty, the purity of the church 
demands that the fact should be known. 

We, therefore, recommend that the Rev. T. D. W. Talmage, 
D.D., be cited for trial upon the following charge and speci- 
fications : 

The Charge. 

The Eev. T. D. W. Talmage, D.D., stands charged by com- 
mon fame with falsehood and deceit. 

Specification I — In that he acted deceitfully, and made state- 
ments that he knew to be false, in the matter of his withdrawal 
from the editorship of the Christian at Work, in the month of 
October, 1876. 

Specification II. — In that at various times he published, or 
allowed to be published, by those closely associated with him, 
without contradicting them, statements which he knew to be 
false, or calculated to give a false impression, in defense of his 
action and statements referred to in Specification I. 

Specification III — In that he repeatedly made public declara- 
tion in various and emphatic forms of speech from his pulpit, 
that the church of which he was pastor, was a free church, and 
that the sit tiugs were assigned without reference to the dollar 
question, although he knew such declaration to be false. 

Specification IF. — In that in the winter of 1876-7, he falsely 
accused I. W. Hathaway of dishonest practices and afterward 
denied that he had done so. 

Specification V. — In that in the early part of the year 1878, 
he endeavored to obtain false subscriptions toward the pay- 



4 



ment of the debt of the church, to be deceitfully used for the 
purpose of inducing others to subscribe. 

Specification VI. — In that in the year 1878, he acted and 
spoke deceitfully in reference to the matter of the re-engage- 
ment of the Organist of the Tabernacle Presbyterian Church. 

Specification VII. — In that he publicly declared on Sunday, 
February 2d, 1879, that all the newspapers said that he was to 
be arraigned for heterodoxy, and used other expressions cal 
culated to give the impression that he expected to be arraigned 
on that charge, although he knew that he would be arraigned, 
ii it all, on the charge of falsehood, thereby deceiving the 
people. 

(Signed,) 

ABTHUE CEOSBY, 
J. D. WELLS, 

a. McClelland, 
e. h. babcock, 

H. McDOUGALL.. 

Dated Brooklyn, March 10th, 1879. 
Witnesses : 

Specifications I and II — J. N. Hallock, E. Bemington, 
Henry Dickinson, E. W. Hawley, M. H. Bright, S. 
B. Leverich (also Specification IV), Eobt. Waugh, 
E. S. Doclge. 
Specification III — S. D. Morris. 

Ill, IV, V, VI— John F. Talmage, Thos E. 

Pearsall. 
Ill, IV, VI— Elbert Latham. 
Ill, VI— J. E. Morris. 

III, VI VII— Wm. M. Pierson. 

IV. — Fred. Baker, Eichard Ells, I. W. 
Hathaway, H. J. Van Dyke. 

IV, V, VI— E. S. Hobbs, Warren S. Sill- 
cocks, B. F. Cogswell. 

IV, VII— Chas. Nichols. 
V— Dan. Talmage. 

V, VII— Alex. Pearson. 
VII— A. Crosby, J. M. Greene. 

The report as a whole was accepted. 



5 



The first part of it was then laid on the table for the present, 
and the second part was taken up item by item. A motion 
was then made to adopt the charge. After various arguments, 
pro and con., the ayes and nays were called with the following 
result : 

Ayes — Butler, Cuyler, Crosby, Drake, Davison, Evans, Foote, 
Greene, Gilbert, Hall, Halsey, Hastings, Martin, McCuUagh, 
McClelland, Millard, Rockwell, Spear, St. John, A. Taylor, C. 
H. Taylor, Talmage, Yan Dyke, Wells, Peck, Williamson, 
Eaton, Morse, McDougall, Chamberlain, Sexton, Judsor 
French, Strong, Babcock, Earle, Bulkley— 37. 

Nays-^Neimder, Wood, Benedict, Pierson, Laimbeer — 5. 

A motion having been made to adopt Specification I, and 
prolonged discussion having followed, the previous question 
was called and put to the Presbytery with the following result 
the ayes and nays being called : 

Ayes — Cuyler, Crosby, Foote, Green, Gilbert, Hall, Halsey, 
McCullagh, McClelland, Rockwell, C. H. Taylor, Talmage, Yan 
Dyke, Wells, Eaton, Morse, McDougall, Chamberlain, Judson, 
French, Strong, Babcock, Bulkley — 23. 

Nays — Butler, Drake, Davison, Evans, Freeman, Hastings, 
Millard, ISeander, Spear, A. Taylor, Wood, Peck, Williamson, 
Pierson, Laimbeer, Sexton — 16, non Uq., St. John. 

The remaining Specifications, with the names of the wit- 
nesses, were then adopted, by a rising vote. 

The Committee were requested as a matter of convenience to 
Dr. Talmage, to arrange the several witnesses under the speci- 
fications they are expected to prove, so far as this might be 
possible. 

Presbvtery then adjourned. , ( 

(Signed) ' J. MILTON GREENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



Presbytery met on Tuesday, March 11th, 9 a.m. 

Committee on Talmage Inquiry presented a list of the wit- 
nesses, distributed according to their best judgment, under the 
specifications they are expected to prove. 

This list was ordered to be furnished to Dr. Talmage, with 
a copy of the charges and specifications, afc the close of this 
meeting. 



6 



Rev. A. Crosby and Eev. A. McCullagh were appointed a 
Prosecuting Committee on behalf of the Presbytery. 

It was ordered that au adjoin ned meeting be held on Mon- 
day, March 24th, at 3 o'clock, in the Second Church, that Dr. 
Talnmge be cited to appear for trial at that time, and that 
citations be issued to all witnesses named either by the pros- 
ecution or defence to be present on that occasion. 

Presbyteiy then adjourned. 

(Signed) J. MILTON GREENE, 

Stattd Clerk. 



Presbytery met March 24th, at 3 p.m., in the Second Pres- 
byterian Church, pursuant to adjournment. 

The State I Clerk announced that he had engaged a sten- 
ographer who would take a careful record of all the proceed- 
ings dining the trial, and would furnish two copies of the 
same, one for the Presbytery and one for Dr. Talmage, if he 
should so elect. 

The Moderator then announced that the Judicatory was 
about to pass to the consideration of the business assigned for 
trial, and enjoined upon the members to recollect and regard 
their high character as judges of a Court of Jesus Christ. 

The charge and specifications were then re;id to the Rev. 
Dr. '1 a mage, and he was called upon to plead to them. (See 
pages 3 and 4.) 

The Rev. Dr. Spear announced that, at Dr. Talmage's ur- 
gent request, he had recousidered his declination to serve as 
his counsel, and had decided to accept the service ; also that 
the Rev. B. F. Millard had been chosen as his associate, and 
would now read Dr. Talmage's answer to the charge. 

The answer was as follows, viz. : 
To the Presbytery of Brooklyn : 

Mr. Moderator, Fathers and Brethren : The undersigned 
hereby acknowledges the receipt of the citation ordered by 
the Presbytery on March lUth, l879, summoning him to ap- 
pear before the Presbytery on March 24th, 1879, to answer to 
the charge and the seven specifications therein contained ; and 
to the same he herein answers by declaring that he is not 
guilty of " falsehood and deceit" in the matters alleged against 



7 



him, and that he confidently expects to show the truth of the 
answer to the satisfaction of the Presbytery. 

The undersigned further says that although the Presbytery, 
in adopting the charge and specifications on the ground of 
general rumors, decided to put him on trial for the offenses 
set loith in specifications I., II., IV., and although he does not 
shrink from the fullest investigation of the accusations therein 
made, still he hereby distinctly denies the jurisdiction of the 
Presbytery to issue process and try him upon those accusa- 
tions, since such jurisdiction is, under the rules stated in the 
Book of Discipline, Chapter XL, Section V., expressly ex- 
cluded by the date of the offenses charged. 

The undersigned further says that specifications IL, III., 
IV., V., VI , do not conform to the rule in respect to the " time, 
places and circumstances of the alleged offenses," as stated in 
the Book of Discipline, Chapter IY., Section VIII., and hence 
have not given him the proper notice as to the acts constitut- 
ing the several offenses therein alleged. 

The undersigned further says that some of these sp9cifica- 
tions, as, for example, III., VII., are, upon their face and in 
their contents, not only trivial, but utterly impossible of 
proof, except by the actual confession of the party therein 
accused. These two specifications are impossible of proof, 
except by such confession, because they assume that some- 
body knows and can testify to what " he knew " and thought 
when, as alleged, he said the things charged against him as 
offensive. 

The undersigned still further says, that, in his judgment, 
the Presbytery made a very grave and serious mistake in 
the original declaration, which affirmed that he "is charged 
by common tame with falsehood and deceit," and in the repe- 
tition of that declaration on the 10th of March, 1879, in the 
following words : " The Bev. T. D. W. Talmage, D.D., stands 
charged by common fame with falsehood and deceit." The 
undersigned imputes no malice or evil intent to the Presbytery, 
or to any of its members, but regards the act, in its consequences, 
as a grave wrong to him as a member of the Presbytery, and as 
at least a temporary obstacle to his usefulness as a minister 
of Christ and pastor of one of the churches under the care of 



8 



Presbytery (see Book of Discipline, Chap. III., Sees. IV. and 
V.)- 

Mr. Moderator, Fathers and Brethren, the undersigned has 
thus responded to your citation, in all honesty and a good 
conscience before God, concerning the matter involved in the 
allegations upon which you Lave seen fit to arraign him at 
your bar. Sensible that he now stands before you as an 
accused party, and by no means indifferent to the fact itself, 
or to its possible results, he asks at your hands a "fair and 
impartial" trial. 

May the Great Head of the Church guide you in your ap- 
prehension of the evidence to be submitted to you, and also 
guard you against all improper bias and errors of judgment in 
drawing your conclusions therefrom. May He have your 
minds and hearts in His gracious keeping. Earnestly 
invoking in your behalf such wisdom as can be imparted only 
by the Infinite Source of all Wisdom and Purity, the under- 
signed now awaits your fuither order in respect to the present 
procedure. 

(Signed) T. De WITT TALMAGE. 

Dated Brooklyn, March 24th, 1879. 

A motion was then made by Dr. Spear that separate rulings 
be given on Specifications I., II. and IV., and that they be 
erased from the list and dismissed. First, because they are 
excluded by limitation of time ; and, secondly, because they 
do not specify with sufficient definiteness, times, places and cir- 
cumstances. 

Arguments were presented by the counsel on both sides 
and by other members of the body, after which the vote upon 
the exclusion of Specification I. was taken with the following 
result, the ayes and nays being called : 

Ayes — Drake, Davison, Evans, Freeman, A. Taylor, Wood, 
Peck, Williamson, Benedict, Neander, Laimbeer — 11. 

Nays — Butler, Cuyler, Callen, Foote, Greene, Gilbert, Hall, 
Halsey, Martin, McClelland, Nelson, Rockwell, St. John, Sher- 
wood, C. H. Taylor, Van Dyke, Wells, Bridges, Eaton, Morse, 
McDougail, Pierson, Chamberlain, Hazzard, Young, Thomas, 
Babcock, Bulkley, Neff— 29. 

The votes upon the two remaining Specifications were taken 



9 



by a simple division of the house, and resulted in the retain- 
ing of Specification II. by a vote of 25 to 12, and of Specifica- 
tion IY. by a vote of 27 to 13. 

It was ordered that Presbytery meet daily during the prog- 
ress of the trial at 3 p. m. and adjourn at 6. 
Presbytery then adjourned. 

(Signed) J. MILTON GREENE. 

Stated Clerk. 



Mabch 25th, 1879. 

Presbytery met March 25th, at 3 P. M., in the Second Church. 

Some discussion was had relative to the order to be observed 
by the prosecution in the introduction of witnesses, which 
ended in a pledge by the counsel that so far as possible 
they would take up the Specifications in the order in which 
they are recorded. 

The Moderator repeated his charge to the Judicatory to 
remember their high character and solemn duty as a Court of 
the Lord Jesus Christ. 

The counsel for the prosecution then presented the opening 
of the case. 

The following communication was received from six of the 
witnesses which had been regularly cited to appear : 

Brooklyn, March 22d, 1879. 

To the Brooklyn Presbytery : 

Reverend Sirs and Gentlemen, — We, the undersigned, beg 
to represent to your honorable body that our names have been 
unauthorizedly connected with the specifications accompanying 
certain charges made against the Rev. T. De Witt Talmage. 
By such presentation of our names we are placed in the false 
position of witnesses ready to testify, whereas, just the contrary 
is the fact ; your committee having been informed that we were 
unwilling to appear. 

We beg to remind your honorable body that our difficulties 
with the Brooklyn Tabernacle, in the main, grew out of ques- 
tions of finance, and as we felt there was unwarranted inter- 
ference with the Board of Trustees, by and with the consent 
of the Pastor, we withdrew from the church. Subsequently, 
and of quite recent occurrence, we have been forced by the law 
2 



10 



to appear against the Tabernacle in a suit, the result of which 
decided a question of financial obligation, on our part, to the 
church. Lest our action in such matters has been miscon- 
strued and misunderstood, we hereby wish to say in this con- 
nection that, notwithstanding the disagreements of the past, we 
cherish no unkindly feelings towards the Eev. Mr. Talmage. 

In view of the circumstances presented we trust the Presby- 
tery will deem it no disrespect when we positively decline to 
appear in response to its citation, as witnesses in the pending 
trial. 

Respectfully submitted, 

B. F. COGSWELL, 
WARREN S. SILLCOCKS, 
DANIEL TALMAGE, 
ALEXANDER PEARSON, 
ROBERT S. HOBBS, 
JOHN E. TALMAGE. 
The Stated Clerk was directed to issue second citations to 
each of the persons whose signatures were appended to the 
foregoing document to be present on Wednesday or Thursday 
of the present week. 

The first witness called was Mr. Robert Waugh, who being 
duly sworn, testified as follows : 
By Mr. Ceosby : 

Q. What is your business ? A. I am a printer, sir. 
Q. Were you ever connected with the Christian at Work in 
any way ? A. I was, sir. 

Q. What was your connection with that paper ? A. I was 
assistant foreman for four years, about. 

Q. What four years were they? A. From April 2d, 1873, 
until January 8th, 1876, or 1877, 1 forget which, exactly. 

Q. You were then in the employ of the Christian at Work 
Publishing Company when Dr. Talmage was editor of that 
paper ? A. I was. 

Q. Will you tell what occurred that came under your notice 
on the evening of October 9, 1876 ? 

Q. Were you in the office of the Christian at Work on the 
evening of October 9th, 1876 ? A. I was. 

Q. Did you see Dr. Talmage on that evening in the office of 
the Christian at Work ? A. Yes, sir. 



11 



Q. Will you please tell what occurred on the evening of 
October 9th, 1876 ? A. Do you mean during the entire even- 
ing ? 

Q. All that you can remember that came under your obser- 
vation ? A. It is customary for me to remain to lock up the 
forms, and see that the forms went to press correct, and on 
that evening about seven o'clock, I noticed Mr. Talmage come 
in through the printers' door ; I was notified by the foreman 
that he wished me to remain after the forms had went to press, 
and after that we went to tea, and after that the editorial was 
set up and inserted in the paper. 

Q. You say you saw Dr. Talmage come into the office about 
seven o'clock in the evening? 

Dr. Spear — I ask that the witness may repeat the answer as 
to what occurred that night ; I did not hear it myself ? A. 
What occurred that night ? 

The Moderator — Yes. A. It was customary for me to re- 
main until the forms were closed up and sent to press ; I was 
notified by the foreman that he wished me to remain after the 
forms had gone to press ; I did so ; I went to tea with him and 
returned, but before that, certainly about seven o'clock, I no- 
ticed Mr. Talmage come in ; I forgot to mention that before ; 
and we returned and the editorial was set up. 

Q. What did Mr. Talmage do ? A. I did not see what he 
done, sir. 

Q. You simply saw him come into the room ? A. I saw him 
come into the room, and saw him pass into the proof-reading 
room, and saw nothing more of him until he went out. 

Q. Did you see him in conference with any one ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. What occurred after you saw Mr. Talmage last ? A. 
The foreman followed him into the room, and that is all that 
I saw ; I could not see anything after that. 

Q. What was your experience after that? A. My expe- 
rience was to stay at the stone and lock up the form ; I had 
another man to help me. 

Q. Did you receive any further instructions ; what was the 
object of your remaining that evening? A. I did not know, 
sir, until after I returned, after supper. 



12 



Q, What occurred after supper ? A. The editorial in ques- 
tion — the valedictory — was then set up. 

Q. "What editorial ; what valedictory? A. The editorial of 
Mr. Talmage withdrawing from the Christian at Work, and his 
announcement of his accepting the editorship of the Advance. 

Q. Did yon see that editorial ? A. I saw the manuscript, 
but did not read it. 

Q. Did you read it afterwards ? A. I read it from the type 
after it had been set up. 

Q. Please look at that paper and see if this is the editorial 
that you read ? A. That is the editorial that I read, sir. 

Q. What is the paper, please ; the name and date ? A. The 
Christian at Work, New York, Thursday, October 12, 1876. 

Q. What is the advertisement that you spoke of ? A. I did 
not speak of any advertisement just now. 

Q. You said an editorial and an advertisement ? A. I did 
not say a word about advertising at all ; I simply said editorial ; 
it was the written announcement of his withdrawal from the 
Christian at Work and taking the editorship of the Advance. 

Q. That was set up in the office ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who set it up ? A. The foreman of the office. 

Q. What did you do? A. I stood by and looked at him. 

Q. Is that all you did that evening ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Please state what you did ? A. Under his instructions 
I went round with him to the press-room, and there, through 
his instructions, took out an editorial and placed this one in 
the place of the one taken out. 

Q. Is that all you did then ? A. All that I did then under 
his instructions. 

Q. State all you did ? A. I remained there until all the 
forms were locked up, and then I went home. 

Q. Did you put anything into the forms ? A. I put that 
editorial in. 

Q. Did you put anything else in ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What ? A. I put an advertisement in. 

Q. Is that the advertisement that I show you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Crosby here offered the editorial in evidence, as con- 
tained in The Christian at Work, of Thursday, October 12th, 
1876. It was admitted and read to the Presbytery, as follows 
(being marked Plaintiff's Exhibit A) : 



13 



" Good-bye, Old Friends. 
U I have accepted the position of Editor-in-Chief of The 
" Advance, which is hereafter to be published in New York as 
<' well as Chicago, transferring to that paper my sermons and 
" other literary work. My new headquarters will be 24 Park 
" place, New York. My connection with The Christian at Work 
" now ceases. 

" My hearty thanks to all the subscribers with whom I have 
" had years of pleasant interview. Happy myself, by the 
" grace of God and the influence of an ancestry who did not 
" believe there was any religion in moping, I have tried to 
" make all our readers happy. We leave our benediction for 
" our old friends, and ask their prayers for success in the wider 
" field we are about to enter. Let us all, with high hope, press 
" on toward the kingdom. This world never seemed so bright 
" or heaven so glorious as this afternoon. Good evening. 

"T. De WITT TALMAGE. 

" New York, Oct. 8, 1876." 

Mr. Ceosby — I would ask the other side if it is admitted 
that the date of the editorial, " October 8, 1876," is a mis- 
print. The events occurred on October 9th, according to the 
witness's account. 

Mr. Millard— We know nothing about it. We now object 
to the reading of the advertisement until Dr. Talmage has 
been connected with it. 

(Objection sustained.) 

Q. The advertisement, you say, you put in the forms ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. In what form did the advertisement come into your pos- 
session ? A. As an electrotype. 

Q. It was not in type then ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Was it a large advertisement ? A. It was a double 
column advertisement. 

Mr. Crosby here offered the advertisement in evidence, to 
show its size, promising to connect it with Dr. Talmage here- 
after. 

(The objection is sustained.) 

Q. What was the advertisement about ? A. I did not read 
the advertisement then. 



Q. Did you know what it was about ? A. I was told what 
it was about. 

Q. You did not read it at all ? A. Not at that time. 

Q. Did you read it after it came out in print ? A. I read it 
in the proof sheet. 

Objection overruled, and the advertisement is admitted, 
marked " Plaintiff's Exhibit B," and read : 

" Dk. Talmage' s Announcement. 

" Upon another page Eev. T. De Witt Talmage publishes his 
" valedictory to the readers of the Christian at Work, and an- 
" nounces the fact that he is to become Editor-in-Chief of the 
" Advance. With this important accession, together with the 
" enlargement of the New York Department, to embrace a full 
" corps of editors and business operators, the Advance enters 
" upon a new career as a National Family Newspaper. We need 
" not say to the readers of the Christian at Work that, while the 
" ordinary editorial utterances of the Advance will not be less 
" sprightly and pungent than its best in the past, our hope and 
" expectation is that under the new regime, its distinctly re- 
" ligious articles will glow with a warmer spirituality, a heartier 
" sympathy, and broader charity, than ever before. It is our 
" purpose also to give the paper a wider scope in all its dis- 
" cussions, facilitated by the editorial reinforcement as well as 
" by its new metropolitan advantages. It already circulates in 
" every State in the Union, but our plan will greatly multiply 
" the circulation in each of the States. Starting with a circu- 
" lation of 40,000 we propose, by its merits as a family news- 
" paper, having in its columns just what the people want, to 
" carry it up to 140,000 subscribers, and not by the use of 
" chromos or premiums of any sort. Among the few attrac- 
" tions we have the space to enumerate, are : 

" 1. A weekly sermon, by Dr. Talmage, such as thousands 
" of people in this country and Europe have learned to prize 
" and hail with pleasure wherever they may be found. 

" 2. A series of articles by 0. H. Spurgeon, the great London 
" preacher. 

" 3. Anecdotes and personal illustrations of successful lay 
" Christian work, by General O. O. Howard. 



15 



" 4. A series of articles on science and religion, by Rev. 
" Richard S. Stoma, D.D. 

" 5. Every one of the various departments of the Advance 
" which have hitherto secured for it a reputation as a wide- 
" awake journal, will continue to be well sustained. The 
" children's department, which has been deservedly popular 
" with all the young folks, will continue in charge of our 
" fascinating after-supper talker. We have only space to add 
" that Eev. Alfred Taylor, late of Christian at Work, is another 
" valuable reinforcement to our editorial corps, and C. P. 
" Conklin, late manager of advertising of the same paper, will 
" become our Eastern Advertising Manager. 

" We offer our journalistic " good cheer " to young and old, 
" in short, to all to whom this greeting may come, and we will 
" be especially happy if permitted to stimulate Christian 
" work on behalf of the oppressed and sin-burdened, or still 
" more, to carry a gospel word directly to those who are 
" hungering for it. 

" Teems. — Three dollars a year, in advance. Postage pre- 
" paid. Save fifty cents for yourself and fifty cents for a 
" friend, by getting him to join with you. For five dollars ($5) 
" in advance, two papers will be sent to two new subscribers. 
" Remit by postal order or bank draft on New York or Chicago, 
" drawn in the name of the publishers. No paper sent without 
" pay in advance. This is Advance business in every sense. 
" If you prefer, you can address the letter enclosing the sub- 
" scription to Rev. T. De Witt Talmage, 24 Park Place, New 
" York. Otherwise address 

" C. H. HOWARD & CO., 

" Publishers of the Advance, 
" 24 Park place, New York, and 
" 151 and 153 Fifth ave., Chicago, Ills." 

Q. How long w r ould it take to set up and electrotype such 
an advertisement as that ? A. It all depends upon the man 
that bad it in charge — setting it up. 

Q. What is the usual time that would be required ? A. If 
given to one man the usual time would be one to two hours to 
set it up ; it all depends upon the rapidity of the compositor. 
Q. How long would it take to get it electrotyped ? A. It 



16 



could be done in one hour, but it would not be strong enough 
for durability. 

Q. Do you recollect that kind — was it made in an hour ? A. 
I am not a sufficient judge to tell, unless I am told whether one 
was made in an hour or in two hours. 

Q. As a professional man, do you believe that that advertise- 
ment, that you set up — tbe electrotype — was made in an hour 
from tbe first beginning of it — the setting up and making the 
electrotype ? A. No, sir ; it could not be done ; it has to be in 
the battery about an hour to get an impression. 

Q. What is the shortest possible time in which you think 
that could be made and completed ? A. From the manuscript 
to the block turned out ? 

Q. Yes? A. As I said before, it depends upon the man that 
had it in charge ; he might divide it up between two compos- 
itors and thus shorten the time in setting it up, or he might 
give it entirely to one man, and it would generally take one 
ffiau from one to two hours to set it up ; it all depends upon 
how fast he can set type. 

Q. What is the shortest time in which you think that could 
be set up, and made from the time the manuscript was given 
until it was completed ? A. That might take about five hours, 
and probably not that long ; I think probably three hours. 

Q. You think it could be done in three hours ? A. It might 
possibly, if they had made special arrangements with the elec- 
trotype foundry men. 

Q. Have you ever known of a case where an advertisement, 
such as that, was made in three hours ? A. In my own expe- 
rience in sending forms to the electrotype foundry, I never re- 
ceived a form or a block in less than ten hours. 

Q. What was the ordinary time ? A. About ten hours ; for 
instance, I sent it away about nine o'clock and got the forms 
back about nine o'clock the next morning, and probably com- 
pleted in the afternoon. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Talin&ge as he passed into the room on 
the first occasion ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did he have anything ? A. I did not notice ; I did not 
see anything in his hands. 

Q. Who gave you the electrotype ? A. The foreman. 



17 



Q. Did you do anything further about this matter — did you 
communicate what you had seen to the proprietors of the pa- 
per ? A. No, sir. 

Q. What other reason then had you for not notifying the 
proprietors what you had seen? A. I did not know their 
address. 

Q. What other reason ? A. That is the only reason I have, 
sir. 

Q. Did you receive any other directions in regard to this 
paper that night ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you receive any further directions from the foreman 
at that time? A. I received no further directions from the 
foreman only what I have stated ; I was instructed to put the 
editorial in the paper and the advertisement, and then I was 
to go home. 

Q. Did you the next morning ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What were they ? A. My instruction was to place a copy 
upon the desk of the secretary and managing editor. 

Q. A copy of what ? A. A copy as it went to press before - 
it was altered. 

Q. Who was the foreman ? A. A gentleman named Mr. Cobb. 

Q. Who was Mr. Cobb ; do you know anything more about 
him than that he was foreman? A. No, sir. 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. After Dr. Talmage's departure from the room where you 
saw him enter after he had retired from the building altogether, 
where did the foreman, Mr. Cobb, invite you to go? A. He 
told me he wanted me to remain after the forms had gone to 
press, and to go to supper with him. 

Q. Was it customary for him, to ask you to take tea with 
him? A. No, sir. ' 

Q. Did he pay the bill ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When you came back what instructions did you receive 
from Mr. Cobb — tell the whole instructions you received there, 
and give an account of your interview with Cobb, what he told 
you and what you said to him after you returned from supper ? 
A. I cannot recollect all that was said. 

Q. Give the substance as much as you can remember ? 

Dr. Spear again objected unless Dr. Talmage was first con- 
3 



18, 



nected by the testimony with Mr. Cobb, and Mr. Millard added 
the objection that it was proving conversations not in the 
presence of the defendant. 

Mr. McCullagh stated that he wished to show that Dr. Tal- 
mage had private communications with Mr. Cobb, the foreman, 
in which he is supposed to have put into his hand that edito- 
rial and advertisement, and that after Dr. Talmage's with- 
drawal showing that this editorial and advertisement involved 
several hours of work. Mr. Cobb made certain statements to 
the witness in regard to the character of the editorial and what 
he thought of it, which aroused suspicion in the mind of the 
witness that the property of The Christian at Work was being 
tampered with. 

Considerable discussion ensued on this point, and the Mod- 
erator finally decided in favor of the defense. 

Mr. Crosby asked if the witness could not tell what he said 
to Mr. Cobb, to which Mr. Millard raised precisely the same 
objection, and the objection was sustained. 
Gross-examined by Dr. Spear : 

Q. How long did you see Dr. Talmage that night ? A. 
About five minutes. 

Q. And what time was it when you first saw him ? A. 
About seven o'clock. 

Q. Where '? A. I saw him coining through the printers' 
door ; I was standing at the imposing stone. 

Q. Where did he go ? A. Into the proof-room. 

Q. Was there anybody there, so far as you know, besides 
him ? A. No, 'sir. 

Q. For aught you know he w r as in there alone ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Did you see nim when he left ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. He was in there five minutes, and, so far as you know 7 , 
there was nobody else in there ? A. So far as I know, there 
was somebody in there that followed him in afterwards. 

Q. Was there anybody in there when he went in ? A. No, 
sir ; not to my knowledge. 

Q. Who went in afterwards ? A. Mr. Cobb. 

Q. He was there about five minutes, and what then ? A. 
He went out, and I saw no more of him that evening. 



19 



Q. You do not know that he had any connection whatever 
with that valedictory that evening, do you ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Or with this advertisement ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Not at all? No, sir. 

Q. You say this was an electrotype ? A. That was an 
electrotype. 

Q. You simply saw it as such ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know when it was manufactured ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You do not know but what it was manufactured ten 
years before ? A. It might possibly have been so. 

Q. For aught you know ? A. For aught I know. 

Q. Or the previous day ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Then all you know about this case is that Dr. Talmage 
came in there ; you saw him when he came in ; he was there 
about five minutes and went away ; and while he was in there, 
Mr. Cobb came in, and then afterwards you saw this electro- 
type, and you do not know when it was made, and did not 
even read it ; that is all you know about it ? A. That is not 
all that I have said. 

Q. What else? A. I know what instruction was given to 
me by Mr. Cobb ; that was stated here. 

Q. Did you know that that instruction came from Dr. 
Talmage? A. No, sir; all I got was instruction from Mr. 
Cobb, and nobody else. 
By Mr. Millakd : 

Q. One single question : you spoke of copies of the paper 
having been placed on the desk ; do you know that Dr. 
Talmage had anything to do with that ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you know that he knew of it? A. No, sir. 

Q. You say that an electrotype in your experience you have 
had one that did not take some ten hours to make ? A. I 
never had a form returned to me in less than ten hours from the 
i me I sent it away or corrected till the time it was returned. 

Q. I understoood you to say that if there was a division 
of labor, it could be done in three hours ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. This might have been done in three hours if divided up 
in that way ? A. Yes, sir. 



20 



liedirect-examination : 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. Did you ever know of an instance in which it was done 
in three hours ? A. No, sir. 

Q. What time did the officers of that paper ordinarily leave 
the office 

The Moderator — On the redirect-examination, the counsel 
will confine himself to the points raised on the cross-examina- 
tion. 

By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. You stated, I believe, to the counsel that you saw Dr. 
Talmage for about five minutes ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You did not see him while in the proof-room ? A. No, sir. 

Q. How long was he there ? A. About five minutes. 

Q. And you saw him for about five minutes? A. That is not 
what I said. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Did you see him in the proof-room five minutes ? A. 
No, sir ; I saw him go into the proof-room, and he came out 
in about five minutes. 

ROBERT J. WAUGH. 

The second witness called was Mr. E. Bemmington, who, be- 
ing duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Q. Were you ever connected with The Christian at Work ? 
A. I was. 

Q. Please state as far as you can your connection with it ; 
when it began and what it was ? A. My first connection was 
in the early history of the paper, while under the manage- 
ment of Mr. Adams ; I subscribed $1,000 to assist him, and 
subsequently added to it, making $10,000 interest in the paper. 

Q. Was Mr. Talmage editor any of the time while you were 
connected with the paper? A. He was subsequent to that. 

Q. From what year to what year ? A. His editorial connec- 
tion with the paper began in 1873, 

Q. When did it cease ? A. In October, 1876. 

Q. Was your connection with the paper about of the same 
nature during Mr. Talmage's editorship — I mean did your re- 
lation to the paper change as proprietor ? A. I was interested 
as a stockholder before and subsequently. 



21 



Q Did your interest increase ? A. It did. 

Q. To what extent did your financial interest in the paper 
increase ? A. In 1874 the paper company was reorganized, 
and I had $10,000 according to my present recollection. 

Q. After that did you ever increase your interest beyond 
that amount? A. I did. 

Q. About what amount? A. The total amount in stock is- 
sued to me was $30,000. 

Q. Then what was your relation to the paper ? A. I held 
then a controlling interest in the paper. 

Q. You became chief owner? A. In that sense in owning a 
principal amount of all the stock. 

Q. Will you please tell as full as you can what your rela- 
tions with Dr. Talmage were after you became the chief owner ; 
what were your personal relations, and in reference to your 
work ? A. Our personal relations were pleasant throughout, 
so far as I remember, until the close of his connection with 
the paper ; until the time of his leaving the paper. 

Q. Did anything ever occur between you and Dr. Talmage 
of an unpleasant nature ? A. Nothing to my recollection. 

Q. There was no collision between you ? A. None. 

Q. You were proprietor, that is chief proprietor of the 
paper ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you guide then the editorial management of the 
paper ? A. I did not. 

Q. Not in any degree whatever? A. No further than in 
two instances, possibly three, making some suggestions. 

Q. Were they points upon which you had a right to make 
suggestions ? A. I thought they were. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmnge ever complain to you as showing that 
your interference was disagreeable to him ? A. He did not. 

Q. Did he accept your suggestions ? A. He did ; I might 
modify that, however ; in one respect he did not ; in so far as 
the suggestions I made in reference to a certain matter which 
appeared in the paper he did acquiesce, but in regard to some 
suggestions I made in an interview I had with him with refer- 
ence to a modification of the editorial management of the pa- 
per he did not concur ; my suggestion in that regard was to 
make the paper something as it had been in its earlier history ; 



22 



being an undenominational history, that it should have editorial 
assistants who were representatives of different denomina- 
tions ; to that he objected, though there was nothing unpleas- 
ant in our interview. 

Q. Usually, however, when you had suggestions to offer, 
according to yonr statement, they were received kindly and 
pleasantly ? A. I had no such suggestions to offer except in 
two instances to my recollection, and they were received as 
you say, pleasantly ; at least so far as I had any intimation 
of his feeling with reference to it. 

Q. (Handing letter to witness) — Is that letter from Dr. 
Talmage? A. It is. 

Q. Will you look at the signature and identify it ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. What is the date ? A. May 17, 1875. 

The letter was here offered and admitted in evidence as in- 
dicating the relations that existed between Mr. Remington, as 
chief owner of the paper, and Mr. Talmage as its editor. 

Marked "Plaintiff's Exhibit C," and read as follows : 

Beooklyn, May 17, 1875. 

Dear Mr. Remington, — If the providential leadings are such 
that you can see your way clear to take the financial control 
of our paper, I shall be greatly rejoiced. I feel that we have 
lost several grand opportunities of advancing our subscription 
list, because we of the office do not see eye to eve on the great 
themes of evangelism and moral reform. If you could find the 
right man to take the publishing department (and I think you 
suggested him), we could put our paper in the position it 
ought to occupy. At present I feel that it must be somewhat an 
annoyance rather than a pleasure to you. If it were through- 
out, and throughout yours, it might be a great satisfaction to 
you. The way is clear before us under the right control. It 
should be the exact exponent of your own principles, which 
happen to be also my own. We are now an adjunct of the 
Christian Union, the paper of Oliver Johnson, the Spiritualist, 
freelover and Frothinghamite infidel. I feel we must cut loose 
from such influences, if we are to have the blessing of God. 
Nothing new has occurred, but I felt impressed to write this. 
I understand your numerous engagements and see how unde- 



23 



sirable it would be for you to take any worriment ; but I think 
if you had a publisher oi the right business and theological 
stamp, you might find the paper a satisfaction. If you write 
me at any time, address me at Brooklyn, New York. 

Yours, etc., 

T. De WITT TALMAGE. 

Q. (Handing another letter to the witness.) Identify that 
letter, please ; what is the date ? A. August 8th, 1875. 

Q. Is it addressed to you by Dr. Talmage ? A. It is. 

The letter of August 8th, 1875, is admitted in evidence, 
marked " Plaintiff's Exhibit D," and read to the jury, as follows : 
" East Hampton, L. I., August 8th, 1875. 

"Dear Mr. Eemington, — Was glad to receive your dis- 
cussion of Christian at Work affairs. I think with you that 
Mr. Hawley had better have temporary charge of our paper. 
We cannot well select a publisher until Mr. King is entirely 
out. Newspaper business needs to be done with closed doors, 
and we cannot afford to have our plans telegraphed to other 
newspaper offices. Mr. Hawley, however, I do not think has 
the elements of a successful publisher. He has none of the 
push, self-reliance, power of origination and enthusiasm 
which seem to me indispensable for that post ; while no man 
could be better qualified for the position he now occupies than 
he is. I have never seen anything accomplished without 
enthusiasm. That is an element which our office sadly lacks. 
Mr. Adams had enthusiasm, but no ballast. When we can 
find zeal and prudence combined we shall have the right kind 
of publisher. Have not seen Mr. Corwin about this matter 
since. Indeed, I do not know that he could be had. Mr. 
Hallock, the present publisher of the Liberal Christian, called 
to see me a few days ago. I have known him for a long time. 
1 believe he has all the elements of a successful publisher. 
He is an evangelical man ; has been connected with the Liberal 
Christian merely as a business man, not believing in it. He 
wants to leave, has money, would take his pay in percentages 
instead of a regular salary, and strikes me so favorably I would 
say we cannot do better, unless we can get Major Corwin v 
Hallock thinks, as I think, that our mistake has been too big 
salaries. There is not a bookkeeper in a religious newspaper 



24 



office that gets more than $1,500. Advertising man never gets 
regular salary, but is dependent on percentages. (Mr. Hallock 
has had long experience.) I think that until we get right side 
up that Mr. Hawley ought to have not more than $2,000 (the 
same as Adams gave him). Mr. Bright $2,500 (the amount at 
which I first engaged him), the publisher taking a percentage. 
All this until our affairs are adjusted. The larger the salary 
given to these men the better it would please me ; but we can- 
not, in our straightened circumstances, afford to be exception- 
ally and unprecedentedly liberal. As to our managing editor. 
Those items and paragraphs which were discordant with the 
sentiments of temperance and higher life people were as disa- 
greeable to me as to them. I feel somewhat responsible for 
them. I am accustomed to take a taste of everything before 
it goes into the paper, although, of course, I cannot read every- 
thing through. Since I have been summering at East Hamp- 
ton I have been particularly unfortunate in getting letters, so 
that things have sometimes gone in that I would not have 
admitted ; among them some of those things you refer to. I 
shall put on more vigilance in this matter, so that we shall 
have no more of these unfortunate slips. 

" Mr. Bright, as you realize, has great talents. He differs 
from most newspaper men who have worn off their vivacity 
and dropped into hopeless humdrum. I do not know of any 
one to take his place. However the future will develop I am 
more and more confident that we shall, in all the affairs of our 
paper, be divinely directed. My own mind points toward 
Hallock or Corwin, but not so decidedly that I could not 
change it in a moment if something better appears. If in the 
next few days we commend this whole matter to God we shall 
not be left in doubt. We cannot now afford to make a mistake, 
nor will we. " If any man lack wisdom let him ask of God, who 
giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be 
given him." 

Yours, etc., 

T. De WITT TALMAGE." 

Q. Can you state anything further which will illustrate your 
relations with Mr. Talmage ; we find here, from this letter, that 
you had made suggestions ; that he answers suggestions of 



25 



yours in regard to certain paragraphs which appeared ; you 
have spoken of your interview ; is there anything else that you 
think of ? A. These are, according to my present recollection, 
the only suggestions. 

Q. You never found fault with him in regard to anything 
else ? A. Not at all, so far as I remember. 

Q. Did you ever find fault with the conduct of the paper, as 
carried on by him ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Not in regard to any other particular ? A. With refer- 
ence to the editorial part ? 

Q. With reference to the management of the paper and what 
appeared in it ? A. I may sometimes have criticized some of 
the editorials in some respects among my friends as not 

Q. But did you find fault in regard to anything which ap- 
peared in the newspaper which was under Dr. Talmage's edi- 
torial management — to him ? A. I did not. 

Q. Did you find fault with the management — giving the in- 
structions which were to reach him ? A. I did not. 

Q. In regard to no other particulars ? A. In no other par- 
ticulars ; in no respect whatever. 

Q. These that you have spoken of were along in 1875 ; these 
two letters have been introduced May, 1875, and August 8th, 
1875 ; before Dr. Talmage withdrew from the paper, there was 
no other subject, you say, upon which you criticised his man- 
agement ? A. There may have been one other ; I may have 
written one other letter, referring to some paragraphs appear- 
ing in the paper which I thought calculated to give offense to 
friends of the paper, but do not distinctly recollect with refer- 
ence to that ; I have no distinct recollection with the exception 
of the one referred to in the letter which you have in your 
hand. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage ever offer to serve the paper for noth- 
ing? A. He did, under a certain contingency. 

Q. What were the conditions ? A. It was when he was 
urging Major Corwin as publisher — that I should engage him 
as publisher of the paper ; he said, in the company of a num- 
ber of those interested in the paper as stockholders and Trus- 
tees, that if Mr. Corwin did not make the paper a success, he 
would serve the paper a year for nothing. 
4 



26 



Q. Was he ever called upon to serve the paper for nothing ? 
A. I don't know that he was distinctly asked to do that. 

Q. Were the conditions upon which he made that fulfilled ? 
A. They were not. 

Q. You have stated, I believe, that he promised to serve the 
paper for nothing for a year if Mr. Corwin's management 
should prove a failure ? A. He did. 

Q. Was that condition fulfilled? A. It was not. 

Q. Mr. Corwin's management did not prove a failure ? A. 
I misunderstood the question ; the condition upon which the 
promise was made by Dr. Talmage was not fulfilled. 

Q. Do you mean that Mr. Corwin's management of the paper 
was not a failure ? A. Was not a success. 

Q. The condition being if Mr. Corwin's management was a 
failure ? A. I nnderstand now ; the condition was fulfilled. 

Q. Did you address a note to Dr. Talmage on the 13th of 
October, 1876 ? A. I believe I did ; I am not positive as to 
the date ; I wrote to him about that time. 

(Mr. Crosby here called upon the other side to produce this 
letter, referred to of October 13th.) 

(Mr. Millard objected, that it must first be shown that the 
letter was written at that time.) 

Q. You don't know whether you addressed a letter to Dr. 
Talmage on October 13, 1876 ? 

(Mr. Millard again objected to the question as leading.) 

A. I don't remember distinctly. 

Q. Did you address a note to Dr. Talmage in the fall of 
1876 ? A. I did. 

Q. After he withdrew ? A. I did. 

Q. About what time in the month ? A. It was very shortly 
after his withdrawal. 

Q. What was the date of his withdrawal ? A. The 9th of 
October. 

Mr. Ckosby — Is not that near enough ; I now ask if Dr. 
Talmage has a note received from Mr. Eemington, about the 
time specified by the witness ? 

Mr. Speak — The prosecution is not competent except by vio- 
lating, it seems to me, a very clear law of common sense, to 
ask that question ; it is not the duty of the defense to furnish 
the prosecution with the means of prosecution. 



27 



Mr. Crosby — I believe we are always expected to ask for the 
best evidence in regard to anything that we wish to show ; if 
we cannot have the best evidence, we can have the second 
best ; that is if the original letter can be produced on request 
then we can show a copy. 

Mr. Moderator — The point is I think in order. 

Mr. Crosby — I request from the defendant the production 
of that letter. 

Mr. Moderator — Did you give notice to the defendant, and 
request as prosecutor for it ? 
Mr. Crosby — I did. 
Mr. Moderator — How long since ? 

Mr. Crosby— I don't know ; I think it was last week ; the 
middle of the week. 

Mr. Moderator — That is long enough time for him to pro- 
duce it in. 

Mr. Millard — All we have to say is, that we know of no 
such letter, and we could not produce it ; there may have been 
such a letter mailed, and not reach us ; Mr. Talmage is ready 
to testify, but does not remember of any such letter. 

Q. How did you send that letter ? A. Sent it by messenger, 
from the office of the Christian at Work, with special instruc- 
tions to deliver it to Dr. Talmage if at home, or if not, to some 
one who might receive it at his house. 

Q. Can you state the contents of that letter ? 

Mr. Millard — Now it appears that they have better evi- 
dence ; if they sent it by messenger, he must be here and bring 
it home to Dr. Talmage. 

Mr. Moderator — The point is well taken I think ; and then 
on his refusal you can produce secondary evidence. 

Q. Have you any reason to believe that he received it ? A. 
I have ; he was questioned after his return at the office. 

Q. The messenger ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you question him — 

(Objected to, as wholly irrelevant, because it was not in the 
presence of Mr. Talmage.) 

Q. Do you know the messenger ? A. I do not ; he was a lad 
employed in the office at that time. 

Q. Is he employed in the office at this time ? A. I do not 
know. 



28 



Q. Do you know what his name was? A. I do not. 

Q. You did know at the time ? A. I did not know his 
name ; he was employed in the office ; if I did, I have forgot- 
ten it. 

Q. Could you identify the boy now ? A. I could not. 

Mr. Crosby again called for the letter, and after discussion, 
the Moderator decided that the letter must be proved to have 
been in the possession of Mr. Tannage ; that could be proved 
either by directly tracing it through the boy, or by proving 
certain actions of Dr. Talmage which grew out of the receipt 
of that letter, which proved the receipt of the letter. 

Q. After you sent that letter, in the way in which you have 
desciibed, what did you do, did you receive any reply to that 
letter? A. I did not, 

Q. What did you do then ? A. After waiting a reasonable 
time, I published in the World a copy of the letter, or substan- 
tially "a copy of the letter. 

Q. Please identify this paper ? A. It is the World of Mon- 
day, October 23d, 1876. 

Q. You published the substance of the letter that you had 
sent before, in the World of that date? A. I did. 

Q. Did it appear in any other newspapers? A. I am not 
aware whether it did or not ; I do not remember. 

Mr. Crosby at this point offered the open letter in evi- 
dence. 

Mr. Millard objected on the ground that what Mr. Eeming- 
ton might chose to publish could not affect Mr. Talmage in 
any way. 

The Witness — It was published in the New York World, I 
may say, especially, because in that paper appeared an article 
headed " Dr. Talmage's Defense," which was an article fur- 
nished by a reporter of the World who interviewed Dr. Tal- 
mage. I sent the letter to the World because in that paper 
this article to which I have referred appeared. 

Dr. Spear — We deny explicitly that Dr. Talmage ever saw 
that article in the World, and challenge the production of evi- 
dence that brings it home to him. 

(Objection sustained.) 



29 



Q. Did you ever receive a letter from Dr. Talmage saying 
that lie would positively leave the paper in the fall of 1876 ? 

(Objected to as leading ; objection sustained.) 

Q. Were you in the habit of receiving letters from Dr. Tal- 
mage ? 

Dr. Speak— I insist that this matter shall be done rightly. 
Let him ask this question as to matter of correspondence be- 
tween him and Dr. Talmage in general — something that barely 
suggests the idea, and let the witness, from his memory, 
without the aid of counsel supply the occurence. 

Q. Were you in the habit of having correspondence with Dr. 
Talmage ? A. Occasionally. 

Q. What were the general subjects of that correspondence ? 
A. Belaying to the paper generally, and after a certain time 
with reference to the sale of the paper — the disposition of the 
paper. 

Q. Can you state anything that you remember ; just state all 
you remember about your correspondence with Dr. Talmage ? 
A. His letters to me ? 

Q. Yes ; and your letters to him. 

Mr. Millard — Do you mean what the letters contain ? 

Mr. Crosby — No ; what passed between them generally? A. 
It is impossible for me to remember aside from the letters 
which have been read ; he wrote to me once with reference to 
a certain party who might be induced to purchase the paper. 

Q. Have you that letter ? A. I have not. 

Q. Do you think it is in existence or can be produced ? A. I 
think not. 

Q. Will you state the contents of that letter, as nearly as 
you can ? 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. Have you made any search ? A. I have, sir. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. Where did you search ? A. I searched through all of 
my papers and letters where I could hope or expect to find it ; 
not that letter I mean to say especially, but any correspond- 
ence. 

Q. You fully believe that letter is not in existence? A. I 
do. " 



30 



Q. Can you state the contents more definitely now of the 
correspondence, the letters that you have not, and which you 
believe are not in existence ? A. I have no distinct recollec- 
tion of the contents of letters I have received from him ; the 
letter referred to mentioned a gentleman from Chicago, I 
think — a friend of Dr. Talmage's — whom he thought might be 
induced to purchase the paper if an offer was made sufficiently 
liberal, or low. 

Q. Do you remember the date of that letter ? A. I do not. 

Q. Can you approximate it ? A. I cannot with any distinct- 
ness ; it was in the summer or early fall of 1876, I think. 

Q. Did anything further pass between you in regard to the 
sale of the paper — Dr. T aim age himself — his friends — any- 
thing ? A. In meeting Dr. Talmage from time to time in the 
office, the question was discussed of disposing of the paper, 
also at his house, sometimes. 

Q. Do you remember any further letters in regard to that; 
you have only mentioned one letter so far relating to the sale 
of the paper — that in which some gentleman from Chicago 
proposed to buy it ; did you ever have any other correspond- 
ence with Dr. Talmage on the subject of the sale of the 
paper? A. I don't remember that I did. 

Q. Do you remember any other subjects on which Dr. Tal- 
mage wrote you — the general subjects? A. I don't recollect 
distinctly the contents. 

Q. Did you receive a letter from Dr. Talmage, dated Mon- 
treal? A. I did. 

Q. Can you state the contents of that letter ? 
By Mr. Millard (interrupting) : 

Q. Is that lost also, Mr. Kemington ? A. I think it is. 

Q. Have you looked for that particularly ? A. The letter 
was addressed to me as President of the company, shortly be- 
fore our annual meeting, and was left in the office of the com- 
pany. 

Q. Have you looked particularly with that letter in view ? 
A. I made no search in the office. 

.Q. Have you lost all of Dr. Talmage's letters ? 

Mr. Crosby — We have produced two already, and are will- 
ing to produce all the letters we can. 



31 



By the Moderator : 

Q. Will the witness state that he has made full search, so 
far as he is able, for all letters from Dr. Talmage ? A. I have; 
I might say at my home ; I have not made search in the office, 
for I have not had to do with the office, and did not know 
where to look. 

Mr. Crosby— If" the letter is in existence, and can be found 
by any of the officers of the company, I promise to produce it. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. Did you keep any of your letters in the office ? A. 
None in the office of the Christian at Work. 
Mr. Crosby : 

Q.'Now, will you please state, as near as you can, the sub- 
stance of that letter from Montreal ? A. It was substantially 
to this effect — that he had an offer from some other paper of 
a larger salary than we were paying him, and unless we could 
pay him a salaiy of $5,000 it would be necessary for him to 
leave the Christian at Work and engage with this larger paper. 

Q. About what date was that letter that you received from 
Montreal, as near as you can fix it ? A. It was in the early 
spring. 

Q. What year? A. Of 1876. 

Q. Did you reply to that letter ? A. I did not. 

Q. Did Mr. Talmage then withdraw from the paper at that 
time ? A. He did not. 

Q. Did you pay him the $5,000 salary that he asked ? A. 
We did not. 

Q. On what salary did he remain ? A. He continued, I 
believe, until the first of June to draw $4,000 salary ; from 
the first of June thereafter $1,500. 

Q. Did you offer him inducements to remain? A. I did 
not. 

Q. Did you not urge him to remain in the paper as editor ? 
A. I did not. 

Q. Did you do anything to interfere with his withdrawing 
from the paper ? A. I did not, any further than to assent to 
a certain arrangement made between him and Mr. Dickinson 
with reference to his remaining. 

Q. Did you keep him from putting in his valedictory that 
spring ? A. I did not. 



32 



Q. Did you ever try to sell the paper without the knowl- 
edge or consent of the joint owners ? A. I ^lid not. 

Q. Was Mr. Talinage one of the joint owners? A. He was ; 
I may say right here that the inquiries with reference to pur- 
chasing the paper that came to me were referred to the treas- 
urer and secretary for such information as they desired with 
reference to the position of the paper — with reference to its 
value. 

Pending the examination of Mr. Remington, Presbytery ad- 
journed. 

J. MILTON GBEENE, 

Stated Cleric. 

March 26th, 1879. 

Presbytery met March 26th, 1879, at 3 P.M. 

The examination of Mr. E. Remington was then resumed as 
follows : 
By Mr. Crosby: 

Q. Did you ever write to Dr. Talmage, taking cognizance of 
his decision to leave in the fall of 1876, and offering him in- 
ducements to remain ? A. I did not. 

Q. Nothing to that effect ? A. Nothing to that effect, so far 
as I have any recollection. 

Q. What did you have to say to him in regard to his vale- 
dictory? A. I said to him, in an interview that we had, that 
unless he could be satisfied with a much larger salary which I 
practically was paying myself individually 

Q. With a much larger salary? A. With a much smaller 
salary — that he might as well write his valedictory. 

Q. Was anything further said at that interview ? A. The 
difficulties and embarrassments of the paper were spoken of in 
a general way ; in that interview I reminded Dr. Talmage of 
the fact that the burden upon me had been increased by ac- 
cepting his advice and recommendation with reference to 
securing Mr. Corwin as publisher, with the assurance which he 
gave us in connection with that encouragement. 

Q. Can you give the date of this interview ? A. I don't 
remember definitely ; I think it was in the spring or summer. 

Q. That is as near as you can come to it ? A. It was in 



33 



1876 ; I said to Dr. Talinage that lie had not been able to en- 
list any of his personal friends to assist in bearing the burdens 
of the paper, as I had hoped he might do, and that I could 
not, as I was situated, continue to sustain these expenses my- 
self personally alone. 

Q. It was, then, to urge him to take a reduced salary in 
order to decrease the expenses of the paper ? A. It was. 

Q. Had you any fact in your possession which led you to 
suppose that Dr. Talmage did not intend to withdraw from the 
paper in the fall of 1876 ? A. I had. 

Q. What was that fact ; just state all that occurred in re- 
gard to that ? A. The publisher whom we had engaged at 
Dr. Talmage's suggestion had made, shortly prior to his leav- 
ing the paper, or attempted to make, a five } 7 ears' lease. 

(Objected to, on the ground that the publisher is not to be 
tried here.) 

Mr. Crosby proposes to show the fact, as the publisher was ' 
one of the employees of the Christian at Work company, and 
the relation of the company and its employees as they relate 
also to Dr. Talmage, must necessarily be understood, if any- 
thing is to be known about the case. 

(Objection overruled.) 

Q. The question was as to any facts in your possession that 
led you in the spring or fall of 1876 to think and believe that 
Mr. Talmage did not intend to leave the Christian at Work 1 ? 
A. I don't think of any other facts ; there was nothing com- 
municated to me by him that led me to think that he proposed 
to leave. 

Mr. McCullagh — Will the witness be kind enough to con- 
tinue that part of his answer about the contract for five 
years? A. An arrangement was made or attempted to be 
made, by Mr. Corwin, the publisher, shortly before 

(Objection is again interposed by Mr. Millard on the ground 
that Mr. Talmage cannot be be held responsible for what Mr. 
Corwin did ; objection overruled.) 

A. He attempted to make a lease for five years, the prem- 
ises to be occupied for the publication of the paper. 

Q. When was that? A. That was very shortly before 

5 



34 



Q. What part of the year and what year ? A. It was in the 
spring, I think, of 1876. 

Q. Was there any fact afterward that came into your pos- 
session that led you to suppose that Mr. Talmage did not in- 
tend to leave that fall ? A. Nothing that occurs to me now. 

Q. Did you get any intimation from any source that he 
might leave ? A. I did. 

(Objected to as incompetent.) 

Mr. Crosby offers to prove that Mr. Kemington not only had no 
knowledge that Mr. Talmage intended to leave, but he had rea- 
sons to believe that he did not intend to leave ; the prosecu- 
tion cannot possibly get at the true character of Dr. Talmage's 
withdrawal from the paper unless they bring out what were 
the sentiments of the Christian at Work Publishing Company 
in regard to Dr. Talmage's staying and his withdrawal. 

The Moderator — Whatever led the witness rightfully to 
believe that Dr. Talmage was bound to remain a certain time 
in the Christian at Work is proper evidence now in order to 
find out if Dr. Talmage acted deceitfully. 

The Witness — I may say if it is pertinent to the question, 
that I received from Mr. Dickinson a circular prepared to be 
issued with reference to the business of the paper — the secur- 
ing of subscriptions —in which Dr. Talmage's name was men- 
tioned ; I wrote him reporting what Dr. Talmage had written 
from Montreal some months previous ; that it might be 
well for him to see Dr. Talmage and ascertain what his 
views or wishes were with reference to remaining with the 
paper, that we might not be advertising him as the editor of 
the paper with the possibility of being unable to fulfil the 
pledges made in that direction ; Mr. Dickinson wrote me in 
reply to the suggestions I made to him that he had waited 
upon Dr. Talmage, and that Dr. Talmage had no change to 
suggest, or words to that effect. 

Q. Do you remember about the date when you received 
that letter from Mr. Dickinson ? A. I think it was in the 
early fall in September. 

Mr. Crosby offers in evidence, and proposes to question the 
witness upon a report of an interview with Dr. Talmage, in the 



35 



New York World of Thursday, October 12, 1876 ; Eagh, Octo- 
ber 14 ; Tribune, October 17. 

(Objection was raised to this evidence as hearsay, and as a 
gross injustice to the defendant). 

The Moderator sustained the objection, and an appeal was 
taken, the ayes and noes being taken with the following result : 

Ayes — J. Milton Greene, Samuel P. Halsey, Adam McClel- 
land, J. E. Kockwell, H. J. Yan Dyke, I. W. Hathaway, L. K, 
Foote, Eaton, Morse, Bulkley, Young, Thomas, Hazard — 13. 

Noes — Baldwin, Bridges, Cuyler, Callen, Drake, Davison, 
Evans, Gilbert, Jones, Martin, Neander, St. John, Wells, 
"Wood, Benedict, Peck, Williamson, McDougall, Pierson, Bab- 
cock, Laimbeer — 21. 

Dr. Van Dyke — Will you allow me to say, sir, that as under 
your ruling an appeal cannot be debated, which is perfectly 
correct, I w r as shut out from the privilege of giving my reasons 
for sustaining the appeal, and now give you notice that I will 
enter protest against the decision of the Presbytery and file a 
notice of complaint, which will embody my reasons, to-morrow 
morning. 

Q. Was the indebtedness of the company increased or 
diminished under the editorial management of Dr. Talmage ? 
A. It was very largely increased. 

Q. Did you ever confer with Dr. Talmage about the selling 
of the paper ? A. I have. 

Q. Did you, as far as you are able, make him aware that 
you desired to sell out the paper ? A. I did. 

Q. Did you ever confer with Dr. Talmage in reference to 
selling the paper to any individual ? A. I did. 

Q. Tell, please, about it? A. By invitation of Dr. Talmage 
I called at his house one evening to meet not one individual, 
as the invitation read ; it was to meet certain gentlemen who 
might be induced to purchase the paper ; no name was men- 
tioned, or names ; I went to Dr. Talmage's house in accord- 
ance with the invitation, and there met Mr. Hallock ; Dr. Tal- 
mage excused the absence of other parties, who, I understood, 
were expected to be present ; no one was present at the inter- 
view but Mr. Hallock. 

Q. What occurred at that interview ? A. The question was 



36 



generally discussed with reference to tlis sale of the paper, its 
value, and whether he would be willing to accept such price as 
was mentioned. 

Q. Mentioned by whom ? A. Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Did he propose to buy the paper at that interview ? A. 
He did not ; he asked the question whether a certain price 
would be regarded by me as a suitable and sufficient price in 
substance. 

Q. What did Mr. Hallock have to say at that interview, so 
far as you can remember ? A. I do not remember distinctly 
with reference to what Mr. Hallock said, except that in a gen- 
eral way he thought if we could agree upon terms the paper 
might be sold ; parties would, himself or others, purchase it. 

Q. Can you locate the time of that interview ? A. It was 
in the month of March, I believe, as near as I can remember ; 
the day I do not recollect ; 1876, according to my recollection. 

Q. Do you feel confident about that being the month? A. I 
do not feel confident any further than it is my impression that 
it was March. 

Q. If it was not in March, was it near that time ? A. I 
think it was very near ; it possibly may have been in April ; 
it was not earlier, I think, than March. 

Q. You have stated here, I believe, that Mr. , I think it 

is in evidence that Mr. Corwin withdrew from the publishing 
department the last of March, To refresh the witnesses mem- 
ory, I thought he might gather it from that. Mr. Corwin with- 
drew from publishing the last of March. 

Dr. Spear — It is not in evidence. 

Q. Was it before or after Mr. Corwin's withdrawal ? Was 
there anything about the circumstances to fix the date at Dr. 
Talmage's house ? A. Not definitely in my mind ; I could 
not say positively whether it was before or after Mr. Corwin's 
withdrawal. 

> Q- About that time? A. It was somewhere about that 
time. 

Q. Did Mr. Hallock purchase the paper at that time ? A. 
He did not. 

Q. Did he ever purchase it ? A. He did. 

Q. How long after that did he purchase it ? A. In October ; 



37 



I may say, in that connection, that he visited me at my home, 
in the month of September I believe, with a view of consum- 
mating the negotiation for the purchase of the paper, if we 
could agree upon terms. 

Q. Were you talking with other parties also about selling 
the paper ? A. I was. 

Q, There were negotiations going on about selling the 
paper? There were. 

Q. What was the day upon which the paper was sold to 
Mr. Hallock ? A. The sale was consummated on the 12th of 
October. 

Q. What year? A. 1876. 

Q. Was there a legal sale before that date ? A. There was 
not ; it was merely a personal arrangement or understanding 
between myself and Mr. Hallock. 

Q. Could you have legally sold the paper without the con- 
sent of the trustees? A. I could not, and did not desire to. 

Q. When was the consent of the trustees given ? A. Either 
on the day that the sale was consummated, or immediately 
preceding ; I do not recollect whether on the very day of the 
sale, or whether the action of the trustees confirming the sale 
was immediately preceding that day ; either on that day or 
just before, I could not say ; the minutes of the meeting would 
indicate that definitely. 

Q. Had you not reason to suppose that the sale of the paper 
to Mr. Hallock would be displeasing to Dr. Talmage ? A. I 
had not, but on the other hand I had good reason to suppose 
it would be entirely acceptable to him, from the fact, first, that 
he had invited me to this conference, in which Mr. Hallock 
was the only one present, with the view of effecting a sale of 
the paper ; from the fact subsequently that he wrote to me, 
endorsing Mr. Hallock as an experienced publisher, a man of 
evangelical principles, well adapted to make the paper a suc- 
cess. 

Q. Was the arrangement with Mr. Hallock made with refer- 
ence to Dr. Talmage's continuance as editor ? A. It was not ; 
Mr. Hallock expected that Dr. Talmage would remain, but I 
asked him a question 

(Objected to as being an interview between third parties.) 



38 



Mr. Crosby— I think it comes under your ruling showing 
the circumstances about the case. We cannot tell what the 
character of his conduct was, unless we know all about that 
sale of the paper. 

(Objection overruled for the present.) 

The Moderator — In your own estimate, Mr. Crosby, do you 
promise to briug this home to Dr. Talmage ? 

Mr. Crosby — It has in substance been brought home. 

Dr. Spear — The point I make is whether these negotiations 
pending between this witness and Mr. Hallock, in regard to 
the sale of the paper, which were practically consummated 
before the 12th, whether these transactions were carried home 
to Dr. Talmage? 

Mr. Crosby — We intend to bring them directly home to Dr. 
Talmage. 

Dr. Spear — To his knowledge of the fact of it at that 
time ? 

Mr. Crosby — Not of that special fact, but the knowledge of 
the negotiations. 

The Moderator— The Moderator will take the liberty of 
asking a question of the witness. 

Q. Was that negotiation made on the assumption that Dr. 
Talmage knew of it, and was to become a party ? A. The 
assumption on my part ? 

Q. On the part of both of you, was that implied ? A. It 
was. 

Q. And Dr. Talmage understood it? A. It was implied in 
the conversation between me and Mr. Hallock that he expected 
to retain Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage understand this ? 

The Witness— I think Mr. Hallock mentioned to me, in the 
course of the conversation, that he had been in conversation 
with the doctor. 

(Objection was again interposed to the proof, on the ground 
that it must first be brought home to the knowledge of the 
defendant.) 

Q. Did you attempt in any way whatever to sell Mr. Tal- 
mage's services with the paper ? A. I did not ; I very dis- 
tinctly asked Mr. Hallock whether the consummation of the 



39 



sale would be dependent upon Dr. Talmage's consent to remain 
with it editorially. 

The witness was again stopped with an objection, and after 
some discussion it was overruled. 

Q. Could you have sold his services ? A. I could not. 

Q. For how long was he engaged ? A. The arrangement 
then existing was subject to termination on thirty days' notice. 

£j. Was there any purpose on your part to keep the negotia- 
tions with Mr. Hallock a secret from Dr. Talmage ? A. There 
was not. 

Q. Was the sale to Hallock in any sense a surreptitious one ? 
A. It was not. 

Q. Did you receive from Dr. Talmage a letter giving notice 
of his intention to withdraw from the editorship of the paper ? 
A. I did. 

(Dr. Spear again interposed an objection to the testimony on 
the ground of its being leading.) 

Q. When did you receive that letter? A. I received it after 
my return home, subsequently to Mr. Talmage's withdrawal 
from the paper. 

Q. Do you remember the date when you received it? A. I 
think it was about between the 15th and 17th of October ; I 
don't remember definitely. 

Q. Is that the letter as you received it ? (Handing letter to 
witness.) A. That is the letter. 

Q. Is that the envelope in which it came ? A. It is. 

Q. You testify to that ? A. I do. 

Q. What is the postmark on the envelope? A. " New York, 
Oct. 9th, 12 p. m." 

The letter was admitted in evidence, and read as follows, 
marked " Plaintiff's Exhibit E :" 

Brooklyn, Oct. 5, 1876. 

E. Eemington, Esq. : 

Dear Sir — I take this opportunity of respectfully informing 
you that my relations with the Christian at Work will cease 
one month from to-day. 

Yours, etc., 

T. De WITT TALMAGE. 

Cross-examined by Dr. Spear : 
Q. I want to make a general apology to you in the outset, 



40 



Mr. Remington ; it is not my practice to bulldose men at all, 
but I am very earnest in my addresses to men, and if I should 
speak strongly to you at any time, don't think it discourtesy 
at all, for I do not intend it in that way ; now, where do you 
live ? A. Illion, New York. 

Q. Are you a member of any Church ? A. I am. 

Q. What ? A. The Methodist Church. 

Q. What is the distance of Illion from Brooklyn ? A. I 
don't know certain the precise distance. 
Q. About what ? A. I suppose — 

Q. A couple of hundred miles? A. Somewhere between 
two and three hundred miles, I suppose. 

Q. When did you leave home to come to Brooklyn and 
when did you arrive here ? A. At what time do you mean? 

Q. Yes. A. In connection with this action ? 

Q. Yes, this action ? A. I left home last Wednesday even- 
ing. 

Q. Yon came directly to Brooklyn, -did you? A. I came 
directly to New York and Brooklyn. 

Q. Had you received a citation at the time before you came 
here ? A. I had. 

Q. Asking you to attend this trial ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who pays your expenses incidental to your coming here 
and during your stay ? A. I pay my own expenses. 

Q. Excuse me for asking the question ; now, had you any 
conversation or correspondence with the Rev. Mr. Crosby prior 
to the commencement of these proceedings against Dr. Tal- 
mage, and if so, who commenced such conversation and cor- 
respondence ? A. Before I came ? 

Q. Had you any correspondence or conversation with Mr. 
Crosby, before these proceedings were commenced, at all 
about this subject ? A. I received a letter from Mr. Crosby. 

Q. When was that ? A. I do not remember the date dis- 
tinctly ; it was while this matter was pending before the Pres- 
bytery. 

Q. My question is whether you had any correspondence or 
conversation with Mr. Crosby before this Presbytery had act- 
ed on the subject at all? A. I think it was not, according to 
my recollection, until after the Presbytery had taken astion. 



41 



Q. Can you fix the date of it — within a week ? A. I cannot, 
from my recollection. 

Q. The nearest approach you can make to it ? A. I did not 
charge my mind with it, and I cannot remember within a 
week. 

Q. Did you write to him first ? A. I did not. 
Q. He wrote to you ? A. He did. 
Q. And you answered him ? A. I did. 
Q. Will you tell this body the contents of these letters? 
(Objected to, if the letter is in existence.) 
Q. Have you the letter with you? A. I have not; I have 
it at home. 

Mr. Ceosby — I prefer to have that letter produced before 
the contents are stated. 

Q. Was there more than one letter ? A. Yes, sir ; a second 
letter. 

Q. From Mr. Crosby to you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When was that? A. That was several weeks after the 
first was received, but I do not remember distinctly. 

Q. Have you had any conversation or correspondence with 
any other members of the Presbytery prior to the commence- 
ment of these proceedings, at any time? A. Any other mem- 
ber of the Presbytery ? 

Q. Yes, sir ; have you spoken to any of them on the subject, 
or written to them? A. Alter coming to the city? 

Q. No, sir ; before any thing was done by the Presbytery, had 
you, at any time, spoken or written to any other members of 
this body ? A. No, sir. 

Q. At no time ? A. At no time, so far as I have an'}' recol- 
lection. 

Q. Are you positive on that subject ? A. I am, to the best 
of my recollection ; I do not know whether I am acquainted 
with all the members of the Presbytery ; will you repeat the 
question again. 

Q. My inquiry is, whether at any cime prior to the com 
mencement of these proceedings by the Presbytery, you had 
any conversation with any other member of the body, or cor- 
respondence with any other member of the body, except the 
Rev. Mr. Crosby ? A. In reference to the proceedings ? 
6 



42 



Q. With reference to Dr. Talmage, I mean? A. I do not 
remember that I had. 

Q. D^l the committee appointed by the Presbytery to inves- 
tigate into the nature and extent of this "common fame" after 
the Presbytery, see you or write to you ? A. The committee ? 

Q. You know what committee I am referring to? I do not 
know as I do. 

Q. There was a committee appointed by this Presbytery to 
inquire into the nature and the extent of the " common fame" 
charging Mr. Talmage with falsehood and conceit, consisting 
of five gentlemen — I beg your pardon — charging Mr. Talmage 
with falsehood and deceit — did any member of that committee 
either see you or correspond with you, or did the committee 
correspond with you ? A. Will you give me the names of the 
committee ? 

(The clerk read the names.) 

A. The only person from whom I received any letter or had 
any correspondence with on that committee was Mr. Crosby. 

Q, Will the clerk tell the witness when that committee was 
appointed ? 

Mr. Greene : The 3d of February. 

Q. These two letters that you have received from Mr. 
Crosby, to which you responded— were they written subse- 
quent to the 3d of February, according to your best recollec- 
tion ? A. I think they were, both of them. 

Q. Have you had any interviews with the Prosecuting Com- 
mittee since you came to this City ? A. I met Mr. Crosby. 

Q. The other gentleman associated with him ? A. T'or a 
few moments. 

Q. Have you at any time told them in detail the testimony 
that you expected to give when placed upon the stand? A. I 
have not ; I answered such questions as were asked of me by 
Mr. Crosby. 

Q. Written questions at the^time, or was it a miscellaneous 
conversation? A. It was a general conversation; I am not 
sure, but I think Mr. Crosby had a memoranda book in which 
he had certain questions written. 

Q. Have you had more than one such interview with him? 
A. Not with reference particularly to the testimony. 



43 



Q. When did you have it ? A. It was in the office occupied 
by He Dry Dickinson. 

Q. In New York ? A. In New York. 

Q. He came there to find you ? A. I met him there by ap- 
pointment. 

Q. You had seen him, then, previously ? A. I had not. 

Q. Did be write to you ? A. He telegraphed to me with 
reference to meeting him at a certain time and place. 

Q. Was the Rev. Mr. McCullagh present at the time, or was 
Mr. Crosby alone ? A. Mr. Crosby was alone. 

Q. And you have given to Mr. Crosby a detailed statement 
of the case ? A. Not a detailed statement ; I answered cer- 
tain questions, with reference to certain matters pertaining to 
the case, but not a detailed statement. 

Q. Have you been in the habit, Mr. Remington, since Dr. 
Talm age's retirement from the Christian at Work, of speaking 
of him disparagingly, wdienever you spoke of him ; just the 
fact ; that is all I want ? A. I said very plainly 

Q. I just want my question answered ; have you been in the 
habit of speaking disparagingly of Mr. Talmage since his re- 
tirement from the Christian at Work? A. If it should be con- 
strued as speaking disparagingly to say that I considered Mr. 
Talmage did me, and those associated with me in connection 
with the paper, a great wrong, I have so spoken. 

Q. You have been in the habit of saying that, have you ? 
A. Whenever there was occasion to say it. 

Q. How often? A. I don't know, sir. 

Q. To whom have you said it? A. I cannot tell you. 

Q. Has it been a frequent practice with you? A. Not fre- 
quent ; it has been a practice only when those matters were 
called to my attention, or the question was raised. 

Q. Have you spoken thus to ministers in New York City ? 
A. I may have done so ; I do not remember particularly with 
reference to that ; I think I have done so in a few instances. 

Q. Do you limit the instances to few ; what do you mean 
by few — two or three times ? A. I clo not remember but one, 
just at the moment, although I may have spoken to others. 

Q. Who is that party? A. My friend, Rev. Dr. Parker. 

Q. Any other ? A. I do not recollect any other at the mo- 
ment. 



Q. Have you a dislike to Dr. Talinage, or do you think well 
of him as a man and a minister? A. To your first question I 
answer, that I have no dislike ; if 1 rightly interpret the mean- 
ing of that word ; a dislike in the sense that we have any feel- 
ing of bitterness or malice towards him. 

Q. No, I am not charging you with anything ; I simply want 
the question to be answered ; is your state of mind one of 
moral dislike towards Mr. Talmage? A. It is, in view of the 
acts done by him ? 

Q. When did that begin ? A. It begun at the time of his 
withdrawal from the paper, and in connection with the manner 
of his withdrawal. 

Q. Has continued since ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And whenever you have spoken of the subject, you have 
spoken in that strain; you have given expression to that state 
of mind ? A. I have, but at the same time I have said frankly 
that I cherished no ill will or malice towards him. 

Q. Soon after Dr. Talmage's retirement from the Christian 
at Work, the 9th of October, 1876, did you seek or have any 
personal interview with Dr. Talmage ? A. Soon after his with- 
drawal ? 

Q. Yes ; the next day or day after ; within a week or a brief 
period ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Way didn't you ; you thought he had perpetrated a 
great wrong upon you ; why didn't you go and see him? A. I 
thought the wrong and the manner in which it was done re- 
lieved me from any occasion of visiting him. 

Q. He was a professed Christian, was he not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you were another ; what is the law of the Bible on 
that subject ; what was the state of mind that prevented you 
from going and seeing Dr. Talmage if you thought he had 
perpetrated a great wrong? A. The very natural feeling that 
I did not wish to come in contact with Dr. Talmage after the 
act which he had committed in withdrawing from the paper 
as he did ; it may not have been exactly in accordance with 
Scripture, bat it was exactly in accordance with my feelings at 
that time. 

Q. Have you at any time since that period sought or had 
any interview with Dr. Talmage in respect to the matter of his 
retirement from the Christian at Work ? A. I have not. 



45 



Q. You have neither sought it nor had it? A. I have not. 

Q. Were you desirous, before Dr. Talmage's retirement that 
he should remain as editor of the Christian at Work? A. I 
was desirous that he should remain. 

Q. Was it your desire that he should remain ? A. It was, if 
it could be upon conditions mutually satisfactory. 

Q. Were there any pending questions, as between you and 
him, upon which it would be agreeable to you to h ive him re- 
main, and, if not settled thus and so, it would not be agree- 
able ? A. No, sir ; there was only the question of compensa- 
tion or salary. 

Q. Did you regard Dr. Talmage's retirement from the paper 
an injury to you and to it? A. At the time he did withdraw? 

Q. Yes. A. I regarded it as calculated to work injury both 
to me and to the paper. 

Q. Did you make any attempt, directly or indirectly, to se- 
cure his return to the paper ? A. I did not. 

Q. Did you make any efforts to sell the paper prior to his 
leaving? A I did. 

Q. And without his knowledge ? A. I made inquiries of 
various parties ; that is parties desiring to purchase were re- 
ferred to the office for information in regard to the paper and 
value. 

Q. The next question I am going to put to you with care ; 
did you, before the leaving of Dr. Talmage try to get any other 
minister or ministers to take hold of the paper or assume any 
financial relations to it ; and if so, did you make the fact 
known to Dr. Talmage prior to his leaving ? A. I do not re- 
member that any effort was made to secure 

Q. (Interrupting.) Did you speak of the subject ; was there 
any conference with parties having that end in view, and did 
you bring home to the mind of Dr. Talmage the fact that you 
were doing that? A. I do not remember that any arrange- 
ment was made, or that the attempt was made to secure the 
services of any one to take Dr. Talmage's place. 

Q. No, no; without the knowledge of Dr. Talmage; I do 
not want to put the question in an offensive manner; I would 
use the word surfeptilious or clandestine, if they icere not inele- 
gant ; did you secretly — unbeknown to Mr. Talmage — at any 



46 



time prior to his leaving, seek to interest some other mink ter 
or ministers in this paper— that they should hold some finan- 
cial relations to it; did you secretly do that without his 
knowledge? A. (Alter a pause) I am endeavoring to recollect 
the circumstances in connection with it. 

Q. Take your own t'me for answer? A. There was an in- 
terview had with Dr. Taylor with reference to taking a posi- 
tion upon the paper. 

Q. And prior to the leaving of Dr. Talmage ? A. I think it 
was in the event that Dr. Talmnge should leave. 

Q. Did you make Dr. Talmage cognizant of that? A. I 
think not. ^ 

Q. Did you then expect that Dr. Talmage would remain? 
A. I did. ' 

Q. Then why did you put in that contingency, " in the event 
that he should leave," it you expected him to remain? A. For 
I was not certain that he would remain, but supposed that he 
might. 

Q. Is that the only case in which, through you or any of 
the managers of that paper, to your knowledge, and with your 
consent and acquiescence it was sought to bring in some other 
minister or ministers into financial relations with the paper, 
without the knowledge of Dr. Talmage? A. It is; so far as I 
remember. 

Q. Did any party or parties examine the condition of the 
paper financially, &c, with a view to its purchase about that 
time? A. There were parties. 

Q. Was that by your consent ? A. It was. 

Q. Did you communicate to Dr. Talmage that fact? A. I 
did not communicate to him the fact, but it was understood by 
him and by all interested in the company, that w T e were to 
effect a sale of it if possible. 

Q. My question to you is this : Did any party or parties ex- 
amine the condition of the paper with reference to the question 
of selling it? A. In several cases ; they were referred to the 
officers of the company. 

Q. Did you bring that fact home to the mind of Dr. Tal- 
mage, that you were doing so ? A. One of the cases in ques- 
tion was referred to me by Dr. Talmage; I referred him as I 
did others to the officers of the company for information. 



47 



Q. Was Dr. Talmage a stockholder of the Christian at Work 
as well as editor ? A. He was. 

Q. What was the amount of the whole stock of the com- 
pany — the aggregate — not his share, but the aggregate amount 
of the entire stock ? A. $l0,000. 

Q. What was jour amount? A. One half of that — the half 
that was paid for ; $40,000 of stock was issued, but $20,000 
only was paid in. 

Q. Will you, according to your best recollection, state the 
names of }our prominent employees, in the office during the 
summer of 1876- the office of the Christian at Work? A. Mr. 
Hawley, Secretary ; Mr. Bright, the Managing Editor ; Mr. 
Oorwin, acting as publisher at that time ; Mr. Conklin, I be- 
lieve, was connected with the advertising — or some such name ; 
T was not familiar myself with it ; I didn't have to do with 
these employees. 

Q. Any other names? A. I think Alfred Taylor was em- 
ployed in some capacity in connection with the paper. 

Q. Go on ; that is not the man I am after yet? A. In the 
mechanical department I don't remember the names — in the 
printing department or composing room. 

Q. I would prefer that the witness should exhaust his mem- 
ory before I go on ? A. In what department of the paper? 

Q. What was your business; your own private business at 
this time ? A. Manufacturer. 

Q. Of what? A. Of fire arms, agricultural implements, 
sewing machines, etc. 

Q. Will you name your employees there ? A. I should be 
unable to without referring to our books : we have a pretty 
extf nsive list of them. 

• Q. Had you in your employment a man by the name of Al- 
ford? A. There? 
. Q. Yes, sir. A. No, sir. 

Q. Anywhere? A. Mr. Alford was employed in our store 
here in the City. 

Q. In New York ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. He was in your employ ? A. He was. 

What was his relation to you ; what business, what de- 
partment did he follow ? 



48 



Q. Now what was the relation of this Mr. Alford — what was 
his full name ? A. Alonzo Alford. 

Q. What was his relation? A. He was a salesman. 

Q. Was he a man with whom you talked familiarly and freely 
about your business matters ? A. Yes., sir. 

Q. And about the paper ; was he rather your confidential 
man than otherwise? A. I talked with him confidentially with 
reference to the paper. 

Q. Did you request the Eev. Mr. Taylor, prior to the leav- 
ing of Dr. Talmage to find a purchaser for the paper? A. I 
may have done so ; I have no recollection of making such a 
request. 

Q. Refresh you memory so as to see as distinctly as you 
can ? A. There was an especial desire on my part to find a 
purchaser, and I may have made such a request of him ; but 
I have no recollection at this time of making a request. 

Q. Were there any efforts by you or under your authority in 
progress for the sale of the p;iper, or any talk about it between 
you and other parties, or parties acting under your authority, 
on the 9th of October, 187(5 ? A. What day of the week ? 

Q. I am not able to fix the day. 

Mr. Crosby — The day on which Dr. Talmage put the edi- 
torial and advertisement in the paper at night- 
Mr. McCullagh — On Monday the 9th. 
A. There was not. 

Q. Were no negotiations pending on that day? A. No, I 
■considered the sale had substantially been made with Mr. Hal- 
lo L'k, to be confirmed legally by the action of the Board of 
Trustees. 

Q. Had you any conversation with the parties in the office 
of the Christian at Work on that day? A. I don't remember 
that I had. 

Q. Do you recollect distinctly whether it was or was not so ? 
A. I don't recollect it. 

Q. Notice this question : Did you at any time during the 
summer of 187G, or did any of the Board of Managers of the 
paper with your knowledge and consent and without the 
knowledge of Dr. Talmage, by correspondence or conversation 
propose to any other minister or ministers to connect himself 



49 



or themselves with the paper in an editorial relatiou ; did you 
do it yourself, or did any of the managers of the paper do it, 
in the summer of 1876, either by conversation or correspond- 
ence, with any other minister or ministers ? A. I think Mr. 
Bright as managing editor may have spoken to Dr. Taylor 
with reference to assuming some editorial relation to the 
paper. 

Q. Do you know of any letters having been written on that 
subject to any minister or ministers during that summer ? A. 
I do not. 

Q. It never came to your knowledge that it was done at all ? 
A. No, sir; so far as I recollect. 

Q. Did you advertise that paper for sale ? A. An advertise- 
ment was published by Mr. Alford with my consent, in view of 
securing a purchaser. 

Q. You directed him to advertise the paper for sale ? A. 
He suggested it and I assented to it. 

Q. What is the man's name that you assented to ? A. Mr. 
Alford. 

Q. Where was that advertisement published ? A. I don't 
remember ; I think it was in several of the daily papers. 

Q. Do you recollect none of them ? A. I think it was in all 
of tlie leading daily papers of the City. 

Q. Do you know whether it was in the New York Herald or 
not? A. I do not, positively. 

Q. On what month was it ? A. I don't remember the month. 

Q. Is that the advertisement, on which my pencil marks 
have been drawn ; (handing witness a newspaper) ? A. It is. 

The advertisement is offered in evidence, admitted, and read 
by Mr. Millard, as follows : 

" For Sale. — An evangelical religious weekly paper, having 
a large subscription list and advertising patronage, together 
with the good will and the appurtenances. Apply to princi- 
pals only. A. L. Kord, Box 3,01)4, Post OSce." 

(The paper is dated July 13th, 1376, marked Plaintiff's Ex- 
hibit F.) 

Q. You authorized that advertisement or an advertisement? 
A. I did not see the advertisement; I authorized the adver- 
7 



50 



tisement without having seen the copy of the advertisement — 
without knowing the nature of it. 

Q. How did you identify that as the advertisement ? A. I 

saw it subsequently. 

Q. You saw it after it was published ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That is the one ? A. Yes, sir ; I did not see the copy 
before it was published. 

Q. What was the reason of calling it a religious weekly and 
concealing the name of the Christian at Work ? A. I do not 
know what reasons might have existed in Mr. Alford's mind. 

Q. In your mind ? A. There was none, because I had no 
knowledge of the nature of the advertisement until after it had 
been published. 

Q. Was the advertisement continued after you knew of it ? 
A. I do not remember whether it was or not. 

Q. Did you make any correction so that the phrase " re- 
ligious newspaper " should be relieved of its generality and 
make it apply to the Christian at Work? A. No, sir. 

Q. But you let it stand a religious weekly ? A. I saw no 
objection to that. 

Q. You saw it ? A. I did see it. 

Q. You saw the name A. L. Ford was a fraud? A. I saw 

it was a disguise for his own name. 

Q. You saw that it was a fraud ? A. I did not see it in that 
character at all. 

Q. You saw those two letters, the first two were so printed 
as if they were each one the initial of other names; now what 
was the object of this disguise so far as you then thought ? 
A. The only purpose I had, the only purpose I suppose he had, 
was simply because he did not wish to be known as operating. 

Q. But he was not proprietor of the paper ; he was merely 
your agent, your employee ; did you see that advertisement 
before it was put in the paper ? A. I did not. 

Q. Did you see the advertisement before it was put in the 
paper ? A. I did not. 

Q. How soon afterwards did you see it? A. I do not re- 
member ; Mr. Alford sent me a copy of it shortly afterwards. 

Q. You saw the matter of it ? A. I did. 

Q. You saw it was not the Christian at Work, but a religious 



51 



paper, which might apply to any other paper as well ; you saw 
that name there, didn't you? A. I did. 

Q. Was that a true name or a false name ? A. It was not 
his true name. 

Q. It was a false name ? A. It was a disguised name. 

Q. I want to get a direct answer to the question ; was that 
name a false name ? A. If it was a false name it was not 
made with any purpose or design to injure any one in connec- 
tion with the paper. 

Q. I am not asking you that; excuse me, I do not wish to 
insult you; you can read? A. I can. 

Q. You read that, didn't you ? x\. Yes, sir. 

Q. As you read that, you knew that was a false name, didn't 
you? 

(Here a discussion arose as to what the witness had really 
said, and the stenographer read the questions and answers 
preceding.) 

Q. I will take off the word fraud ; was it a false name ? A. 
It was a false name with no intention of fraud. 

Q. So we say in regard to my friend Dr. Talmage, that all 
the alleged misstatements are not traceable to his mind as fraud 
or imputed wrong ; we don't impute any wrong to you ; I 
simply want to know if, with your knowledge and consent, an 
advertisement for the sale of that paper, disguising the title of 
the paper and the name of the seller was published — if the 
name was false? A. The name was false or disguised. 

Q. Why did you disguise it ? A. I did not do it. 

Q. Why did you consent to the continuance of the disguise ? 
A. Because I felt that no person would be injured by it ; it 
was a matter of no consequence if only we could get hold of 
some one who desired to purchase the paper ; the name of the 
paper not being mentioned seemed to me perfectly proper, be- 
cause of the fact that such a paper was offered for sale should 
be known it might injure the paper. 

Q. Was it necessary to disguise the name of the seller in 
order to disguise the paper ? A. It was not. 

Q. Why was it done then ? A. I do not know what motive 
Mr. Alford had. 

Q. Why did you allow it to continue ? A. Because I sup- 
posed no harm could come of it to any one. 



52 



Q. It was an innocent disguise, was it ? A. An innocent de- 
ception if it was a deception. 

Pending the cross-examination of this witness the hour of 
adjournment arrived. 

(Signed) J. MILTON GREENE, 

Stated Clerk 

Maech 27th, 1879. 

Presbytery met March 27th, 1879, at 3 P. M. 

The Eev. fl. J. Van Dyke, R D., presented the following 
protest, which was received and ordered to be placed upon 
the record : 

" The undersigned respectfully protests against the decision 
of the Moderator and the action of the Presbytery sustaining 
that decision, excluding from the testimony in this case certain 
reports of interviews with Dr. Talmage in reference to his 
withdrawal from the editorship of the Chris ian at Work, pub- 
lished in the .\ ew York World of October 3 2th, 1 876, the Brook- 
lyn Eagle of October 14, 1876, and the New York Tribune of 
October 17th, 1876. 

He is impelled to make this protest and fully record his reasons 
therefor by the fact that in deciding tiiis particular question, 
the Moderator authoritatively announced for the future gov- 
ernment of this trial principles which, in the judgment of the 
undersigned, are unconstitutional and dangerous to the purity 
and peace of the Church. The decision being rendered with- 
out any opportunity lor the expression of opinion on the part 
of the members of Presbytery, and the appeal from that de- 
cision being put, according to rule, without debate, the under- 
signed is shut up to this method of exonerating his con- 
science in the premises: 

I. — The first ground of protest is the principle announced 
by the Moderator, yiz.: that in the trial of this case this 
Presbytery is bound by the English law of evidence, as 
recognized and enforced in our secular courts under the com- 
mon and statutory law. In the judgment of the undersigned 
this principle is unconstitutional and impracticable. 

(1.) Because this so-called law of evidence is vague and 
indefinite. It is not written in any statute. It is not ex- 
pounded by any recognized authority. It is only a matter 



65 



of inference from trie practice of our secular courts under the 
common law, as that practice is variously modified in differ- 
ent countries and in different States of our country by stat- 
ute law. 

The decisions of judges are various and contradictory. The 
practice in one court differs from that of another. Sir James 
Stevens, whose Digest is in high repute, declares that until 
very recently the practice was different even in the different 
circuits of England. So that the application of the principle 
in question would require on the part of Presbytery and es- 
pecially on the part of its Moderator, an amount of legal infor- 
mation which they cannot reasonably be required to possess, 
and which in fact they do not possess. 

(2.) Because the so-called law of evidence is substantially 
the creation of successive generations of judges in the courts 
of common law. It was made by judges for juries, and the 
fact serves to explain many of its peculiarities. It is largely 
founded upon the distrust of judges in regard to the capacity 
of the jury to weigh the value and credibility of testimony. 

To apply a law which has grown up under such conditions 
to a judicatory of the church, and to put its exposition into 
the hands of the Moderator, who is not necessarily better 
qualified to sift evidence, or to enforce the practice of secular 
courts, than the other members, is in the judgment of the 
undersigned a manifest absurdity. 

(3.) Because the jurisdiction of a judicatory of the church 
is so different from that of a secular court that the rules of 
evidence in the former must necessarily be less rigid than in 
the latter. A secular court can only try men for acts ; whereas 
an " offence " according to the definition of our Book of 
Discipline is " anything in the principles or practice of a church 
member, which is contrary to the word of God." (Chapt. I., 
Sect. III.) 

The case now on trial before this Presbytery could not be 
tried before any secular court, and therefore the practices of 
such courts furnish no safe precedents for our guidance. 

(4.) Because the impartial application of the principle in 
question to the defence will deprive the accused of one of his 
most valuable constitutional rights. 



54 



The Book of Discipline, Chap. IV., Sect. XV., explicitly de- 
clares that the accused "shall be permitted to ask any ques- 
tions tending to his own exculpation." Now, we know there 
may be many questions tending to the exculpation of the ac- 
cused, which would be ruled out by the practice of our secular 
courts. Every lawyer and every one familiar with the pro- 
ceedings in courts of law knows that there are cases where 
probable evidence amounting to the highest moral certainty is 
excluded by technical rules to the preservation of law, and at 
the same time to the sacrifice of equity. The undersigned 
prot< sts against any principle, the application of which might 
put this Presbytery before God, and the church in any such 
attitude. 

(5.) Because the whole history of our church shows, thet so 
far as our Book of Discipline is conformed to the anal gy of 
any law and from the Scripture-, that analogy is found not in 
the statute, or the common law, but in the civil law as em- 
bodied in the Justinian Code. This Presbytery is not a mere 
couit of law, but a Court of Equity, this is not a trial by jury, 
but a trial before a bench of judges, every one of whom has an 
equal competency to judge of both the law and the evidence. 

II. — The sec >nd ground of protest, is the avowed design for 
which the documents above described were offered. 

The genuineness of the reports of the interviews wihh Dr. 
Talmage was not insisted upon at this stage of the trial. But 
their publication at the tiin?, was presented as a fact, which 
needed no proof to show the circumstances under which cer- 
tain conduct of Dr. Talmage had taken place, in order to enable 
the Presbytery to comply with Chap. L, Sec. V., of the Book of 
Discipline, which requires ns " to take into view all the circum- 
stances which may give a different character to conduct and 
render it more or less offensive." 

III. — The fact that three reports of interviews with Dr. Tal- 
mage were published within one week under editorial sanction 
in three respectable newspapers, and that these reports, w r hile 
agreeing in their meaning, differ in their language — creates 
what in legal phrase is called " a violent presumption " of their 
genuineness sufficient to throw the burden of proof on the party 
whose interest it may be to deny it. In the absence of primary 
evidence, the production of which it is not within the limited 



55 



powers of this Presbytery to compel, that " violated presump- 
tion " was sufficient, in the judgment of the undersigned, to 
warrant the submission of the documents to the judgment of 
the Presbytery. Such a course could have wrought no possible 
injury to the accused. He is here present, and has full liberty 
and opportunity to deny their correctness. Indeed, if those 
published reports are not correct, and if they contain anything 
to his disadvantage in this trial, whether they are formally ad- 
mitted evidence or not, he is bound by every principle of truth 
and righteousness to give his brethren the benefit of such 
denial, if he can honestly make it. 

IV. — A fourth ground of protest is the bearing of the decision 
upon questions collateral to this trial, and yet vital to a just de- 
cision of the case. Secular courts, which have power to com- 
pel the attendance of witnesses, may very properly require 
primary evidence in every case where it exists. But this 
Presbytery has no authority to compel testimony beyond its 
right to censure contumacious members of our own churches. 
Now, if the decision against which the undersigned protests is 
correct, then it is in the power of the accused, or of any mem- 
ber of this Presbytery, through a reporter or an editor of a 
newspaper who is not subject to our ecclesiastical control, to 
malign the Presbytery or members thereof, with a view to in- 
fluence the decision of this case, and yet it is not in the power 
of the Presbytery to redress or even to take cognizance of the 
wrong doing. A principle or a precedent which leads legiti- 
mately to such a conclusion must be erroneous. 

Y. — Finally, the undei signed protests against the decision re- 
ferred to, because, as he believes, it will give occasion in the 
public mind for the suspicion that the technicalities of the law 
of evidence and the ingenuity of professional counsel are being 
employed to obstruct a thorough investigation of facts in this 
case. 

(Signed) HENRY J. VAN DYKE. 

The presentation of the complaint, of which notice was given 
yesterday, was held in reserve until the close of the trial. 

The witness, Mr. E. Beminjton,was then recalled, and at his 
own request was permitted to correct his testimony of yester- 
day: 



56 



Mr. Eemington— The question was asked with reference to 
our asking or set king the services of some other minister if I 
remember it rightly. 

Dr. Spear— In the cross-examination do you mean? A. 
Yes, sir ; to occupy the position of editor of the paper— the 
Christian at Work', when the question was propounded I had 
in mind the fact of Dr. Taylor's assuming the position of 
editor after Dr. Talmage's withdrawal, and also an interview 
that was had some months before in the spring with Dr. 
Taylor 

Dr. Spear (Interrupting) — A proper courtesy is due to the 
witness. I suggest that the specific question and answer given 
should be called to his attention. Let us have the exact an- 
swer. 

Mr. Crosby— It is on page 87. 

" Q. The next question I am going to put to you with care ; did 
" you, before the leaving of Dr. Talmage try to get another 
" minister or ministers to take hold of the paper, and to assume 
"any financial relations, and if so, did you make the fact 
" known to Dr. Talmage prior to his leaving ? " It seems to 
me that the witness was beginning to answer that question 
when he was interrupted. "A. I don't remember that any ob- 
jection was made to secure — " 

" Q. Did you speak of the subject ; was there any con- 
ference with parties having that end in view, and did you 
" biing home to the mind of Dr. Talmage the fact that you were 
" doing that? " Now I would like to have the witness answer 
the question which he was about to answer when he was in- 
terrupted by counsel. The question is : " Did you, before the 
" leaving of Dr. Talmage try to get another minister or min- 
" isters to take hold of the paper, or assume any financial re- 
" lations to it, and if so, did you make the fact known to Dr. 
" Talmage prior to his leaving ? " 

Dr. Spear — Now, Mr. Moderator, that question is a double 
question, and involves two facts, and all the witness has to do 
is to say yes or no. Now read the first question and we will 
take his answer. 

Mr. Crosby — " Did you, before the leaving of Dr. Talmage 
" try to get another minister" — There is more comes in there. 



57 



Dr. Spear — I will read the question. 

" Q. Did you, before the leaving of Dr. Talmage try to get 
" another minister or ministers to take charge of the paper, or 
assume any financial relations to it ;" I think I meant to use 
the word " official ;" I was struck with the inaccuracy of lan- 
guage. "Financial or official relation to it." Now for the 
answer. A. Financial or official relations ; I did ^not, in that 
sense. 

Dr. Spear — Then my second question is disposed of. 

Mr. Ceosby — I think the witness has a right to explain it. 
It is complicated and may be taken in different senses. 

Dr. Spear — We have no disposition to take the slightest ad- 
vantage of this or any other witness, but this is a cross-exam- 
ination, and when a question is put that involves yes or no, the 
answer is to be given yes or no, and that is the end of it. If 
the brethren wish to make a correction, they can bring it out 
on the redirect-examination. 

A. But the very change I made in connection with it was 
not, as I am satisfied upon reflection, in accordance with the 
actual facts of the case. 

Dr. Spear — If the witness wants to make a brief correction, 
we will not object. 

Mr. Crosby — Let us see what the remark was. Mr. Crosby 
reads testimony beginning with the question : " Did you speak 
"on the subject, whether in conference with parties having 
" that end in view," and ending with the question : "Did you 
then expect that Dr. Talmage would remain?" 

Dr. Spear — I think that is quite enough. 

A. The point is simply this : As that testimony was given 
yesterday it carried the idea which then existed in my mind 
that in the interview had with Dr. Taylor referred to, the 
matter was mentioned to him of his possibly taking the posi- 
tion which was occupied by Dr. Talmage in the event of his 
leaving. 

Q. By Dr. Spear — The matter was mentioned to Dr. Tay- 
lor ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. But not to Dr. Talmage? A. Dr. Talmage was not in- 
formed, but upon reflection I am convinced that I was in error 
in making the statement in that form ; that the interview had 
8 



58 



with Dr. Taylor by Mr. Bright, the managing editor and myself, 

was in reference simply and only at the time to his printing a 
weekly review of the Sabbath School lessons, and that nothing 
was said to him with reference to his assuming any official 
editor al relations to the paper. 

Q. As far as Dr. Taylor is concerned ? A. Yes, sir ; that is 
the correction. 

The cross-examination then proceeded : 

Q. That is the correction you wish to make ? • A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now„I make the same apology, before I commit the offence 
that I did yesterday; that if any earnestness of mine may seem 
offensive to you, you must take it as not intentionally made? 
A. If the question contains an insult, 1 do not see that the re- 
sult is any the less with a disclaimer attached to it. 

Q. I do not intend any insult, sir, I only remind you of my 
earnestness of manner ; now, had you a Post Office box in the 
New York Post Office about the time or at the time that this 
advertisement was inserted in the New York papers ? A. I 
had not. 

Q. You were the proprietor of a gun factory, were you not ? 
A. One of the proprietors ; in that connection Mr. Alford was 
spoken of by me yesterday as in my employ ; he is in the em- 
ploy of the company — not in my employ— in connection with 
the business of the New York store. 

Q. Did you or Mr. Alford have a box in the office ; the 
Post Office ; where your letters or correspondence came ? A- 
The company had. 

Q. Was the number of that box 3,094, as stated in this ad- 
vertisement ? A. I do not remember the number of the box ; 
it was 3,994, I think ; I think that is the number of the box. 

Q. I ask your pardon, but that is it ; what was the title of 
the paper that was advertised ; under what title was the paper 
advertised ? A. It was spoken of as a religious weekly 
paper. 

Q. A religious weekly ? A. I believe so. 
Q. What paper was meant ? A. The Christian at Work was 
meant. 

Q. Under that general title ? A. It was ? 

Q. About what was the subscription list at the time ? A. 



59 



I do not remember ; the officers of the company who had im- 
mediate charge of the paper and of the letters will be able to 
give definite information on that. 

Q. I do not ask for definite information ; about what was it ; 
was it 50,000 ? A. No, sir. 

Q. 20,000 ? A. I think not. 

Q. 10,000 ? A. It was more than that. 

Q. Was it 12,000 ? A. I do not know ; it was, I think, be- 
tween 12,000 and 20,000. 

Q. 15,000 would be the proper estimate according to your 
best estimate ? A. I think it might not vary very much ; I do 
not know ; I have not charged my mind with the matter. 

Q. Now, taking the subscription list and the advertising pa- 
tronnge of that paper, and binding them together, was it a 
profitable paper ; paying its expenses and leaving a profit on 
the capital invested ? A. It was not. 

Q. "Was it a losing concern ? A. It was. 

Q. Involving you in loss? A. It was. 

Q. Considerably so ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What then did you mean by describing this paper as 
having a large subscription list and advertising patronage ; 
what impression did you mean to convey to the public ? A. 
The advertisement was not framed by me; what Mr. Alford's 
meaning may have been in doing it, I do not know; he may 
have considered it large as compared with other papers of 
smaller circulation and advertising patronage ; large compara- 
tively. 

Q. Did you have any talk with this Mr. Alford, or this Mr. 
A. L. Ford, about this advertisement before it was made ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. You had no conversation with him about advertising the 
paper at all ? A. I think I wrote him that he might find a pur- 
chaser by advertising. 

Q. No ; my point is this ; did you have any conversation 
with Mr. Alford — the man whose name is Mr. A. L. Ford here 
— about the advertising of this paper in the New York papers? 
A. I do not remember to have had any conversation with him 
about it. 

Q. Then you do not know how he came to advertise it at all ? 



60 



A. Yes, sir ; he knew that I was desirous of finding a pur- 
chaser. 

Q. You had no conversation with him on the subject, and 
he advertised of his own accord without your knowledge? A. 
He may have spoken to me of it ; if he did, I have no recollec- 
tion of it ; or he may have written to me. 

Q. I understood you to say, Mr. Eemington, that you never 
broached the subject to him at all, until the advertisement ap- 
peared in the papers ? A. The subject of finding a purchaser 
was 

Q. I am not talking about finding a purchaser, but I am 
talking of advertising for a purchaser ; was this advertisement 
inserted in the New York papers, the Herald for one, without 
your knowledge entirely, and without any conference on your 
part with this Mr. Alford ? A. It was, so far as I remember 
now. 

Q. When were you first advised of it ? A. By a copy of 
the advertisement which he sent me. 

Q. AYas the advertisement continued after you became 
aware of it. A. I do not know. 

Q. Do you know when the advertisement was first inserted? 
A. I do not know when it was inserted. 

Q. Did you disapprove of the advertisement, and find fault 
with it? A. I did not. 

Q. To this Mr. Alford? A. I did not, 

Q. Then I understand you to say now that this advertise- 
ment, advertising a religious weekly, having a large subscrip- 
tion list and advertising patronage, and meaning the Christian 
at Work, was put in the New York papers without your knowl- 
edge or consent, at the time ? A. It was so, so far as I now 
remember ; I have no recollection of Mr. Alford speaking to me 
in regard to advertising, before it was inserted. 

Q. Did he speak to you about it afterwards ? A. I have no 
recollection of his speaking to me with referenc to it after- 
wards. 

Q. Didn't you yesterday say you had a conversation with 
him, and you gave your consent to it ? A. I think not ; I 
think I approved the advertisement after it was sent to me ; 
my present recollection is, that he enclosed a copy to me by 
letter. 



61 

Q. When I presented that to you, you identified it as the 
one? A. Yes, sir ; I had seen it before. 

Q. That is the advertisement in question ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. This advertisement says : " Apply to principals only ;" 
who is meant there ? A. Does it read that ? 

Q. Yes ; that is the language exactly. A. Will you allow 
me to look at it? 

Q. With great pleasure, sir. A. The " principals only " is 
in brackets, and as I interpreted it then and do now, it was a 
suggestion that only those who were purchasing for themselves 
should apply, and not some party representing some other 
person, " apply to principals only." 

Q. Did you regard this a bonafide offer for the sale of that 
paper ; when it came to your knowledge, you regarded it as 
such and intended it as such? A. Not as an offer for the sale 
of the paper. 

Q. But an advertisement ? A. An effort to secure a pur- 
chaser. 

Q. With, a view to its sale ? A. It was inserted with a view 
to its sale. 

Q. That was your intention and meaning in regard to it ? 
A. That was Mr. Alford's intention I presume. 

Q. I want your intention ? A. I assented to the form in 
which it was put as sufficiently conveying my own. 

Q. And for that purpose ? A. And for that purpose. 

Q. Did you consult with anybody but this Mr. Alford about 
this advertisement either at the time in which it appeard, or 
afterwards when it came to your knowledge ? A. No, sir, I 
have no recollection of ever consulting with any one. 

Q. Is he the only party with whom you talked ? A. I do not 
know that I ever talked with him, with reference to the adver- 
tisement. 

Q. It appeared with his signature or the signature of A. L. 
Ford ; how do you know it was your paper then ? A. I re- 
marked a short time ago that my recollection of the occur- 
rence was that the advertisement was enclosed to me by him. 

Q. And marked? A. And marked, but enclosed in a letter 
without mark ; I do not remember distinctly about that. 

Q. With nothing in the correspondence to call your atten- 



62 



tion to it? A. He may or may not have spoken of it in his 
letter. 

Q. I go back again to the inquiry, and the paper was sent 
to you and marked, and you had never had any conversation 
with' this Mr. A. L. Ford about this advertisement, and you 
do not recollect as you sav, whether he gave you any opinion 
as to that advertisement ; how then came you to regard it as 
the Christian at Work as being advertised byAlford? A. I 
did not say that he did not give me any opinion in enclosing 
the advertisement ; I think he enclosed it to me in the letter 
referring to it. 

Q. Just the single advertisement cut out of the paper? A. 
That is my recollection. 

Q. When the knowledge of this advertisement came into 
your mind, was t ie source of it known to anybody but yourself 
and this Mr. Alford? A. I do not know. 

Q. We a>k you this question : Did you at that time suppose 
that the public, including Dr. Talmage as a part of the great 
public, would or would not know to what paper the advertise- 
ment referred? A. They would not without inquiry, and par- 
ties who inquired were referred to the officers of the company 
for information. 

Q. Simply on the face of the paper? A. On the face of the 
paper they would not know, and it was not designed that they 
should know. 

Q. I was about to ask that questien whether you heard at 
the time that the name of the paper should be concealed from 
the public? A. As I said yesterday, it w r ould have been dam- 
aging to mention the paper in connection with the sale in an 
open advertisement. 

Q. It vvas intended that there should be responses invited to 
this advertisement ? A. It was. 

Q. Were there any responses ? A. There were. 

Q. How many? A. I don't remember of more than two 
that my attention was ca'led to. 

Q. What were those ? A. The names I do not recollect 
now ; they were referred to the officers of the company at the 
office ; I presume, when they are called to testify, they may 
recollect the names. 



63 



Q. I ask you simply if you know who they were, what per- 
sons? A. I do not recollect them. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage one of the joint owners of the paper at 
this time, stockholders? A. He had, I believe, one share in 
his own name. 

Q. Did you talk with him after making the discovery that 
this ambiguous advertisement did refer to the Christian at 
Work ; did you talk with him on that subject and inform him 
that it was this paper for sale ? A. No, sir ; I did not. 

Q. Did you call iris attention in any way to this advertise- 
ment? A. I did not. 

Q. After it was made known to you, it was a bona fide adver- 
tisement, on your part, for the sale of the paper upon such 
terms as the proprietors could agree, of course? A. It was. 

Q. But you did not call the attention of Dr. Talmage to it 
at all? A. I did not deem it necessary to, as the parties in- 
quiring were referred to the officers of the company for infor- 
mation. 

Q. Then, so far as you know, this advertisement of the 
paper for sale, of which he was a stockholder, in the leading 
papers of New York, was without his knowledge and consent? 
A. It was so far as I know ; it was understood that the pay- 
ments that had been made by me in connection with the in- 
debtedness of the company had more than covered the whole 
stock — considerably more, so that the stock was comparatively 
worthless, and it was recognized by all who were interested in 
the paper ; not excepting, I think, Dr. Talmage ; that I should 
make disposition of it in the best manner possible, to protect 
the interests of those to whom the paper was indebted for 
labor, material, paper, and other supplies. 

Q. Then, so far as the fact is before your mind, the Christian 
at Work was advertised for sale with your knowledge and con- 
sent, in a disguised form, and over a false name, and without 
the knowledge of Dr. Talmage for some three months before 
he left the paper ? A. I do not know how long it was adver- 
tised. 

Q. Dr. Talmage left on the 10th of October, 1876, and this 
was July liith, 1876 ; that was the fact ? A. That was the fact 
as you state it, in the manner you state it ; but not the fact as 
I regarded it. 



64 

Q. I am not asking for reasons or explanations, but that 
simple fact in relation to Dr. Talmage ? 

Q. I put my question again : Then, so far as you know, this 
advertisement of which you have knowledge— I will not re- 
call the language of it— published in all the leading papers- 
then, so far as you know, the Christian at Work was adver- 
tised for sale in a disguised form and over a false name, and 
without the knowledge of Dr. Talmage, some three months 
before he left the paper ; the advertisement being in July and 
his leaving in August ; that is the fact, is it not ; I don't ask 
for motives nor the character of the act; that was the fact, 
wasn't it ? A. The advertisement was so inserted. 

Q. That was the fact in the case then ? A. I cannot re- 
cognize your definition of it. 

Q. Were there any other owners of the paper besides your- 
self and Dr. Talmage ; you say he was owner of one share ? 
A. There were. 

Q. Can you name them ? A. Mr. Henry Dickinfon, Mr- 
Hawley, Mr. Bright ; I have not kept a list of the stockholders 
in my mind ; I mentioned those that occurred to me ; there 
were several of Dr. Talmage's friends who had, certainly, a 
small amount of stock, I believe, whose names I do not recall. 

Q. Do you know the present residence of all the persons 
who were the stockholders ? A. I do not. 

Q. You say, in your testimony day before yesterday, in 
answer to this question (page 32) : " Q. Did you ever try to 
sell the paper without the knowledge or consent of the joint 
owners ? A. I did not." Was that true ? A. I could not 
sell it without ; I could make efforts to find purchasers, but I 
could not sell it without the consent of the joint owners ; I 
made inquiries with reference to effecting a sale, but without 
any intention of accomplishing a sale, which could, not be done 
without the approval of the joint owners, or at least a majority 
of them. 

Q. W as Mr. Dickinson connected with the paper ? A. He 
was. 

Q. During the summer of 1876 ? A. He was. 
Q. What was his position ? A. He was acting in the posi- 
tion of financial manager or treasurer. 



65 



Q. Did you know of any arrangement made by him during 
that summer — say in the month of June — with Dr. Talmage, 
and if so, did you assent to it ? A. There was an arrangement 
made between Mr. Dickinson and Mr. Talmage, to which I 
assented. 

Q. What was that arrangement? A. It was an arrangement 
with reference to his remaining at a reduced salary, the en- 
gagement to be terminated upon thirty days notice. 

Q. Were you informed, at that time, that Dr. Talmage, at 
any time of the arrangement, gave notice that he would retire 
in the ensuing autumn — say in the month of October — while 
the arrangement was specificially for thirty days, he gave his 
notice right on the spot that he would retire in the ensuing 
autumn ? A. I have no recollection of it. 

Q. Was it a part of that arrangement, and subsequently 
brought to your knowledge, that he should ? A. I don't re- 
member of its being brought to my knowledge. 

Q. You don't know whether Dr. Talmage did give the four 
months' notice ? A. I do not ; there was no four months 
notice contemplated, so far as I am aware. 

Q. I don't say it was in the arrangement, but did he at the 
time of the arrangement, although the arrangement specifies 
thirty days' notice, at the option of either party, then gave his 
notice on the spot ? A. If he did, I was not aware of it, or 
have no recollection of it ; Mr. Dickinson may have the fact. 

Q. Did Mr. Dickinson tell you so ? A. I have no recollec- 
tion of his saying so to me. 

Q. Were you, in June, 1876, the time of this arrangement, 
whatever it may be, desirous that Dr. Talmage should retain 
his position as editor of the paper ? A. I was desirous that 
he should remain, if it should seem to be mutually advantage- 
ous to those interested in the paper. 

Q. The prosecution have presented in evidence here, I think 
on the first day of the examination, two letters, from Dr. Tal- 
mage, one dated May 1 7th, 1875, and the other August 8th, 
1875 ; you will re-call the letters to which I am referring ; how 
came the prosecution to be in possession of these letters ? A. 
I brought them with me and handed them to Mr. Crosby when 
I came down. 
9 



66 



Q. To whom and when did you communicate the fact that 
you had such letters ? A. I don't know who 

Q. And how came you to bring them with you? A. I 
brought them with me because they gave some certain points 
which I thought would have a bearing on the case. 

Q. Did you bring them with you by request ? A. I did not- 

Q. Then you thought the thing out in your own mind ? A. 
I read the letters through and saw they covered some point 
which I thought might be of importance. 

Q. Are you in the habit of preserving your casual letters, or 
do you make it a rule to preserve all your letters ? A. Gen- 
erally so. 

Q. And you did these ? A. I did. 

Q. Had you any special reason in your own mind for pre- 
serving these letters and bringing them with you unasked and 
unknown to the Committee ? A.I brought all I found ; these 
are the only letters I found ; other letters which I had received 
from Dr. Talmage from time to time, had been sent to the 
office of the paper. 

Q. Then Mr. Crosby first learned the fact thatryou had these 
letters after you came here ; he did not know it before ? A. 
He did not. 

Q. Did he write to you asking if you had any correspondence 
with Dr. Talmage which you might furnish? A. He may 
have mentioned in his letter of inquiry, if I had any documents 
bearing upon the case — any papers. 

Q. A letter also was presented bearing date October 5th, 
1876, postmarked October 9th, 1876 ; where did you receive 
that letter ? A. I received that at Ilion. 

Q. Where was it postmarked ? A. Postmarked New York. 

Q. Do you know of any reason for the difference of time be- 
tween the two dates ? A. I do not. 

Q. You have no knowledge whatever as to the reason for the 
difference ? A. I have not. 

Q. You don't know but the date of the letter was a mistaken 
date? A. It may have been; I only know that that letter 
came in that envelope. 

Q. I want to inquire of you if you have not as a matter of 
fact, been a volunteer helper in getting up this trial and prose- 
cution against Dr. Talmage ? A. I have not. 



67 



Q. In no way, so far as you know ? A. I have not ; on the 
other hand I wrote to Mr. Crosby that I hoped there might not 
be occasion for me to visit Brooklyn in connection with this 
case ; I was not desirous of appearing as a witness. 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage intended to act deceit- 
fully in his withdrawal from the Christian at Work ; do you 
know that fact ? A. I interpreted the motive from the action. 

Q. Answer my question if you please, I don't say how you 
get at it ? A. I don't know what his intention was ; I so in- 
terpret the act. 

Q. That is not my question ; I ask you whether you know 
that fact ; it is a very material fact in the case, if there is any- 
thing in it ? A. That he intended — 

Q. That he intended to act deceitfully as here charged ? A. 
I am unable to look into Dr. Talmage' s mind to know what his 
motive was. 

Q. Then you don't know ? A. I only know and can only 
know from his actions in the case. 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage did not at the time of his 
retirement, think upon information received by him that you 
were planning in the summer and autumn of 1876, without his 
knowledge, for other arrangements in respect to the paper, 
either selling the paper with him as editor or selling it without 
him? A. Will you read the question again? 

Question repeated. 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage did not at the time of 
his retirement think upon information received by him that 
you were planning in the summer and autumn of 1876, without 
his knowledge, for other arrangements in respect to the 
paper — I will stop right there ? A.I don't know what he 
thought. 

Q. Do you know that what he regarded as reliable informa- 
tion to this effect was not given him for sometime before his 
withdrawal ? A. I don't know ; he was a member of the 
Board of Trustees, and it was his privilege to be present at 
the regular meetings ; at those meetings, I may say there was 
no secrecy, no effort to keep from Dr. Talmage, at least so far 
as I am concerned any of the facts relating to the sale of the 
paper. 



68 



Q. Do you know that what he (Dr. Talmage) regarded as 
reliable information to this effect was not given to him for 
sometime before his withdrawal from the paper ? A. I don't 
know it. 

Q. Very well ; another question ; do you know that he had 
not particular information to the same effect on the day of his 
withdrawal, and that this was not the reason that led him sum- 
marily to close his connection with the paper ? A. Please read 
the question again ? 

Question repeated. A, To what effect? 

Q. As to the sale of the paper. A. That he had not parti- 
cular information ? 

Q. I will repeat the previous question : " do you know that 
what he (Dr. Talmage) regarded as reliable information to this 
effect was not given to him for some time before his with- 
drawal ; " you have said " no ; " now I ask, do ^you not know 
that he had particular information to the same effect on the 
day of his withdrawal, and this was not the reason that led 
him summarily to close his connection with the paper ? 

Q. Do you know still further that in any statements which 
he afterwards made about his withdrawal, he did not speak as 
he thought? A. I do not. 

Q. Did you order the first issue of the Christian at Work 
containing Dr. Talmage's valedictory and the Advanee ad- 
vertisement to be suppressed ? A. I did not. 

Q. You did not order it to be suppressed ; you understand 
the question ? A. I did not myself ; I assented to it ; the 
matter was mentioned, and I considered at that time that it 
was practically a question for Mr. Hallock to determine, 
although the sale had not been fully consummated. 

Q. When were you made aware of the fact that his vale- 
dictory and this Advance advertisement were in the paper? A. 
On the morning of the 9th no, on the morning of the 10th. 

Q. Were you in the office ? A. I think I was. 

Q. And it was afterwards suppressed ? A. It was. 

Q. With your concurrence and direction? A. With my 
concurrence. 

Q. You were the chief proprietor of that paper, were you 
not ? A. Yes, sir. 



69 



Q. Was it practically by your order ? A. I did not really 
consider myself chief proprietor at that time, for the reason 
that the arrangement had been made with reference to the 
transfer of the paper to Mr. Halleck. 

Q. Do you know that the advance advertisement was in- 
serted in that paper by Mr. Talmage's order, or with his 
knowledge of the fact ? A. I don't know it as a fact. 

Q. Do you know how that advertisement came to be in- 
serted at all? A. I do not. 

Q. You do not know who made the arrangement for it ? A. 
I do not. 

Q. You hence don't know what the arrangement was — don't 
know anything about it ? A. No, sir ; nothing about the ad- 
vertisement ; only know the fact that it went in. 

Q. Was it not a fact that you were in the habit of saying 
things to Dr. Talmage about his management of the paper 
calculated to annoy him, and also similar things to others likely 
to come to his ears ? A. I think not. 

Q. You don't remember any such things at all ? A. I do 
not — at least, nothing that has ever elicited any word of com- 
plaint from Dr. Talmage, if there has been anything of that 
kind. 

Q. Did you speak to him in respect to the management of 
the paper — that you were not satisfied with the general man- 
agement of the paper at any time ; make suggestions to him 
that seemed to imply complaint or anything of that character ? 
A. I presume 1 may have done so ; I think I have in some 
cases. 

Q. Will you tell the court in what manner you have been in 
the habit of speaking of this act of withdrawal from the 
Christian at Work? A. I have spoken of it as in my judgment 
a dishonorable act — withdrawing in the manner he did. 

Q. In what other manner have you spoken of it, how have 
you characterized the thing? A. I do not know that I have 
characterized it otherwise than in substantially the language. 

Q. (Interrupting.) Do you recollect your answer to my 
question yesterday whether you had spoken disparagingly of 
Dr. Talmage, and you said : " if it should be construed as 
speaking disparagingly to say that I considered Mr. Talmage 



70 



did me, and those associated with me in connection with the 
paper a great wrong, I done so ; " is that the style in which 
you have been in the habit of speaking of it ? A. It is. 

Q. In answer to another question : " did you regard Dr. 
Talmage's retirement from the paper as an injury to you and 
it, at the time he withdrew? A. Yes, sir; I regarded it as 
calculated to work injury both to me and to the paper ; " is 
that another specimen of the manner in which you have been 
in the habit of speaking of this act of withdrawal ? A. I have 
not been in the habit of speaking of it. 

Q. I want to get the form in which you have adverted to this 
act of withdrawal ? A. It has been substantially in the terms 
mentioned. 

Q. Was it an injury to you and to the paper that he did 
withdraw? A. I don't know that it proved an injury to the 
paper. 

Q. Was it an injury to you ? A. The manner in which he 
withdrew 

Q. My question was, was the fact of the withdrawal an in- 
jury to you ? A. It was not so much the fact as what followed 
the fact. 

Q. What was the wrong that Dr. Talmage committed against 
you or the paper, if any, by the withdrawal 1 am speaking of 
now ? The wrong ? 

Q. Yes ; you said it was a wrong and an injury to you ; what 
was the wrong? A. The wrong was involved in what followed 
the fact rather than 

Q. Was it a pecuniary harm to you ? A. I don't know that 
it resulted in any pecuniary loss. 

Q. It was no pecuniary harm to the paper, was it ? A. It 
may have been, and may not ; I don't know whether it was or 
not. 

Q. How did you regard the fact of his withdrawal, as a ben- 
efit or an injury to the paper ? A. I thought at the time that 
it would be an injury to the paper ; I don't know but it was. 

Q. Did you ever call Dr. Talmage a liar? A. No, sir; I 
have not used that term. 

Q. I simply ask that question ? A.I have not. 

Q. Did you ever use this word, "falsehood," as describing 



71 



this act ? A. I don't know that I have used that term in ref- 
erence to it. 

Q. Did you couch the act in this phrase, " acted deceit- 
fully ?" A. I may have used that or any equivalent phrase. 

Q. Did you use that language ? A. I don't remember that 
I used just those words. 

Q. Then it seems, so far as the act was before you, and your 
knowledge of it was concerned, it never suggested to you either 
of those words, "falsehood" or "acted deceitfully;" that is an 
invention of a subsequent date ? 

(Objected to.) 

Q. Neither of these phrases, " falsehood " or " acted deceit- 
fully," were on your lips as descriptive of this act of with- 
drawal ; but "injury" or " wrong," words of that kind? A. I 
did think there was deceit in the manner of withdrawal ; the 
act and the circumstances attending it 

Q. But never employed the word falsehood in application to 
the act ? A. I don't know that I used that word falsehood in 
connection with it. 

Cross-examination by Mr. Millard, was then begun, as fol- 
lows : 

Q. I understood you to say that you wrote to Mr. Crosby 
that you were unwilling to come here as a witness ? A. I did. 

Q. And you have stated, I believe, that you have no feeling 
in this matter — no personal feeling? A. No personal feeling. 

Q. What made you, then, come more than two hundred 
miles from home, at your own expense, and stay here several 
days to testify in this case ? A. Because I could not consist- 
ently refuse to respond to the request. 

Q. Why not consistently ; what was it made it your duty to 
come ? A. Because of the history of the transaction. 

Q. You did not feel that you were compelled to come, did 
you ? A. I did not understand that I was compelled to come. 

Q. But you felt that you had a mission to come here and 
testify ? A. Not a mission, but that it was a duty. 

Q. On what account ? A. Because of the circumstances 
connected with Dr. Talmage's withdrawal from the paper and 
what followed. 

Q. You mean, don't you, then, that it was your duty to come 
here and put down Dr. Talmage ? A. No, sir ; no, sir. 



72 



Q. Was it to put yourself right? A. In a sense, yes. 

Q. Let me ask you, have you testified in this case that Dr. 
Talmage made any false statements in connection with his 
withdrawal from the paper ; have you stated that upon your 
testimony here? A. I don't know whether I have made that 
statement. 

Q. Do you state it now, sir ? A. There were statements 
made which were reported as coming from his lips, that I re- 
garded as false. 

Q. That is not the question, about what is reported ; do you 
now state that you know of his making any false statements in 
connection with the withdrawal from that paper? A. I do not 
know it as an absolute fact. 

Q. Do you now state, as of your own knowledge, that he did 
anything deceitful in connection with the withdrawal from that 
paper ? A. I so regarded it. 

Q. What was it ? A. The manner in which he inserted his 
valedictory. 

Q. What deception was there about that ? A. It was de- 
ceiving those with whom he had been associated. 

Q. In what particular ? A. In withdrawing without giving 
notice. 

Q. Deceiving them in making them think he was not going 
to withdraw ? A. I regarded the act as one of deception. 

Q. I understood you to say so, and now ask you what the 
point of the deception was ; was that it, that you considered 
he didn't mean to let the proprietors know he was going to 
withdraw, but deceived them in that particular ? A. Until 
after the matter was consummated. 

Q. Do you know that he had determined at any time previ- 
ous to that day to withdraw ; you know that ? A. I do not. 

Q. Do you know that after he determined to withdraw that 
he had any opportunity to let the proprietors know in any 
other way than he did, by putting that into the paper ? A. I 
don't know. 

Q. How then did he deceive them, or have any opportunity 
to do it ? A. It was a deception, as I regarded it, that the 
paper should be presented to those who had charge of it as 



73 



though it had not been changed, as though it was the regular 
edition. 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage did that? A. Not abso- 
lutely. 

Q. Do you know it in anyway ? A. I know it as my belief, 
that it was. 

Q. I am not asking it as your belief ; I want to know if in 
any way Dr. Talmage had anything to do with putting that 
first edition before the officers in their room? A. I don't 
know it as a fact. 

Q. Do you know that he knew it was done? A. I do not, 
only by presumption. 

Q. You mean to say then that you don't swear and cannot 
swear of your own knowledge, that Dr. Talmage made any false 
statement or did any deceitful act in withdrawing from that 
paper ? 

Mr. Ceosby — What is that question ? 

Q. I ask him if he has not now said that he does not now 
know of his own knowledge that Dr. Talmnge made any false 
statement, knowing it to be false, or do any deceitful act in 
connection with his withdrawal from the paper ; do you say 
that ? A. I do not, of my own knowledge. 

Q. Ton brought here with you two letters, that it struck you 
might bear on the case ; one of those letters is the one dated 
October 5th, and mailed on October yth ? A. I did not bring 
that, it was here in New York ; it was brought here in 

Q. (Interrupting.) Have you at any time stated that that let- 
ter was dated back ? A. I don't remember to have stated any 
such thing. 

Q. Have you not made that statement in a public letter pub- 
lished under your own name ? A. I may have done so ; I have 
no recollection about it. 

Q. You may have done so ; what is your recollection ? A. I 
don't remember. 

Q. Do you mean to say now, Mr. Kemington, that it is your 
belief that that letter was dated back ? A. It is my belief 
from the circumstances, the postmark being on the 9th. 

Q. Will you tell me, Mr. Remington, what motive he could 
have for dating it back ? A. I don't know just what motive 
may have existed in his mind. 
10 



74 



Q. Can you think of any? A. I could think of this motive, 
that if he was immediately and directly concerned, as I have 
reason to believe he was, in the change of the paper, in the in- 
sertion of his valedictory and the advertisement, that he might 
naturally wish that this letter announcing his resignation 
thirty days hence should not be dated on that night. 

Q. Why not as well as five days before ? A. I think he would 
not choose to connect it so closely with that transasction. 

Q. What reason, in your mind, could there be ; would dating 
it back five days before bring it within the rule of giving thirty 
days' notice ; understand my question ; for five days before that 
he had made up his mind to withdraw on the 9th ; or (if he did 
not make up his mind until that time) on the 9th, to withdraw, 
and in order to come within the rule of the thirty days' notice, 
would he do that by dating it back five days any more than if 
he dated it on that day ? A. No. 

Q. What possible object, then, could he have in dating it 
back five clays? A. I do not know of any object except dis- 
connecting the letter from the occurrence. 

Q. How would the fact that he wrote a letter while doing 
this, give any different color to the occurrence ? A. I do not 
know that it could. 

Q. And you without any reason, you have charged in the 
public prints, have you not, that he misdated that letter ? A. 
I regarded it as 

Q. (Interrupting.) Answer my question without any reason 
that you can now give ; you have charged in the public papers 
that Dr. Talmage misdated the letter sent to you? A. That 
was my understanding of the matter, as the letter came to me. 

Q. You do not understand my question ; I say that now, 
without being able to give any reason why he should do it, you 
have charged him with having done it designedly, to deceive 
the public and deceive you ; you have made that public decla- 
ration, haven't you, in the public papers of this City and New 
York ? A. I don't know how the statement was worded ; that 
was my understanding of it. 

Q. Now in regard to that thirty days' notice ; did you think 
Dr. Talmage did you a wrong in not giving you thirty days' 
notice ? A. I was not myself particular in regard to the fact 
of his giving thirty days' notice. 



75 



Q. You did not regard that, then, as anything wrong — the 
fact that he did not give you thirty days' notice ? A. Not any 
special wrong. 

Q. Let me ask you ; I understood you to say the paper was 
virtually sold before that day, October 9th ? A. Sold, so far 
as having the arrangement made, but not 

Q. (Interrupting.) Not formally consummated by the Trus- 
tees ? A. Not formally consummated by the Trustees. 

Q. I understood you to say a few moments ago, in answer 
to Dr. Spear, that you did not feel you had anything to say 
about ordering out the editorial and ordering in another ; that 
it belonged to Mr. Halleck ? A. That he had, under the cir- 
cumstances, perhaps as much to say as myself. 

Q. Now, if you had virtually sold the paper then, when did 
you expect it to be formally consummated ; was the sale ac- 
tually consummated sooner than it would have been if Dr. Tal- 
mage had remained there ? A. I do not know that it was. 

Q. That was within how many days ? A. The sale was con- 
summated on the 12th. 

Q. You expected, then, that you were going to consummate 
that sale by October 12th ; after it had been sold, could you, 
of your own motion, retain Dr. Talmage in your employ or in 
the employ of the paper ? A. I could not. 

Q. Had you given him any thirty days' notice of leaving the 
paper ? A. I had not. 

Q. So that you were taking a step that might have thrown 
him out in three days, without giving him any notice ? A. It 
was my understanding, from the conversation I had with Mr. 
Halleck touching the purchase of the paper, that Dr. Talmage 
would remain. 

Q. Was that a part of the contract ? A. It was not a part 
of the contract. 

Q. With Hallock ; there was no arrangement made ? A. No 
arrangement between me and Mr. Hallock. 

Q. And you did not know whether he was going to retain 
him or not ; didn't you then violate your contract when you 
did that ? A. I understood from Mr. Hallock that he expected 
to retain Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Did he say on what terms ? A. He did not. 



76 



Q. It would depend, then, on whether they could agree first 
about terms ? A. I supposed, from the conversation, that they 
had substantially agreed. 

Q. You were going to let that thing take its own course 
whether Dr. Talmage dropped between the two stools or 
whether he continued ? A. I considered that whether Dr. Tal- 
mage regarded the contract as violated, he would be entitled 
to his compensation for the thirty days, which was covered by 
the notice. 

Q. Would that be all the compensation he would require ; 
merely as salary that you threw him out of employment with- 
out giving him a chance to make other arrangements, and leav- 
ing him dismissed from the paper ? A. He had said to us re- 
peatedly, that other papers were wanting his services ; that he 
could at any time receive a larger salary than he was receiving 
from us. 

Q. So you did not think you were under obligation to keep 
your contract with him ? A. I did not think it would do him 
any wrong or work any injury to him. 

Q. Let me ask you whether in reducing his salary, first 
from $4,000 to $3,000, then from $3,000 to $1,500 

Mr. Ckosby — That is not in evidence. 

Mr. Millard — It is ; he said it was reduced. 

Q. Well, didn't you intend in that successive reduction to 
give him a hint that he was not wanted there ; haven't you 
stated in a public letter, published over your name, that he 
might have inferred that from the reduction of his salary, and 
that he might not have stopped for any thirty days' notice ? 
A. I don't remember. 

Q. Nothing to that effect ? A. I don't remember ; I may 
say with reference to this matter of thirty days' notice, that 
the arrangement was made by Mr. Dickinson and at the time 
of this transfer by Mr. Hallock ; I did not remember that pro- 
vision. 

Q. You forgot the contract ? A. I did. 

Q. Now let me ask you if you considered that Dr. Talmage 
did you any wrong in putting in his farewell editorial that 
night ? A. I think he did. 

Q. Had you told Dr. Talmage of the state of the negoti- 
ations between you and Mr. Hallock ? A. I had not. 



77 



Q. Had you told him that the matter was virtually already 
concluded and the paper sold from under him ? A. I had 
not. 

Q. Don't you think that Dr. Ta Image would have expected 
you, as an honorable man, having him in your employ, and 
under a contract to give thirty days' notice before leaving, if 
you had brought the matter to a virtual sale, would have told 
him about it ; wouldn't he have expected that ; hadn't he a 
right to expect that ? A. Perhaps he had. 

Q. Now let me suppose that Dr. Talmage learned on that 
9th day of October that the paper was sold, as you say it was 
sold virtually ; suppose some one had told him as he entered 
the office there on the 9th day of October : " The paper is sold, 
and you are sold with it ;" would it have been wrong for him 
when he discovered that for — supposing that he had been in 
negotiation— knowing you were in negotiations there — sup- 
pose he had been in negotiations with the Advance, and that 
that was still unconcluded ; now when he learned that you 
had sold the paper, do you think it would have been wrong 
in Dr. Talmage to go to the Advance people and close the 
matter with them that day and then come back and put that 
farewell into the paper ; would there have been anything 
wrong under those circumstances ? A. Perhaps not. 

Q. Would he have had any other chance if he was to say 
good bye at all, on the supposition that the paper was sold — 
would he have had any other chance to say it if he had not 
got it in that night ? A. He could have said it ; Mr. Hallock 
expected he would remain, or if he did not remain he could 
have given the valedictory in the paper. 

Q. How do you know ; would not it have been for Mr. Hal- 
lock to say ? A. It would have been. 

Q. You do not know that he would have had any other 
chance but that night ? A. Not absolutely. 

Q. And lie could not have known ? A. Not absolutely. 

Q. Then in the uncertainty whether he would be left to go 
out of the paper without a chance to say good bye, was it 
wrong in him to have the presses run all night, if need be, to 
get that farewell in ? A. I think it was. 

Q. You think he ought to have submitted to have gone out 



78 



without saying a word to his friends about why he was going 
out and where he was going ? A. I think he would have been 
allowed to say that. 

Q, You say that you don't know that he would have had 
any chance to say it if he had not said it that night ; now do 
you say it would have been wrong in him in that uncertainty 
to have taken decisive measures to leave in a decorous and 
formal manner instead of looking as if he was kicked out and 
the public to say : " Why has Dr. Talmage been dropped so 
suddenly by that paper ? " A. He may have been justified, 
perhaps. 

Q. Now, let me ask you if he was justified in that, were you 
justified in consenting to order that out ? A. I think I was. 

Q. You mean to say then that he was justified in putting it 
in and you were justified in ordering it out ; you mean to make 
both these statements ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Which then, do you adhere to ; you say he was justified 
in putting it in ; now I ask you do you think you were justified 
in ordering it to be suppressed ? A. In the manner you put 
it I think perhaps I may not have been. 

Q. Did you order the editorial that went in in the place of 
it, to go in — Dr. Taylor's editorial or whosever it was — the 
editorial that took the place of it. Did you order that in ? 
A. I did not order it in ; I assented to it. 

Q. You are the chief owner ; just look at that editorial and 
see if that was the one that went in (handing book to wit- 
ness ; is that the one? A. I believe it is. 

Q. I will read this substituted editorial : " The change in 
" the head of our editorial columns gives its own story. The 
" Eev. Mr. Talmage retires from the chief editorship of this 
" paper, and the Rev. William M. Taylor, D. D., pastor of the 
" Broadway Tabernacle Church in this City, takes his place. 
" Dr. Taylor needs no introduction to our readers. An able 
" and eloquent 'preacher of an uncompromising evangelism, a 
" vigorous writer and distinguished lecturer, Dr. Taylor has 
"acquired a reputation widespread throughout the country 
" and second to none. Under his direction, seconded by Mr. 
" W. H. Bright, the Christian at Work goes forward to fulfill 
" its mission, and that mission, largely as it has been in the 



79 



" past, will be the promotion of true spirituality, the further- 
" ance of the Christian work, the proclamation of an uncom- 
" promising evangelical doctrine, the setting forth of the 
" joyousness, the whole hearteclness of the religions life. This 
"journal, whatever may be its deficiencies, will not be a mere 
" personal organ ; it will not be subject to impulse nor gov- 
" erned by caprice. Believing that Christian truth should be 
" declared with simplicity and earnestness, it will be direct 
" without being dull, versatile without being frivolous ; it will 
" make more of life than a jest ; it will not borrow the clothes 
" of Harlequin, nor paint from Columbine, nor rob poor Panta- 
" loon of his mask." 

Q. Was that last sentence pointed at Dr. Talmage? A. I 
do not know that it was. 

Q. What do you think about it ; what did you think about 
it when it went in ? A. It maj> have been. 

Q. Don't you think it was ; didn't you think so when you 
let it go in ? A. I did not have any opinion about it particu- 
larly ; I didn't write the article. 

Q. You did not notice that fliDg at the end, and did not 
think whom it referred to ; so that you ordered out Dr. Tal- 
mage's few words of farewell ; was there anything objectionable 
in that farewell ? A. I don't know that there was. 

Q. Just look at that and see if that was the one ordered out 
(handing book to witness) ; is that the one ? A. Yes, sir. 

Moderator — It has been read in evidence. 

Q. Let me ask you, was there anything objectionable in 
that farewell editorial ? A. I do not know that there was. 

Q. Nothing tending to injure the paper ; nothing more than 
to tell when he was going and where he was going, was it ? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. I am requested to read it. 

(Counsel reads the article). 
He could not have said less than that if he was going out of 
the paper, could he, if he said anything ? A. I do not know 
that he could. 

Q. You have spoken of a letter that Dr. Talmage wrote to 
you from Canada, in which he stated that he had an offer of 
$5,000 to go to some other paper ; I do not know that he men- 



80 



tiooed the salary, but that he could not stay with you unless 
you could give him the salary ; that is so, is it not? A. It is. 

Q. You brought that letter with you, did you ? A. I did 
not. 

Q. How did it get into the hands of the prosecution here? 
A. That letter is not in the hands of the prosecution. 

Q. Did you testify to it orally ? A. I did. 

Q. I had forgotten that; do you mean to say now that 
Dr. Talmage told a lie when he said he had such an offer ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Did you mean to intimate that ? A. I did not. 

Q. What other bearing had that letter on the case ; if not 
for that, why did you bring that in ? A. Because of the assur- 
ance that he had given us prior to that, in reference to the 
engagement of Mr. Gorwin that if the paper was not a success 
under Mr. Corwin's management, he would serve for nothing 
without charge or salary. 

Q. Was Mr. Corwin's administration a success ? A. It was 
not. 

Q. How long a chance did you give him to show whether 
taking hold of a new business he could make a success of it ? 
A. He had that portion of the year in which the circulation of 
the paper is advanced, if at all. 

Q. How many months? A. About six months, I *hink. 

Q. Didn't you tell him even before the end of the six months 
that you were not going to retain him? A. I do not re- 
member. 

Q. Didn't you, at the end of about four months, intimate 
that you were going to close up this arrangement ? A. Pos- 
sibly, I did. 

Q. And you think because he did not make the thing a suc- 
cess in four months, he failed ? A. He said liimself before 
taking it, if he did not in a limited time 

Q. Speaking of Major Corwin, you thought he was a failure 
because he did not, in four months, make the paper a success? 
A. In the time he was occupied, I don't remember whether — 
about six months, I think it was. 

Q. When Dr. Talmage said, if he did not make it a success, 
he would edit it for nothing, was there any intimation how 



81 



long a time he was to have to make it a success ; anything 
suggested? A. At the time the arrangement was made, or just 
prior to it, he said, in Major Corwin's presence, that he would 
at once bring a large amount — several thousand dollars — of 
advertising, which would not otherwise be secured, 

Q. Do you mean to say that because within that four 
months he did not show that his administration was to be a 
success, that you had really a valid claim on Dr. Talmage to 
edit the paper for nothing ? 

(Objected to on the ground that the witness has not said he 
had decided at the end of four months.) 

Q. Did you not say so ? A. I don't remember that any such 
notice was given. 

Q. But at the end of six months, at the longest; now, do 
you mean to say that because he had not, in taking hold of a 
new business, in six months established his competency there, 
that you had a valid claim on Dr. Talmage to edit that paper 
for nothing? A. Mr. Corwin said 

Q. No ; answer the question ; do you mean to say you had, 
at the end of that six months, a fair claim on Dr. Talmage to 
edit the paper for nothing ? A. We did not urge any claim. 

Q. I did not ask you that, but do you now consider you had 
such a claim at the end of the six months ? A. I think we 
had, in view of the assurance given by Mr. Corwin and by 
Mr. Talmage. 

Q. You think after six months' trial that Talmage ought to 
have stepped in and edited your paper for nothing ; now let 
me ask you, did you ever write to Mr. Corwin in these words : 

"Letters from Brother Hawley, Secretary, have kept me 
pretty well advised in regard to the improved condition of af- 
fairs. I should have written you before to have congratulated 
you on the measure of success you have already attained. ' 
Did you ever write to Mr. Corwin in that way after he be- 
gan ? A. I think I did. 

Q. That is elated January 4th, 1876 ; what time was it when 
Mr. Corwin began ? A. In October, I believe. 

Q. Then, after about half the time had gone by, you thought 
he was making a success? A. I did from the representations 
which I received from the office. 
11 



82 



Q. Did he fall off after that three months? A. I don't know 
whether there was a falling off or not ; the statement that was 
sent me by Mr. Cor win, showing a material advance in the 
advertising receipts, was not found to be correct ; I wrote as I 
did upon information, which upon subsequent inquiry at the 
office, was not found to be in accordance with the facts. 

Q. You were under a mistake then, when you spoke in your 
letter to him of the success he had attained ? A. I was. 

Q. You were led into that mistake by what was told you at 
the office ? A. What was written from the office. 

Q. Whom by ? A. By Mr. Corwin and by Mr. Hawley ; at 
the commencement of the year there was as usual a large num- 
ber of subscribers received, and the prospects were encourag- 
ing ; Mr. Hawley wrote accordingly. 

Q. I will come back to the subject- of those letters again ; I 
wish to continue what I was asking you about ; I want to ask 
you on one other point ; wdrat was the state of your negotiation 
with Dr. Taylor on the 9th day of October ; how far had you 
carried it ? A.I did not see Dr. Taylor at that time. 

Q. About that time how far had you and Dr. Taylor come 
to terms about his taking the position that he took on the 10th 
day of October ? A. The arrangement was not made by me 
with Dr. Taylor. 

Q. Had you no negotiation with him ? A. There had not 
been. 

Q. Who was it made by? A. Mr. Bright, the managing 
editor, I think. 

Q. Y 7 ou knew it was going on ? A. I did. 

Q. Did you know then what the state of that negotiation 
was, about this 9th day of October, how far they had come to 
terms ? A. I did not know at that time. 

Q. You did not know whether the thing was virtually con- 
summated or still very doubtful ? A. I did not, until a day or 
two later. 

Q. Who went up to finally close the matter on that 10th day 
of October, with Dr. Taylor ? A. I think Mr. Bright. 

Q. It was so far then already completed that it took, how 
long to close it on that day ? A. I don't know that it was 
closed on that day. 



83 



Q. Was not he announced as editor on that day in the paper ? 
A. I think be was announced ; but I don't think he assumed 
editorial management. 

Q. Do ycu mean to say that announcement was unauthor- 
ized that he was then editor ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Then he was editor on that day ? A. He was. . 

Q. And you think it took, how many hours, to go up and 
close the matter after you found Dr. Talmage had written his 
good-bye there; did it take an hour? A. I don't know ; I 
presume not. 

Q. Had you told Dr. Talmage that this matter was so ripe 
with Dr. Taylor as that ; had you intimated it to Dr. Talmage ; 
let me ask you first, bad you told him that you were in nego- 
tiations then with Dr. Taylor ? A. On the 9th ? 

Q. Yes, sir. A, No, sir ; for I was not in negotiation. 

Q. I mean with the proprietors ; the proprietors were in ne- 
gotiations, were they not ? A. I think nothing was said to Dr. 
Taylor until after the act of withdrawal. 

Q. About becoming editor ? A. About becoming editor. 

Q. Tbe whole of the bargain was made there on that 10th 
day of October ? A. I think it was made after the act of with- 
drawal. 

Q. Haven't you testified here that something had been 
stated to Dr. Taylor in the contingency — : — 

Mr. Crosby (Interrupting).) No, sir ; he corrected that. 

A. That is distinctly with reference to the review of the 
Sunday School lessons. 

Q. You have stated that the negotiation that was going on 
between you and Mr. Hallock, virtually selling the paper out, 
had not been announced to Dr. Talmage ? A. It had not been 
by me ; I had understood from Mr. Hallock that Mr. Talmage 
was cognizant of the fact that he was negotiating for the pur- 
chase of the paper. 

Q. You learned that from Mr. Hallock ? A. I so under- 
stood that from Mr. Hallock. 

Q. Hadn't you negotiated with others without telling Dr. 
Talmage ? A. I had made inquiry. 

Q. You had negotiated with Mr. Wanamaker ? A. I had 
talked with Mr. Wanamaker with reference to it. 



84 



Q. You did not tell that to Dr. Talmage ? A. I did not. 

Q. Now, I want to ask you if you did not consider that it 
was due to Dr. Talmage, as editor in-chief of that paper, and a 
stockholder in that paper, that you should go to him and tell 
him that this thing was already to be sprung upon him ? A. I 
did not." 

Q. You did not think that was due to him either as editor 
or stockholder ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you mean to say you did not think it due from you 
as the chief owner of that paper, knowing that there was a 
negotiating virtually completed for a sale of the paper, to let 
Dr. Talmage know, either as editor or stockholder, that that 
was the fact ? A. I did not ; in view of the fact that the party 
who was purchasing the paper was one who had previously 
been introduced to me by Dr. Talmage, with reference to pur- 
chasing it, and who had been recommended as a suitable man 
to take the paper. 

Q. Would that fact — the fact that he was introducing him 
to you — make him cognizant of the fact that you had come to 
terms with each other? A. It would not. 

Q. Hadn't he any interest in knowing whether that paper 
was going to be sold out under his feet within twenty-four 
hours ? A. I do not consider it as being sold out from under 
him. 

Q. But you were going to let him take his fate, either to be 
employed or not as Mr. Hallock might think best ? A. I un- 
derstood Mr. Hallock that Dr. Talmage would probably re- 
main with him. 

Q. That is all you cared about it ? A. It is all I thought 
necessary to care about it. 

Q. Now, let me ask your attention to another point ; you 
say that that editorial was suppressed with your concurrence ? 
A. It was. 

Q. Had any body a right in your presence to do that with- 
out your authority ? A. I don't know that they had. 

Q. Don't you know that they had not? A. They would not 
have done it if I had objected or protested, I presume. 

Q. I want to ask you then if you had any authority — let me 
ask you this question first : as editor-in-chief, had Dr. Talmage 
control of the editorial columns ? A. He had. 



85 



Q. Had you any right, while he remained editor-in-chief, to 
interfere at all with the editorial columns, under your contract 
when you made him editor-in-chief ? A. I thought that I had 
under the circumstances. 

Q. Do you mean to say that you had a right as a stock- 
holder and proprietor, say of that paper, as the owner of that 
paper, to control the editorial columns of the paper ? A. I 
consider that under the circumstances I had. 

Q. I don't say now about any circumstances ; do you mean 
to say that is the right of the owner of the paper ? A. I think 
it is. 

Q. Then you consider an editor to write everything he 
writes by permission ? A. What is the question ? 

Q. You consider Dr. Talmage wrote everything he wrote^ 
then, in that paper, by your permission? A. Not that. 

Q. What do you mean then by saying that as owner you 
had a right to order anything out ? A. I considered that in 
the position I occupied I would have that right. 

Q. Then I ask you the other question again ; don't you 
mean to say that whatever he put in or published he put in by 
your permission ? A. I do not so understand it. 

Q. If you had a right to order anything out that he put in, 
then everything went in under your permission ? A. It might 
be so if I was present to inspect everything that went in. 

Q. You mean to say that if anything got in without your 
permission it must have got in surreptitiously ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Without your knowledge, I mean ? A. No, sir. 

Q. And do you know that Dr. Talmage, when he consented 
to take the editorial chair in chief in that paper, meant to be 
your subordinate ? A. I do not think he did. 

Q. Do you think he meant to edit that paper 

Mr. Crosby — I did not catch the question. 

Q. The question is this : Did you when you employed Dr. 
Talmage, consider he was to come in there and edit the paper 
as your subordinate? A. I did not ; I did not employ him. 

Q. Did you consider that to be the understanding between 
the proprietors of.the paper and Dr. Talmage? A. No, sir. 

Q. You understood the arrangement was then that he was 
to control those columns, didn't you ? A. Yes, sir ; in a sense. 



86 



Q. In what sense wasn't he to control? A. He was not to 
control them to the injury of the paper. 

Q. Do you mean to say that you could remedy anything of 
that kind in any other way than by discharging him ? A. That 
would have been the most direct way. 

Q. Wasn't that the only way you knew of that you could do 
it without violating your contract ; I say to discharge Dr. Tal- 
mage ; was not that the only way you could prevent him from 
abusing Lis position without violating: your contract? A. I 
suppose it was. 

Q, Didn't you violate your contract then when you ordered 
out an editorial that he put in while he was editor-in-chief ? 
A. I did — in that sense. 

Q. I want to ask you one other question, sir ; I want to ask 
you if you have stated here on the trial of this cause ; have you 
sworn that Dr. Talmage had anything whatever to do with the 
insertion of that advertisement of the Advance ; have you stated 
that here on this trial ? A. I have not. 

Q. Have you ever said it? A. I don't know that I have. 

Q. Have you not stated it in a public letter ? A. I may have 
said it. 

Q. Don't say that ; do you remember ? A. I don't remember 
whether I did or not. 

Q. Let me read you a sentence and see if you recognize it as 
something you ever stated or wrote : 

" At the same time our advertising columns were tampered 
with, a large advertisement being taken out and Dr. Talmage's 
announcement inserted. The fact that Dr. Talmage prearranged 
with the pressmen to paj T all expenses incurred by his extra- 
ordinary action, by no means mitigates the offense." 

Did you ever say anything like that ? A. I don't remember 
of writing that. 

Q. Do you think you did not write it ? A. I think I did 
not. 

Q. Do you remember any open letter of yours ever being 
published ? A. Yes, sir ; I don't remember just such language 
in it. 

Q. Just look at that ; I am not sure it is in your open letter, 
but it is something signed by yourself and other officers ; just 



87 



see if you recognize that (handing book to witness) ? A. Which 
is it ? 

Q. That is it at the bottom. A. That was not in the open 
letter. 

Q. But did you give that to the public ? A. It went into 
the paper I believe. 

Q. With your consent ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Doesn't that state that that advertisement was put in by 
Dr. Talmage ? A. It was so understood at the time. 

Q. Does not that state it ? A. I believe it does. 

Q. Do you now state it ? A. I do not now. 

Q. Did you have any good ground for stating that to the 
public at that time ? A. I thought that we did. 

Q. What was it ? A. The manner in which the valedictory 
was inserted, and the whole circumstances connected witli the 
night edition — extra edition that was issued. 

Q. The fact that it went in at the same time as the valedic- 
tory made you think he put it in ? A. It did. 

Q. Let me ask you ; suppose the negotiation between Dr. 
Talmage had been what I said, that he had been in negotiation 
with them about taking a place on their paper, and suppose he 
learned that day that your paper had changed hands, or was 
changing hands, and he had gone to the Advance people, and 
closed at once with them ; was there anything improbable 
in the fact, that they then knowing the fact, that Dr. Talmage 
was going out, should get up an electrotype on that very day 
referring to that fact, and referring to his editorial, and getting 
it in by their shrewdness ; is that an impossible thing? A. It 
is not an impossible thing. 

Q. You do not know that that was not the case, do you ? A. 
I did not know it. 

Q. You do not mean to say you had no knowledge that Dr# 
Talmage had any suspicion of this shrewdness on the part of 
the proprietors of the Advance ? A. I don't know that it was 
a shrewd act on their part. 

Q. What, of getting into your paper the knowledge that Dr. 
Talmage was going into their paper ? A. That it was their 
act. 

Q. On the supposition that he had been in treaty with them, 



88 



and suddenly learned that you were selling out, had gone there 
and said he would close with them ; is it improbable that they 
should have at once prepared an advertisement to give out 
to the public, in connection with the editorial, they knew he 
was going to put in ? A. Nothing improbable or impossible. 

Q. Yet while that was a possible alternative, you made the 
bold and naked statement in the public prints that Dr. Tal- 
mage did that, did you ? A. We did it because 

Q. Don't give your reasons ; you did make the naked state- 
ment that he did it ? A. It was so made. 

Q. Now, Mr. Remington, did you ever make inquiry of your 
own employees whether that advertisement did not come in 
through the regular business channel ? A. I did not ; I did 
not consider it — 

Q. No, sir ; well, without making any inquiry? 

Dr. Chosby — I beg your pardon, the witness was not through 
speaking. 

Q. Go on? A. I had nothing directly to do with the em- 
ployees in the office ; I was not in the habit of communicating 
with them. 

Q. Did you make any inquiry anywhere as to how that ad- 
vertisement got into your paper ? A. I did not personally ; I 
supposed that those in the office, by whom this statement was 
prepared, had made such inquiry. 

Q. You do not know that they had, do you ? A. I do not 
know, positively. 

Q. You mean to say, then, that upon the mere supposition 
— by the way ; did you ask them if they made inquiry ? A. 
I do not remember. 

Q. Without then, making any inquiry yourself, or asking 
them if they had made any inquiry, you charged a minister of 
the gospel with putting wrongfully an advertisement into your 
paper, and let that go all over the land, did you? A. Not 
intentionally. 

Q. I did not ask your intentions ; did you do that thing 
without any inquiry, or knowing that anybody else had made 
inquiry on the subject ? A. It was put in, with the full belief 
on the part of myself. 

Q. I am not questioning your sincerity ; did you allow that 



89 



charge to go out to the public without either making any in- 
quiry yourself or knowing that any of the other gentlemen had 
asked as to whether it went through the regular business chan- 
nel ; did you, then, without having made any inquiry yourself, 
or knowing that any of those that signed it with you, had 
made the slightest inquiry as to whether it had not come in 
through the regular business channel, charge that Dr. Tal- 
mage put it in surreptitiously in the public papers ? A. It 
appears to have been done without our inquiry. 

Q. Don't you know that thing has done more to prejudice 
Dr. Talmage in the eyes of this community than any other 
one thing published ? A. I do not. 

Q. Now, my question is, didn't you know that the publish- 
ing of that statement has done more to create the common 
fame alluded to in this trial than any other one thing ? A. I 
do not ; as that article was read, I did not see that it distinctly 
charges that Dr. Talmage did put ia the advertisement ; as 
you read the article, it appeared to me that it was not dis- 
tinctly stated that the advertisement was put in ; it might be 
the inference. 

Q. Let me read to you whether it does not state it in so 
many words : " At the same time our advertising columns were 
tampered with, a large advertisement being taken out, and Dr. 
Talmage's advertisement inserted. The fact that Mr. Talmage 
prearranged with the pressmen to pay all the expenses in- 
curred by his extraordinary action" — what does jhat refer to, 
in that connection ; the expenses of what ? A. The expense 
of running the presses. 

Q. What were the extraordinary expenses ; for printing 
what ? A. For printing the extra edition. 

Q. " The fact that Mr. Talmage prearranged with the press- 
men to pay all the expenses incurred by his extraordinary ac- 
tion" — what is that action ? A. The expenses incurred by his 
extraordinary action were the expenses involved in the running 
of the presses all night. 

Q. What made it necessary to run the presses all night ; 
what change in the paper ? A. The insertion of the valedic- 
tory and the advertisement. 
12 



90 



Q. Then you state, do you not here, that he paid the ex- 
penses for putting those two things in ? A. That he did. 

Q. Don't that charge it on him directly ? A. The payment 
of it does not clearly indicate that he put in the advertisement 
himself. 

Q. Now I ask you, didn't you understand when you pub- 
lished that in that connection, that you did charge it upon 
him ? A. I did, for I supposed that it was done by him. 

Q. And you now say that you had not made inquiry, nor 
anybody else ? A. So far as I know. 

Q. About what was the subscription list of that paper when 
Dr. Talmage became connected with it? A. I do not know. 

Q. Now answer the question ; the question is, had the sub- 
scription list been increased or diminished by the editorial 
conduct of the paper on Dr. Talmage's part ? A. It had been 
increased whether by the editorial conduct or by the large ex- 
penditure of money in connection with it, or both, was a ques- 
tion. 

Q. What is your impression now as to the producing cause 
of that increase ; which had the most to do with it ? A. I 
don't know that I have any definite opinion ; I think perhaps 
one, as much as the other. 

Q. Could Dr. Talmage touch the financial interests of the 
paper in any other way than by ably editing the paper ? A. 
No, sir ; I think not. 

Q. Did not he ably edit it? A. There might be a difference 
of opinion in reference to that. 

Q. I ask your opinion ; did he ably edit that paper? A. In 
some respects I think he did, but in other respects not. 

Q. Take it as a whole, did you think that he edited it ably ? 
A. I can hardly say that I did so regard it. 

Q. Do you remember a circular to be addressed to subscrib- 
ers, in which Dr. Talmage's able management of the paper was 
made one of the inducements ? A. I do not remember the cir- 
cular ; I did not prepare it. 

Q. Here is the one which I had in view ; do you recognize 
that, as issued by the paper? A. I judge from the appear- 
ance of it, that it is one that was issued. 

Q. In the fall of 1876 this was issued : " The spirited edi- 



91 



torials of Dr. Talinage are always acceptable reading; his 
sermons have the hearty approbation of the Christian pub lie 
and are sought for with great eagerness by thousands of regu-, 
lar readers ;" you, as owner of that paper sent that out, did 
you not ? A. I did not. 

Q. You knew it went out from the paper? A. I may or may 
not have seen it. 

Q. Do you remember it ; do you think that might have gone 
out without your knowing it ? 

Mr. Crosby — May I refresh the witness' memory to get at 
the truth ; I want him to tell the exact truth, and I think he 
does not remember. 

Q. Now I ask you, knowing your relations to the paper, do 
you mean to say that a circular like that could have gone out 
from the paper without your knowing it ? A. It might have 
done so. 

Q. Do you think it probable? A. Not probable. 

Q. You think it probable then that that went out without 
your knowledge and consent? A. I think very likely it did. 

Q. Now I want to ask you if you think it likely that you 
said or allowed the paper to say that Dr. Talmage's spirited 
editorials and his sermons were a great attraction to the paper, 
how do you square that with what you now say, that you do 
not think on the whole he edited it well. 

Mr. Crosby — He did not say he edited it well, he said ably. 

Q. Well ably ; how 7 do you now square those two things to- 
gether ? A. The circulars that are sent out in the way of ad- 
advertisements make the recommendations quite as large usu- 
ally as the facts will warrant ; sometimes larger. 

Q. They are not supposed then to tell the truth? A. Not 
fully ; not always. 

Q. You mean to say then that you are in a habit of sending 
out circulars from your place of business that tell falsehoods*? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. When I asked you if you could square those two things 
together, didn't you explain it by saying that circulars of that 
kind always state the thing quite as favorably as they can ? A. 
Substantially that. 

Q. Did yon mean to say by that that they go beyond the 
truth ? A. They may sometimes go beyond the actual facts. 



92 



Q. Now, then, I ask you the other question ; is it your habit 

to send out circulars, out of your place of business that do not 
tell the truth ; is it your habit to do that ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Have you ever done it knowingly ? A. No, sir. 

The following communication was received from the wit- 
nesses to whom second citations were issued, and after being 
read to the Presbytery, was laid upon the table for the pres- 
ent. 

Brooklyn, March 25th, 1879. 

To the Brooklyn Presbytery : 

The undersigned beg to acknowledge the receipt of your 
second citation, and while intending no disrespect, have only 
to reiterate their determination not to appear as witnesses in 
the impending trial. We feel that the suggestion of excluding 
us from the rights of the Church if we fail to appear is scarcely 
called for when nothing can be said against our moral charac- 
ters, and we refuse simply on grounds of propriety. Although 
it may be deemed rank impertinence on our part to express 
the opinion, we venture to say we do not believe in the pres- 
ent trial. For a long time we occupied the most intimate re- 
lations with the Kev. T. De Witt Talmage, and have seen him 
under many trying phases, when there was forced on us Paul's 
reminder that " he was a man of like passions with ourselves." 
Still we never saw, in any or all his variances, sufficient premises 
on which to demand his trial and become his accusers. We are 
charitable enough to believe and say that the errors of utter- 
ance and act of the Rev. T. De Witt Talmage arise in part from 
his own impulsive nature, but in main may be attributed to 
the ill guidance and advice of a friend whose wisdom more 
often betrays than benefits. In view of the fact that some of 
the parties connected with the specifications never thought 
their grievances worthy of action, it does seem as if your hon- 
orable body were engaged in neither a work of duty nor neces- 
sity. 

In this human world of ours, would it not be well to read 
and seriously ponder over the record of a Court of Jesus 
Christ, at which He Himself presided, before whom was hur- 
ried one caught in sin, and to whose accusers were given the 
memorable instruction and reproval : " He that is without sin 



93 



among you, let him first cast a stone." " And they which heard 
it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by 
one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last." 

(Signed) B.F.COGSWELL, 

ALEXANDER PEARSON, 
WARREN S. SILLCOCK, 
DANIEL TALMAGE, 
ROBERT S. HOBBS, 
JOHN F. TALMAGE. 

March 28th, 1879. 

Presbytery met March 28th, at 3 P. M. 

The witness, Mr. E. Bemington, requested the privilege of 
making a brief statement to the Presbytery, which being 
granted, he stated that his condition of health and of mind 
yesterday was such that he failed clearly to understand some 
of the questions addressed to him on the cmss-examination, 
and did himself injustice in the replies which were given. 

The counsel for the defence announced they had no more 
questions to ask the witnesses at present. 

The Rev. Mr. Crosby then introduced the redirect-examin- 
ation. 

Q. Did you believe you had injured Dr. Talmage in the 
matter of his retirement from the paper? A. I did not. 

Q. Do you now believe that you injured him in the matter 
of his retirement ? A. I do not. 

Q. Did you consider that he injured you and wronged you 
by retiring from the paper in the manner in which he did ; 
please state the nature of the injury and wrong upon w T hich 
you founded your feeling of moral dislike towards Dr. Tal- 
mage concerning his withdrawal from the Christian at Work? 
A. I regarded the fact of Dr. Talmage's withdrawal as he did, 
from a paper with which he had been so closely identified, 
that had been known familiarly as Dr. Talmage's paper, to 
protect the credit of which I had expended many thousands of 
dollars, not expecting any return,! felt indignant and outraged 
in my own feelings that Dr. Talmage, under all these circum- 
stances, should withdraw from the paper in the manner he did ; 
it was no pecuniary wrong or loss to me, but I felt hurt in my 
feelings and indignant, as I believe I had a right to be. 



94 

Q. "Were you a minister of the gospel at that time ? A. I 
was not. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage ? A. He was. 

Q. So far as you know, did Dr. Talmage ever seek you, to 
make explanations to you or to get explanations from you ? 
A. Never. 

Q. You received, then, no example of Christian charity from 
him in this matter ? A. I did not. 

Q. Was the paper a profitable investment for you ? A. It 
was not. 

Q. Were you losing money on it ? A. I was, quite largely. 

Q. Now, at the time when Dr. Talmage left the paper, was 
there a large indebtedness upon it? A. There was. 

Q. Was Mr. Talmage one of the shareholders or stockhold- 
ers ? A. He was. 

Q. Who paid off that indebtedness ? A. I paid it. 

Q. Entirely? A. Entirely. 

Q. Out of your own pocket ? A. I did. 

Q. Did Mr. Talmage, who was a shareholder in the paper, 
assist you in paying off that indebtedness ? A. He did not. 

Q. How was that indebtedness largely incurred ? A. By his 
own salary of $4,000, which was paid up to the first of June 
preceding the time of his withdrawal from the paper, and by 
the payment of a similar salary of $4,000 to Mr. Corwin, who 
was put into the position of publisher at his special and ear- 
nest request. 

Q. Why did you allow the " A. L. Ford" advertisement to 
be inserted ? A. Because of a desire to be relieved of the 
burden I was sustaining, and of putting the paper into the 
hands of some one who, by personal experience as a publisher, 
might make it self-sustaining. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage, as far as you know A. I might 

add, in reply to that other question, that with a further 
desire, from the assets of the paper, the sale of the subscription 
list, that the indebtedness, which was quite large — the floating 
indebtedness— might be canceled ; I am glad to say, in that 
connection, that it has been in fall, principal and interest, every 
dollar ; although the sale at the time it was consummated was 
under peculiar and embarrassing circumstances which ought 



95 

« 

not to have existed, and which in my own opinion, to some 
extent lessened the amount which was realized from the 
assets. 

Q. Was that advertisement which you admitted a dis- 
guised advertisement, was it disguised in order that Mr. Tal- 
mage might not know what it referred to ? A. By no means. 

Q. Do you know whether Mr. Talinage was acquainted with 
Mr. Alford ? A. I don't know whether he was personally ac- 
quainted or not. 

Q. Do you know whether he knew of your relations to Mr. 
Alford '? A I think he did ; he was in and out of the store at 
different times while I was there ; whether he met Mr. Alford 
or not, I don't know ; I don't know whether he was personally 
acquainted with him or not. 

Q. Now as to that dating back ; what made you think the 
date of that letter which you received about the 15th of Octo- 
ber, 1876, from Dr. Talmage, da'ed October 5th and postmarked 
October 9th, what made you think it was dated back ? A. My 
first impression was derived from the difference between the 
date of the letter and the postmark; and that opinion was more 
fully confirmed by statements that appeared within several 
weeks thereafter, which assumed to be at least the utterances 
of Dr. Talmage and were left uncontradicted by him, and which 
were false. 

Q. Now, please state what facts led you to feel justified in 
making the statement which was shown to you yesterday in re- 
gard to Mr. Talmage's having dated back that letter? A. 
There were several statements that appeared in the papers at 
that time, one of which appeared in the World under the title 
of " Dr. Talmage's Defence ;" another appeared in one of the 
other papers,, the name of whieh I do not just at this moment 
recall ; there were several articles that appeared ; the one 
that I have in mind that I recall now was a letter written ap- 
parently in the way of apology or defence of Dr. Talmage by a 
Mr. McKelway ; it appeared, I think, in the New York Times, 
containing some gross misstatements. 

Q. Was there anything else besides that letter of Mr. McKel- 
way's? A. There were similar statements, I think, some of 
which appeared in the Brooklyn Eagle and some other papers, 



96 



Q. What others have you mentioned ? A. The article that 
appeared in the World under the title of " Dr. Talmage's De- 
fence," and another letter which appeared in the New York 
Times, I believe, written by a Mr. McKelway, a member at 
that time, I believe, and officer in Dr. Talmage's church. 

Q. These statements led you to conclude that you were 
justified in making publicly such a statement about Dr. Tal- 
mage? 

Q. Identify that paper, please (handing a paper to the wit- 
ness) ? A. It is the World; it is a copy of the World which 
contains, in an article about a column long, a certain portion 
entitled " Dr. Talmage's Defence." 

Q. Will you mark the portion that influenced your mind 
around in blue pencil ? A. The whole paragraph ? 

Q. Yes, the whole paragraph. A. (Heading.) "There is a 
" member of the company owning the paper," said Mr. Tal- 
mage, " who takes an active part in its business management, 
" and, by reason of his being one of the largest stockholders ? 
" he has endeavored to dictate what the tone of the paper 
" should be, and has otherwise interfered with its editorial 
" work. His views and sentiments are not at all congenial to 
" me, and after suffering considerable annoyance from that 
" source I signified my intention of resigning my position. 
" That was nearly a year ago. Since then I have twice at- 
" tempted to sever my connection with the paper, but at the 
*' solicitation of other members of the Board of Trustees, 
" and through pacific overtures from the one mentioned, 
" I have been induced to remain. My last attempt was made 
" in June, when I prepared a short farewell card similar to the 
" one now published. I handed it to the management, and it 
" was placed in type, but they would not allow it to appear in 
" the paper. I finally concluded to hold my position until 
" October, and informed them of the fact, the turbulent stock- 
" holder agreeing to cease his petty annoyances. * * * * 
« # # * ■ * j was p res id en t of the Board of Trustees, yet 
" yet when this gentleman found I was determined to leave the 
" paper he tried to sell it without the knowledge or consent of 
" the other joint owners. He hawked the paper about New 
" York, Philadelphia, and other cities. When I found out 



97 
« 

" what he was doiDg he wanted me to negotiate a sale for the 
" paper, but I refused the responsibility, though I brought to 
" him several trustworthy parties who made him bona fide 
" offers, which he refused. Last week he went to Philadelphia 
" and tried to sell the paper." These are a few paragraphs, 
and all it is essential to read. 

Q. Now, you said there was a letter by St. Clair McKelway, 
in The Neio York Times, October 5, 1876 (Handing Neiv York 
Times to witness). A. Yes, sir ; it is a letter from Mr. 
McKelway, headed " The Times and Dr. Talmage ; it was 
called forth, I think, by a rather severe article that appeared 
in The Times, and was written by way of apology and defence, 
I think. 

(Heading.) " After this agreement the proprietors conveyed 
" their property to another secretly, and with the presumable 
" intent of dropping Dr. Talmage out, without notice, suddenly, 
'' before the time agreed on, and in a way that would have in- 
" juriously and unjustly affected him. He learned of this con- 
" spiracy, as I do not hesitate to call it, and dropped himself 
" out on the very last day in which the proprietors he was 
<; serving were the proprietors. * * * * 

" The change of name business is just as simple. The 
" proposition of last March, was this : In case the Christian 
" at Work Company failed, and that paper stopped, to get out 
" a duplicate, to be called Christian Work, leaving out the 
" £ at ' as being an awkward word in an imprimature. This 
" proposition was made entirely contingent, and for the pur- 
" pose of securing subscribers to the Christian at Work, from 
" the loss of the papers for which they had paid a year in ad- 
" vance, on the strength of the fact that Dr. Talmage was the 
" editor of the paper. It was designed to procure the full 
" consent of the Christian at Work people to the modification 
" of that name, and to settle with them for the subscriptions, 
" turning over to them all the moneys that had come in before 
" the change should have taken place, and arranging to assume 
" all the expenses and receipts after the proposed change. 
" The mailing list was only mentioned, and it was openly men- 
" tioned, as a means whereby every subscriber whom a stop- 
" page of the paper in March would injure, could be assuredly 
13 



98 
# 

" guaranteed a paper of the kind he had paid for, for the rest 
" of the year. My knowledge on this matter is also personal 
" and complete, because my counsel was solicited at the time 
" and upon the facts, just as I here give them. * In 

" that interview, on learning the causes impelling Dr. Talmage 
" to his retirement, Mr. Hallock approved of it, and of the 
" manner of it, and he was also made the bearer of this offer 
" from Dr. Talmage to Mr. Remington. Mr. Remington to 
" select any five evangelical ministers he pleased, as a Board 
" to consider the facts in the case of the retirement ; Dr. Tal- 
" mage to justify his action to the minds of every one of these 
" five ministers, or failing to satisfy any one of them, to make 
*' apology and reparation all around, as such a one might pre- 
" scribe." That is all I care to read. 

(The article is marked Plaintiff's Exhibit H, of this date.) 

Q. Is there anything else, sir ? A. There were other articles 
very similar ; I do not know as it is essential to give anything 
further. 

Q. You do not remember any ? A. I do not remember any 
specially. 

Q. It was in consequence, as you have already stated, as the 
result of reading these statements that you have read to us, 
that you felt yourself justified in making the statement that 
was referred to in your evidence of yesterday? A. In conse- 
quence of these articles that I have read and others of similar 
character, and the further fact previously referred to, of the 
discrepancy between the date of the letter and the postmark. 

Q. Did you take any steps to find out whether Dr. Talmage 
was responsible for these things ? A. I did. 

Q. State what steps you took? A. I first addressed a letter 
to Dr. Talmage, sending it by special messenger, as has been 
previously called out in the testimony ; receiving no reply, I 
subsequently published the substance of that letter or note 
which was addressed to Dr. Talmage, in an open letter in the 
World. 

Q. Is that the note (handing the New York World to the 
witness) ? A. That is the note. 

Mr. Crosby — I offer that in evidence. It is the open letter 
Mr. Remington addressed to Dr. Talmage, published in the 
New York World, Monday, October 23, 1876 : 



99 



" Eev. T. De Witt Talmage : 

" Sir, — I addressed a note sending it by messenger to you 
" at your residence, Friday, the 10th inst., inclosing a portion 
" of the article that appeared in the World the day before, 
" wherein, under the title, Dr. Talmage's Advance, certain state- 
" ments were made concerning your relations with a paper 
"known as the Christian at Work, and the circumstances of 
" your withdrawal from the same. In my note I requested 
" you to inform me, if you indorsed the statements in the article 
" referred to as true. I received no reply, and numerous other 
" misstatements having since appeared with your apparent en- 
" dorsement, I now pronounce the assertions made in your so- 
" called defence, essentially false, and request you to say pub- 
" licly over your own name, whether you endorse them as true, 
" and intend to apply them, so far as they are of a personal 
" character, to the undersigned ? 

" E. KEMINGTON. 

" New York, October 21, 1876." 

Q. Did you receive any reply to either of these letters ? 
A. I did not ; I may say in this connection, before publishing 
the open letter, that though I felt impelled to publish, I 
waited, I think, about one month. 

Q. Do you remember the date of that open letter ? A.. I 
believe it was November 16. 

Q. What was the date of the paper, the New York World, in 
which Dr. Talmage's defence appeared ? A. October 12. 

Q. Over a month ? A. Something over a month. 

Q. Was there anything in the name, St. Clair McKelway, 
signed to the Times article, which led you to think that Dr. 
Talmage was connected with that statement ? A. I knew the 
fact, or ascertained the fact, subsequent to the publication 
of the letter, that the gentleman whose name was attatched to 
it, was a member and. an office bearer, as I understood, in Dr. 
Talmage's church. 

Q. Having received no reply ; no answer to these various 
attempts to get Dr. Talmage's denial, you then felt justified in 
making the statement that you did ? A. I did. 

Q. Now, let us read the valedictory that was put in evidence 
yesterday, or rather put in evidence on the first day : 



100 



(Mr. Crosby reads the editorial headed, " Good Bye, Old 
Friends, etc.") 

When you saw that valedictory, what was your judgment 
of it ? A. My impression was that it was, to use the familiar 
phrase, " a puff of the Advance" that it would work injury to 
the Christian at Work, necessarily. 

Q. Now, sir, you were asked yesterday, whether you, as 
owner of the paper, had any control over the editorial 
columns, and it was finally drawn from you by a circuitous 
and ingenious method, that in some way or other, you had 
done a great injury to Dr. Talmage by having that edition of 
the paper suppressed, which contained that valedictory which 
has just been read ; now, sir, I ask you whether you still 
believe that you did a great injury to Dr. Talmage by that act ? 
A. I do not. 

Q. Now, sir, would any owner of a paper having ordinary 
self-respect allow such a valedictory as that to get in his paper 
even if it was the editor-in-chief and all the other editors 
insisted upon its insertion ? A. I think not. 

Q. And if the editor-in-chief and all the other editors com- 
bined should command that it be put in, w ould not the owner 
be perfectly justified in refusing to let it be put in ? A. I 
think he would ; I will alter it then to sav he would ; he would, 
in my opinion. 

Q. What was the nature of advertisement and the valedic- 
tory ; you were criticised yesterday by the form of the ques- 
tions that were put to you in regard to making a statement 
which implied, or signing a statement which implied that Dr. 
Talmage had inserted the advertisement and the valedictory, 
and you were brought to confess, very properly, that you did 
not know that Dr. Talmage had inserted the valedictory and 
the advertisement ; I suppose you hold to it to-day that you 
do not know that fact ? A. I do not. 

Q. Of your own knowledge ? A. I do not. 

Q. Had vou good reason to believe that he did ? A. I 
had. 

Q. What was that reason? A. The reason that the one 
referred to the other and both were written in a style which 
indicated Dr. Talmage as the author. 



101 



Q. Were there any other circumstances that you learned 
which led you to that conclusion ? A. I remember no other 
circumstances particularly. 

Q. When did you first learn that this valedictory and adver- 
tisement had been inserted ? A. It was the day following ; the 
10th of October, I believe. 

Q. Did you order the presses to stop running ? A. I did 
not personally. 

Q. Were you in the office at the time when the order was 
given ? A. I think I was not in the office at the time ; I visited 
the press-room -the publishing office, and subsequently the 
press room — after the edition had been stopped. 

Q. Did you learn any fact that led you to suppose that Dr. 
Talmage brought that valedictory and advertisement to the 
office — to the composing room — how did you connect Dr. Tal- 
mage with them at all — simply through seeing them? A. 
The fact of which I was informed that the bill for the extra 
labor incurred by this night edition was paid by Dr. Talmage. 

Q. If Dr. Talmage as editor-in-chief had a right to insert 
that valedictory, would be naturally have paid the bill ? A. I 
think not. 

Q. He would have left that for you to pay? A. I think he 
would. 

Q. Did you, under all the circumstances, violate any con- 
tract with Dr. Talmage or any one else in having that edition 
suppressed ? A. I think that there was no violation of the 
contract in spirit, if there was in letter, in view of the circum- 
stances attending it. 

Q. You have stated facts and impressions in regard to the 
insertion of that advertisement and valedictory by Dr. Tal- 
mage ; have the facts or impressions changed ? A. They 
have not. 

Q. After the withdrawal of Dr. Talmage, was there any mod- 
ification of the agreement between you and Mr. Hallock ? A. 
There was not. 

Q. You were asked a great many questions as to Dr. Tal- 
mage's thoughts yesterday ; do you know any of Dr. Tal- 
mage's thoughts ? A. I do not. 

Q. On the 69th page of the evidence we have the following 
questions and answers: 



102 



"Q. Did you ever call Dr. Talmage a liar? A. No, sir, I 
" have not used that term. 

" Q. I simply ask that question ? A. I have not. 

" Q. Did you ever use this word ' falsehood ' as describing 
" this act ? A. I don't know as I have used that term in 
" reference to it. 

" Q. Did you couch that act in this phrase : ' acted deceit- 
" fully?' A. I may have used that or an equivalent phrase. 

" Q. Did you use that one ? A. I don't remember using just 
" those words. 

" Q. Then it seems, as far as the act was before you, and 
" your knowledge of it was concerned, it never suggested 
" either of those words, £ falshood,' or ' acted deceitfully ; ' 
" that is an invention of a subsequent date ? 

" (Objected to.) 

" Neither of those phrases ' falsehood,' or ' acted deceit- 
" fully,' were on your lips as descriptions of this act of with- 
" clrawal to injure or wrong — words of that kind ? A. I did 
" think there was deceit in the manner of withdrawal, the acts 
" or circumstances attending it, but never applied this word 
" 'falsehood,' in application to the act; I don't know that I 
" used that word ' falsehood ' in connection with it." 

Q. Do you know that you did not use the word deceit ; you 
say that you do not know that you did use the word deceit ; 
do you know that you did not ? A. I do not ; I don't remem- 
ber ; very probably I did. 

Q. Did you know that Mr. Hallo ?k was negotiating with Dr. 
Talmage in the days previous to the sale ? A. According to 
the best of my recollection, he mentioned that he was not ne- 
gotiating with Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Did you have reason to believe that the sale of the paper 
to Mr. Hallock would be pleasing to Dr. Talmage ? A. I did 
have, as I thought, very satisfactory and conclusive reasons 
for believing that it would be entirely satisfactory to Dr. Tal- 
mage, for the reason that he had written me, endorsing, in 
very strong terms, Mr. Hallock as a suitable man for publisher, 
from his experience in that direction, and his character as an 
evangelical man, and from the knowledge also, as I learn from 
Mr. Hallock, that he had been personally solicited by Dr. Tal- 



103 



mage to take the paper ; from the further^ evidence that he 
was invited by Dr. Talmage to meet certain gentlemen at his 
house, in view of their purchasing the paper ; Mr. Hallock was 
the only gentleman I met there ; from all these circumstances 
combined, I thought that I had very satisfactory evidence, to 
my mind, that it would be quite satisfactory to Dr. Talmage 
for Mr. Halleck to take the paper. 

Q. Did you have any reason to believe that Mr. Talmage's 
interests would suffer in any way from Mr. Hallock ? A. I 
did not ; on the other band I had reason and hoped and be- 
lieved that Mr. Hallock would be able to pay him a better 
salary than I certainly could afford to pay at that time ; that 
is from the proceeds of the paper. 

Q. Why did you insert that advertisement by A. L. Ford ? 
A. I did not insert it. 

Q. Why was it inserted with your connivance, if you will 
take that word ? A. It was inserted with the view of obtain- 
ing a purchaser for the paper. 

Q. Why was it inserted in a disguised form? A. I do not 
know what purpose — what may have influenced Mr. Alford's 
mind ; I only know that it is in business matters a very fre- 
quent occurrence that persons having property which they de- 
sire to sell, advertise it under an assumed name. 

Q. If it had gone out publicly that you were trying to sell 
the Christian at Work, would it have damaged Mr. Talmage's 
interests ? A. I think it would seriously, to have it publicly 
known that the paper with which he was identified as editor, 
and it was very commonly known as Dr. Talmage's paper, was 
advertised and in the market for sale. 

Q. Now, sir, under the solemn position in which you are 
placed, standing here before God and under oath, do you state 
that you in your soul, so far as you know your own mind, are 
utterly unconscious of ever having intentionally wronged Dr. 
Talmage ? A. I am. 

This was followed by a re-cross-examination, at the close of 
which the fitness was dismissed. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Where did you reside in the summer of 1876 ? A. At 
Ilion, Herkimer County. 



104: 



Q, Were you in the habit of making journeys between New 
York and Ilion during that summer ? A. Occasionally. 

Q. Frequently ? A. Not frequently ; I could not say how 
often. 

Q. Do you know, Mr. Remington, that Dr. Talmage paid 
for that advertisement — the Advance advertisement ? A. I 
only know it as it was learned from the printer, Mr. Dodge. 

Q. Did he state that fact to you — that Dr. Talmage paid 
the bill ? A. I believe he stated it in my presence to the gen- 
tleman who accompanied me. 

Q. You said a moment since, that you did not regard Dr. 
Talmage's withdrawal from the Christian at Work as working 
any harm to you ? A. I did not. 

Q. It did not injure the paper at all ? A. It was not my 
paper after his withdrawal. 

Q. Suppose it had continued to be your paper ? A. I do 
not know that it would have resulted in any pecuniary 
damage. 

(Objection is interposed to the witness being asked suppos- 
ititious questions ; objection sustained.) 

Q. Would it have been to the pecuniary damage of the 
paper under the administration of Mr. Halleck ? 

(Same objection and ruling.) 

Q. Did you regard the withdrawal of Dr. Talmage from the 
paper as any injury to it ; any damage to the paper; to the 
character and public standing of the paper ? A. No, sir ; I 
did not. 

Q. You said you were not injured, but indignant at 
his withdrawal ; what made you indignant ? A. I paid 
a good many thousand dollars to meet the salary of 
Dr. Talmage and Mr. Corwin while they were connected 
with the paper, practically, as I told Dr. Talmage, pay- 
ing his salary out of my pocket, as he knew, and I knew that 
the paper could 'not pay it, and after meeting the expenses 
and the burdens connected with the paper as long as I had, I 
felt, and believe I had reason to feel [indignant and outraged 
that he should leave the paper in the manner he did, under all 
those circumstances. 

Q. You were negotiating on the 9th of October for the sale 
of the paper, were you not ? A. No, sir. 



105 



Q. With Mr. Hallock ? A. No, sir ; not on the 9th ; accord- 
ing to my recollection, it was the Friday or Saturday preced- 
ing ; the 9th was Monday ; there may have been some further 
conversation between us, but the negotiation was conducted 
between us on Friday or Saturday ; on Saturday, I believe, 
according to my best recollection. 

Q. About that time ; you have testified before, that the un- 
derstanding between you and Mr. Halleck, was consummated 
on the 9th, and the actual transfer was completed on the next 
day, which would be the 10th, of course? A. It was not com- 
pleted until the 12th ; the actual, legal transfer. 

Q. It was just about the time that Dr. Talmage left? A. It 
was shortly after ; three days after, I believe. 

Q. You intended to sell and transfer the paper ? A. I did. 

Q. Did you converse with Dr. Talmage about it, at all ? A. 
I did not. 

Q. What made you indignant, then, that he should with- 
draw from the paper which you were about to transfer, with- 
out his knowledge ? A. I was indignant because of the cir- 
cumstances connected with it, which I thought were deceitful 
and dishonorable. 

Q. What was there in it deceitful to you ? A. I do not 
know that there is any occasion for replying to that. 

(Objected to, as having been gone over before.) 

Q. I ask you what was the indebtedness of the paper ? A. 
There was a floating indebtedness of about $25,000. 

Q. When Dr. Talmage left ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was its financial condition when he came to the 
paper ? A. I do not remember ; he came in 1873 ; though in- 
terested in the paper, I had little or nothing to do with it at 
the time, and am unable to say ; the officers of the Company 
who have access to the books, will be competent, I presume, 
to testify on that point. 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. Was it increased ? A. After Dr. Talmage came in ? 

Q. Yes, sir. A. It was very largely. 

E. EEMINGTON. 

Eev. A. Peck, and Elders Eaton and Laimbeer were ap- 
14 



106 



pointed a committee to read the testimony to the various 
witnesses, and take their signatures thereto. 

Eev. S. P. Halsey, Kev. J. M. Sherwood, D. D., and Elder 
Hazard were appointed a committee to consider the communi- 
cation of the six witnesses, to whom the second citations were 
issued, to report what action, if any, should be taken in the 
case. 

Presbytery adjourned. 

J. MILTON GKEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



Maech 31st, 1879. 

Presbytery met on March 31, at 3 P. M. 

Henry Dickinson called by the prosecution. The usual form 
of oath being recited by the Moderator, Mr. Dickinson said : 
That is not' an order of affirmation, I affirm to truly, sincerely 
and correctly, to the best of my knowledge and belief answer 
the questions that shall be put to me. 
Mr. Ceosby : 

Q. Where do you reside, Mr. Dickinson? A. In Brooklyn. 
Q. Are you connected with any society of Christians ? A. 
I am. 

Q. What, if you are willing to state ? A. The orthodox 
society of Friends. 

Q. What is your position ? A. A minister in that society. 

Q. How long have you been in that position? A. I do not 
know ; perhaps fifteen years. 

Q. Please state when you became connected with the 
Christian at Work? A. I should think in 1871; I was con- 
nected in 1874 ; previously probably. 

Q. Please state your position in the Christian at Work 
Company ? A. At what time ? 

Q. Give it as you remember it along ? A. In 1874 for some 
months I was the Treasurer of the company when I resigned 
the office, and was appointed treasurer again in the spring of 
1876 ; so remained uutil the company became extinct. 

Q. Did any persons ever come to you in regard to purchasing 
the paper? A. They did. 

Q. By whom were they sent? A. A Doctor Gray of Chicago 
came I understood from Dr. Talmage ; I do not know the 
fact. 



107 



Q. Were there people sent to you by officers of the com- 
pany ? A. Others came to me ; probably sent by officers of 
the company. 

Q. Did you, in the spring .of 1876, have an interview with 
Dr. Talmage ? A. I had many interviews with him. 

Q. Do you remember any interview in particular? A. I 
could not answer that unless it was more defined ; I visited at 
his house and at the office ; he was a Trustee. 

Q. Do you recollect that paper (paper handed to witness) ? 
A. I recollect this paper. 

Q. Is that Dr. Talmage's signature ? A. That is his signa- 
ture signed in my presence. 

Mr. Crosby — I will read this paper and offer it in evidence. 
" This memorandum of agreement made this day, 29th of May, 
" 1876, between Dr. T. D. Talmage and Henry Dickinson on 
" account of the editorship of the Christian at Work. That in 
" future to the end of this year or until either party gives 
" thirty days' notice to the other, Dr. Talmage shall furnish his 
" sermons weekly to the above paper, and do such editorial 
l ' work as shall be agreeable to him, and he shall receive for 
" the same thirty dollars weekly. This agreement to be kept 
" strictly private to themselves and Mr. E Remington, and is 
" made in expectation of some other change in regard to the 
" paper the coming fall, the editorial department remaining 
" under Dr. Talmage's supervision as heretofore. 

T. De W. TALMAGE." 

(The agreement was marked Plaintiff's Exhibit K.) 

Q. Will you please state as nearly as you remember what 
passed at the interview at which this agreement was signed ? 
A. Dr. Talmage's salary for some time previous to that day — 
on that day and sometime previous had been $4,000 a year, 
and the company was not doing a profitable business, and the 
managers thought it was more than could be afforded ; the 
conversation was in relation to a reduction of the salary ; also 
the reduction of service. 

Q. Was there any thing at the interview said specifically 
about Dr. Talmage's retiring from the paper ? A. For some 
time there had been efforts to sell the paper, and therefore I 
presume there was conversations both as to his retiring and 
as to changes in the paper. 



108 

Q. Did he give yon any notice as to when he should retire ? 
A. No, sir ; thirty days' notice in the agreement ; that was the 
contract. 

Q. Did yon urge Mr. Talmage not to retire at that time ? 
A. No, I think not. 

Q. Do you know that you did not? A. I know by my rec- 
ollection that there was no proposition to retire ; no thought 
of retiring ; there was a conversation in regard to the general 
unsettlement of the paper ; the disposition of it and so on ; I, 
as the business manager of the paper (which I did not state in 
connection with my office as Treasurer), in consideration of be- 
ing business manager of the paper then, was very desirous of 
keeping Dr. Talmage as the editorial head of the paper for the 
present ; Dr. Talmage also looked to some change on his part. 

Q. Did Mr. Talmage state to you at that interview that he 
would go out inevitably in October ? A. No, I have no recol- 
lection of such a remark. 

Q. Did he ever tell you that he would inevitably go out at 
any specific time? A. No, I think not. 

Q. Did he ever notify you that he would go out in the fall 
of 1876 ? A. No. 

Q. What was your understanding of this agreement ? A. 
My understanding was that Dr. Talmage remained as editor 
of the paper, with bis name published as the editor of the 
paper, until that relationship was changed at the termination 
of a thirty days' notice on either side. 

Q. Did you have a subsequent interview with Dr. Talmage 
in regard to his plans and purposes concerning the paper ? A. 
Various ones. 

Q. Do you remember any of any importance ; do you re- 
member any specific interview ? A. There was one special 
interview about the 12th of September, when circulars had 
been prepared, having been issued for the coming season, labor 
of obtaining subscriptions and so on ; I, at the request of the 
President of the company, called upon Dr. Talmage at his 
house, showed him one of these circulars, and asked him if 
he had any suggestion to make or change to propose. 

Q. Have you got a copy of the circular ? A. I have it here ; 
that is the circular (handing it to counsel). 

Mr. Crosby — I will read it. 



109 



(The circular is read and marked in evidence " Plaintiff's 
Exhibit L") 

ATTENTION, AGENTS ! 
"THE CHRISTIAN AT WORK." 



Heney Dickinson, Treasurer. 
E. W. Hawley, Secretary. 



T. De Witt Talmage, Editor. 
M. H. Bright, Managing Editor. 

102 Chambers Street, New York 
FALL, 1876. 



We want good people, of either sex, and of any age, 
Who know liow to work, 

Who are not afraid to work, and 

Who want good pay for their work. 

With the present superior inducements offered to subscri- 
bers, and the great advantages offered to Agents, there is now 
a fine chance to work in extending the circulation of 
" THE CHRISTIAN AT WORK." 

The marked success which has attended the life of The 
Christian at Work is an indication of what can be done by the 
vigorous efforts of active and well paid Agents in largely 
increasing the list of its subscribers. 

The spirited editorials of Dr. Talmage are always accepta- 
ble reading. His sermons have the hearty approbation of the 
Christian public, and are sought for with great eagerness by 
thousands of regular readers. 

The Sunday School Lesson Expositions, by Rev. W. M. 
Taylor, D. D., are models of clearness and suggestiveness, 
of both present and permanent value. 

Our corps of able contributors, both in this country and in 
Europe, furnish columns of most valuable and interesting ma- 
terial for those who are interested in any branch of Christian 
work. 

The price of the paper is 

three dollars a year, cash in advance. 

This includes prepayment of postage by us. 

Q. What was the occasion of this circular ? A. That was 
towards the latter end of the year, when the largest number 
of subscribers are received for all such papers ; and this cir- 
cular, issued during September — prepared in the early part of 



110 



September — was for the purpose of procuring agents and sub- 
scribers for the coming year, and therefore it was important 
to know if Dr. Talmage had any suggestion, or whether he 
was likely to leave or make any change. 

Q. I do not know whether you stated whether you went to 
Dr. Talmage's house of your own motion or not ? A. I went 
at the suggestion of the President — at his request. 

Q. You showed this to Dr. Talmage ? A. I did. 

Q. What was his manner in regard to it ? A. That he had 
no change to suggest. 

Q. Did you tell him the object of your visit ? A. I did. 

Q. What was the date of that interview ? A. It was about 
the 12th of September ; it might be the 11th, but I sent the 
report to the President on the 13th. 

Q. When did Mr. Talmage withdraw from the paper ? A. 
I do not know to answer that question ; he published the val- 
edictory in the paper informing the public that he had trans- 
ferred his services, or was going to trausfer his services, or 
was transferring his services, to the Chicago Advance, in the 
issue of the paper dated the 12th of October ; that paper was 
printed on the night of the 9th and 10th of October. 

Q. Did you see that valedictory on the day it came out ? 
A. I did. 

(Counsel reads the editorial.) See page 13. 

Q. Was Mr. Talmage the editor of the Christian at Work ? 
A. He was editor of the Christian at Work under the contract 
which had been presented. 

Q, He was editor of both papers ? A. He was editor of 
the Christian at Work ; I do not know about the other paper. 

Q. That was the evening of October 9th that was put in ; 
what was the date of your interview again with him in the 
fall ? A. From the 10th to the 12th of September. 

Q. Did he then notify you that he intended to go out a 
month before he withdrew, or did he notify you a month be- 
fore he withdrew, that he did not intend to go out ? A. He 
said he had no change to propose to that circular. 

Q. Did he know that there was a proposition to sell the 
paper to Mr. Hallock ? A. Did he know ? 

Q. Yes. A. Certainly. 



Ill 



Q. Did you keep that fact a secret from Mr. Talmage ? A. 
Oh, no. 

Q. Did you inform Dr. Talmage ? A. Dr. Talmage was in 
the office ; didn't need to tell him. 

Q. Was there anything surreptitious about the sale to Mr. 
Hallock? A. No. 

Q. Answer loud, please ? A. No, no, no. 

Q. When was that sale effected ? A. The general terms 
were effected on or previous to the 9th, but to be ratified by a 
meeting of the Trustees, of whom Dr. Talmage was one, on 
the 10th. 

Q. What was necessary to effect the sale ? A. The assent 
of the Trustees, I suppose. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage a Trustee ? A. He was a Trustee. 

Q. Could the paper then have been actually sold without 
his knowledge ? A. No. 

Q. Unless he absented himself from the meeting? A. Yes, 
sir ; unless he absented himself from the meeting. 

Q. Did you see Dr. Talmage on October 9th ? A. I did. 

Q. What time? A. Several times; at noon specially, I re- 
member, twelve or one o'clock, and at four o'clock in the af- 
ternoon. 

Q. How late in the day did you see him in the office ? A. 
About four o'clock — four o'clock or after. 

Q. Did you remain in the office after four o'clock ? A. I 
did. 

Q. Did you see him return after four o'clock to the office ? 
A. He was there at four o'clock or after — I mean shortly 
after. 

Q. ^Was Dr. Talmage regular in his attendance upon the 
meetings of the Board ol Trustees the summer previous to 
his withdrawal? A. No. 

Q. For how long before he withdrew was he irregular ? A. 
A number of months ; I cannot speak to that precisely. 

Q. Do you remember his being at any of the meetings for 
four or five months before he withdrew ? A. He was at one 
meeting not a long time before ; I do not remember how many 
months. 

Q. Was that an unusual circumstance ? A. He had been 



112 



accustomed to attend the meetings of the Trustees, except the 
latter year or portion of the year ; he never attended the whole 
of them always, but generally. 

Q. Who was publisher of the paper between October, 1876, 
and March 31, 1877 ? A. Mr. Hallocktook charge of the paper. 

Q. No ; October, 1875, I guess I mean ? A. October, 1875, 
to March, 1876, Mr. Corwin. 

Q. How did Mr. Corwin come to be publisher ? A. By the 
appointment of the trustees. 

Q. At whose suggestion ? A. At the recommendation of Dr. 
Talmage, the editor. 

Q. In what manner — in what words, as you recollect them, 
did Dr. Talmage recommend him ? A. I do not know that I can 
quote the words ; Dr. Talmage recommended him very 
strongly ; speaking very highly of him ; the company was in 
difficulties ; straitened. 

Q. Did he make any promise in connection with it ? A. 
You want to know whether I heard Dr. Talmage make a pro- 
mise ? 

Q. Yes ; certainly. A. I don't know that I did. 

Q. Can vou give me the debt —the indebtedness of the com- 
pany in various years ? A. The indebtedness of the company 
on January 15, 1874, when the annual return is made, was 
$51,260 ; on January 15, 1875, $60,460 ; being an increase of 
$9,200 ; on January 15, 1876, the indebtedness of the company 
was $79,450, being an increase that year of $18,990. 

Q. Did the indebtedness of the company increase during the 
six months while Mr. Crowin was publisher ? A. Oh, yes ; 
very largely. 

Q. Please tell me when you first learned of the change in 
the paper, and the insertion of the valedictory which has been 
read? A. About ten o'clock on the morning of the 10th of 
October. 

Q. How did you learn it ? A. From the Secretary, Mr. 
Hawley, who came in the office with the information, and, I 
think, a paper in his hand. 

Q. What did you do in consequence ? A. I united with him 
in sending for the president, E. Remington, who was at his 
store in Broadway, was supposed to be ; he came in and we 



113 



consulted together, and considered that it was a very impro- 
per — that it was a very injurious act to the company, and at 
the direction of the president, to whom the business manage- 
ment had been very largely deferred, the edition was sup- 
pressed, and provision made for issuing the paper in the in- 
terests of the company. 

Q. What was the impression made upon your mind by these 
facts ? A. The impression was very unfavorable. 

Q. Can you define that impression more fully? A. It was 
raining the one company that was paying Dr. Talmage as 
editor — it was ruining the one company as far as possible to 
the building up of another. 

Q. Wbat was your impression of Dr. Talmage's conduct in 
this matter? 

Q. What was the impression made upon your mind when 
you first became cognizant of the facts of Dr. Talmage's 
conduct? A. The impression was that our paper, the Chris- 
tian at Work, which we had built up so far with very great cost 
and labor, and employed Dr. Talmage as editor, was being in- 
jured by his announcement that he was going on another 
paper, and the invitation to our subscribers to go with him — 
leaving us — to the other paper. 
Cross-examined by Mr. Millard : 

Q. What do you say your business is? A. What it is now? 

Q. Yes ; and what it has been for the last year or two ? A. 
The last year or two I have been an investor in western mort- 
gages. 

Q. Loaning money ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What do you say was your connection with the paper at 
the time Dr. Talmage left? A. At the time Dr. Talmage left 
I was treasurer and sort of business manager. 

Q. You just used the expression a moment ago that you 
thought Dr. Talmage injured the paper by inserting his adver- 
tisement ; do you know that he inserted any advertisement ? 
A. Yes, sir ; I think I do. 

Q. How do you know it ? A. From information. 

Q. Do you consider you have a right to swear to a fact 

A. (Interrupting). I don't swear at all ; I am not a swearer. 

Q. Haven't you just sworn A. (Interrupting.) No. 

15 



114 



Q. Or affirmed ? A. I do. 

Q. Do yon consider yon have a right to affirm in a court as 
a fact what yon have heard somebody say? A. I felt that I 
was right in doing so, and I don't regret it now. 

Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Dickinson, do you know of your 
own knowledge that Dr. Talmage had anything to do with 
putting that advertisement in? A. Of my own vision there is 
very little I do know. 

Q. You don't know of your own knowledge that he had any- 
thing to do with that ? A. I know by informrtion only. 

Mr. Crosby — I think when the witness used the word adver- 
tisement he corrected himself and meant the word " valedic- 
tory." 

Q. I understood yon to refer to the advertisement asking 
his friends to go to the other paper ; does he ask them to go 
to the other paper in his editorial ? A. I think it was so ; I 
think it was so read. 

Q. Just read it yourself and see if it does ? A. (After look- 
ing at the editorial.) Perhaps you would say not, I would say 
yes. 

Q. Pick out the sentence where you would say he says it ? 
A. The tenor of the whole is an invitation to go with them to 
the Advance ; it is not literally so, but the meaning is so. 

Q. You did not, then, in your testimony intend to refer to 
the advertisement ? A. I did not know the word advertise- 
ment was used ; I meant the valedictory. 

Q. Now, Mr. Dickinson, you have sworn something 

A. (Interrupting.) No, excuse me, I have not sworn at all; I 
am not going to swear. 

Q. You will understand me when I say swear? A. No, sir ; 
we are told plainly that we are not to swear. 

Q. Are you as particular about the rate of interest you take ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. "What rate of interest do you take ? A. All I can get 
that is legal. 

Q. Now I want to ask you in regard to the matter of that 
sale ; you say you take all the interest you can get. A. Legal. 
Q. Don't you take more than legal interest. A. No, never. 
Q. Now, in regard to that sale ; you say it was to be submitted 



115 



to the Trustees on the 10th, and could not be a sale until it 
was submitted to them ; let me ask you whether every de- 
cision made in regard to that paper by Mr. Eemington was not 
ratified by the Trustees ; didn't he dictate the whole manage- 
ment of the paper? A. Give me the question again? 

Q. Didn't Mr. Eemington at that time dictate the whole 
management of that paper? A. I think not ; the management 
of the paper in the main had been passed over to the Presi- 
dent to secure him for large advances, but the Trustees each 
retained their right of voting, and the President had no power 
except by their votes. 

Q. Can you tell me of any vote that the Trustees ever took 
annulling anything that Mr. Remington did about the paper ? 
A. I cannot remember all our votes. 

Q. Do you remember any in which you traversed his opin- 
ion in regard to the paper ? A. I certainly should have done 
it if it was not right. 

(Question repeated.) A. Oh, yes. 

Q. What one thing ? Q. That I cannot tell you : the Presi- 
dent's opinion did not always rule by the voting ; we generally 
agree together ; I do not know but what we always did. 

Q. In regard to the sale of the paper, did Mr. Eemington 
own the majority of the stock? A. Certainly. 

Q. Do you mean to say then that if Mr. Eemington owning 
that stock had said he wanted the paper sold, the Trustees 
would in such a case have voted against his opinion and 

wishes ? A. The sale of the paper went by the 1 cannot 

tell ; I think it was by the vote of the stockholders. 

Q. I want to ask you whether in such a case the vote of the 
Trustees would not be a mere matter of form ? A. The whole 
of the transaction was by the entire Trustees ; there was no 
difference of judgment between us. 

Q. The question was this : If Mr. Eemington had made an 
arrangement for the sale of that paper, would you not, as 
Trustees, consider yourself bound to ratify what he had done? 
A. That is, if he had done something that was unreasonable, 
whether we would not have confirmed it ? 

Q. If he had sold it on his own terms, would you not have 
ratified it ? A. That is not the question ; you say if he did 
something. 



116 



Q. I ask if Mr. Eemington had sold it at that time on sub- 
mission to the Trustees, would not thej have ratified it ? A. 
If he had done anything wrong, we should have endeavored to 
restate it. 

Q. Do you know that the defendant here had any knowledge 
that the matter had been virtually closed on that 9th of Octo- 
ber ; had he been informed of the negotiations — of it or the 
sale virtually concluded between Mr. Remington and the pur- 
chaser? A. He had been in the office so much that clay in 
the midst of the conversation, that I cannot conceive it pos- 
sible but that he must have known. 

Q When did you know it ? A. I had no part in the trans- 
action ; it had been going on for some weeks ; the President 
informed us that Mr. Talmage had recommended Mr. Hallock. 

Q. When did you learn that this sale had been virtually 
concluded between Hallock and Remington? A. I did not 
learn it ; I had part in it ; I had to do with it. 

Q. Did you say that Dr. Talmage was aware that it was 
virtually concluded? I say that Dr. Talmage was in the 
office on the 9th, and that it was a subject of conversation and 
general arrangement, and I have no recollection of talking to 
Dr. Talmage about it ; but I do not see how it could be that 
Dr. Talmage could not know, because he was amongst us. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage a good editor ? A. 1 am not a judge 
of that ; you must excuse me from that. 

Q. Did you consider him a desirable editor? A. Excuse 
me from judging ; his mental abilities are far superior to mine. 

Q. You have testified to the agreement on the 29th of May, 
and you spoke of some thirty days' notice in the agreement; 
you were asked whether Dr. Talmage at that time gave you 
any notice that he would leave in the fall ? A. I did. 

Q. Now, are you willing to swear that he did not? A. I 
will afiirm that he did not. 

Q. Are you sure he did not ? I am quite clear that he did 
not ; he talked about the future changes, and that he should 
make some some change in the fall ; the salary was lower than 
he liked to receive, and he should do something ; but there was 
no notice. 

Q. You make a distinction between his giving you a notice, 



117 



and his saying he should make some change? A. Yes, sir ; 
that is not a notice. 

Q. He did say that — that he should make some change? 
A. I cannot tell whether he used those words, he should make 
some change. 

Q. That was the substance of the words ? A. That was the 
idea. 

Q. Do you know how soon Dr. Talmage learned that the 
matter was virtually closed between Mr. Kemington and Mr. 
Hallock ; at how early a date ? A. I cannot tell. 

Q. Do you know when they came to terms ? A. I say I had 
to do with it. 

Q. When did you come to terms with Mr. Hallock? A. The 
latter part of the previous week. 

Q. Did you then consider the matter was virtually closed ? 
A. I considered it was probably closed. 

Q. When did you expect it would be ratified? A. At the 
meeting of the Trustees. 

Q. If it was ratified, did it give you any chance to give Dr. 
Talmage thirty days' notice ? A. If we could not give him the 
notice, and he did not choose to remain as editor of the paper, 
we should have paid him thirty days' salary. 

Q. Did you consider that as complying with the agreement? 
A. Certainly. 

Q. Would not an editor have other reasons than the mere 
drawing of salary, want to know if you were going to sell him 
out? A. They could not sell him out. 

Q. Could you retain him there after the paper was sold? 
A. We could not, but we could pay him his salary ; there was 
no disposition to exclude a valedictory, that was not an adver- 
tisement of another paper. 

Q. Could you insure his remaining in the paper after it went 
into Hallock's hands ? A. It needed no assuring ; Mr. Rem- 
ington had recommended Dr. Talmage ; Mr. Hallock had con- 
ferred with Dr. Talmage, and had the idea that he should keep 
Dr. Talmage. 

Q. How do you know ? A. He had told me so. 

Q. Did you intend he should remain, if you could not come 
to terms? A. No. 



118 



Q. So that if they did not come to terms, he should fall out 
of the way? A. The terms were made; Dr. Talmage was 
recommended to Mr. Hallock ; Mr. Hallock desired Dr. Talmage 
to remain, and we fully expected that he would remain. 

Q. What were the terms you agreed upon ; were they agreed 
upon on Saturday? A. Do you want to know how much the 
paper was sold for? 

Q. No ; were the arrangements concluded on Saturday ? A. 
I could not say ; the latter part of the week before ; the 9th 
was on Monday. 

Q. Let me ask you in regard to the putting in of that adver- 
tisement ; I understand you to say you knew nothing about it 
of your own knowledge ? A. I know nothing about it except 
by information. 

Q. A paper has been put in evidence here in which you 
charge that upon him ? A. Let me see it. 

Q. Did you mean in that paper to charge that you knew it 
of your own knowledge ? A. I don't know what the paper is. 

Q. It is that card signed by you? A. That is the statement 
with regard to these mattevn prepared in the office, signed by 
the President, Treasurer, and Secretary, of facts that we knew • 
either facts that we knew, or were fully satisfied were correct. 

Q. How did you satisfy yourself that he had anything to do 
with the putting in of that advertisement? A. When we left 
the office at 5 o'clock in the evening, we had the proof of the 
issue for the 12th on the desk ; there was no such advertise* 
ment in nor any valedictory ; when it was presented the next 
morning, it had both advertisement and valedictory, and from 
inquiry of the press-men we learned that Dr. Talmage had 
been there, and that he had directed the press to be stopped, 
and the type changed in some way, and the next morning these 
things were in. 

Q Did you ask your press-man whether he had said any- 
thing about the advertisement ? A. Other officers with me 
did ; I did not personally, but the Secretary did ; he informed 
me. 

Q. And on the information of the Secretary that they said 
Dr. Talmage had something to do with the advertisement ; you 
signed that paper, did you ? A. No ; not by press-men, 



119 



saying that Talmage had something to do with the advertise- 
ment; not so indefinite as that, but that Dr . Talmage called there, 
and as editor, having general charge of the paper, he directed 
the presses to be stopped and certain changes made, and the 
valedictory put in, and that he paid for the change by his own 
check on a connection ; that the valedictory had plain refer- 
ence to the advertisement ; they were one subject and con- 
nected together, and, therefore, we concluded that Dr. Talmage 
either had by himself or somebody that he directed and with 
his cognizance done the two, and we gave him the credit 
for it. 

Q. Did you ask any of your employees in the office how that 
advertisement came into the office ? A. I scarcely understand 
your question. 

Q. Did you ask any of the employees in the office how that 
advertisement came into the office ? A. There is no proof it 
was ever in the office. 

Q. It was put in the paper, wasn't it ? A. If was not in the 
paper at night when the office was closed, and it was in the 
paper 

Q. (Interrupting.) Could it get in the paper without com- 
ing into the office ? A. Certainly ; the paper was in the hands 
of the press-men. 

Q. Did you ask any of the employees how it came into the 
paper ? A. I did not, but the other officers did. 

Q. Who? A. Mr. Hawley did. 

Q. How do you know it ? A. He told me ; I asked him how 
these changes were made in the paper. 

Q. Did he tell yon he had found out that Dr. Talmage had 
brought that advertisement in ? A. I cannot explain that ; I 
am not embarrassed about the thing, but I don't know that I 
have liberty to answer you ; I can go on until you stop me ; 
the advertising agent, named ConkliD, of the Christian at Work 
Company, left it at that time with the editor, and I presumed 
he might have put that advertisement in, but there was no 
reason to suppose it was ever in the Christian at Work office, 
or seen by any of the officers of the company ; that it might 
have been put in either by Dr. Talmage, or the advertising 
agent, who left the company without notice, and went to the 
Advance. 



120 

Q. Oue or the other ; you don't know which ?. A. I don't 
know which. 

Q. You didn't know then, and don't know now, that Dr. 
Talmage had anything to do with the advertisement? A. 
No. 

Q. How did you come to charge it upon that paper that you 
sent all over the country ? A. I think, in regard to that, I am 
justified in saying he did it ; he was the editor, and whether 
he did it with his own hands, or the hands of his advertising 
agent, who went at the same time to the other paper, I think 
I am justified in saying that the one at the head ot the con- 
cern did it, whether by his own hands, or those of his subor- 
dinate. 

Q. Was it any part of Dr. Talmage's business to oversee 
the advertisements? A Not at all; but it was part of his 
business to promote its interests. 

Q. Do you know he knew anything about that advertise- 
ment ? A. I can't know Dr. Talmage's knowledge. 

Q. You had no knowledge then within your view that Dr. 
Talmage ever knew anything more of that advertisement than 
you did ? A. That is a difficult question ; I do not know that 
there is such a country as China but I believe there is, and I 
am satisfied that Dr. Talmage put in that advertisement. 

Q. Tell us on what ground you believed that ? A. The 
ground of common sense and business understanding ; his 
valedictory, without the advertisement, would have been very 
poor work ; of course it may be argued that they did not tell 
him, and that two men kept separate running parallel. 

Q. That would be quite possible ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Suppose Dr. Talmage had made an arrangement that 
day with the Advance and closed it ; was not it possible for 
them to get up the advertisement and put it in without Dr. 
Talmage's notice? A. No, it would not be possible. 

Q. Will you swear that the advertisement could not have 
been gotten up ; do you affirm it could not ? A. It could not 
have been gotten up after Dr. Talmage completed the agree- 
ment ; that would take about a day to get up. 

Q. Do you know what part of the day Mr. Talmage made 
that agreement ; suppose that he learned in the morning that 



121 



he had been sold out ? A. He was not sold out ; he was a 
Trustee. 

Q. The paper was sold out, and he was virtually out of 
office? A. He was under contract and w T e were bound to 
fulfil it. 

Q. Then all you know, as I understand you, about Mr. Tal- 
mage's agency in regard to that advertisement is simply that 
it came in simultaneously with his good-bye, and that the two 
refer to each other ; that is the only ground upon which you 
judge? A. Yes, sir, and other general connection. 

Q. That is the only ground upon which you charged and 
now charge that Dr. Talmage had anything to do with the 
advertisement ? A. I do not conceive that there could be any- 
thing more. 

Q. The only ground upon which you signed the card charg- 
ing this upon Mr. Talmage was that Mr. Hawley told you he 
had found out from somebody that Dr. Talmage was connected 
with it ? A. No ; I think that is not the straight way to put 
it — that Mr. Hawley told me that somebody had said some- 
thing- — Mr. Hawley, the Secretary, went to the press-man. 

Q. What one ? A. His name is Dodge ; I presume he was 
the press-man ; I did not go, Mr. Hawley went ; he is a man 
that understands the business, and he came and informed us 
that such was the fact ; I believe he stated it and in just so 
few words, that Mr. Talmage went the evening before and 
made those changes. 

Q. What changes ? A. Changes in the advertisement and 
the valedictory. 

Q. Is Mr. Dodge now in your employ ? A. Never was ; he 
was employed to do some work ; the paper, possibly, was at 
that time — shortly afterwards. 

Q. Is he in the paper now ? A. He is in Chambers street, 
New York. 

Q. There is one other matter I want to ask you about ; 
something has been said here about copies of the paper being 
laid on the Secretary's and others tables, and that it was the first 
edition of the paper that was laid on their table ; who, ordi- 
narily was it that took those copies and put them on the table? 
A. It was not my duty, and I don't know. 

16 



122 



Q. Do you know what one in the office generally took the 
paper and laid it for examination on the desk of the Secretary, 
for example ? A. It was one of the messengers from the 
printer's office — whether our own messengers or his I could 
not tell ; it was not a part of my duty. 

Q. Do you know who took them or laid them on those tables? 
A. That was the question I answered, but I don't know. 

Q. Did you make any inquiry who did it at that time, before 
you signed that card? A. The name of the boy — the mes- 
senger. 

A. Tes, sir ; who brought those three copies of the sup- 
pressed edition? A. No, it was in the regular course of busi- 
ness, I did not care what his name was. 

Q. What led you to charge Dr. Talmage with having any- 
thing to do with it ? A. Because Mr. Hawley told me the 
printer told him ; he was the Secretary and a man of experience 
in that kind of business. 

Q. Now in regard to the editorial that was put in in the place 
of it, do you remember that ? A. I have a general remem- 
brance of it. 

Q. Do you remember the closing sentence of that editorial? 
A. I think I do. 

Q. To whom did that refer? A. I cannot tell; I was not 
the editor in any way. 

Q. You had nothing to do with putting that in? A. "When 
we met together informed by Mr. Hawley of this fact, and the 
President was sent for, and we were there, the consideration 
was that a serious injury had been attempted to be done with 
the paper, and as to what was to be done, accordiag to my best 
recollection ; Dr. William Taylor was appealed to at once ; he 
was in the habit of preparing the Sabbath School lessons ; 
whether Dr. Taylor recommended that or the managing editor 
I do not know ; the insertion of that would be the change of 
the managing editor; not in my charge at all, and I had no 
cognizance of it. 

Q. And you had nothing to do with it ? A. Nothing to do 
with it. 

Q. Then/as I understand you, you knew nothing of jour own 
knowledge except what Mr. Hawley told you of Dr. Talmage's 



123 



having any connection either with the matter of the laying of 
those papers on the desk or the advertisement? A. I could 
not ; it was not done in the night. 

Q. All you know about it, that he inserted that editorial? A. 
I do not know that except by the same means of information. 

Q. That coming from himself speaks for itself, does it not ? 
A. I understood yon to say that you thought he did a great 
injury to the paper in retiring as he did ; I was thoughtful 
about those words ; I think it was calculated to be a great 
injury, I am not aware that it did ; it passed into the hands of 
the purchasers, and how much he was injured I have no means 
of knowing ; as I said before the Christian at Work, belonged to 
the Christian at Work Company ; I considered that valedic- 
tory and advertisement of another paper and practically in- 
viting the subscribers of the Christian at Work to go with him 
to the Advance, and that it was calculated to work an injury to 
us ; we expected for a while, that Mr. Hallock would decline to 
take the paper, with such a breach upon its face as to the 
editor going out in that way, and he was asked the question in 
the office, in my presence what effect it would have, and he said 
" none at all ; I shall take the paper away;" therefore it did 
not injure the paper. 

Q. He did not look at it as you did ? A. I think he did pre- 
cisely. 

Q. And he made no objection to taking the paper ? A. He 
took the paper. 

Q. If Mr. Talmage was going to make any announcement at 
all of his leaving the paper, could he have said anything else? 
A. Yes, sir, I think so , I think he could ; I think he adver- 
tised the paper he was going to, to the injury of the paper he 
leaving. 

Q. Could he have said he was going out without saying 
where he was going ? A. Yes, sir ; I think he ought not to 
advertise a paper at the cost of the one he was leaving. 

Q. Did you consider the information as to where he was 
going injured it ? A. It was the style of the information ; it 
was calculated to work as an injury at that time. 

Q. Can you point out anything A. (Interrupting). The 

whole of it, and the advertisement had the same appearance as 
though it were written by the same man. 



124 



Q. But in regard to that, what is there in the style that yoii 
can point out? A. It is precisely Dr. Talmage's style, and he 
invited old friends to go along with him. 

Q. Eead it ? A. (Beading it). We had advertised in the 
Christian at Work within three weeks of this time that we were 
to have his sermons and his work for the coming time, and 
here he says he was going to the Advance ; and it was put- 
ting us in the position of a breach of promise with our sub- 
scribers. 

Q. If the paper had been sold virtually, and that w 7 as to be 
completed within two or three days, had Dr. Talmage any- 
thing else to do but to make some arrangements w 7 ith some 
other paper ? A. I think so ; Mr. Hallock was introduced to 
the President, and recommended as a proper Christian man 
for the carrying on of the paper ; on a good understanding 
with him, Mr. Hallock was willing to fulfill the contract with 
Dr. Talmage. 

Q. What contract ? A. Our thirty-day contracts ; he was 
willing to fulfill our contracts, which were $30 a week for the 
four weeks. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage know that ? A. He was a Trustee, and 
ought to have known it. 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage thought that Mr. Hallock 
was disposed to keep him, and he was determined to keep him, 
and give him a good salary? A. Was willing to keep him, 
do you mean ? 

Q. Yes. A. Yes ; I understand that he was ; I undrsetand 
that from Mr. Hallock. 

Q. Do you know nothing except what Mr. Halleck told you? 
A. No ; we had no intention of injuring Dr. Talmage in any 
way. 

Q. Do you know that he had any intention of injuring you ? 
A. I don't want to judge of his intentions ; I judge of his 
acts. 

Q. Do you think it injured you ? A.I think if a clerk of 
ours did so I should say he was not faithful ; in the course of 
September we published him as the editor, and that we were 
going to publish his sermons ; on the l^th of October he pub- 
lished that he was going to another paper and take his sermons 



125 



with him ; and he pat us in a position of a breach of contract 
to every subscriber. 

Q. Suppose Dr. Talmage had taken this view, would it have 
been a reasonable one — suppose he had found you had sold 
the paper without notifying him ; that he learned that day 
only in the office that the paper was virtually sold, really sold ; 
that he had been told so " and you sold with it," would it 
have been anything injurious for you in him to go then and 
close with another paper ? A. I think that advertises the 
other paper too much at the cost of ours. 

Q. So you thiuk he was not at liberty even to tell his old 
friends where he was going? A. There are different ways of 
doing things ; will you allow me to say one word ? 

The Moderator ~ -Certainly. 

A. (Continuing.) This paper was sold to the party intro- 
duced by Dr. Talmage, I understood, and I think it may be 
shown yet, perhaps, that as I understand so ; I understand 
Mr. Hallock is going to be examined ; that it was sold to a 
party Dr. Talmage approved ; I knew, on the other side, Mr. 
Hallock was very willing to retain Dr. Talmage, at least until 
they could make proper arrangements, and that in the way Dr. 
Talmage was a Trustee, it was his place to attend to the busi- 
ness of that company, not mine, as a trustee to go after him and 
tell him ; if we had been selling to a stranger, of whom we had 
any doubt as to Dr. Talmage's fraternal feelings and approval, 
I would then have thought it quite proper to inform him, even 
if he was a Trustee, but not when it was his friend, I was goitfg 
to say ; one that he already spoke well of and recommended. 

Q. Still, you didn*t know this friend and he would be able 
to come to any terms ; he didn't know it, did he ? A. By a 
process of common sense and reasoning, I judge that Dr. Tal- 
mage did know. 

Q. You think he knew that Mr. Hallock would keep him on 
such terms that he would be willing to stay ? A. For a 
month, certainly. 

Q. Suppose he had reason to believe, then, that it would be 
only for a month, and he had another offer open to go per- 
manently into another paper and he accepted it, could he say 
anything less than he did say ? A. I think so ; there never 



126 



was a disposition to prevent a valedictory of his going into the 
paper so long as it did not advertise another paper. 

Q. Why, then, did you keep this thing secret from him? 
A. It never was kept secret from anybody. 

Q. Did you hear Mr. Remington's testimony ? A. I did — 
a portion of it. 

Q. Didn't he swear it was not told to Dr. Talmage? A. I 
say the same ; it was not told to Dr. Talmage by me. 

Q. Do you know whom it was told to him by? A. I don't 
see that it was called upon to be told to him; we wanted a 
purchaser ; Mr. Talmage knew it ; had talked with us about 
getting a customer ; he recommended this purchaser, and we 
sold to the purchaser he recommended. 

Q. We are speaking now of the fact that they had come to 
terms really ; in fact, that the sale had been virtually made ; 
don't you think he was entitled to know that? A. I think 
he did know it ; he was in the office so much that day and 
previously, that I cannot conceive that he did not know of it. 

Q. But you are not sure of it ? A. No ; I had no conversa- 
tion with him. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Did you, in the summer of 1876, go with Mr. Remington to 
Dr. Taylor for the purpose of negotiating with him in reference 
to the editorial chair ? A. No. 

Q. Any time before that ? A. Never. 

Q. Never did that at all? A. Never. 

Q. Did you, for that purpose, visit any other clergymen ? 
A. No. 

Q. You referred to the interview between you and Dr. Tal- 
mage in the autumn, September 12th ? A., Is it proper for me 
to explain about that ; how you got that idea ; I never went to 
any clergyman about the editorial chair, unless it was Dr. 
Talmage. 

Q. You had an interview with Dr. Talmage on the 12th of 
September, did you ? A. About that time. 

Q. It was with reference to the issue of the circular, was it ? 
A. It was not in reference to any change ; the circular was 
printed. 

Q. Did you ask Dr. Talmage ? A. I showed him the circu- 



127 



lar and said, " this is prepared for the fall campaign," and 
asked him generally about the matter, and asked him if he had 
anything to suggest, any change. 

Q. His answer was? A. His answer was " I have no change 
to suggest." 

Q. The actual terms for which this paper was finally sold 
were fixed upon on Saturday or Friday or Thursday, one or 
two of the days of the week preceding Dr. Talmage's retire - 
nient, were they not ? A. That is according to my understand- 
ing and my lecollection. 

Q. So that practically as a matter of fact the contract was 
completed really on Saturday or Friday ? A. You lawyers are 
very smart. 

Q. Oh, no, we are not smart ; we don't know very much. A. 
Had Mr. Hallock, on the morning 

Q. No, let me get my question if you please ; as a simple 
matter of fact, was the contract, the terms of the contract be- 
tween the parties understood in your mind as settled, on Fri- 
day or Saturday or Thursday, and nothing remained but the 
form afterwards ? A. Nothing remained but the form ; but 
anything might have arisen to prevent it. 

Q. When you entered into that negotiation agreed upon, the 
terms of this contract either upon Saturday or Friday, did you 
in that negotiation make any provision for Dr. Talmage's con- 
tinuance ? A. We had that in mind all the time. 

Q. Did you make any provision in the contract V A. I have 
not seen the contract ; I cannot answer that question. 

Q. Do you recollect that you made any provision ? A. Yes, 
sir ; I say we did ; the provision was that Dr. Talmage had 
recommended the purchaser ; the purchaser was willing for 
Dr. Talmage to fulfill his short engagement, and that it should 
be fulfilled, and that he tcok the paper with the expectation 
that it should be fulfilled. 

Q. Was this contract written ? A. I don't remember that. 

Q. Don't you know whether it was written ? A. I say I 
don't remember. 

Q. Was it, as a matter of fact, in the conversation between 
you and Mr. Hallock — was the case of Dr. Talmage considered, 
and did you stipulate with Mr. Hallock and Mr. Hallock with 



128 



you, that in the event of the sale to be concluded on Monday 
by the action of the Trustees, he was to be retained ? A. Have 
you got a copy of that contract ; I will explain it without it ; 
that contract read in this way, that Dr. Talmage was to fur- 
nish his sermons and such editorial work as was agreeable to 
him ; that meant union if union was agreeable to him ; we were 
prepared, if Dr. Talmage had done nothing you are speak- 
ing of the contract ? 

Q. The contract that resulted in the sale of the paper ? A. 
I say I did consider Dr. Talmage, and thought Mr. Hallo ck 
would fulfill it. 

Q. What did you stipulate actually? A. We stipulated to 
pay Dr. Talmage $30 a week for thirty days' notice ; that was 
four weeks at $30. 

Q. The point I want to get at is this, whether under the con- 
tract you made that day, Saturday, if it be the day, the con- 
tract included any terms relating to Dr. Talmage which Mr. 
Hallock was to carry out? A. I am not aware that there was. 

Q. So that Dr. Talmage was not at all contemplated in the 
contract ? A. I don't know that there was a contract, except 
a mutual one. 

Q. You came to a union of minds about it ? A. No diffi- 
culty at all ; I think the contract was such that I am not 
aware there was any writing about it. 

Q. Whether there was any writing or not, Dr. Talmage was 
not a party prepared for in the future in that contract, and 
binding upon Mr. Hallock, was he ? A. You are very meta- 
physical ; we had a contract with Dr. Talmage, to pay him so 
much money, and our agreement we meant to keep ; every day 
has been paid for by that company ; Mr. Hallock was willing, 
if agreeable to Dr. Talmage, that he should perform the ser- 
vices, and then, I suppose, he would have paid the money. 

Q. You were going to sell that paper, were you not ? A. We 
did sell it. 

Q. You were provided at the time for the sale of the paper, 
were you. not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you fixed the terms of the sale of that paper with- 
out making any provision with the party purchasing it with 
reference to Dr. Talmage ? A. You mean did we sell Dr. Tal- 
mage and deliver him ? 



129 



Q. No ; answer my question ; did you, in the terms of that 
contract, dispose of the paper to Mr. Hallock without, in the 
same contract, including a provision for Dr. Talmage ? A. We 
could not sell Dr. Talmage, or the managing editor either. 

Q. Answer my question, please ? A. I do not know that 
there was any written contract. 

Q. Call it arrangement, if you please ? A. There was an 
arrangement, and I have said so several times. 

Q. Did that arrangement bind Mr. Hallock to keep Dr. 
Talmage an hour after the paper was delivered to him? A. I 
do not know that there was a written contract ; the arrange- 
ment, the sale of the paper, was with the understanding, which 
I am satisfied was a fact, that Mr,. Hallock was willing that 
Dr. Talmage should perform any editorial services, according 
to our contract with him, and, if he was not, we were to pay 
the money. 

Q. Did you in that contract stipulate, as one of the con- 
tracting parties, that Mr. Hallock should be under obligation 
to do that? A. No. 

Q. So that you absolutely made no provision for Dr. Tal- 
mage, but left it to Mr. Hallock's discretion ? A. If I make 
an agreement with a man, and pay him his money, I have no 
more to clo with him. 

Q. So that, so far as the future of Dr. Talmage is concerned, 
you dropped him ? A. I would not presume to make a con- 
tract with Dr. Talmage. 

Q. You dropped him ? A. Certainly ; I was not employed 
to do Dr. Tal in age's business. 

Q. You did not know anything about, except by hearsay, 
how this advertisement came to be answered? A. I never 
said anything about rumor ; our own officer, the Secretary, in 
the performance of his duty, obtained the information and 
brought it to me. 

Q. Did you presume, from the length of time which it would 
take to prepare an electrotype and a correspondence between 
the electrotype and the valedictory, that necessarily, by a fair 
inference, Dr. Talmage, if he prepared the one, must have 
some knowledge of the other ? A. Please repeat it. 



130 



advertisement and the valedictory, and in view of the length 
of time it would take to prepare the electrotype plate for the 
advertisement, that Dr. Talmage, if he answered the valedic- 
tory, must have had some knowledge of the other? A. The 
advertisement was an announcement that Dr. Talmage had 
gone to the Advance; to stereotype it and back it with wood 
would take a considerable time. 

Q. How do you know, now that that advertisement could 
not be prepared in ten minutes? A. Oh, ho ! 

Q. Do you know it could not be ? A. Certainly I do. 

Q. You are positive of it, that it could not be prepared 
and fitted for purposes of being put in the press in ten min- 
utes ? A. I am not an expert. 

Q. You know that fact ? A. I know it as I know I cannot 
travel to Boston in ten minutes. 

Q. Do yoa know anything about papier mache prepara- 
tions ? A. That was not papier mache. 

Q. Did you see it? A. My impression is that I saw it. 

Q. Did you see the stereotype as it came into the office ? 
A. I would not want to say, positively ; I was there at the 
time ; I saw it afterwards. 

Q. Yoa saw what was an electrotype ? A. A regular electro- 
type. 

Q. Are you positive about that ? A. No, no ; I am not. 

Q. Hence you do not know but it was an entirely different 
thing? A. No; it may have been made of paper; I do not 
know. 

Q. Hence you cannot reason, from the time necessary to 
prepare it, that Dr. Talmage prepared it? A. My impression 
is, from memory of two and one-half years — October, 1876 — 
that it was a regular electrotype, made in the regular mode ; 
it was not made of papier mache, or anything of the kind. 

Q. Do you know anything about what is called papier 
mache ? A. Yes, I do ; it was a regular electrotype, that 
would take a couple of hours ; I say I speak from memory. 

Mr. Millaed — You said one thing I forgot to ask you about ; 
about the paper being in difficulties ; let me ask you if, about 
the time it was sold, the embarrassment was such that there 
was any danger of its coming to a stoppage? A. No; there 



131 



was no special difficulty then, more than the ordinary ; no, 
there was no special difficulty ; there was no sheriff. 

Q. Had not Mr. Kemington notified the company sometime 
previous to this, that he could not make any more advances ? 
A. He had notified the company he could not make any more 
advances. 

Q. If Mr. Remington ceased to make advances, was there 
any way for the paper to go on ? A. I think not. 

Q. You are not sure whether he did not, some time before 
this, notify the company that he could not make any further 
advances ? A. He may have done so, and might mean that 
he could not do it for that week, but we had notes discounted 
and money forthcoming, when he could not make an advance. 

Q. Did not you know, on the part of a good many connected 
with the company, a fear that it must come to a stop ? A. I 
did not know about the fears that it must come to a stop. 

HENRY DICKINSON, 

Pending the examination of Mr. Dickinson, the Presbytery 
adjourned. 

(Signed) J. MILTON GREENE, 

Stated Clerk. 

April 1st, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 1st, at 3 P. M. 

Mr. M. H. Bright was called, and being duly sworn, testified 
as follows : 
Examined by Rev. Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Are you connected with any religious society ? A. I am 
connected with the First Reformed Church of Tarrytown. 

Q. What is your position in the church ? A. I am a mem- 
ber of the church. 

Q. Did you have relations with the Christian at Work, if so, 
what have they been ? My relations with the Christian at 
Work are those of managing editor ; I have been managing 
editor for nearly six years. 

Q. As managing editor of the paper, what have been your 
duties ? A. My duties have been to select topics for treat- 
ment ; to assign writers and secure articles, except the editor- 
ials furnished by the editor-in-chief, and supply the rest of the 



132 



editorial comments myself and make up the paper so that it 
is prepared to be put in the press. 

Q. What were jour relations with Dr. Talmage 'during his 
editorship of the paper ? A. That I have already indicated ; 
Dr. Talmage was the editor -in-chief, and I was the managing 
editor of the paper ; those w T ere our relations. 

Q. Those were your business relations ; what were your 
personal relations with Dr. Talmage ? A. Pleasant. 

Q. Did you ever have a collision with him ? A. No ; we 
may have had a differnce of opinion ; we did very frequently 
have a difference of opinion, but w T e had no personal collision 
of any kind. 

Q. Did you know that efforts were being made in the sum- 
mer of lb7(5, to sell the paper ? A. Yes ; everybody connec- 
ted with the paper knew it. 

Q. Did you ever talk with Dr. Talmage on the subject ? A. 
Dr. Talmage and myself have exchanged remarks about it now 
and then. 

Q. Were there efforts made to sell the paper to Mr. Hallock? 
A. There were efforts to sell the paper to Mr. Hallock ; yes. 

Q. Did you speak with Dr. Talmage about it? A. I think 
Dr. Talmage spoke to me about it after those efforts had been 
in progress for some time. 

Q. Can you state the substance of any conversation or con- 
versations that you had with Dr. Talmage in reg ird to that 
matter; I don't mean the exact words, but the conversation 
as near as you can remember ; anything that passed between 
you on the subject ? A. T don't think I can. 

Q. But you said that the subject w r as talked of between you? 
A. Oh, yes. 

Q. What was your custom as managing editor in regard to 
completing the paper for the press — getting it ready for pub- 
lication ? A. I simply, on Monday, had the proofs of all articles, 
editorials, and articles that were contributed, and everything 
of that kind sent to me properly trimmed ; then I posted 
them on last week's paper, and arranged them in the way I 
wanted them to go in. 

Q. After you had arranged it in that way, were you in the 
habit of consulting Dr. Talmage in regard to it? A. Dr. Tal- 



i33 



mage came over every Monday generally, and looked over the 
proofs — glanced over them ; he didn't read everything that 
was in the paper, but he looked over the headings and the 
general arrangement of the articles. 

Q. He examined the paper to that extent ? A. Yes ; to 
that extent. 

Q. At what time do you usually have the paper thus com- 
pleted and ready for the press ? A. I had the proof ready in 
the morning; the rest was the work of the printers; it was 
generally ready for the press about five o'clock in the after- 
noon. 

Q. Was it made up and prepared for the press on Monday 
evening, October 9, 1876, or about the usual time ? A. Yes. 

Q. What time was it made complete when you saw the last 
of it on that afternoon ? A. About four o'clock in the after- 
noon. 

Q. Was anyone with you at that time ? A. Dr. Talmage 
was in the office ; I don't know of anyone else. 

Q, Was he with you ? A. He was with me. 

Q. Did he have a conversation with you ? A. Oh, yes ; an 
ordinary conversation ; the last thing I said to him was, so 
far as I can recollect : " The paper is all made tip and every- 
thing is all right, and if there is nothing more to be done I 
would like to take my train for Tairytown ;" he said, "all 
right, go ahead," and I went ahead. 

Q. What time was that? A. That was four o'clock on 
Monday, the 9th of October. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage in the habit of returning to the office 
after the officers had gone away, and the office was closed? A. 
If he did, I never knew it. 

Q. You never knew him to do so ? A. No, sir ; I never 
knew him to do so ; he might have done so. 

Q. How late, on this Monday afternoon that you refer to, 
when the paper was completed, were the compositors ex- 
pected to work ? A. They were expected to work until we 
got the paper ready for the press, and that was generally 
about 5 o'clock ; they were apt to grumble if they were kept 
any later than that. 

Q. What was the arrangement with the pressmen? A. The 



134 



arrangement with the pressmen was that they were to get the 
forms and put them on the press, and fit them in the exact 
position they were to occupy, so that the next morning the 
presses could be started and the paper printed. 

Q. (Handing witness paper Exhibit A.) Is this the form of 
the paper as you prepared it for the press on Monday after- 
no m at four o'clock ? A. No, sir. 

Q. What is the difference? A. It didn't have Dr. Tal- 
mage* s benediction to his friends on it ; it went to press with- 
out it. 

Q. What was there in its place ? A. There was an edit- 
orial on some other subject, I have forgotten what, now, but it 
was not headed "Good by old friends." 

Q. Was there any other change in the paper — any other 
difference ? A. The difference is in this advertisement (Exhibit 
B) ; that was not in there this is headed, "Dr. Taltnage's an- 
nouncement of his withdrawal from the Christian at Work, 
&c; that was not in. 

Q. Did anyone have they right to change the form of the 
paper after the editors had completed it ? A. Generally all 
corrections were made by editors ; there might have been oc- 
casions for putting in a proper advertisement, when the per- 
son in charge of the advertising department would have been 
warranted in putting it in, but that would be an exceptional 
case, because ordinarily that involved an extra expense; it 
was generally understood that when the paper was made up 
and put on the press, it w r as not to be interfered with. 

Q. When did you discover this change in the paper? A. 
About a quarter past ten on Tuesday morning. 

Q. How did you discover it? A. I came down to the office, 
and found there a copy of the paper printed as made up under 
my directions the day before. 

Q. Under your directions alone ? A. Supervised by Dr. 
Talmage ; I was looking it over, when Mr. Hawley, our Secre- 
tary,, came in and said, " Mr. Bright, Mr. Talmage has left 
the paper ;" " Oh," I said, " that cannot be ;" "yes," he said, 
" but it is, here is his good bye, and here is the advertisement 
of the Advance in the paper, too," and he said, " I think the 
presses ought to be stopped ;" I said, " certainly, they should 



135 



be stopped, I will give an order to stop the presses and not 
let a copy of the paper go out ;" and he started off. 

Q. You were speaking, a moment ago, of this advertisement ; 
did you see the plate from which it was stricken? A. I be- 
lieve I did. 

Q. What was it ? A. Electrotype. 

Q. Do you know what an electrotype is ? A. Certainly, or 
I should not have said that it was an electrotype. 

Q. And this was an electrotype ? A. It was. 

Q. How long would it have taken to have made that elec- 
trotype ? A. It would take very nearly a day. 
Cross-examined by Dr. Millard : 

Q. You spoke of the advertisement ; do you know who 
brought the advertisement there? A. I think Dr. Talmage 
brought it there. 

Q. I am not asking you what you think, I am asking you 
what you know. A. I am morally certain 

Q. (Interrupting.) I don't ask you for what you are morally 
sure of; do you certainly know who brought that advertise- 
ment there ; A. It depends upon what you consider knowledge 
to consist of. 

Q. Just tell what you know about it; we don't want any 
guessing or inferring? A. I am not guessing or inferring; I 
am trying to tell you the facts if you will let me. 

Q. Did you see personally who brought it there ? A. I was 
told that Dr. Talmage brought it there. 

Q. We don't want what you were told ; did you see Dr. 
Talmage bring it there ? A. No ; I didn't see him bring it. 

Q. Did you see anybody bring it ? A. No ; I didn't see 
anybody bring it. 

Q. Do you know who brought it there? A. I have told you * 
that I think Dr. Talmage brought it there. 

Q. We don't want what you think about it ; do you know 
who brought it there ? A. I am morally certain Dr. Talmage 
brought it there. 

(Question repeated.) Same answer. 

Q. Answer my question; do you know who brought it 
there? A. I should say that I was justified in saying that 
Dr. Talmage brought it there. 



136 



Q. Answer my question (same question repeated ; same 

answer.) 

Q. How are you justified in saying that he brought it when 
3 7 ou say you didn't see him bring it ? A. I say I think I am 
justified in saying that he brought it there, because it was re- 
peatedly said that Dr. Talmage had brought that advertise- 
ment there. 

Q. Do you mean to say that you know nothing about it 
except what somebody else told you ? A. I mean to say that 
I am morally certain that Dr. Talmage brought that advertise- 
ment there ; I must be allowed to answer the questions in my 
own way ; a large portion of oar knowledge is derived from 
what somebody else tells us. 

-Q. Do you mean to say that all you know about it is what 
somebody else told you ? A. Certainly ; that is the way w T e 
get a large part of our knowledge. 

Q. Then what you meant to say is that all you know about 
it is what somebody else told you ? A. Well, of course it is ; 
I don't depend on my eyes for all my knowledge. 

Q. I want to ask you another question about this advertise- 
ment ; you say that all you know about its being brought 
there, somebody told you ; did you make any inquiries of the 
employees of the office as to who brought it there ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Wasn't that the most accessible source of information in 
reference to who brought the advertisement there? A. It 
might have boen and it might not have been. 

Q. You made no inquiries of anybody as to who brought it 
there ? A. Not that I recollect of. 

Q. You say that a copy of the paper after it first came out, 
was placed upon your desk ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who placed it there ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Did you make an}*- inquiries in the office ? A. I don't 
think I did ; I don't remember to have done so. 

Q. You don't know that Dr. Talmage L had anything to do 
with it ? A. I don't know that he did. 

Q. Who put in the editorial that appeared in the paper im- 
mediately after, in relation to Dr. Talmage — it was put in the 
place of the " Goodbye"— don't you remember it ? A. What 



137 



Q. I will refresh your memory ; this is it (handing witness 
paper) ; who put it in ? A. I did. 
Q. Who wrote it ? A. I wrote it. 

Q. Who does the last sentence refer to ? ("Witness reads 
the last sentence of the " Columbine" article.) Q. It points to 
the Christian at Work. 

Q. Who do you mean to refer to by that language, " Rob 
somebody of his interest ;" do you mean to refer to Dr. Tal- 
mage ? A. If the cap fits, and you choose to make that appli- 
cation, I am not responsible. 

Q. I am simply asking what you meant by it ; did you mean 
to refer Dr. Talmage and draw attention to hirn by that lan- 
guage? A. My answer was, if the cap fits him, and you 
choose to make that application of it, I cannot help it ; I don't 
think you have any right to ask me any such question. 

Q. I will not insist upon it, if you refuse to answer. A. I 
do not refuse to answer. 

Q. Then tell me the honest truth, what do you mean ? A. 
But I am telling you the honest truth all the while. 

Q. Did you mean to hit Dr. Talmage ? A. Do you think it 
hit Dr. Talmage ? 

Dr. Millard — I will not press the question. / 

Q. How did you come to get upon the Christian at Work? 
A. That is a matter of my own private affairs, and while I 
would ordinarily answer almost any question, I don't care to 
answer that. 

Q. Wasn't it a favor from you to Dr. Talmage ? A. I don't 
by any means consider it a favor from him. 

Q. Wasn't it a favor from him to you ; were }^ou receiving 
any salary at the time you were employed on that paper? A, 
In the first place, I don't think you have any business to ask 
any such question ; what does it concern the Presbytery, or 
Dr. Talmage on this trial, whether I received a salary before I 
went on the paper or not ? 

Q. Do you refuse to answer? A. I do not refuse to answer; 
what do you mean by this question anyhow? 

Q. I propose to show by you that Dr. Talmage warmed you 
into life ? A. I was alive long before that ; another thing, sir, 
18 



138 



I was getting a good salary ; perhaps you would be glad to 
get a salary much less than mine was then. 

Q. How much salary were you getting? A. That is another 
question ; will you allow me to make my answers in my own 
way, and not answer the questions for me ; I do not see that 
I am bound to tell everything that occurred before I went on 
the Christian at Work, in reference to the salary I was receiv- 
ing from some other source. 

Q. Didn't Dr. Talmage, at your request, get you into that 
office? A. I had a talk with him 

Q. (Interrupting.) Answer my question? A. I wrote him a 
note, if you want to know about it, and said I would like 
to see him about it; then he came and saw me 
and he had a talk with me and I had a talk with him ; I also 
had an interview with Mr. Adams, and after that I had a talk 
with Dr. Talmage and said to him, "I have had a talk 
with Mr. Adams, and his views on holiness don't suit me, and 
I will not subscribe to them or acquiesce in them," and I told 
him that I did not believe I would have anything to do with 
the paper, and I went up to Tarrytown; he asked me to please 
take time for consideration and reply again ; I telegraphed 
him that I could not take the position.; he sent another 
dispatch asking me to meet him at the Astor House; I did so 
and he said that I was just the man he wanted, and that I must 
come ; that is the way I got into it, but I don't consider I 
made myself his beneficiary by any means. 

Q. I want to ask you another question and that is, whether 
in the editorial department of the paper, you and Dr. Talmage 
were annoyed by the course that Mr. Kemington took ? A. 
Mr. Remington, 

Q. (Interrupting.) Answer my question, yes or no ? A. You 
can't pin me down in that manner ; the question can't be 
answered in that way ; Mr. Remington annoyed me, I am free 
to say, and he annoyed Mr. Talmage a good deal more. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. You say the plate from which this advertisement was 
struck was an electrotype ? A. Yes. 

Q. What is an electrotype ? A. An electrotype is a coating 
of copper placed upon the face of ordinary type by means of 
an electric battery. 



139 



Q. Do you know what that coating was of ? A. Copper. 

Q. I mean of that particular electrotype ; do you know it was 
copper? A. There is no other electrotype that I know of, 
except copper. 

Q. You don't know of any other ? A. I don't know of any 
other. 

Q. You have never heard of any other ? A. No, I never 
heard of any other electrotype used for that purpose. 

Q. Do you or not know that such an electrotype as you 
have already described, can be manufactured in ten minutes ? 
A. It could not have been then, sir. 

Q. How do you know ? A. Simply from my knowledge. 

Q. Are you an expert in the business? A. It depends upon 
what you call an expert ; do you mean, have I a practical 
knowledge of the subject ? 

Q. Yes? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you sufficient practical knowledge upon the sub- 
ject, and are you sufficiently skilled in the art of making elec- 
trotypes, to say absolutely that that plate, from which this 
advertisement was struck, would have taken 24 hours or 12 
hours to make, and that it could not have been made in 15 
minutes? A. It is not a matter of 10 houis or 24 hours abso- 
lutely ; it is a simple question of puttit g it in an electric bath 
until it arrives at the state in which it is suitable for use ; it 
is not a question of exact minutes and seconds ; it is custom- 
ary to put the electrotype in the bath, and leave it there about 
12 hours — generally over night ; and then the deposit of cop- 
per is formed. 

Q. Do you recollect examining this one particularly? A. 
No, sir ; it was not necessary ; you could see the copper the 
moment you glanced at the plate. 

Q. Did you examine this one particularly ? A. I say that it 
was not necessary, because you could see the copper at a 
glance ; I certainly saw that. 

Q. How long do you thick it would have taken to make 
that ? A. An hour or two hours. 

Q. Are you sure it could not kavebeen made in 15 minutes ? 
A. Believing that the age of miracles has passed, I do not be- 
lieve it could have been done in 15 minutes. 



140 



Q. Are you sure that what you supposed to be an electro- 
type, and now swear was, could not have been made in 15 
minutes ? A. I will go into the minutiae of that a little. 

Q. No ; please answer my question? A. No, sir ; that ques- 
tion can't be answered categorically, yes or no. 

Q. Do you positively know that that which you saw, and 
now swear was an electrotype, could not have been made in 15 
minutes ? A. I say this, I may be mistaken, but there is no 
person on earth that could get an advertisement like that, set 
up and ready for the paper in 15 minutes. 

Q. Do you know wdiat papier mache is ? A. I do. 

Q. How long would it take to have made that from that ma- 
terial ? A. In the first place, you have got to get the type 
for the advertisement set up. 

Q. How long would it take five men to set up that adver- 
tisement? A. Five men don't generally go to work on one 
advertisement. 

Q. Answer my question ? A. That depends upon the kind 
of men they are. 

Q. Five ordinary type setters? A. Five ordinary type set- 
ters would put it up in form in a couple of hours ; then it has 
to be corrected. 

Q. Couldn't they do it in less than two hours ? A. They 
might do it in a few minutes less. 

Q. Couldn't they do it in an hour ? A. I said I thought it 
would take them two hours ; if I had thought it would only 
have taken an hour, I should have said so ; you c°n't bring me 
down to minutes ; I don't believe it could have been done in 
an hour ; I say I think it would have taken from one to two 
hours. 

Q. Are you a practical type setter yourself? A. I am very 
glad to say that 1 served about one year when I w is a boy, in 
order that I might have some practical knowledge of it when 
I got on a paper. 

Q. It would take about two hours to put that in shape ready 
for printing? A. It might be done in a little less time than 
that, but I should say about that — ready for stereotyping. 

Q. Coul m't it be done in an hour? A. I have answered 
your question before. 



141 



The Moderator — I think he has answered that question 
sufficiently. 

Dr. Spear — I want to get the least possible time, according 
to his best judgment, in which it could have been done ? 

The Witness — I have answered that question twice before ; 
if I had thought it could have been done in an hour, I would 
have said so at once ; I don't believe that the thing could be 
done in an hour. 

Q. Please answer the question previously asked you ? A. 
It might have been done in an hour, but I don't think it could 
have been. 

Q. How much more than an hour would it take ? A. I 
don't know ; it is of no use trying to perplex and bother me, 
trying to bring me down to minutes ; I am Dot going to be 
pinned down into any such measure as that. 

Q. Do you know anything about the process of manufactur- 
ing this papier mache ? A. I have an indefinite idea of it. 

Q. Do you know how long it would take to manufacture the 
so-called electro-type with it? A. If I mistake not, papier 
mache is not an adjunct of electrotyping, but of stereotyping. 

Q. How long would it take to get the advertisement ready 
by that process ? A. I don't know very much about that pro- 
cess, but it would take less time than in plaster of Paris, but 
after that comes the electro, which takes several hours. 

Q. You don't know how much it would take, do you? A- 
I am hardly competent to say. 

Q. You don't know anything on the subject ? A. I didn't 
say so. 

Q. You say the form was made up on Monday afternoon, at 
4 o'clock, when you and Dr. Talmage were present, as it was 
published at the proper time ? A. Yes ; I believe I said so. 

Q. Is there anything to fix in your mind distinctly the fact 
that it was 4 o'clock when you left that day ? A. Yes. 

Q. What was it? A. The strongest fact that I recol- 
lect of now was, that I was anxious to leave at 4 o'clock, and 
I remember saying to Dr.Talmage, "Unless there is something 
to do, I would like to go," and Dr. Talmage replied, "It is all 
right, go ahead ; " I remember that time very distinctly. 

Q. After Dr. Tannage's name was suppressed, and your 



i42 



" Columbine " article was put in, did "you take Dr. Talinage's 
name from the paper '? A. Yes ; it was taken out. 

Q. Of the last edition ? A. Certainly ; it was because Dr. 
Talmage didn't edit the paper any more. 

Q. When he put in the "Good bye" article, he did edit it, 
didn't he ? A. Technically he did, but his services, as editor, 
terminated. 

Q. Wasn't he legally as well as technically the editor ? A. 
No ; because in that editorial he says that his connection with 
the paper has ceased. 

Q. His editorship had not ceased when he put that in, had 
it ? A. No, sir ; it had not exactly ceased. 

Q. He was the editor then ? A. Certainly. 

Q. And he had the right to put it in ? A. I do not say that ; 
that is another question. 

Q. As the editor-in-chief, he had control of the columns of 
the paper? A. He had control of the columns within the 
limits of propriety. 

Q. Who was the judge of that? A. I (hesitating) — any- 
body can judge for himself. 

Q. Do you mean " aye" or "J?" A. If I meant " aye" I 
should say " yes" to you. 

Q. You mean to say that you were the judge of the limits 
of propriety, do you? A. I didn't say I was ; I said " 7," and 
then stopped, and said that "anybody can judge for himself." 

Q. If Dr. Talmage was the editor of the paper, and if there 
was no one in particular to judge of the propriety of his doing 
so, and he thought proper to put in the editorial, who could 
overrule him? A. I will tell you about that; in the first 
place, when Mr. Hallock had bought the paper (the sale was 
consummated on Saturday, and not on Monday), Mr. Hallock 
was the proprietor of that paper, and of that special paper 
with that editorial, and when Mr. Hallock came in possession 
he asked that another editorial might be written, and he asked 
me to secure another editor, and asked me if I had any sug- 
gestions to make ; I told him that I did not think we could do 
any better than to get Dr. Taylor ; he gave me authority to 
see Dr. Taylor, and to make that proposition to him ; and I 
went right up on Tuesday morning and got Dr. Taylor ; then 



143 



I went clown and ordered out Dr. Talmage's name as editor, 
and put in Dr. Taylor's and my own. 

Q. Did you think that editorial a handsome fling at your 
benefactor? A. In the first place, Dr. Talmage was not my 
benefactor, and, in the second place, I don't think you have 
an? right to ask any such questions as that. 

Q. Do you think it was treating Dr. Talmage fairly in com- 
ing in as you did yourself, and then sending him out with an 
insult ? 

(Objected to.) 

Q. I want to know whether, at the time Mr. Hallock be- 
came the owner of the paper, he had the right to say whether 
Dr. Talmage should write thus and so; do you mean to say 
that the transfer of the paper to Mr. Hallock had left Dr. Tal- 
mage out of the editorial chair or was he still editor ? A. He 
was still editor. 

Q. Alter Mr. Hallock had come in ? A. He was editor after 
Mr. Hallock had come in. 

Q. Let me ask you another question ; if he was the editor 
hadn't he the right to put that editorial in ; was there anybody 
in that office or connected with that paper who had the right 
to say that he should not put it in ? A. Yes, there was. 

Q. Who was it ? A. Mr. Hallock. 

Q. Do you mean to say that the editor-in-chief is under the 
control of the owner of the paper as to what he shall do ? 
A. That is an abstraction ; the fact is this : that Mr. Hallock 
was the proprietor of that paper and was not bound by any 
rules that I am familiar with to admit an editorial which he 
deemed prejudicial to the interests of the paper. 

Q. I ask you if it is not true that it is the custom in all 
papers for the editor-in-chief to have entire control of the 
columns irrespective of what the owner might say ? A. No ; 
I thought you knew better. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. You say the sale of the paper was consummated on Sat- 
urday ? A. Yes sir. 

Q. Do you mean to say that the property was actually de- 
livered into the hands of Hallock on Saturday ? A. Yes, cer- 
tainly, by an agreement signed. 



144 

Q. Who were the parties to the agreement of Saturday ? A. 
Mr. Remington and Mr. Hallock. 

Q. Had the trustees been convened to ratify it ; was Mr. 
Remington the proper person to make that contract? A. Mr. 
Kemmgton was the proper person to this extent; we had 
pu 1 - our stock in his hands and he was empowered to act in 
behalf of the interests of the stockholder. 

Q. Was it necessary to convene the Trustees in order to 
ratify the negotiations of Saturday ? A. Nothing more than 
to establish the fact legally and technically, because Mr. Rem- 
ington was authorized and had the power to make such an 
agreement on behalf of the stockholders. 

Q. The paper you refer to was not a sale and transfer ? A. 
Yes, it was a paper of actual sale and transfer. 

Q. Was it in writing ? A. Yes. 

Q. In the name of the Christian at Work Company ? A. In 
the name of Mr. Remington as representing the company ; Mr. 
Remington, as I said before, had our stock in his hands, and 
he had authority from the stockholders to make such a con- 
tract ; the paper had a legal character, it was for value re- 
ceived. 

Q. Was there a meeting of the Trustees of the Christian at 
Work Company, subsequently called in order to ratify that 
agreement? A. There was a meeting called on Tuesday for 
ratification, but it was a merely formal proceeding and nothing 
more ; the sale and transfer had already been effected, and 
that formal ratification was gone through with, in order to 
bring the transfer and sale technically within the law of the 
State of New York in regard to corporations. 

Q. But the sale was not actually made until it was ratified 
by the Trustees ? A. Yes ; the sale was made by Mr. Reming- 
ton, as I have stated. 

Q. Why, then, was it necessary to call a meeting of the 
Trustees to ratify the sale ? A. It was done, as I say, simply 
for the purpose of satisfying a technicality ; the written instru- 
ment was in the name of Mr. Remington and Mr. Hallock, Mr. 
Remington representing the stockholders. 

Q. But the sale was not a sale, was it, until it was ratified 
by the Trustees? A. You can't get me into quibbles of that 



145 



sort ; I am not a lawyer ; what I know is the fact that on Sat- 
urday the sale and transfer took place, and that the parties to 
the transaction were Mr. Remington, representing the stock- 
holders of the company, and Mr. Hallock the purchaser ; the 
agreement of that sale and transfer was made by Mr. Reming- 
ton, who held control of the stock ; he was authorized to act 
on behalf of the stockholders of the company, and to make 
such a contract as he did make, and the stock of the company 
was nearly all placed in his hands by the stockholders for 
that purpose. 

Q. Who' were present at this sale on Saturday ? A. Mr. 
Remington and Mr. Hallock were alone. 

Q, How do you know ? A. I suppose they were. 

Q. Were you there then ? A. If I had been I should have 
known. 

Q. Do you know of anybody else ? A. No, our knowledge 
depends upon our ears as well as upon our eyes ; I understood 
from Mr. Hallock that there was nobody else there. 

Q. I want your positive knowledge on the subject? A. My 
positive knowledge is that Mr. Hallock went and saw Mr. 
Remington at his store, and that there the sale was effected. 

Q. Do you say that absolutely? A. No, sir; because I 
don't know it absolutely in the sense that you refer to. 

Q. Was there a contract between Mr. Remington and Mr. 
Hallock in regard to the sale on Saturday ? A. Yes. 

Q. Was it in written form ? Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you ever see it ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you see it immediately afterward ? A. No. 

Q. When did you see it first ? A. I think I saw it first 
about an hour ago. 

Q. The first time you saw it was when ? A. About an hour 
or two hours ago, I think. 

Q. How do you know that that was the contract made at 
Mr. Remington's store on Saturday ? A. Because Mr. Hal- 
lock told me it was ; he is a man' of veracity, just as you are ; 
that is the way I know it. 

Q. The substance of your testimony about that contract 
then is, that personally, as a matter of fact, you don't know 
anything about it ?* A. Personally I never saw the Coliseum 
19 



146 



at Rome, but I know there is a Coliseum there ; I know- 
that the sale was ratified in that way, though I was not present 
at the time it was done ; as I said before, my knowledge de- 
pends upon my ears as well as my eyes ; a great deal of the 
knowledge that we possess comes to us from extraneous 
sources. 

Q. Did you, in the summer of 1876, or in the early autumn 
of that year, prior to the retirement of Dr. Talmage from the 
Christian at Work, solicit any other ministers to come into the 
paper and assume the editorial relation ? A. That is not a 
fair way to put it ; you are very ingenious ; you are one of the 
most ingenious men I ever knew, and I wish I could say that 
you were ingenuous as well, but I cannot. 

Q. I insist upon an answer? A. I did solicit them to buy 
an interest in the paper when the paper was to be sold. 

Q. Did you correspond with any ministers upon that sub- 
ject ? A. I suppose I did with some ; I did correspond with 
Dr. Ludlow. 

Q. On that subject ? A. I did. 

Q. Did you do that at the suggestion of Dr. Talmage ? A. 
No, sir ; oh, no. 

Q. Did you inform Dr. Talmage that you did so? A. No ; 
I was under no more obligations to inform Dr. Talmage of 
what I was doing in that respect than he was to inform me of 
what he was doing with Mr. Hallock. 

Q. You did not inform him ? A. No more than he informed 
me of what he was doing ; he had too many troubles of his own 
for me to burden him with my private affairs. 

Q. Did you correspond or communicate with any other 
ministers besides Dr. Ludlow on that subject ? A. I think I 
did ; we were all trying to organize companies ; Dr. Talmage 
was trying, Mr. Hawley was trying — we were all trying to see 
what we could do ; I tried Dr. Ludlow and Dr. Porter, and I 
think one or two others ; we all knew that the paper had to be 
sold and we were doing what we could to organize a company 
to buy it. 

Q. Did you correspond with or have communication with 
any other ministers besides Dr. Ludlow upon that subject ? 
A. I have answered that question. 



147 



Q. Answer ray question yes or no ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you, in the summer of 1876, and prior to the time of 
the retirement of Dr. Talmage, solicit any other minister be- 
sides Dr. Ludlow ? A. I think very likely I did. 

Q. How many should you think ? A. I will have to take a 
little time to count them ; I should say one or two. 

Q. You solicited several ministers ? A. I invited them, not 
solicited them. 

Q. The paper that was issued on the 12th of October, 1876, 
is the one that has been shown here, isn't it ? A. Yes. 

Q. The paper ordinarily goes to press Monday night, doesn't 
it ? A. Yes ; unless a surreptitious advertisement and editor- 
ial are to be inserted ! 

Q. Whose property was the paper then? A. Mr. Hal- 
lock's. 

Q. Had it been actually delivered to Mr. Hallock? A. Yes. 
Q. Do you know that ? A. Yes. 

Q. How do you know ? A. Because Mr. Hallock said it had 
been delivered to him. 

Q. You know it upon his statement ? A. I should say I 
did, as I know a good many things from the statements of 
others. 

Q. All you know then, about the sale of this paper, and all 
you know about the negotiations with Mr. Remington, and all 
you know about the legal transfer and sale of the paper, is to 
you hearsay knowledge ? A. I should say it was pretty good 
hearsay knowledge. 

Q. It is to you hearsay knowledge ? A. Oh, yes. 

Q. It is simply going upon hearsay ? A. Yes ; that is the 
way w T e arrive at a great deal of information in this world. 

Q. You were not any party to the transaction at ail, were 
you ? A. Not directly. 

Q. You were not present when the transaction took place ? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Did the Trustees ratify the action of Mr. Remington ? 
A. I think they accepted the report made by Mr. Remington. 

Q. What was that report ? A. That he had sold the paper. 

Q. What else did they do upon that report ; did they ratify 
it ? A. I said they accepted it ; I don't think it needed any 



148 



ratification, because Mr. Eemington had power from the stock- 
holders of the corporation to make that contract ; and what is 
done by the committee or agent of a corporation is done by 
the corporation itself. 

Q. Was it necessary that these Trustees should convene in 
order to make a legal sale ? A. I don't know that it was. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. Who had that contract when you saw it an hour ago ? 
A. Mr. Eemington had it two hours ago ; but I should say, 
according to your view of the matter, that I would not be jus- 
tified in saying that he had it now. 

Q. You say the paper was sold on Saturday, to Mr. Hal- 
lock ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was Dr. Talraage in your employ as editor of the Chris- 
tian at Work, at that time ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When you didn't own the paper ; was he employed by 
the Christian at Work on Saturday, after you had sold the pa- 
per, as editor? A. lam not familiar enough with legal techni- 
calities to give a correct answer to that. 

Q. Did you own the paper at that time ? A. No, sir ; we 
had sold out. 

Q. And Dr. Talmage was no longer in your service, was he? 
A. No, sir ; he was in Mr. Hallock's service. 

Q. Had you given him thirty days' notice that he would be 
out of the employ of the Christian at Work, at that time ? A. 
I don't know whether there was or not ; I don't know of any. 

Q.* Unless notice of thirty days had been given before, he 
was turned out without notice, wasn't he ? A. I don't know 
whether there was notice or not ; there might have been. 

Q. He was employed by the company, and one of the terms 
of that employment was that he was to receive thirty days' 
notice ; now if that sale was made to Mr. Hallock by the 
original company, on Saturday, as you have testified, he 
did not receive thirty days' notice from the old company, did 
he ? A. I don't know whether he had received notice or not ; 
it was not necessary that he should receive notice, because he 
went right on as editor under Mr. Hallock's ownership of the 
paper. 

Q. Mr. Hallock was not a party to the agreement made 



149 



with Dickinson, that he should have thirty days' notice ; 
now, if the paper was sold on Saturday, he was no longer in 
the employment of the original company as editor' was he ? 
A. I should say not. 

Q. After that paper was sold, was Dr. Talmage any longer 
in the employment of the original company, as editor? A. 
No, sir ; he was in the employ of Mr. Hallock 

Q. Then he was out of the employment of the original com- 
pany, without the thirty days' notice which was agreed upon 
having been given him, unless it had been given him previous- 
ly ? A. I don't know anything about that ; but w T hether no- 
tice was given or not, it was, as I said before, unnecessary, be- 
cause Dr. Talmage was in the employ of Mr. Hallock, and 
went on in his employment of editor, precisely the same as he 
had done under the original company. 

Q. But he had been turned out of the original company, 
without the thirty days' notice, hadn't he ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Let me ask you another thing; if Mr. Talmage learned 
that that paper was sold on Saturday — the paper that belonged 
to the company — there was no time for a notice of thirty days 
to be given ? A. That is a hypothetical question which you 
should not put to me. 

Q. There was no paper for Dr. Talmage to edit belonging 
to the original company after the sale to Mr. Hallock? A. 
No ; but he w x as the editor of the paper all the same under the 
ownership of Mr. Hallock — just as he had been when it was 
owned by the original company. 

Q. But no notice of thirty days had been given by the 
original company to Dr. Talmage according to the terms of 
the employment of Dr. Talmage by the original company ? 
A. I don't know about that ; I don't know whether Dr. Tal- 
mage had receive notice or not, but I don't see as it made 
any difference whether he had or had not under the circum- 
stances. 

Q. You say the paper was not sold on Saturday ? A. Yes. 

Q. Then he was out of the employ of the original company 
without any notice ? A. I have answered three or four times 
that I didn't know whether he had notice or not. 

Q. He was out of the employ of the original company with- 



150 



out notice, unless that notice of thirty days had been given 
him before ? A. I don't know anything about it. 
Redirect-examination by Mr. Crosby : 

Q. You spoke of having solicited, or rather invited certain 
ministers to enter into relations with the paper that was being- 
formed ; please state more fully in regard to that ? A. For 
over a year past we knew the Christian at Work was encum- 
bered with a very heavy indebtedness — $50,000 or more — and 
we knew the paper would have to be sold ; I understood from 
Dr. Talmage that there was some friends of his who were in- 
clined to take hold of the paper ; we all knew that something 
was to be done ; I did not tell Dr. Talmage what I was after 
or intending to do any more than he told me of the negotia- 
tions that were going on between himself and Mr. Hallock ; 
it was just this, that we all knew the paper had to be sold ; it 
was simply a question who was to purchase it ; for that reason 
we were all trying to do all we could in the way of organizing 
a company, to buy it out ; I wrote a note to Dr. Porter and to 
Dr. Ludlow, and two or three others about it, but as I say, I 
did not mention what I was doing to Dr. Talmage any more 
than he mentioned to me the negotiations that he and his 
friends were carrying on ; it was simply a question as to who 
was to organize the new company ; of course, if a new com- 
pany was formed, some one belonging to the old company 
would have to drop out, and the question was who it should be. 

Q. You stated in answer to a question put to you by the 
counsel for the defense, upon cross-examination, that the only 
way you knew of the arrangement between Mr. Eemington 
and Mr. Hallock in regard to the sale of the paper was what 
Mr. Hallock told you ; you also testified, did you not, that 
you had seen the contract about an hour or two ago ? A. 
Yes, sir ; I did. 

Q. Did that contract contain the date ? A. Yes. 

Q. You stated that the only way you knew about the arrange- 
ment was from what Mr. Hallock told you ; you have seen the 
contract also, have you not ? A. Yes, I should have said that 
I knew of the arrangement from what Mr. Hallock told me 
and also by reading the contract ; the counsel bothered 
me so that I may have committed an inadvertance that I did 
not mean to. 



151 



Q. Then you have better means of knowledge about that 
than mere hearsay ? A. I have hearsay, and in addition to 
that I have my eyes. 

Correctly transcribed, 

MAESHAL H. BRIGHT. 



Octobek 4, 1879. 

Mr. E. W. Hawley was then called, and being duly sworn, 
testified as follows : 

Examined by Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Where do you reside ? A. Brooklyn. 

Q. How long have you lived in Brooklyn ? A. Nine or ten 
years. 

Q. Are ;you connected with a religious society. A. I am. 
Q. What is your church connection ? A. Congregational — 
Dr. Scudders. 

Q. Do you hold any position in that church ? A. I am a 
deacon in that church. 

Q. What is your business ? A. Publishing Sunday school 
papers. 

Q. Have you been connected with the Christian at Work ? 
A. I have. 

Q. During what year ? A. From 1869 up to the time of the 
sale of the paper. 

Q. When was the sale of the paper ? A. In October, the 
first part of October, 1876. 

Q. When was the Christian at Work company formed? A. 
The Christian at Work publishing company was formed in 
March, 1874 

Q. Who were the incorporators ? A. Dr. Talmage, Mr. 
Remington, Mr. Dickinson, Mr. Bright, ^Mr. King and Mr. 
Corwin, and I subsequently became a Trustee after the incor- 
poration ; but they were the incorporators. 

Q. When did your connection with the paper cease ? A. It 
ceased in that week of March, 1876, in which the paper was 
sold. 

Q. What was your position on that paper while you were 
connected with it ? A. Secretary. 

Q. Did you ever perform other duties besides those of sec- 
retary ? A. I acted as publisher sometimes. 



152 



Q. Do you know whether Dr. Talmage invested any money 
in the concern ? A. He did. 
Q. How much ? A. $1,750. 

Q. Can you tell what his salary was during the years of the 
formation of the company ,from 1874 up to the time that he 
left the paper ? A. From March 1874, to 1875, his salary was 
$5,000, and from that time on until the agreement with Mr. 
Dickinson in the summer of 1876, it was $4,000 ; in addition 
to that we paid him, or we paid for him — paid it to him — $10 
a sermon ; I think that was for his stenographer. 

Q. Did he receive anything else from the paper ? A. He 
received the books that were sent in for review. 

Q. Did he write reviews ? A. No, sir ; we paid for that — 
$500. 

Q. After that agreement with Mr. Dickinson, the last of 
May, what was his salary ? A. 1 think it was at the rate of 
$1,500 a year. 

Q. You say that you sometimes acted as publisher ; can you 
state any particular time when you served in that capacity? 
A. Yes ; I acted as publisher during the interim between the 
resignation of Mr. King as publisher and the employment of 
Mr. Oorwin as publisher. 

Q. What date was it when you ceased to act as publisher — 
about what time ? A. I think Major Cor win began his duties 
as publisher after about a third of September had passed ; 
perhaps it was the 20th, or somewhere along there when he 
came in. 

Q. Did you and the other officers and owners of the paper 
have conversations and conferences about this company, or as 
to who should be publisher, about that time ? A. We did. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage present ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Please state, to the best of your recollection, as far as 
you can remember in substance, any conversations or confer- 
ences that occurred on the subject of who should be publisher, 
when Dr. Talmage was present ? A. I think it was either at 
the regular monthly meeting of the Trustees or at a special 
meeting ; I am of the impression that it was a special meet- 
ing of the Trustees, held, I think, in August, at which Dr. 
Talmage was present, and in which he named Mr. Corwin as 



153 



publisher, and urged very strongly that we should secure his 
services. 

Q. Do you remember anything else that was said at that 
conversation? A. I think a committee was appointed to take 
the matter in hand, either at that meeting or at the next 
monthly meeting after ; Mr. T aim age was urging very strongly 
Mr. Corwin as the publisher ; he said that he had known him 
a long time, and that he was a very energetic man and w T orth 
any four men he ever saw, and if we would take him in he 
would do double work himself on the paper. 

Q. Did he say anything further? A. He said that if Mr. 
Corwin was not a success, he would serve the company a year 
for nothing. 

Q. Was Mr. Remington present at that interview ? A. Yes ; 
Mr. Remington was present. 

Q. .Did these statements of Dr. Ta Image at this meeting 
that you have spoken of, lead to the engagement of Mr. Corwin 
as publisher ? A. They did, and were the main reasons why 
Mr. Corwin was appointed. 

Q. How long did Mr. Corwin remain in that position ? A. 
Six months — from October 1st to April 1st, or March 31st. 

Q. You are a newspaper man, and have been Secretary and 
publisher ; I ask you, as an expert in the newspaper business, 
how those six months, from October to March, compare with 
the whole year in regard to the finances of a weekly paper ? 
A. They are the best six months in the year, altogether. 

Q. Can you explain that any more fully? A. In the fall we 
make very active and earnest efforts to secure subscribers ; 
we lay out our campaign. 

Q. You think those six months are as good as a year? A. 
Yes ; if you don't secure subscribers in those months, you will 
hardly be likely to do it during the remaining six months in 
the year; everybody knows that subscriptions are made gen- 
erally at the close of the year in December, or at the begin- 
ning of the year in January ; it is during that season that the 
largest receipts come in, and if you do not accumulate then, 
you will have a pretty hard time getting through the summer. 

Q. Do you think Mr. Corwin had a fair trial ? A. I think 
20 



154 



lie did for the year ; to cover a year, be had a fair trial in the 
six months I have named. 

Q. Did Mr. Corwin cause the paper to succeed by his man- 
agement? A. He was not successful. 

Q. Please state about that more fully ? A. I think that Mr. 
Corwin was brought into the paper by Dr. Talmage at his re- 
quest and solicitation, and against our better judgment, and 
for this reason — not that I wish to detract from Mr. Corwin's 
energy and ability at all — but we were in a financial difficulty 
that required a man of skillful and experienced management; 
we needed a skillful and experienced publisher to get us over 
our difficulties ; we were in accord, I think, on that occasion 
when we talked the matter over at the meeting of the Trustees 
on this point ; it was distinctly stated that Mr. Corwin must 
know the financial burdens that we were laboring under, and 
that he must know just what he was taking up, and that he 
should be acquainted with the constitution and by-laws under 
which we were organized, and we endeavored to lay that 
clearly before his mind ; Mr. Corwin came, and was earnest 
and faithful, to the best of his ability, in the new position ; his 
work naturally lay in the pushing of the agencies with which 
he w r as familiar from his experience as an insurance man, but 
it was too heavy a load, and there were too many difficulties in 
the way, and of course, there were very many places where he 
failed from his lack of experience ; I should like to add that it 
was, I think, an unfortunate thing, that is, it was not justice to 
ourselves, nor justice to Mr. Corwin — I mean his employment 
as publisher of the company and taking up that severe and 
difficult task in our circumstances ; if we had had plenty of 
money ,and could have had more time to educate Mr. Corwin, 
as a publisher, we might ultimately have succeeded. 

Q. Were the actual results of Mr. Corwin's management 
good or bad for the paper? A. On the whole, unsuccessful. 

Q. You have said that it was through Mr. Talm age's influ- 
ence that Mr. Corwin became the publisher? A. It was. 

Q. Did you ever, in your connection with the paper, while 
you were Secretary of the company, receive any notice of any 
sort, formal or informal, from Dr. Talmage that he intended to 
leave the paper in the fall of 1876 ? A. I did not. 



155 



Q. Did you ever know or learn anything which led you to 
suppose that he was about to withdraw at that time — in the 
fall of 187(3 ? A. No, sir ; not to my best recollection. 

Q. While you were connected with the paper and with the 
company, were there any efforts made to sell the paper to 
other parties ? A. Yes, several ; quite a number. 

Q. When did active efforts to sell the paper begin? A. 
They began actively about the first of April, 1S76. 

Q. Were those efforts to sell the paper continued after that 
date ? A. There was a committee appointed ; the matter was 
referred to Mr. Remington and Mr. Dickinson, although I 
think the editors were also engaged in the negotiations. 

A. Was there any conversation in regard to to this matter 
of selling the paper among the officers and owners of the paper? 
A. It was an open fact for a year that the paper must be 
sold ; Mr. Remington was very anxious that it should be sold 
for such a price as would pay off its indebtedness. 

Q. Do you remember any special conversations when Dr. 
Talmage was present in regard to the sale of the paper? A. 
I cannot distinctly recollect any special occasion, but I am 
quite certain that it was" common talk ; it was a common sub- 
ject of thought among us, especially at our Trustee meetings. 

Q. Was there correspondence upon the subject by the offi- 
cers and owners of the paper ? A. There was. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage have anything to do with this corre- 
spondence ? A. He was in correspondence with Mr. Reming- 
ton on the subject — with Mr. Remington and Mr. Dickinson. 

Q. How do you know ? A. I have seen letters from Mr. 
Dickinson and Mr. Remington to the company, alluding to such 
things. 

Q. You were the Secretary of the company ? A. I was. 

Q. And what was Mr. Remington's connection with the com- 
pany ? A. He was President. 

Q. What was it you said just now? A. I said that I had 
seen letters from Mr. Remington alluding to it. 

Q. Official letters? Yes, sir. 

Q. Between Mr. Remington, as President of the company, 
and yourself as Secretary ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage write any letters to the company on 



156 



the subject? A. I caDnot state, of my own knowledge; do 
you mean addressed to myself as Secretary ? 

Q. Did they come into your possession; did you see any 
letters written by Dr. Talmage ? A. I think I have seen let- 
ters from Dr. Talmage to Mr. Remington on the subject. 

Q. Is it more than a mere thought ; do you recollect seeing 
them ? A. I cannot say. 

Q. At what time was the correspondence in reference to the 
sale of the paper carried on by the company ? A. Through 
the months of 187e\ 

Q. It began, I suppose, about in the spring of 1876 ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage an owner ? A. He was an owner. 
Q. Was he a Trustee ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were there regular meetings of the Trustees ? A. Yes, 
sir ; regular monthly meetings. 

Q. How were they called? A. Called by the Secretary. 

Q. You were the Secretary ? A. Yes, I was the Secretary. 

Q. How did you call them? A. I generally sent a written 
notice to Dr. Talmage and Mr. Remington ; the other members 
— Mr. Dickinson and others, I invited oralty — they were in the 
office ; sometimes I invited Dr. Talmage orally, but I gener- 
ally sent him a written notice. 

Q. Did you always notify him? A. It was my duty and I 
always tried to do my duty. 

Q. What was Dr. Tal mage's habit in regard to attending 
these meetings? A. He was not regular at all; he was very 
frequently absent. 

Q. Was there any change, while yon were Secretary, of his 
habit in reference to his attending these meetings ? A.I think 
he was very frequently absent during the last months of 1876 
and some of 1875. 

Q. What months dn you have reference to especially? A. 
April, May, June, July and August ; I think he was absent all 
along in those months, and September too. 

Q. Do you remember his attending any meeting during that 
summer ? A. I cannot remember of his being present but one 
week. 

Q. Do you remember that he was not present at any of 
them ? A. No, I do not mean to say that. 



157 



Q. You mean that you know that he was Dot present at all 
of them ? A. Yes ; if it is important, I have got a memorandum 
and I can look at that. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage present at any time when the sale of 
the paper was discussed? A. I think he was ; I am quite sure 
he was. 

Q. Did you ever attend to the advertising of the paper ? A. 
Occasionally. 

Q. Do you remember anything that occurred just about that 
time in regard to the advertising ? A. I do. 

Q. Please state what you recollect? A. About two weeks 
before this memorable issue of the paper I received a proposi- 
tion from C. H. Howard & Co., editors of the Advance, to 
make exchange advertisements with them, and they requested 
an early answer ; I laid the letter aside to consult with Mr. 
Conklin, who was attending to our advertising then, and the 
letter was mislaid, and I forgot about it ; I received another 
communication from them about a week after, in which they 
called my attention to the former letter, saying " we have no 
" answer, and desire an immediate answer," also saying " we 
" wish to avail ourselves of it in the next issue of the paper." 

Q. Have you got that letter ? A, I have not. 

Q. Is it in existence? A. No, sir ; I will say that we moved 
our office about two years ago, and in moving I burned up 
very many letters — such letters as were of no importance at 
all after the affairs to which they related had been disposed of, 
and I am certain that must have been among the letters that 
were burned ; I am certain I have looked for it and I cannot 
find it; I know I received these letters; they made an im- 
pressiou on my mind ; I might add that when I received the 
second letter I went to Mr. Conklin and asked him if we had 
better accept that offer and make an exchange advertisement 
with the Advance; he said we had better ; that we had got 
room enough for it and that we had better take it, and so I left 
the matter in Mr. Conklin's hands ; I never saw the advertise- 
ment or knew its nature. 

Q. How long had the negotiations with Mr. Hallock been 
going on before the paper was finally sold to him ? A. I think 
for about a year. 



158 



Q. Was it a subject of conversation frequently among the 
officers and owners of the paper generally? A. It was. 

Q. Where were those conversations held? A. Generally in 
the office. 

Q. Had you received any direction or suggestion to keep 
these negotiations secret from any one ? A. Never, in any 
shape whatever. 

Q. You had not been told to keep them from Dr. Talmage ? 
A. We had nothing to keep from Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Did you ever hear the subject of Mr. Hallock's purchase 
of the paper talked about when Dr. Talmage was present ? A. 
I think Dr. Talmage said something to me about Mr. Hallock. 

Q. Do you remember anything that he said? A. Nothing 
special, but generally that he was and would be a good man 
for the paper. 

Q. Can you place that interview at any time? A. I cannot; 
the time is quite indefinite to me ; I never charged my mind 
with it and it has been two or three years ago. 

Q. Did you know any facts in regard to Mr. Hallock's re- 
lation to Dr. Talmage, and if 30 state what they were? 

The Witness : I do not remember being present at any inter- 
view when Mr. Hallock and Dr. Talmage were present. 

Q. You have testified that Dr. Talmage spoke to you about 
Mr. Hallock? A. Yes, and I can testify that Mr. Hallock 
spoke to me about Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Did you ever see them together that you know of? A. 
I cannot recall it. 

Q. In any conversation with, you, did Dr. Talmage express 
himself in regard to Mr. Hallock in any other way than that in 
regard to which you have already testified ? A. No, no other 
way. 

Q. Did you see Dr. Talmage on Monday October 9, 1876 ? 
A. I did. 

Q. Where ? A. He was in the office ; I thought he was 
there more than usual that day and in very fine spirits ; he 
generally was in pretty good spirits, but he seemed remarkably 
well pleased with something that day. 

Q. You noticed his manner then ? A. I did ; I noticed his 
manner particularly. 



159 



Q. Did you have any conversation with Dr. Talmage on that 
day ? A. I did. 

Q. Please give the substance of it, what he said and what 
you said as near as you can remember ? A. He was by my 
desk ; he was standing and I was sitting ; I looked up as he 
stood there and said, " Dr. Talmage you will be at the meeting 
to-morrow noon, will you," and be said " yes." 

Q. What time in the day was this? A. It was noon-time. 

Q. Is that as near as you can fix it ? A. I cannot fix the 
exact hour nor the exact half-hour ; it might have been twelve 
or it might have been one, or it might have been between. 

Q. At what time was the completion of the paper usually 
effected ? A. About 5 or 6 o'clock in the evening. 

Q. At what hour was the paper readv for the press on that 
day, so far as you know? A. Just before leaving the office, 
about a little after five, say half-past five — I went into the com- 
position rooms and asked for the proofs of the forms ; they 
were given ^to me and by that I judged they were ready for the 
press except the last page ; the advertising page was not shown 
me, they saying it was not ready yet (handing witness paper). 

Q. Is that the paper as you saw it at that time ? A. No. 

Q. What is the difference ? A. It hadn't this advertisement 
on the last page, nor the editorial on the first page. 

Q. You said you did not seethe advertising page? A. I 
was thinking of the paper I saw the next morning, in reference 
to the last page ; 1 saw all the proofs except this last one. 

Q. What time was it in the evening that you saw the proofs 
ready for the press ? A. About 5| o'clock. 

Q. What was the condition of that page? A. It had a 
general editorial but it did not have that £ .' Good bye, old friends." 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage, so far as you know, in the habit of 
visiting the office in the evening? A. No, sir; not to my 
knowledge. 

Q. Did you ever know him to clo so? A. I never did. 

Q. Who paid the compositors and pressmen for their work 
ordinarily ? A. The composition was taken in our own office ; 
we had let the contract out to Lefierts & Cobb, and they su- 
perintended that department, and we paid Lefferts & Cobb, 
and they paid for the work. » 



160 



Q. You were the agent of the company to pay them — you 
handed them over the money? A. Yes ; so far as the press- 
work was conceited, that was done by a firm outside ; we had 
a contract with them, and paid them so much per ream. 

Q. How late on the Monday evening preceding the publica- 
tion of the paper were those compositors ami pressmen accus- 
tomed to work? A. Not later than six. I believe; I never 
stayed to see them all out of the office. 

Q. Did you know that the work was to be continued later 
than usual on the evening of October 9th ? A. I knew nothing 
about it. 

Q. How late did that work continue on the night of the 9th? 
A. I do not know j'rom personal knowledge. 

Q. When did you first ascertain that this work had been 
continued later than usual that night? A. I learned that 
there was something wrong the next day about 10 o'clock. 

Q. "Were either the compositors or the pressmen under any 
obligations in regard to their arrangement with the company 
to work at night without extra pay ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you, either on behalf of the Christian at Work com- 
pany or Mr. Halleck, pay for extra work done on the night of 
the 9th of October? A. I have never paid for it. 

Q. Did you know whether they were paid ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who was paid ? A. E. B. iJodge & Co. did our press- 
work, and they were paid. 

Q. How do you know? A. By Mr. Dodge telling me. 

Q. Is that the only means of knowledge you have ? A. I 
think it is. 

Q. Were you in the office on the morning of the 10th of 
October, 1876 ? A. Yes , I was there at 9 o'clock ; at 9 o'clock 
I saw a copy of one of the first proofs of the paper laying on 
my table ; I took it up and it was identical with the proof that 
I saw the night before. 

Q. W as it all right ? A. Yes ; it was all right. 

Q. Did you carefully examine the proof the night before ? 
A. I did. 

Q. Was it your habit to make a careful examination of the 
paper in the evening ? A. It was not. 

Q. Why did you carefully examine that edition ? A. At the 
request of Mr. Hallock 



161 



Q. When you found ''the paper on your table on the morn- 
ing of the 10th, was that valedictory in it? A. It was not. 

(Signed) E. W. HAWLEY. 
J. MILTON GEEENE, Stated Clerk. 
Presbytery adjourned. 

Apeil 2d, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 2d, at 3 p. m. 

Mr. J. N. Hallock was called, and being duly sworn, testi- 
fied as follows : 
Examined by Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Please state your place of residence ? A. I am living at 
present at 1*28 De Kalb avenue, Brooklyn. 

Q. Have you lived in Brooklyn a long time ? A. I have. 

Q. State your church relations ? A. I am a member of the 
Congregational Church. 

Q. Are you acquainted with the Rev. Dr. Talmage? A. I am. 

Q. How long have you been acquainted with him? A. I 
don't know ; a good while. 

Q. Did you have any interviews with him in the summer of 
1875? A. Yes ; I had two or three interviews at East Hamp- 
ton, Long Island ; the first interview that I recollect now at 
East Hampton, was held on or about the first day of August, 
lb75 ; my parents lived down in the same county, and I some- 
times had occasion to go down there and visit them, and I 
was going down there on that occasion, though it was on the 
other end of the island. 

Q. There is a letter in evidence from Mr. Talmage, written 
August 8th, 1875, at East Hampton, in which he says : " Mr. 
Hallock, the present publisher of the Liberal Christian, called 
to see me a few days ago ; I have known him for a long time ; 
I believe he has all the elements of a successful publisher ; he 
is an evangelical man ; has been connected with the Liberal 
Christian merely as a business man, not believing in it ; he 
wants to leave, has money, would take his pay in percent- 
ages," &c; does that refer to the interview of which you are 
now speaking ? A. Yes. 

Q. Does that refresh your mind in regard to the time at 
which that interview was held ? A. Yes ; I suppose that let- 
21 



162 



ter must have been written just after the interview that I have 
referred to ; I know the interview was along in the first part of 
August ; I went clown to East Hampton, and I called at Dr. 
Talmage's residence particularly to talk with him about pub- 
lishing the Christian at Work ; I do not think that Dr. Tal- 
mage had requested me to do so at that time — I do not recol- 
lect whether he did or not ; I am not under the impression 
that he did ; I called at Dr. Talmage's and had quite a long 
conference with him, about two hours ; he met me very cor- 
dially, indeed ; we talked the whole matter over about the 
Christian at Work ; he did not seem to be on very good terms 
— that is not exactly the word — he did not seem to have very 
much confidence in the old management, and he wished that 
I would take hold of it ; I did not think about buying it at 
that time ; I had not thought a great deal about it ; I wanted 
to publish it because Dr. Talmage was the editor, and I be- 
lieved in him, and thought a good deal of him. 

Q. That was the first interview ; were there other interviews 
after that? A. Yes, sir; I went down afterwards on purpose 
to see him ; I recollect it was August 24 ; I went down on the 
steamboat and staid all night, and in the morning of 
the 25th of August, I saw Dr. Talmage and talked the 
whole thing over ; I recollect particularly that Dr. Tal- 
mage said that I ought to take hold of it; 
that I was just the man to take hold of it ; 
he spoke of Mr. Corwin or Major Corwin, but said 
that Major Corwin was at that time connected with an insur- 
ance company, and had a larger salary than the Christian at 
Work could afford to give him ; I said I would take the paper 
on a percentage ; I knew it was largely in debt, but I thought 
it was a pretty good paper, and I believed that, with Dr. Tal- 
mage as the editor, if I could take hold of it and take charge 
of the publishing department, there might be something per- 
haps made out of it, and I so talked to Dr. Talmage, and he 
agreed with me ; I had a copy of the Liberal Christian in my 
pocket, and I took it out and showed it to him, and we looked 
over it and we laughed over it ; he had some of his papers, 
with his sermons printed in them, and he showed me how 
largely they were being published ; I recollect he said he had 



163 



mentioned to Mr. Eemington, on a previous occasion, that he 
would like me to come in and take hold, and I told him I would 
take hold of the paper on a percentage ; I think I told him I 
would take hold of it for ten percent, of the profits; I did not feel 
any great amount of confidence that I could make much money 
out of the paper, but I thought, as I stated before, that per- 
haps, if Dr. Talmage was the editor, and I had charge of the 
publishing department and the business management, it might 
be made a paying institution, and I was willing to take hold of 
it without any salary even, and if I did not succeed I would 
not get anything out of it, and if I did succeed I was willing to 
take it on the basis of ten per cent. ; I am not sure about the ten 
per cent., but it was on the basis of a percentage of the profits ; 
we talked it all over that day, and I recollect that when I left 
he grasped me by the hand and said, " Hallock, you are just 
the man that God has raised up to become the publisher of 
the Christian at Work " ; I thought so too, and I thought he 
was just the man for editor ; we agreed perfectly about that. 

Q. Were there any subsequent interviews on that subject ? 
A. I do not recollect as we had any other interviews. 

Q. Never ? A. Oh, yes ; I mean there in East Hampton at 
that time ; Mr. Corwin became publisher shortly after that, 
and remained publisher for some months. 

Q. I will now ask yon to come to your interview with Dr. 
Talmage ? A. I had an interview with him on March 6th, at 
Brooklyn ; I recollect that he sent a note to me asking me to 
call. 

Q. (Handing witness letter.) Is that the note ? A. Yes, 
sir ; that is the note that was sent to my home by Dr. Tal- 
mage's boy. 

Brooklyn, March 6th, 1876. 
Dear Mr. Hallock, — Will you call at my house this even- 
ing before or by eight o'clock. If so, at what time ? 
Yours, etc., 

(Signed) T. DeWITT TALMAGE. 

No 1 South Oxford street. 

Marked " Exhibit No. 1, April 2d, 1879." 

Q. The interview that you have just finished relating, was 
the one which took place on the 25th of August ? A. Yes, 
sir. 



164 



Q. Didn't you have any intercourse with Dr. Talmage on the 
subject during the interval? A. I don't think I had ; I went 
to the Tabernacle on one or two occasions ; I think I saw him 
there. 

Q. But there was no interview specially that you remember? 
A. Yes, sir ; I recollect once at the Tabernacle, after the ser- 
vices were over, I had an interview with him ; Mr. Corwin was 
appointed publisher ; after the meeting was out I went up to 
Dr. Talmage and said : " Well, Dr. Talmage, you have got an- 
other publisher ;" he said : " Oh, well, you and I will hitch 
horses yet ;" I said : "I guess we will ; " I recollected that; I 
don't know whether there were any other interviews during 
that time ; there may have been. 

Q. Did you respond to this note ? A. I did ; that was 
March 6th, 1876 ; I was at home and received the note person- 
ally ; I told Dr. Talmage's son that it was all right ; that I 
would call around there and see him ; I called around and 
I found Dr. Talmage at home ; he received me with many ex- 
pressions of his regard for me, and he said he wanted me to 
take hold of the Christian at Work with him ; that was the 
evening of March 6th ; I staid there some time and talked the 
matter over with him ; he wanted me to purchase the Chris- 
tian at Work ; I agreed with him and made up my mind if I 
could get it for a reasonable price I would purchase it ; I re- 
collect he said to me at that time : " Hallock, if you will pur- 
chase the Christian at Work, retaining me as the editor, (of 
course that was the basis of the whole thing), I will give you 
my services the first year for nothing ;" those were the words 
that he used as nearly as I can recollect ; at any rate he offered 
to give me his services for one year gratuitously and it was on 
the basis, clearly expressed and understood, that I was to 
buy the paper and retain him as editor ; what was said then 
was nothing more than what was repeated afterwards, and was 
nothing more than an agreement on my part and a reminder on 
his, of what we had referred to over and over again before 
the purchase of the paper. 

Q. Did he say anthing to you about the condition of the 
paper at that time? A. Yes; he explained that it was largely 
j[n debt, and I remember that it had sunk over $25,000 that 



165 



year ; I found that out afterwards ; at Mr. Talmage's request 
I went to Mr. Remington, and he gave me a note to the book- 
keeper, and I went over the books to see how things stood 
and I found that the deficit for 1876 was $25,290 odd dollars, 
and if I recollect right, for 1875 it was fifteen thousand and 
some odd hundred dollars ; the result of my examination of 
the books was to find out these figures ; it will be observed 
that the deficit had increased ten thousand dollars from 1875 
to 1876, and it struck me that if it went on increasing in that 
way, I should not make a great deal of money. 

Q. Were there any other interviews ? A.. Yes; I had a good 
many interviews ; this was March 6th ; I find from a little 
memoranda made at that time simply these words : " Thurs- 
day evening March 9th, 1876, spent with Dr. Talmage ; my 
wife says, I didn't get home till eleven o'clock ; " I should say 
from that, that I was there a good w T hile as that memoranda 
was made at the time ; if I spent the evening with Dr. Talm- 
age, I spent it at his house. 

Q. Do you remember the subject of the conversation that 
evening? A. Our conversation that evening was upon this 
general subject ; it was a continuation of the conversation on 
March 6th ; the interviews that I had with Dr. Talmage when 
he had sent for me, were always interviews upon this subject 
of the Christian at Work, and retaining him as editor. 

Q. Do you remember any other interviews ? A. This was 
on March 9th, 1876 ; I took lunch there once with Dr. Tal- 
mage ; I recollect that very well ; we had a real jolly time 
that night ; I didn't go there for lunch ; I went there at Dr. 
Talmage's request to talk about the Christian at Work, but I 
staid there so long that he said; "we'll go down and get 
something to eat ; " we did not take anything strong to drink; 
we went down and I recollect that I sat by the side of Dr. 
Talmage ; Mrs. Talmage did not eat anything ; she read out 
of Dr. Talmage's organ the Brooklyn Eagle, and she enteitained 
us by reading one thing and another, and finally she came to 
an accident where somebody had been killed, and began to 
read ; we had eggs on toast, and Dr. Talmage said, " hold 
on " 

The Witness — I withdraw all that ; I stated it simply be- 



166 



cause it refreshed my mind as to this interview ; I stated it 
for that purpose particularly because I remember that Dr. 
Talmage was very lively and very jolly, and I remember that 
I thought, that is just the man exactly I want to work with 
me; I know the cordiality and geniality of his manner made 
an impression upon me at the time, and that is the reason why 
I related the circumstances about the lunch ; just as I was 
ready to go home, he told me that I was just the man he 
wanted to work with, and that he could work with me better 
than he could with any other man ; he was so lively and so 
jolly with me, that it made an impression upon me at the time. 

Q. State the interviews that passed between you and Dr. 
Talmage in reference to this matter of the Christian at Work ? 
A. All the interviews were for that purpose and for nothing 
else. 

Q. State the details of those interviews ? A. All the talk 
was about that ; I had an interview in Brooklyn with Dr. 
Talmage at Major Corwin's at one time ; I cannot give the 
exact date of it ; it was right along however with these nego- 
tiations ; Dr. Talmage's son came around to my house ; I was 
then living at 549 Dean street, Brooklyn ; he came with a verbal 
message and told my wife to ask me to come around there that 
evening ; when I came home from business my wife told me 
about the message, and I called around ; I saw Dr. Talmage, 
and he said to me : " Now then, I want you to come over with 
me and talk with the former publisher, Major Corwin, about 
these things ; " I recollect it was in the evening, and we 
stopped at the Lay College at a meeting that was being held, 
and Dr. Talmage made some remarks and introduced me to 
some of the people ; at its close, Dr. Talmage took me by the 
arm and piloted me to Major Corwin's ; I did not know where 
he lived then ; he introduced me to him, and we passed into 
the room back of the parlor, I think it was, and there we sat 
down to have a conversation ; Dr. Talmage asked me if I could 
get out an edition of the Christian at Work within a week, on 
my own type, without any appearance of stoppage, until we 
could furnish a paper to all the subscribers. 

Dr. Speak — About when was that? A. I should say that 
was along toward the middle of March, according to the best 
of my recollection at this moment. 



167 



Q. Have you looked at any memoranda to refresh your 
memory ? A. I have not ; I did not make any memoranda at 
the time at all ; he asked me if I could get out an edition of 
the Christian at Work without any apparent stoppage, within 
a week ; he says : " Can you get out an edition of the Christian 
at Work on your own type, so that you can furnish all the sub- 
scribers without any appearance of stoppage of the paper at 
the regular time ? " That was the idea ; I do not know that I 
can give just exactly the words ; my reply to that was that I 
thought I could, but it would require a good deal of effort on 
my part to do so ; he then said to me : " I will tell you my 
plan ; get out at once a paper called the Christian Work " ; he 
said that he thought that was a better name than the Christian 
at Work ; he said " at " was an awkward name, or somethiug 
like that ; he said " You shall be the publisher and I will be 
the editor, and we will have the list of the Christian at Work;" 
at that Major Corwin lifted up his finger and pointed toward 
the desk at the east end of the room, and he said : " Yes, I 
have the entire mail list of the Christian at Work in the desk;" 
I thiuk there was some remark made about this time by my- 
self about the list and the name not belonging to private in- 
dividuals, but to the Christian at Work company ; I remember 
that Dr. Talmage said : " Why, the list is practically mine ; 
these subscribers are my friends, who have been induced to 
subscribe upon my account, and," he said, " we will not have 
exactly the same name, we will leave out the word ' at ' ; we 
will have the same heading without the word ' at ' " ; I cannot 
give you the exact words, but I can give you the exact sub- 
stance ; he said : " We will fill the unexpired subscriptions 
with our new paper, the Christian Work, from Corwin's list, 
without charge, and as fast as they expire, one after another, 
they will all follow me ; " that was the language that he used, 
as near as I can recollect ; at any rate, it was certainly the sub- 
stance ; then he said there would be a small number, I think 
five hundred, or some small number, that would remain with 
Mr. Remington ; I am not positive about the number men- 
tioned in the last sentence, but that was the idea — that only a 
small number of the subscribers of the Christian at Work would 
remain with Mr. Remington, and that the balance would follow 
him. 



168 



Q. You are perfectly sure that that was the substance of 
that conversation ? A. I am ; some of it is the very language 
he used ; I know the word Remington was used, and recollect 
also the word type was used — " on my own type ;" and that 
made an impression on my mind at the time ; I recollect also 
that he said that we should have the entire list ; I think his 
words were, we should have the entire list ; I think he said, 
" they will all follow me ; we shall have the entire list ;" I am 
almost certain that these were his words. 

Q. What else occurred at this interview ; what did you say 
to this proposition '? A. I did not say much ; I made a remark 
to the effect that the Christian at. Work Company would 
not allow it ; I did noi think much of the Gospel side of it ; I 
made some remark of its not being iegal, and that the Chris- 
tian at Work Company would not allow it ; then it was drop- 
ped, and it was not referred to again, as I remember, 

Q. Was there anything else that occurred at the time of 
that interview before you left the house ? A. No ; I think it 
was dropped ; when I said that it could not be done, or that it 
was not legal, the thing was not pressed. 

Q. Have you exhausted that interview ; have you stated all 
that you can remember about it ? A. I have. 

Q. Do you remember any interview after that, or just before 
it, or about that time ? A. I met Mr. Remington there once, 
at Dr. Talm age's, at some previous interview. 

Q. Can you recollect the time of that interview with Mr. 
Remington at Mr. Tal mage's house ; he testified about it the 
other day, and he could not fix the time ; he seemed to have 
forgotten about the date of the interview? A. It was some- 
time after the first of March ; I should put it somewhere in 
March, but I could not undertake to give the exact date. 

Q. Can you recollect with reference to the interview that 
you have just spoken of ? A. Not certainly ; I should say it 
was after that, but 1 could not undertake to be precise ; I did 
not make a minute of it. 

Q. Tell us about that interview? A. At some time, 
when Dr. Talmage and I were talking the subject over, Dr. 
Talmage made the remark to me that Mr. Remington and I 
ought to come together, or ought to be brought together, and 



169 



close the thing up ; lie said, " I will write to Mr. Remington, 
and appoint an interview at my house ;" I told him, all right ; 
that I would come, and soon after I received a letter. 

Q. (Handing witness letter.) Is that the letter you received 
at the time ? A. Yes. 

(Mr. Crosby reads letter, marked Exhibit No. 2, April 2, 
79.) : 

Mr. Hallock, — Please be at my house a little before seven, 
this evening. I wrote Remington the letter we proposed. He 
will be here at seven. 

Yours, etc., 

Thursday. T. De W. TALMAGE. 

Q. I will ask you about that letter ; Mr. Remington testified 
that by the invitation of Mr. Talmage he called at his house, 
and, as the invitation read, it was to meet certain gentlemen ; 
and in accordance with the invitation, he went to Dr. Talmage's 
house, and there met Mr. Hallock ; he said that he had ex- 
pected to meet other persons there, but that no one was pres- 
ent at that interview but Mr. Hallock ; Mr. Talmage says in 
this note, '* I wrote Remington " (the letter " I " is scratched 
out, and " we " is interlined) ; " the letter we proposed," does 
that refer to the interview ? A. Yes. 

Q. What letter was it that you and Dr. Talmage proposed 
to write ? A. We proposed to write a letter to Mr. Reming- 
ton to meet me there at Dr. Talmage's house, for the purpose 
of consummating, if possible, the purchase of the paper. 

Q. Did you and Dr. Talmage propose any other parties to 
be met there ? A. No, sir ; no other parties to meet there. 

Q. State what occurred at that interview at his house be- 
tween you and Mr. Remington and Dr. Talmage ? A. I called 
there, in accordance with his invitation, and met Mr. Reming- 
ton, and we tried to come to terms ; Mr. Remington would 
not fix any definite price, that I recollect, for the paper ; I 
recollect then that Dr. Talmage said to him that he thought 
he ought to take $20,000, and that he thought it was a fair and 
square thing ; Mr. Remington replied to him : " I do not think 
it is fair or square ;" I would have been willing to have paid 
that amount at that time, but Mr. Remington wanted a good 
deal more, and we did not clinch the bargain. 
22 



170 



Q. You did not buy the paper at that time A. Not at that 
time ; no, sir, but I did afterwards : 

Q. Did Dr Talmage ever find any fault with you about these 
negotiations ? 

Dr. Speak — What negotiations are you speaking about now ? 
Mr. Crosby — On any subject whatever. 

The Witness — Do you mean negotiations in regard to the 
purchase of the Christian at Work? that is all the negotiations 
we had. 

Mr. Crosby — I do not know that negotiations is the strict 
legal term to use ; you can call them conversations. 

A. I tried very hard to buy the paper ; if those were not ne- 
gotiations I do not know the meaning of the teim. 

Q. Did Dr. Talimge write to you about these things? A. 
Yes. he did ; I told Dr. Talmage what Mr. Remington told me, 
and I told Mr. Remington what Dr. Talmage told me ; I recol- 
lect that Dr. Talmage found fault with me for it, and said that 
I told him altogether too much. 

Q. (Handing wdtness letter.) Did he also write you that letter 
about that time ? A. Yes, sir ; he wrote me about being non- 
committal. 

(Mr. Crosby reads letter marked Exhibit No. 3, April 2, '79) : 
Dear Mr. Hallock, — Better be non-committal in your con- 
versations with Remington. Don't tell him what other paper 
we might absorb in our new project nor how much capital. I 
tell him that w T e could get almost any amount of capital. 
I have an idea that Downs has several hundred thousand dol- 
lars. But Remington is decidedly disposed to quote you and 
try to bring your statement in collision with my own. I leave 
for Montreal to-day. 

Yours, etc., 

Monday. T. De W. TALMAGE. 

Q. Is that letter dated ? A. No, sir ; I cannot fix the date 
of the letter. 

Q. Can you state from your memory the approximate date ? 
A. Should say it was in the March of IS 76. 

Q. That is as near as you can recollect? A. Yes, at this 
present moment. 

Q. He says : " Better be non-committal in your conversa- 



171 



tion with Remington," wbat does that refer to? A. That I 
told him about things and he did not want me to tell him 
everything. 

Q, State what Dr. Talmage told you in regard to the letter? 
A. Do you mean in regard to the specific point of being non- 
committal with Mr. Remington ? 

Q. Yes ? A. He did not want me to tell Mr. Remington 
everything about the negotiations ; he said, or rather the idea 
was, that it ought to appear that we had something back of us 
and that we were ready to swallow up other papers and gener- 
ally make a big thing of it. 

Q. He says here : " Do not tell him what other paper we 
might absorb in our new project;" what other paper might you 
and Dr. Talmage absorb in your project? A. We talked about 
the Methodist. 

Q. You have testified in regard to the interviews at Dr. 
Talmage's house and on Long Island in the summer before ; 
can you remember any interviews at any other place ? A. Yes, 
sir ; we had an interview at the office of the Liberal Christian — 
more than one interview ; I recollect he came in there once 
when the bookkeeper was. there, and heard some of the conver- 
sation ; he wanted me to take hold of the Christian at Work ; 
yes, we had more than one interview ; R. M. Bellowes was in 
there at the time. 

Q. (Handing witness letter). Do you identify that letter? 
A. Yes. 

(Mr. Crosby reads letter Exhibit No. " 4," April 2, 1879.) 

New Yoke. 

Dear Mr. Hallock, — Send me time when I can find you 
between 5 & 6 o'c. (say your office), and I will call. 

Please to wait. 

Yrs., 

Wednesday. T. Dfi W. TALMAGE. 

Q. Has that letter ever been published ? A. No, sir. 
• Q. He sa}< s here : " Dear Mr. Hallock, send me over word 
where I can find you between five and six o'clock, please to 
wait," etc. — there is no date to this letter; can you fix the 
date ? A. No, sir. 

Q. How near can yon fix it? A. I should say it was in 
March or April. 



172 



Q. You think it must have been about that time ? A. Yes, 
sir ; it must have been. 

Q. You are very sure? A. Yes, sir; I think it must have 
been. 

Q. Where is your office ? A. 216 Broadway. 

Q. Did you wait ? A. I did wait ; he called in there and 
we talked over the whole matter in regard to purchasing the 
Christian at Work. 

Q. When did you purchase the Christian at Work ? A. Oc- 
tober 7, 1876. 

Q. Was there any contract ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. (Handing witness paper) Is that the contract? A. Yes ; 
that is the contract made between Mr. Eemington and myself, 
at Mr. Eemington's office ; it is dated ahead on Friday, but it 
was cot made on Friday ; the contract in Mr. Remington's 
store was made on Saturday. 

(Mr. Crosby reads contract marked Exhibit No. 5, April 2, 
1879.) 

It is understood and agreed between E. Eemington and J. 
N. Hallock, that the offer of the latter of $10,000, for the sub- 
scription list and good will of the Christian at Work, &c, as 
made to the former, is accepted with the addition of $500, for 
type in mail list, making the total of $10,500. 

And it is further understood and agreed, that in case Mr- 
Eemington should want to sell the type, imposing stones, &c. 
of the Christian at Work, he can do so by giving said Hallock 
a fair notice of at least 30 days. 

E. EEMINGTON, 
J. N HALLOCK. 

New York, October 6, 1876. 
In presence of E. W. Hawley. 

Q. You sa.y the date is wrong? A. Yes, sir; the date is 
wrong ; it was made on Saturday afternoon — late on Saturday 
afternoon, to the best of my recollection ; I am morally certain 
that the date is wrong ; that it was late on the afternoon *of 
Saturday instead of Friday ; Mr. Hawley wrote it cut and 
signed it as a witness. 

Q. What day of the week was it? A. It was Saturday, I 
think. 



173 



Q. Are you very sure ? A. I am not sure, but I am very 
certain it was. 

Q. You are sure about the time of clay? A. Yes, sir ; it was 
very late in the afternoon. 

Q. How late? A. Just about the closing time, I think, of 
the office of the Christian at Work — perhaps six o'clock. 

Q. It was executed in the presence of E. W. Hawley ? A. 
Yes, sir ; I am morally certain that it was Saturday afternoon. 

Q. Is that all you paid for the Christian at Work, $10,500 ? 
A. No, sir ; I paid $2,000, shortly after that for some stock 
and fixtures, and carried on the paper until the subscriptions 
began to come in, which came to about as much more ; it 
came to about $25,000 in all to get it started. 

Q. When had you seen Dr. Talmage ? A. The day pre- 
vious ; on Friday, October 6th, I saw Dr. Talmage crossing- 
City Hall Park, New York. 

Q. What time of the day ? A. It was early in the afternoon • 
I had been wanting to see Dr. Talmage, and I went up to him 
and I said, " whj r , you are the very man I want to see," and 
he made the same remark to me ; I said, " Dr. Talmage, I am 
about buying the Christian at Work, and laughingly said, " I 
will not hold you to your bargain to work lor me for a year 
for nothing, but I will give you $2,000 for the first year out of 
my own pocket, and if the paper is profitable, more ;" Dr. 
Talmage seemed very much pleased indeed, and he invited me 
to get into a stage and go up with him ; I told him I had an 
engagement, and he said very well, we will talk it all over 
Monday ; that was the substance of the interview. 

Q. Did you see him on Monday ? A. I did ; on Monday I 
went there to the office of the Christian at Work to see him ; I 
met Mr. Cone going clown stairs, and I asked him if Mr. Tal- 
mage was in, and he said, " yes ;" and I told him I wanted to 
see him, and he said that he would go up and call him down ; 
that was on Monday, October 9th, along toward noon-time, 
about between eleven and twelve o'clock. 

Q. Narrate again that interview with Dr. Talmage on Mon- 
day? A. I started over to the office of the Christian at Work, 
and I was just going up stairs to see Dr. Talmage, when I met 
E. P. Cone, who was the former advertising manager of the 



174 



Christian at Work Company, and I said, " is Dr. Talmage in ?*' 
and he said, " yes ; will go up and tell him you want to see 
him ;" I said very well, and he went up, and Dr. Talmage 
came down and took me by the arm and said, " we will go 
over to the Astor House ;" we went over to the Astor House, 
and Dr. Talmage looked around for a parlor where we could 
sit, and be free from observation, and we went in and sat down 
there, and I put this paper before him ; it is the paper in which 
I had offered him two thousand dollars, as I had told him on 
Friday. 

Q. (Handing witness paper.) Is that the paper that you put 
before him ? A. Yes, sir. 

(Mr. Crosby reads the paper marked Exhibit No. 6, April 
2d, 1879.) 

New Yoek, Oct. 9, 1876. 

In consideration of the fact that J. N. Hallock is intending 
to clear the Christian at Work entirely from debt, and put it 
upon a healthy cash paying basis, I do hereby promise and 
agree with him, in consideration furthermore of the sum of 
two thousand ($2,000) dollars, to be paid by him to me, in 
equal monthly installments, to continue to furnish my sermons 
and also my services as heretofore, as editor exclusively of the 
Christian at Work, for one year from this date. 

The Witness — Dr. Talmage was very much pleased, and 
read it all over. Says he, " Have you bought the paper ?" I 
said yes, I have bought it ; but he did not sign it ; he hesitated 
and said, " If you had put that paper before me only a week 
ago, I would have signed it at once ; as it is, I will give you an 
answer to-morrow ;" I did not know what to make of it ; it 
was giving to him, instead of his agreement to work for me for 
nothing, $2,000 as a salary, when he was receiving but $1,500, 
as I was informed at that time ; I did not understand his con- 
duct at all ; I went over to my office and sat down and thought 
" what does it mean ?" 

Q. You put that paper before Mr. Talmage ? A. Yes, and 
he took it and read it all over very carefully. 

Q. But he did not sign it ? A. No, sir. 

Q. What did he say in regard to it ? A. " If you had shown 
me this paper, or put this paper before me one week ago, I 



175 



would have signed it at once ; as it is I will give you an answer 
to-morrow ;" I went over to the Christian at Work, and saw 
Mr. Hawley, and I said, "Mr. Hawley is there anything the 
matter — is everything all straight?" and he said it was ; then 
we went up and looked at the forms that were all ready ; Mr. 
Cobb told me that they were straight, and we looked over the 
forms and everything seemed to be so. 

Q. Have you stated all that was said in the conversation be- 
tween you and Dr. Talmage at [the Astor House — do you 
remember of talking about anything else than what you have 
stated? A. That is all I recollect at this moment; yes, he 
did; he said he had had a much larger offer of a salary from 
other papers, but then he had said that before ; he wrote Mr. 
.Remington, from Montreal, that he had an offer of $5,000, but 
he did not give the slightest hint that he thought of accepting 
it. 

Q. Did he mention the names of any of those papers ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. When did you discover, and how did you discover that 
; the negotiations were ended between you and Dr. Talmage ? 
A. That was the next morning ; I think it was Mr. Hawley 
who came around to my office and said that Dr. Talmage had 
left the paper, and put in a valedictory ; that the presses were 
i at work running all night on the edition, and wanted to know 
if he should stop the presses, or wanted to know what to do 
about it ; I told him I would go right over with him, and I 
took his arm, and went right over at once, and saw Mr. Brady 
in the mailing room (Mr. Brady had mailed for me before), and 
I asked him if any of the copies had gone out, and he said no ; 
and I told him to stop the whole edition, and they did stop it. 

Q. That was the first you heard of it ? A. That was the 
first I heard of it. 

Q. Did you receive any notice from Dr. Talmage at all ? A. 
Yes, on that clay ; I don't know how late ; I think I was over 
with Mr. Hawley the greater part of the forenoon ; afterwards 
I received a line from Dr. Talmage ; I think my bookkeeper- 
handed it to me ; it was sent over by a private messenger of 
Dr. Talmage'; I think I got it about two o'clock. 

Q. Is that the letter (handing witness lettter) ? A. Yes, 
sir. 



176 



(Mr. Crosby reads letter marked Exhibit No. 7, April 2d, 
1879.) 

Dear Mr. Hallock : 

I have considered the offer you have made me of the editorial 
chair of the Christian at Work, in case you purchase it, and 
have concluded that it is my duty to decline it, and so I accept 
another position. 

Yours, etc., 

Oct. 9th, 1876. T. DE WITT TALMAGE. 

Q. Didn't he know that you had purchased the paper ? A. 
Yes, sir ; I told him 1 had purchased the paper the day be- 
fore ; he knew it and acted upon it, and went to the office of 
the Christian at Work and put in that valedictory, when he 
knew that I had bought the paper, and that I had bought it 
upon the sole understanding that he was to remain the editor. 

Q. Did you have an interview with Dr. Talmage in regard 
to the subject of the letter ? A. Yes, sir ; I was going to give 
him a piece of my mind, but I did not say very much ; I had 
too much to say. 

Q. What passed between you at that interview? I do not 
recollect all the language that was used; I know that Dr. Tal- 
mage did not attempt to justify himself at all, so far as I was 
concerned. 

Q. Did he give you any message to Mr. Remington? A. 
No, sir ; he gave me no message for anybody. 

Q. Did you make him any offer at that interview ? A. No, 
sir ; I did not make him any offer ; I may have said that I 
would rather pay $5,000 than to have such a thing as that hap- 
pen ; but I did not make him any offer ; he had already pub- 
lished his valedictory over his own signature, declaring that he 
had ceased his connection with the Christian at Work. 

Q. Have you carried on the paper ever since ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You are still the publisher and owner ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Has Dr. Talmage ever visited you or had any interviews 
with you since that time in reference to it ? A. Yes, sir ; 
about a year afterwards, on the 24th or 25th day of August ; I 
think it was the 25th day of August, 1877, I received a letter 
in the office of the Christian at Work, from Dr. Talmage, asking 
me to meet him again. 



177 



Q. (Handing witness the letter). Is that the letter? A. Yes, 
sir. 

(Mr. Crosby reads letter marked Exhibit No. 8, April 2d, 
1879.) 

Mr. Hallock : 

Dear Sir — Could I see you in Astor House parlors on matter 
of business at 12, 1, or 2 o'clock to-day? If so, which? 

Yours, etc., 

Friday. T. De WITT TALMAGE. 

Q. The date is in a different handwriting, is it not ? A. Yes, 
sir ; the date, August 24th, is in my handwriting. 

Q. Was it made at the time ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Are you sure it is correct ? A. Yes, sir ; it is correct. 

The Witness— That letter I received August 24th, 1877. 

Q. Did you meet Mr, Talmage at the Astor House ? A. I 
did. 

Q. State what passed between you ? A. There was not 
much that passed between us ; Dr. Talmage said : " Do you 
want to sell the Christian at Work ? " and I told him no ; that 
is all that passed between us ; afterwards he called at my 
house within a week after that, on the last day of the month, 
August 31st ; he called in the evening and said : " Mr. Hal- 
lock, I want to come back as editor of the Christian at Work ;" 
I invited him into the parlor, and he sat down ; we shut the 
doors between the two rooms ; there were several persons in 
the other room ; he said : " We will make it whiz ; " I recollect 
that ; he repeated his desire to connect himself with the 
Christian at Work as the editor, and with myself as publisher ; 
he stayed some time, and we talked the matter over ; the next 
morning I received a letter from him ; his son came to our 
house with it. 

Q. (Handing witness letter.) Is that the letter ? A. That is 
the letter ; it was received Saturday, September 1st. 

(Mr. Crosby reads the letter, Exhibit No. 9, April 2d, 1879.) 
1 South Oxford Street, 
Friday. 

Dear Mr. Hallock, — If convenient, I would like to have you 
call at my house about 8 o'clock this evening, so that we may 
23 



178 



conclude the conversation opened last Friday. I have also 
something additional to say. Please answer. 

Yours, &c, 

T. De WITT TALMAGE. 

I would calJ to see you, but am keeping bachelor's hall in 
the absence of my familv, and must be around the premises. 

Q. He uses the words here, " last Friday ?" A. Yes, sir, I 
noticed those words particularly, and I spoke to my wife about 
it ; he said " last Friday," and Friday was the day before ; the 
letter was received on Saturday morning, September 1st, and 
was sent around to me by Dr. Talmage;' s son ; I told his son 
that I would drop in as I came back from work ; I did call at 
Dr. Talmage's house ; he received me cordially ; he said : 
" Mr. Hallock, I know you are a business man, and business 
men do not want to waste much time ; I want to say this, that 
I will serve you the first year for nothing if I come back, and 
I will put it into writing, so that you can hold me ;" then he 
said also, " The second year the salary shall be merely nom- 
inal ; " the word " hold " was used, or that was the idea ; that 
it should be put in writing so that I could hold him, and it 
made an impression on my mind at the time. 

Q. Did you accede to that proposition ? A. No, sir. 

Q. What did you say in answer to that proposition? A. I 
recollect that at the first time — the evening before when he 
called at my house — I spoke to Dr. Talmage and said that our 
statements were utterly conflicting, because he had said that 
my statement was false in part and false in whole over his own 
signature, and it had gone the rounds of the press, and I told 
him that our statements were utterly contradictory. 

Mr. Millard— What statements did you refer to? A. I 
made a statement in the Christian at Work, in regard to Dr. 
Talmage leaving the paper, which Dr. Talmage, in a statement 
that he published, said was false in part and false in whole ; 
he published that over his own signature ; it was printed in 
the Eagle, in the Advance, and went the whole rounds of the 
press, and he has never contradicted it to my knowledge, cer- 
tainly not publicly, and he never has denied it, neither dare 

he deny it now ; he said, " Oh, well " I do not know that 

I can give his words, but the idea was, or the substance of 



179 



what he said was, that it would soon be forgotten or soon blow 
over ; he said it was newspaper talk, and that it would soon 
blow over ; that was the idea ; that was the substance of what 
he said. 

Q. Who was the editor of the Christian at Work at that time ? 
A. I had the same editor, Dr. Taylor. 

Q. Was anything said by Dr. Talmage about him ? A. Dr. 
Talmage asked me how long he was employed for, and I told 
him that it was on the basis of a three months' notice ; that I 
could give him three months' notice at any time; he said he 
did not know but that it might be for a year, and he said I 
could pay him three .months' salary, whetlier he remained as 
editor or not. 

Q. Are you sure he said that to you ? A. I am certain of it. 

Q. (Handing witness paper.) What is that paper? A. That 
is a statement that I cut out of a copy of the Advance that I 
received. 

Q. When did you cut it from the Advance? A. I received 
it and cut it out at the time, October 20th. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage the editor of the Advance ? A. Yes ; 
it carried his name as editor-in-chief at the time. 

Mr. Crosby — I offer in evidence .this statement by B. R. 
Corwin ; it "is entitled, Christian at Work statement by Mr. 
Corwin, endorsed by Dr. Talmage, Brooklyn, October 20th, 
(marked Exhibit No. 10, April 2d, 1879. 

Mr. J. N. Hallock, publisher and proprietor of the Christian 
at Work has published a statement of what he says transpired 
at my house on the evening of March 6th last, under the title 
of " A Unique Suggestion — A Plan that Didn't Work and 
That Stolen List." He did call without my invitation or ex- 
pectation. It was our only interview, and lasted about half an 
hour. There was no remark made during that time that could 
be construed into Mr. Hallock's statement. There was no at- 
tempt at privacy. Mr. E. Remington, the former proprietor 
of the Christian at Work, had notified the editor, publisher 
and secretary in January, that he was financially unable to 
carry on the paper. This was known generally in the office. 

It was the cause of anxiety to all, especially to Dr. Talmage 
and myself, how the subscribers should be reimbursed for un- 



180 



expired subscriptions. Mr. Remington was asked what plan 
should be pursued. He replied, "I have none." At last Mr. 
Remington agreed to carry the paper through the month of 
February only. In the mean time every effort was made to 
sell or consolidate the Ghistian at Work. It could not be done, 
and the first of March found us in the same uncertain state, 
expecting every issue to be the last. 

This was the condition of things March 6th, when Mr. Hal- 
lock called. Mr. H. was asked, if he could, in the event of a 
stoppage, publish a paper and fill out the unexpired time, 
trusting to the future renewal of subscriptions for his re- 
muneration. He replied that he could. There was no 
proposition made to him ; no urging or effort to influ- 
ence him. A question was asked, what could be done 
in an emergency, and that is what Mr. H. terms a unique 
suggestion. To get out a paper called the Christian at 
Work was nothing new ; but it was proposed repeatedly, 
months before, in the Christian at Work office to drop the 
word " at." This was before Mr. Remington proposed to 
drop everything. If that was done, some paper must be 
sent to the subscribers. That is what Mr. H. calls ''a plan 
that didn't work" at that time, March 6th, I was pub- 
lisher and treasurer of the Christian at Work publishing 
Company. Three copies of the mail list were printed ; one for 
the mailer, one for the office, and one to be sent to the publish- 
er's house for safety in case of fire at the office. It was sent 
every week by the printer's boy and placed in my desk, and 
never shown to Mr. Hallock nor any other person. I being 
treasurer and publisher, and having the subscription list sent 
to my house for protection, as did the former publisher, is 
what Mr. Hallock's statement called "that stolen list." Mr. 
Talmage never uttered the words in my presence, " not five 
hundred subscribers will remain with Remington," as Mr. 
Hallock asserts. Mr. Hallock's statement, " I intimated the 
law would not allow us to take such a course even if the gos- 
pel would," is absolutely false. His statement, " I iuformod 
them that I could not conscientiously carry out that pro- 
gramme," is absolutely false. All my connections with the 
Christian at Work ceased March 31st. 

(Signed) . B. R. COR WIN. 



181 



1 have read the above statement by Mr. Corwin, and find it 
true in every point. I might particularize at length in regard 
to Mr. Hallock's statement, which is false in part and false in 
all. 

T. De WITT TALMAGE. 

Dated Brooklyn, October 20. 

Q. What statement is referred to in this letter ? A. The 
first statement that I made in the first issue of the Christian at 
Work, dated October 19th, 1876, stating and explaining the facts 
in regards to Mr. Talmage's withdrawal, I made a plain state- 
ment of the facts exactly, as near as I could ; it was made 
within an hour of Dr. Talmage's celebrated utterance in 
the Tabernacle that the Christian at Work had been surrep- 
tiously sold to a publisher of a Unitarian paper, giving the 
idea that it was going to lend its influence to Unitarians ; the 
statement referred to, was made within an hour after the 
conclusion of the services; my nephew was there and he came 
and reported it to me ; I recollect the expression in it that the 
purchaser had an idea that he, Dr. Talmage, was going with 
it, but that they found difficulty in delivering goods or some- 
thing to that effect - T when my nephew came home and reported 
that to me, I said to him " take a pen, Ed., and sit down and 
I will give the facts just as they are ;" we went in the back 
parlor, and within an hour I had dictated what the facts were 
and I put them in type at once, and published them in the 
Christian at Work ; it is a statement of the facts as nearly as 
I could make it, and as I believed them to be true at the time ; 
since that time, although the statement of Dr. Talmage has 
gone the round of the press as I have stated, he has not lifted 
his finger to relieve me of the imputation he placed upon me , 
and he has made no public denial, and he dare not, I am sure. 

Q. What are these " little unique suggestions ; " "A plan 
that did'nt work," "stolen list?" A. They are headings to 
the editorials. 

Q. The statement of Mr. Corwin Seems to refer only to one 
part of your statement, that of the evening at his house ; 
have you given us to-day, under oath, the substance of the 
statement that is referred to when Dr. Talmage says, "I might 
particularize in regard to Mr. Hallock's statement ; it is false 



182 



in part and false in all ; " have you given us the substance of 
that statement? A. I think that very statement is there; I 
am certain that this is the statement that Dr. Talmage says is 
" false in part and false in all," 

Mr. Crosby. — I should like to ask this witness a question in 
regard to the second specification ; he is able to testify about 
it ; are you in the habit of attending the Tabernacle ? A. I 
go there sometimes. 

Q. Have you been there lately ? A. Yes, sir, I went there 
along about the first of February. 

Q. Did you hear anything of particular interest on that day ? 
A. I did. ' 

Q. What was the subject? A. I heard a certain telegram 
read, and I heard Mr. Talmage make the remark about what 
the papers said. 

Q. Give us, as near as you can, from memory, what you 
heard on that Sunday? A. I do not know that I can giye it 
exactly, but it was substantially, " ail the papers state that I 
am to be tried for " — the idea was that he was to be tried for 
his theological opinion ; I don't know that I can give the 
words ; he was to be tried for his theology, «and then he added, 
" what all the papers state must be true ;" I recollect those 
words ; he also stated that next Sunday he would preach a 
sermon on orthodoxy and heterodoxy, in which he would de- 
fine his position clearly ; that" was the idea ; he also read a 
telegram, and I recollect he made the remark, " any one," or 
" any man, who can twist anything crooked out of that tele- 
gram, is either a knave or a fool — 42d hymn ;" something like 
that ; I don't know that I have given the right number of the 
hymn, but that is the idea. 
Cross-examined by Mr. Millard : 

Q. You spoke of an offer that Dr. Talmage made when you 
first began your negotiations about the purchase of the paper ; 
that if you purchased it he would do the work for one year for 
nothing ; you didn't accept that offer, did you ? A. Certain- 
ly ; 1 was trying to purchase it all the time ; he certainly 
didn't expect me to buy that paper, and give $20,000 for it, 
without his being editor ; he knew that all the time, perfectly 
well ; it had been the subject of our conversations from the 
beginning. 



183 



Q. Did you understand him to make that offer to you with- 
out any limitation of time? A. Certainly, I understood that 
he made that offer, and that it was to hold good until be noti- 
fied me to the contrary, because it was solely on the condition 
of his remaining editor that I was induced to buy the paper. 

Q. If you had put off buying the paper for ten years, do you 
think his offer would still have held good? A. It was upon 
his engagement with me to remain as editor that I agreed 
to buy the paper ; I did not suppose that my offer to pay him 
12,000 a year instead of nothing, would be considered by him 
as a release of him upon my part ; no such idea ever entered 
my mind. 

Q. But you told him afterwards that you wouldn't hold him 
to that contract ? A. That was the day before all this took 
place ; I told him afterwards, when I presented the paper to 
him, that I had bought the Christian at Work. 

Q. Did he accept the offer that you made him of $2,000 a 
year ? A. No ; but he gave me to understand that he would 
accept it as a matter of course. 

Q. What did he say to you to give you that understanding? 
A. He gave me that understanding as certainly as the hand of 
a clock 

Q. State what he said or did that gave you the idea that he 
accepted the offer? A. Well, he seemed very much pleased, 
and invited me to continue the conversation. 

Q. In what way did he show you he was very much pleased? 
A. He smiled and seemed very much pleased, and invited me 
to continue the conversation. 

I i Q. Because he smiled you understood that he accepted the of- 
fer ? A. Yes ; certainly I did ; no, not simply because he smiled ; 
I considered that he accepted the offer because he certainly 
did not refuse it, and said nothing that led me to believe that 
he would not accept it; and besides, that he had not withdrawn 
his previous offer to work for me for a year for nothing if I 
would buy the paper. 

Q. But }^ou told him you would not hold him to the con- 
tract, didn't you? A. I did, but I had not in my mind the 
slightest idea that it implied to him any sort of notion that it 
was to be taken as a release of the contract upon his part ; I 



184 



said to him, " I will not hold you to your contract to work for 
a year for me for nothing, but I will give you $2,000 ;" I 
thought that $2,000 a year would be better than nothing. 

Q. Did he accept it ? A. I made answer to that question 
before. 

Q. What was your answer ? A. That he gave me every rea- 
son to suppose that he would accept it. 

Q. What did he do or say that gave you a reason to suppose 
that ? A. I felt morally certain that he did accept it. 

Q. How did he give you reason to suppose that he had ac- 
cepted it V A, By not refusing to take $2,000 a year ; he made 
no objection to it at that time, and said nothing that would 
indicate that he had any intention of declining it. 

Q. The reason why you considered he gave you reason to 
suppose that he accepted that offer was because he did not 
absolutely decline it ? A. That is one reason ; he did not de- 
cline it, or give the slightest hint that he intended to do so. 

Q. That is the only reason, is it? A. No; I think the rea- 
son I have stated is quite sufficient ; he made no objection to 
me in regard to it, and said nothing then that showed any in- 
tention on his part not to accept it. 

Q. You had released him from the contract, had you not ? 
A. I released him in that way, if that is what you choose to 
call release. 

Q. But wasn't it a release ? A. I did release him in that 
way. 

Q. Did you consider that a release ? A. I don't consider 

that a release. 

Q. Did you offer to release him or not ? A. I offered to 
release him from his first offer and to give him $2,000 a 
year. 

Q. Did yon release him from his first offer or not ? A. I 
am willing to leave that to other people ; I can't answer. 

Q. Do you decline to answer ? A. I don't consider that I 
released him in any moral or equitable sense ; it might be by 
some persons considered a technical release ; I am not lawyer 
enough to know. 

Q. You didn't mean to be taken at your word? A. I didn't 
consider him released from going on with the editorship of 



185 



the Christian at Work ; he knew perfectly well that it was 
solely upon that consideration that I consented to buy the 
paper and spend my money upon it ; no, sir ; I do not consider 
that he was released from the obligation of his contract with 
me. 

Q. Do you mean to say that if at that time he had a better 
offer he would not have been at liberty to accept it ? A. He 
might have told me of it. 

Q. Was he bound to tell you all his business ? A. He was 
morally bound to tell me if he had an offer and intended to 
accept it, though he need not have told me what it was or 
where it was ; any^honest man would have done it. 

Q. You spoke of an interview that you had at Mr. Corwin's 
house in regard to the " unique suggestion ;" what occurred at 
that time ? A. Dr.Talmage asked me if I could get out an edition 
of the Christian at Work within a week on my own type, so as 
to furnish all the subscribers with a paper, and so that there 
would not be any apparent break ; I told him I thought I 
could. 

Q. What do you mean by "apparent break?" A. I mean 
by apparent break, not being far behind. 

Q. You mean the stopping of the paper ? A. No ; I mean 
no apparent break — not being nine days instead of seven. 

Q. What was it you said about stoppage ? A. Nothing. 

Q. Didn't you use that word ? A. I don't recollect. 

Q. Do you now say that there was nothing said in that con- 
versation about stoppage of the paper ? A. No ; I don't state 
that. 

Q. Was there or not ? A. I don't recollect anything 
about it. 

Q. Did you understand that this plan that you have spoken 
of to alter the name of the paper was solely to palm it off on 
the subscribers as the same paper ? A. It could not be the 
same paper, for the other paper was being published at the 
same time. 

Q. Did you understand the plan to be that by making a 
slight alteration it was to be palmed off as the same paper ? 
A. No, sir ; for the simple reason that the other paper was 
going right on the same as before ; what I understood was, 
24 



186 



that this paper would be edited by Dr. Talmage, and that on 

account of Dr. Tal mage's connection with it, would draw off 
subscribers from the other paper until we had the entire list, 
with the exception of the small number that I have before re- 
ferred to, that according to Mr. Talmage, would remain with 
Mr. Remington. 

Q. You didn't understand that it was a plan to palm off the 
new paper as the same paper ? A. No, sir, it was not the 
understanding ; how could it be the same as the other when 
the other paper was being published at the same time ; two 
things cannot be one thing unless they are married. 

Q. Did you not understerstand at the time that there was 
danger of the other paper stopping ? A. I didn't understand 
there was danger of its stopping suddenly; I kenw that the 
paper was not in a prosperous condition. 

Q. Didn't you understand that this plan that you have 
spoken of was based upon the idea of the other paper stop- 
ping? A. It didn't give that impression to my mind at all ex- 
cept in the way I have stated. 

Q. As to the stolen list; did you use that expression? A. 
I don't know that I did use that expression, but I don't know 
that I would be afraid to. 

Q. Do you say that there was any list that was stolen ? A. 
When we look back over a certain thing it may assume a pro- 
portion and a significance that it did not have at the time ; I 
simply state the fact that when the Advance came out with 
Mr. Talmage's name as its editor it was sent to every one of 
my subscribers with all the mistakes of the list of the Chris- 
tian at Work ; for instance, the Christian at Work had been 
sent to a minister under the name of Miss, and the Advance 
was sent to the same person in the same way and he wrote to 
say that for two years the Christian at Work had come to him 
in that way and that now the Advance was coming m precisely 
the same manner and that it was too much honor altogether ; 
I don't consider that there is much difference between that and 
larceny. 

Q. Do you know how the Advance got their list ? A. I am 
morally certain of it. 

Q. What do you know about it ? A. I know that so far as 



1B7 



my inquiries went among my subscribers, that they all received 
a copy of the Advance. 

Q. Do you know how the Advance got that list? A. Iam 
pretty well satisfied. 

Q. Do you know ? A. I am pretty well satisfied. 

Q. That is not what I ask ? A. I am satisfied. 

Q. Do you know or not? A. I am morally certain that I 
do. 

Q. Do you know? A, I know it as I know everything else. 

Q. Do you know it in a way that you are willing to swear 
to ? A. I know it in the same way that I know there is a 
place called Constantinople. 

Q. Do you know it, is my question ? A. Yes, sir, I feel cer- 
tain that I know it. 

Q. You know it in no other way than you know that there 
is a place somewhere that you have not seen? A. In the 
sense that you use the word I don't know that I do know it 
technically, but I feel certain of it ; I feel satisfied of it. 

Q. Do you know where the Advance got that list, in a way 
that you know anything positively ? A . I believe that Web- 
ster says " know " is to be cognizant of ; to feel certain of ; in 
that sense I know. 

Q. Do you know it, is my question ? A. In that sense I 
know it ; I feel certain of it. 

Q. Tell us how you know it? A. I don't know that I care 
to tell any further than I have ; I am not obliged to. 

Q. Did you know that Dr. Talmage had anything to do with 
it ? A. I think so. 

Q. Do you know that he had ? A. In the sense that you 
use the word perhaps not, but in the sense that I have just 
used it, as defined by Webster, I do ; I feel certain of it. 

Q. You are willing to swear that you don't know that Dr. 
Talmage had nothing to do with it ? A. No, I am not. 

A. Are you willing to swear that you do know that he had 
anything to do with it ? A. According to the definition of 
Webster that I have just given, I am willing to swear to it. 

Q. What is that definition ? A. I feel morally certain of it. 

Q. Is that the definition that Webster gives of knowing ? A. 
Webster says "to know" is to be cognizant of, to be assured 
of ; I feel assured of it in my own mind. 



188 



Q. You koow very well what I mean? A. And you know 
what I mean too ; that is just the trouble ; we know what each 
other means too well. 

Q. Tell me how you know it ? A. I don't know that I am 
obliged to tell any more than I have ; I think I have given 
quite reasons enough for my knowledge to anyone who de- 
sired to be convinced ; I will state again, if you have not un- 
derstood it, that the Advance, after Dr. Talmage was editor-in- 
chief, was sent to every one of my subscribers, so far as I 
could find out, and I made great inquiries, with all the errors 
that were in my list ; for instance, my own name is J. N. Hal- 
lock, and I sometimes got papers addressed to J. M. or J. W., 
and all mistakes of that kind that were in my list also were in 
the list of the Advance ; I recollect that even from France, a 
Frenchman who was one of the editors of a paper there, wrote 
to me saying " Why, the Advance is beginning to come in the 
imperfect French which is in your list ; such things as that in 
France we should call dishonest;" I can produce the letter. 

Q. That only shows that they had got their list in the same 
way that yours was ? A. I should think it does, yes, sir. 

Q. There was no other method in which they could have 
got the list but through Dr. Talmage? A. You can draw your 
own inference. 

Q. I ask you whether that is so? A. Not necessarily, they 
could have got a part of the list from the agents. 

Q. Was there any other party about the office that had the 
whole list? A. I am not obliged to answer that. 

Q. What is your objection to answering it? A. I don't 
know about that. 

Q. You don't know that there were other parties through 
whom a complete list could be obtained ? A. I don't know that. 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage had that list at all ? A. 
You mean personally in his possession — in that sense ? 

Q. Yes? A. No. 

Q. If he hadn't it then he could not furnish it, could he ; do 
you know whether he ever saw that list ? A. I don't know 
that I do ; no, sir. 

Q, If he had never seen it and didn't have it. he couldn't 
furnish it, could he ? A. He could furnish it through others. 



189 



Q. How could he when he didn't have it and had never seen 
it ? A. A man can furnish things through others, though he 
may not have them and has never seen them ; I wrote, the 
other day, for a party, to Boston to order an organ to be ship- 
ped ; I never saw the organ, but I received a letter saying that 
everything was satisfactory ; I had nothing to do with the 
organ, I never saw it, yet I furnished it. 

Q. You mean then that Dr. Talmage could have told some- 
body else to furnish it? A. I rather guess he could. 

Q. Have you got any evidence on that? A. I have got evi- 
dence in the sense that I know that the Advance, as soon as 
Dr. Talmage was made editor, was sent to all of my subscri- 
bers. 

Q. That is the only reason you have ? A. That is not the 
only reason. 

Q. What other reason have you ? A. I have others, I con- 
sider that is enough. 

Q. Have you any other reasons ? A. I think that is a suf- 
ficient reason. 

Q. That the Advance list, and the list of the Christian at, 
Work, were sent simultaneously to the same subscribers? , A. 
Yes; they didn't come before Dr. Talmage was made editor, 
but afterwards ; they were sent to all my subscribers. 

Q. You infer that the list of the Christsan at Work was fur- 
nished to the Advance from that fact? A. Yes ; from that and 
other things. 

Q. If there is anything else, state it? A. That is a part of 
the whole transaction ; sometimes a thing does not seem 
strange at the time if it happens but once, but when it happens 
over and over again, there is likely enough to be something 
in it. 

Q. Do you know any other reason except the simultaneous 
issuing of the lists of the Christian at Work and of the Ad- 
vance ? A. I have another reason in my mind ; it seemed to 
me his way of doing things — not to do them directly. 

Q. You thought it was a trait of his character? A. I did 
afterwards. 

Q. Those are the only two reasons ? A. I don't say that, I 
might think of more, but I am not obliged to do such think- 



190 



ing ; I am not obliged to be a metaphysical dictionary for 
thinking up everything ; I think you are trying to puzzle me. 

Q. Just state again what occurred between yon and Dr- 
Talinage, at the interview of October f), 1876 ; it was some- 
thing in regard to your expected purchase of the paper? A. 
Yes ; I recollect I saw him while I was crossing the City Hall 
Park. 

Q. Just repeat that again? A. I will give you the whole of 
it ; I was going across the City Hall Park ; I had been want- 
ing to see Dr. Talmage, and as I saw him going across the 
park, I went up to him ; it was the day before the purchase of 
the paper, I had not purchased it F yet ; I said to him, " why, 
Dr. Talmage, you are the very man I want to see ;" he turned 
around and made the same remark to me ; I said, " I am about 
to buy the paper now, and I will not hold you to your agree- 
ment to edit it a year for nothing — but I will give you $2,00J 
out of my own pocket, and more if I can afford it, if the paper 
is profitable ;" that was the idea ; he seemed very much 
pleased, and said jump into this stage, or get into this stage, 
which is going up Broadway ; if I had not been engaged, I 
should have got into the stage and gone up with him, but I 
told him I had an engagement and was in a hurry ; he says, 
" well, we will see each other Monday, and talk it over I 
told him that I was going to purchase the paper, and if he was 
going to be editor, why didn't he say so then ; he knew I would 
not purchase the paper or think of doing such a thing unless 
he was going to be the editor ; he knew that was the basis of 
the arrangement throughout. 

Q. Didn't you understand that he was to see you again, and 
was to close the matter up ? A. I thought we should see each 
other on Monday, of course, and that thing would be settled ; 
we had talked over the thing before a good many times. 

Q. He told you he would edit the paper ? A. He said he 
would edit the paper a year for nothing, if I would buy it ; I 
told him I was going to buy it then ; I told him I would not 
hold him to his agreement to work a year for nothing, but I 
would give him $2,000; I certainly thought that $2,000 a year 
would be more acceptable than nothing, although he was 
bound by his contract to work for me for a year for nothing. 



191 



Q. But you say you released him from that first agreement? 
A. You say I released him. 

Q. You said so, didn't you? A. I released him perhaps in 
that sense that you speak of, I said I would not hold him to 
his agreement to work for me for a year for nothing ; why ; be- 
cause I was going to give him $2,000 a year instead of nothing. 

Q. What did you understand when he said, " we will talk 
it over Monday ? " A. I understood when we talked it over 
Monday everything would be settled, and he would sign the 
agreement of $2,000 ; I certainly had not the slightest idea 
that he contemplated anything different from what our under- 
standing had been throughout ; I supposed when he said that 
we were going to meet each other Monday, that we were to 
sign the agreement as I have stated, and that the matter would 
be closed. 

Q. You didn't consider the agreement was made on that day, 
did you? A. I didn't suppose I released him from his 
obligation to serve me as editor of the paper, and to serve me 
a year for nothing, because I voluntarily, and out of my own 
pocket, increased his salary from nothing to $2,000 a year. 

Q. Didn't you state two or three times that you released 
bim from the first agreement? A. You say I released him. 

Q. But didn't you say so too ? A. I should not suppose 
that any honorable person would consider such an offer as that 
a release. 

Q. Didn't you offer to release him ? Q. Not to release him 
from his contract to serve as editor on the paper. 

Q. Didn't you tell him you wouldn't hold him to his agree- 
ment ? A. I didn't mean that I would release him from it. 

Q. What did you mean ? A. I meant just this : " Dr. Tal- 
mage, I am going to buy that paper ; you have agreed to serve 
me a year for nothing as editor, but I will give you $54,000 a 
year ; " I didn't believe it was necessary to hold him. 

Q. What do you mean by the word " release ? " A. That I 
would not oblige him to work for nothing. 

Q. Didn't you say that you would free him from his engage- 
ment? A. That didn't mean in my mind at all, that I would 
free him from his engagement to work for me as editor, nor 
did he in any manner imply that such was his understanding ; 



192 



if it had been he was morally bound to have told me ; what I 
meant was that I would not hold him to his agreement to work 
for nothing. 

Q. But he did not accept the agreement that you offered? 
A. He did not sign it in any way. 

Q. I will read a little from your statement ; you said in this 
letter, " late on the morning," that is of the memorable Mon- 
day, October 9th, " I went to the office of the Christian at 
Work, aud met there the former advertising manager, Mr. E. 
P. Cone," &c. : (reads from statement ot the witness). Now, 
what did Dr. Talmage say to you at the Astor House ? A. 
He said : " If you had shown that paper to me, or put it before 
me one week before I would have signed it at once, as it is, I 
will give you an answer to-morrow." 

Q. TV hat did you say then ? A. I did not say much. 

Q. Did you say anything ? A. I don't recollect just at this 
moment ; I felt a great deal. 

Q. Did you tell Dr. Talmage that he had violated his agree- 
ment ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You considered he had, didn't you ? A. I supposed he 
would sign it ; I didn't know what he had been doing ; I didn't 
know what the matter was ; after I came over to my office I 
thought it was very strange, and that was the first suspicion 
that crossed my mind that things were crooked. 

What time in the day was that ? A. It was about noon, 
I should think ; it was the ( .ith of October, 1876. 

Q. You say, " That is the only offer of compensation that I 
made him ; I think he mentioned that he had other offers," 
&c? A. That is correct. 

Q. Did he mention the other offers to you ? A. That is his 
way of talking ; he wrote that to Mr. Eemington from Mon- 
treal he said he had been offered 85,000 salary ; he had said 
that before ; but, if he was offered $5,000, I should think he 
would have taken it rather than stay at $1,500 ; I should have 
done so. 

Q. Did he mention the offers that he had ? A. I gave that 
no weight then ; he had done so before. 

Q. How do you reconcile^that with the theory that he was 
already under obligations to you ? A. I don't try to recon- 
cile it. 



193 



Q. Did you tell him that was your understanding ? A. I 
didn't tell him that. 

Q. You considered that he was under a contract to serve 
you ? A. I considered he was morally bound to serve me. 

Q. You considered that that contract was still binding ? A. 
Morally binding in the strongest way. 

Q. Didn't he state that to you in a way that gave you to 
understand that he had some other arrangement on hand ? A. 
No, sir ; not the slightest ; he knew all along that I bought 
the paper only because he was to be associated with me as 
editor of the paper. 

Q. I read from your statement : " The result is known ; at six 
o'clock that afternoon Dr. Taimage returned, and had an edi- 
torial put in, and, at the same time, an advertisement was 
taken out, and his own announcement was put in," do you 
know that ? A. No ; I don't know that in any other way than 
I have spoken of ; I don't know it in the way you spoke of 
first, I am morally certain of it. 

Q. What inquiry did you make about how that advertise- 
ment came to be in there ? A. I recollect about that ; I didn't 
trouble myself so much about the fact as to how it came there, 
as I did about its being there at all ; my recollection is, that I 
was told that it was put in by Dr. Taimage ; I knew by the 
looks of it ; it was over his own signature ; Mr. Dodge told 
me so. 

Q. Was the advertisement over his own signature ? A The 
advertisement was not over his own signature. 

Q. You charge as follows : " At the same time an advertise- 
ment was taken out, and his own announcement put in ; the 
press then being started, according to Dr. Talmage's secret in- 
structions given to the pressman to run all night ? " A. That 
is correct. 

Q. Didn't you charge that Dr. Taimage put that advertise- 
ment in ? A. No ; I didn't charge anything of the kind, and 
if you will read it over again you will see that I did not ; you 
might have known it the first time. 

Q. You don't mean to intimate here in this kind letter that 
Dr. Taimage had anything to do with it ? A. I don't intimate 
25 



194 



it, simply state the facts as I know them to be ; I don't say 
that, whatever I might have thought. 

Q. Have you sworn that Dr. Talmage told any falsehood in 
connection with his withdrawal from the paper ? A. I am 
willing to swear it. 

Q. What falsehoods did he tell? A. He told a falsehood 
when he made the statement of October 15th. 

Q. "What was that ? A. From my recollection it is this : I 
may not give the exact language, but I can give the exact sub- 
stance ; you must excuse me if I do not give the exact words ; 
it was in my mind at the time I made my statement ; it was to 
this effect : That the Christian at Work had been surreptitiously 
sold without his knowledge to the publishers of a Unitarian 
paper, giving the idea as I thought, that it wati going to lend 
its influence to the Unitarians, than which nothing was further 
from the truth, as he well knew, from all our conversations ; he 
also stated that it was sold to the publishers of a Unitarian 
paper, with the impression on the part of the purchaser that he 
would go with it ; that was right ; I had that impression ; he 
told me that he would ; but he went on to say that they had 
trouble in delivering the goods, or something like that, and he 
said that after this surreptitious sale he considered his rela- 
tions with the paper forever at an end. 

Q. What part of that statement was false '? A. It was not 
a surreptitious sale, and it was not a sale to a Unitarian pub- 
lisher as he gave the impression. 

Q. Do you mean that is just what he said ; are you stating 
from your recollection the exact words that he said, which 
you say were false ? A. That statement was false that I have 
just given. 

Q. What one ? A. That the Christian at Work was sold 
surreptitiously. 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage knew of the sale ? k. I 
told him I was just going to buy it. 

Q. That was the day before ? A. But I told him on the clay 
I bought it, Monday. 

.Q. You had told him for how long that the purchase was 
going on? A. I told him for more than a year; we had many 
conversations about it. 



195 



Q. When was it that you and Mr. Remington finally came 
to terms about the sale ? A. We came to terms finally ; I told 
Dr. Talmage I was just about buying the paper, that was on 
October 6th, 1876 ; I came to terms with Mr. Remington on 
Saturday, late in the afternoon, and the paper was drawn up 
and signed at that time. 

Q. If he believed what you told him, he knew that you were 
about to buy the paper ? A. Of course he did, and he be- 
lieved it too ; he had no reason to do otherwise. 

Q. The falsehood then, that you speak of was this state- 
ment, that the paper had been surreptitiously sold ? . A. Let 
me think what he did say ; I think the whole of the statement 
Ihave given you with the exception that it was sold with the 
impression on the part of the purchaser that he would go with 
it, was false ; that part of it was correct ; I don't remember 
the exact words that he used ; I believe the exact words are 
here in evidence, and I think I ought to be allowed to refresh 
my memory from the document ; I think I ought to have a 
chance to do that. 

Q. Give your best recollection ? A. If you are going to 
make me recollect what he said, I shall take my time ; if you 
aie going to make me recollect it, and insist upon it in this 
way, I shall stay here for an hour. 

Q. Give us the best of your recollection? A. Then the 
Presbytery had about as well adjourn, for I shall take my own 
time ; it will take me half an hour or more to recollect what 
he said, and I don't propose to be hurried. 

Pending the examination of Mr. Hallock, Presbytery ad- 
journed. 

J. MILTON GREENE, 

Stated Cleric. 

April 3d, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 3d, at 3 P. M. 

The examination of Mr. J. N. Hallock was resumed, as 
follows : 

By Mr. Millard : 

Q. Have you stated on this trial that Dr. Talmage has made 
any falsehoods ? A. I have stated that I was ready to do so. 



196 



Q. Have you sworn to that ? A. Not to my knowledge. 
Q. Didn't you state yesterday that you had sworn to it ? A. 
I think not. 

Q. You have not sworn on this trial, then, so far, that Dr. 
Talmage has told any falsehoods in regard to his withdrawal 
from the Christian at Work ? A. I replied precisely as the 
counsel here said ; you asked me if I had sworn ; I said no, 
but I was willing to ; that is what I said yesterday, and I re- 
peat that to-day. 

Q. Did you swear yesterday that Dr. Talmage told a false- 
hood when he stated in his pulpit that the reason for his with- 
drawing from the Christian at Work was because he found it 
had been surreptitiously sold ; did you state so yesterday ? 
A. I will to-day, if you wish. 

Q. (Repeated.) A. I don't recollect it ; I may have done 
so ; I will clo so to-day, if you choose. 

Q. Go on ? A. You ask me to 

Q. (Interrupting.) Go on, and state that, if you are going to 
state it ? A. I have the privilege of going on with my last 
question ; you asked me to recollect that, and now you don't 
give me a chance to recollect, and I have not refreshed my 
memory enough to do so since that ; but I have the privilege 
of recollecting it right along to-day, and I think I can do it 
to-day. 

Q. I ask you what that statement was that you call a false- 
hood ? A. It was a statement, sir, that Dr. Talmage made 
openly in the Tabernacle upon the 15th day of October, 1876, 
in words or in substance as follows : First, it commenced with 
an advertisement in the Advance, the same as his editorial, in 
this way in substance : " My editorial" (pausing), I will get it 
in a moment, sir ; "I have withdrawn my editorial services 
from the Christian at Work, and transferred them to the Ad- 
vance ;" that is the substance ; then he goes on to state, this 
change was not sudden;" there, sir, I consider that one false- 
hood ; if it was not sudden, I don't know the meaning of the 
word sudden ; it was not known to any of the employees in 
the office ; it was done at night ; it was done so suddenly. 

Q. That was the falsehood ? A. That was one ; I will go on 
with the statement; he says the change was not — "my 



197 



change was not " — " this change was not sudden ; last Mon- 
day I learned " — it seems he learned then. 

Q. Don't argue the question '? A. I don't argue the ques- 
tion, but I will state this much ; he says he learned — he 
stated to me the next — it is in evidence already — " if you 
don't publish (or purchase) The Christian at Work," or "if 
you don't " — something to that effect ; it seems he knew it 
already, from my statement, and so owns it here. 

Q. Just state the facts without arguing it? A. I am going 
right on ; this is the second ; this is a case of deception, I take 
it; he says: "I learned upon Monday" — lie owns up 
here — " I have changed my newspaper relations, and in- 
stead of being editor of The Christian at Work will hereafter 
be editor of The Advance ; " that is the advertisement I 
referred to on Sunday in meeting; "this is no sudden 
change" — that, sir, is a falsehood, or I don't know the 
meaning of the word falsehood ; " my final resignation was 
made October 6th, when I wrote that I would cease relations 
with The Christian at Work one month from that da}^ ; but last 
Monday I found that The Christian at Work had been surrep- 
titiously sold " — that, sir, is another falsehood, "and with- 
out my knowledge " — that, sir, is another falsehood, for I 
had told him myself — " sold to the publisher of a Unitarian 
paper " — that is also a falsehood, for I was not the pub- 
lisher of a Unitarian paper at that time ; I don't know whether 
Dr. Talmage knew it or not, but the design in this was to give 
the impression that I was going to take the paper over to the 
Unitarians, and was the very worst falsehood of all ; I want it 
put top of the heap; "sold to the. publisher of a Unitarian 
paper ; " it was not ; " with the impression on the part of the 
purchaser that he would do it ; " that was true ; that was not 
an impression, but a promise and agreement, and I so under- 
stood it ; I meant to put that stronger ; that is right ; " after 
that surreptitious act" — that is another falsehood; there 
are six falsehoods, sir. 

Q. Let me ask you now, Mr. Hallock, how long was it before 
the Friday that you spoke of, October 6th, that you had seen 
Dr. Talmage ? A. I don't recollect, sir ; I saw him on the 
Friday before, and that is enough. 



198 



Q. How long had it been before? A. I cannot tell. 

Q. Can you tell any t lung about it ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Had you seen him within a month? A. No, sir; I can- 
not tell without looking it up ; I think I can get the facts after- 
wards. 

Q. Just relate now, Mr. Hallock, the conversation that took 
place between you and Dr. Talmage on that Friday ? A. I 
will with pleasure ; on that Friday, viz., October 6th, 1876. I 
saw Dr. Talmage in the City Hall Park; I went to him and 
said : " Dr, Talmage, you are the very man I want to see ; " he 
made a similar reply to me ; I informed him that I was just 
about to purchase The Christian at Work, and I laughingly 
remarked to him, " I will not hold you to your promise 
Doctor, to serve the paper a year for nothing ; but I will give 
you two thousand dollars out of my own pocket and more if 
the profits should warrant;" the Doctor seemed very much 
pleased, and invited me to get into a stage and continue the 
conversation with him. 

Q. That is ail? A. That is the whole of it that I recollect 
now ? 

Q. Did you tell him when you were going to purchase ? A. 
I told him I was just about to purchase ; that w T as the idea ; I 
did not know when I should purchase. 

Q. How long had you been in treaty with Dr. Talmage in 
regard to that matter ; how long had you been having inter- 
views in which you were talking about purchasing the paper? 
A. The purchase of the paper, you mean ? 

Q. When, for instance, was the first interview between you 
and Dr. Talmage, when you began to intimate that you would 
purchase the paper ? A. Some time in March, 1876. 

Q. Had you had a good many interviews between that time 
and this Friday on the same subject ? A. A number on the 
same subject. 

Q. And you had all the while been saying you were going 
to purchase the paper? A. That was the understanding, sir. 

Q. And on that Friday you said the game thing, that you 
were going to purchase the paper ? A. No, sir, I did not say 
the same thing ; I said I was just about to purchase ; I had 
got it down to a fine point. 



199 



Q. And you offered him then, two thousand dollars if he 
would become your editor? A. No; not if he would become 
the editor ; be bad told me he would become the editor, and he 
was morally bound to become the editor ; I did not release 
him from that promise at alb 

Q. You to'd him if he would become editor you would give 
him two thousand dollars ; what did he say then ? A. 1 didn't 
say that ; I said this ; said I, " Dr. Talmage, I will not hold you 
to your promise of serving the paper a year for nothing ; I will 
give you something for it." 

Q. What did he say to that? A. Why, he seemed pleased. 

Q. What did he say ? A. Why, he said, " get into the stage 
and we will continue the conversation," or words to that effect- 

Q. Did he say more about seeing you another day ? A. 
Yes, sir; he said, "on Monday we will meet and talk the thing 
all over." 

Q. Did you understand he was going to hold the thing in 
contemplation until Monday ? A. It was this ; I should have 
got into the stage with him, but I had an engagement, and 
said, " Doctor, I am in a great hurry, and can't now ; " " well," 
he says, " we will meet and talk the thing over on Monday. " 

Q. What did you understand you were going to talk over ? 
A. I should have told him the same thing, that I was going to 
purchase the paper, and if not, I would have told him I had 
failed ; I should have told him the exact truth, as I have told 
you all the truth. 

Q. No doubt of that. A. I am glad to hear you say so. 

Q. You say you had told him all along, that you were going 
to buy the paper, or thought of it, and now you told him you 
were about to buy it ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you think he understood you on that point of buy- 
ing if ? A. Of course I do. 

Q. Will you tell me then, when he came to you on Monday, 
and you put that paper before him, and told him you had 
bought the paper, as you swore yesterday, why did he seem 
surprised at it? A. I did not say he seemed surprised; he 
hesitated, and did not sign it ; I was the one surprised. 

Q. Didn't you say yesterday that he seemed surprised ? A. 
No, sir ; well, if I did I will recall it ; it was no surprise on his 



200 



part ; I told him before that I should give him two thousand 

dollars. 

Q. Now, I think I am mistaken myself ? A. I think you 

are, sir. 

Q. Now, I will ask you another question ; how far had you 
got in the negotiations — I will change the form of it ; how often 
had you been talking with Remington on that previous week, 
in regard to this matter? A. I don't know; I can't recollect 
now those negotiations. 

Q. You had seen him several times ? A. I don't know as I 
had ; I don't know but I saw him every day ; I can't tell. 

Q. When had you seen him last ; can you tell that ? A. I 
cannot at the moment ; the negotiations were going right along 
as fast as they could. 

Q. You had seen him some time within the week ? A. I 
don't know that I had. 

Q. You stated you had made up your mind to buy the 
paper ? A. I had got him down to where I thought was about 
a proper mark to buy the paper. 

Q. Now tell us anything about how long that last series of 
negotiations —bow many days that covered? A. How many 
days ; I don't know anything about the days ; it was getting on 
along from March to April, May, June, July, August, Septem- 
ber and October, and October I bought it. 

Q. You say you told him on that Monday that you had 
bought the paper ? A. I did. 

Q. Did the paper you showed him, which you wanted him 
to sign, state that you bought it? A. Stated it, and I was 
going to have him sign the paper and give him two thousand 
dollars 

Q. (Interrupting.) Just state, did the paper contain it ? A. 
It does not. 

Q. It states you intended to ? A. It does not state the in- 
tention at all ; it states that I gave him two thousand dollars. 

Q. Doesn't it state you intended to pay off the indebted- 
ness ? A. That is a different thing ; I had bought the paper 
already, and stated that I intended to pay of the indebted- 
ness. 

Q. Does it say that much ? A. I think it does. 



201 



Q. Does it state you bought it ? A. It was not intended to 
state any such thing as that ; the paper is in evidence. 

Q. You say then the paper does not state you bought it ? 
A. I don't suppose it does. 

Q. But you stated to him verbally that you had bought it ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Explain bow it was that in a note he wrote you on that 
same day, which is here in evidence, he says that in case you 

purchased it A. (Interrupting,) Ah ! Haven't I been 

trying to explain it all along, and you stop me ; that is the 
very thing ; I think he did it because he knew I had bought 
it ; he says so in the Tabernacle ; he says in that statement " I 
learned on Monday ;" who did he learn from — I told him ; he 
went right off and acted on it, and put in his valedictory the 
next day. 

Q. He could have learned it from other parties? A. He 
learned it from me ; I told him ; yes, he might have learned it 
from somebody else. 

Q. And so you told him you bought it on that day ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. You think after you told him, he wrote you a letter 
within a few hours ? A. And I got it the next day ; it was 
dated the day before I got it. 

Q. It was within twenty-four hours of the time you say you 
told him you had bought it ? A. If it was the next day it was 
within twenty-four hours. 

Q. You stated yesterday you w 7 ould not have bought that 
paper if you had not expected that Dr. Talmage would have 
remained as editor ? A. Certainly not ; I would not have 
thought of the thing. 

Q. How was it that instead of waiting until you had him 
sign some paper, you went the next day and bought it ? A. 
Went what, the next day ? 

Q. On Friday you say you saw him ? A. And told him I 
was just about to buy the paper. 

Q. And he said, come on Monday, and we will talk about it ? 
A. Ah, that is a different thing ; he had already arranged 
with me to be editor. 
26 



202 

Q. You would not have taken the paper if he had not ? A. 
I would not. 

Q. After the good-bye editorial was put in, were you called 
in the office there on that day ? A. I had been in there some 
time. 

Q. On that day ? A. Yes ; Mr. Hawley came over. 

A. Did Mr. Hawley ask you the question then, whether the 
fact that Dr. Talmage had retired, would make any difference 
with you ? A. Why, no, sir. 

Q. (Question repeated.) A. I don't recollect it. 

Q. Will you swear he did not ? A. No ; I won't swear to 
any such thing. 

Q. Did you tell Mr. Hawley that the retirement of Dr. Tal- 
mage would make no difference with you ? A. I never did to 
my knowledge. 

Q. Will you swear you did not ; will you swear that Hawley, 
finding Dr. Talmage had retired, asked if that would make a 
breach in the arrangement ? A. I w 7 on't swear to any such 
thing; I would like to explain that point; I w 7 ill explain it 
right here, so that everyone can understand it right off ; there 
is just this much that Mr. Remington says : he has told me — 
or I got the idea — I don't know how — may have read it in a 
statement somewhere ; I have got the idea that he has said 
— that he intimated or asked me if it would make any 
difference 

Q. (Interrupting.) I am not asking you about Mr. Reming- 
ton ? A.I know, but I want to explain the thing right here. 

Q. Read what Mr. Hawley swore to about fearing that the 
discovery that Dr. Talmage had retired would make a break — 
I want to know if you contradict him ? A. I don't recollect 
of Mr. Hawlej 7 making any such statement. 

Q. Do you recollect enough about that interview to be sure 
you did not make it? A. I would not have been likely to. 

Q. You do not think you made it ? A. I don't think I did. 

Q. (By Mr. Crosby.) Mr. Hawley didn't say it? A. There 
it is ; I don't believe he said it. 

Q. It was Mr. Remington ? A. That is just what I was going 
to explain. 

Q. (By Mr. Millard.) You never stated then to either of 



203 



them, that the retirement of Dr. Talmage would make any 
difference to you ? A. That is just what I was going to explain, 
and will now without getting up ; I would now just like to 
explain that, how that thing might have occurred ; I bought 
the paper on Saturday of Mr. Eemington, with the distinct 
understanding on my part that Dr. Talmage was going on as 
editor ; I never thought of such a thing as his not going on ; I 
recollect when I bought the paper, the contract was not made 
right off, and I got up and went into the Christian at Work office 
and made it up late that afternoon ; Mr. Hawley was in the 
office ; Mr. Remington might have said to me before or after 
that : " Now is there any possible thing that will make you 
break this contract ; will it make any difference whether Tal- 
mage stays with you or not?" I don't know whether he said 
it or not ; it is possible he might have been guarding his inter- 
est ; if he had said so I should have told him no, because I 
had signed the contract. 

Q. I did not ask you that ; I ask you what took place in the 
office on Tuesday in the presence of Mr. Hawley and others — 
to this effect, that you were asked whether the retirement of 
Dr. Talmage would make any difference in your arrangements 
with them, and you said it would make no difference ? A. I 
don't recollect any such thing. 

Q. Will you swear ? A. I won't swear anything about it. 
Q. (By Mr. McCullagh.) The question that the counsel is 

putting to you is after the A. (Interrupting.) I had made 

a bona fide purchase ; if the world had come to an end and 
everybody had left it I should have done it. 

Q. Did you say to Mr. Remington, after you discovered the 
insertion of the " good-bye," when he asked you if the with- 
drawal of Dr. Talmage would render the bargain invalid, that 
you would take the paper irrespective of the Doctor ? A. If 
he had asked the question, I should have answered right off 
that I would have taken it ; I don't recollect it any way ; after I 
agree to do a thing I generally do it ; I had agreed over my 
signature to buy the paper ; I do recollect Mr. Remington's 
making one observation, and it may bear on this : " Why," 
says he, " perhaps Dr. Talmage thought you were such a man 
as himself ;" now, if that bore on the matter at that time, very 
well ; it may have followed. 



204 



Q. (By Mr. Millard.) Didn't you say to anybody on Tues- 
day that the retirement of Dr. Talmage would make no differ- 
ence with you about purchasing the paper ? A. It might have 
been said to Mr. Remington. 

Q. You think you might have said that on Tuesday ? A. If 
he had asked me the question I should have answered that it 
would not make any difference ; if he had asked me the ques- 
tion after I had bought the thing right out, and a man gone 
back on it that way, I should probably have gone on if I had 
lost every cent I put in it. 

Q. You stated it would make no difference in this sense? 
A. Ah, it would make no difference in this sense — will you 
go right on and keep your word if Dr. Talmage breaks his ? 
" Difference " is a word that you can explain in different ways ; 
that is what " difference " means there ; it did make a great 
deal of difference. 

Q. When was it that Dr. Talmage said to you, if you would 
buy the paper, he would edit it a year for nothing ? A. He 
said so several times in March, 1876 ; he has repeatedly said 
that. 

Q. Did you understand him, when he said, that if you 
bought the paper at any time, he would edit it a year for 
nothing ? A. I understood just this ; that just what he said 
he meant ; that if I would buy that paper, and take all the 
risks of making it a paying paper ; if I would furnish the 
money and do that, in order to assist me out the first year — to 
help me — he was willing, on condition that he should go right 
along as editor, to give his services, and to assist me the first 
year by giving his services for nothing, and that to ran so long 
as these negotiations were in progress, unless he informed me 
to the contrarj^ so long as he knew they were progressing. 

Q. If they lasted for five or ten years, you might hold him 
to his contract ? A. So long as he was editor, and negotia- 
tions were in progress, and he gave me no word, if it had lasted 
until the millennium, I could. 

Q. Suppose he had no confidence in you ? A. What did he 
want to get me there for ? 

Q. You think if he had gone on ten years, he would have 
held himself bound to you — to keep himself aloof from every- 



205 



body? A. I think if I had met him the day before the sale, 
and told bim the negotiation was still in progress, and he did 
not give me any hint at all, and let me go right ahead and 
purchase the paper, that he would have done a dishonorable 
and dishonest thing in not telling me ; that is what I think ; 
just what he did do. 

Q. I want to call your attention to that letter of Dr. Tal- 
mage in which he told you to be non-committal towards 
Mr. Remington ? A. That letter is in evidence here ; I think 
it shows for itself. 

Q. How did you understand it ? A. I understood it not to 
tell Mr. Remington too much. 

Q. Because he distrusted Mr. Remington's friendship for 
him ? A. No, sir ; because his statement conflicted with mine ; 
I told the truth right straight through to Mr. Remington, and 
if he had told the truth (and truths run parallel in lines right 
along), how could they conflict? 

Q. Then in regard to that same letter, he says that he told 
you, " Better be non-committal in your conversation with Mr. 
Remington ; don't tell him what other paper we might absorb 
in our project." Did you mean to swear that Dr. Talmage 
stated that when it was not true ; that there w; j s no paper that 
he was thinking of ? A. I am inclined to think we did talk 
about the Methodist. 

Q. I don't ask you what paper ? A. That is the answer to 
the question. 

Q. " Nor how much capital, I tell him we could get any 
amount of capital " -did you understand that he wanted that 
stated to Mr. Remington, when it was not true ; that that 
matter should be misstated ? A. Repeat the question again. 

Q. (Question repeated). A. We could not get any"amount of 
capital, and I don't see why we should tell him so. 

Q. Did you understand Mr. Talmage to want you to misstate 
that thing ; that he was suggesting to you to state that you 
could get capital when you could not ? A. " I tell him that 
we can get any amount of capital ?" I should understand 
from that naturally, that he did not want me to make a state- 
ment that would conflict with that. 

Q. Did you understand A. (Interrupting.) I have given 

my answer. 



206 



Q. You don't believe that to be the fa< t ? A. I have given 
my answer straight. 

Q. Did you believe you could get any amount of capital? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you think Dr. Talmage believed so ? A. I am not 
obliged to give my opinions. 

Q. After that, didn't you try to get him to be the editor o* 
your paper ? A. After what ? 

Q. After this letter ? A. Tried to get him ? No ; he was 
engaged to be the editor. 

Q. You still wanted him to continue? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. A man that had told a lie ? A. I have not said he told 
a lie; that is your statement. 

Q. Didn't you state, when you stated that he said any 
amount of capital could be obtained, that that was false? 
A. I thought that was rather a grandiloquent way of speaking, 
sir. 

Q. Didn't you think it was false ? A. I have answered it. 

(Question repeated.) A. I thought it was, in one sense, not 
strictly true, but it is a pardonable way to speak that way ; it 
was a large amount, that is all. 

Q. You thought he meant you could get a large amount ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. So it would depend on what he meant by a large amount? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, in regard to that interview at Major Corwin's 
house, just state that again. A. I will ; shall I give the whole 
of it ? ' 

Q. If you please ; state whether you swore yesterday that in 
that interview you did not use the word " stoppage " ? A. I 
may have used the word " stoppage." 

Q. Didn't you yesterday say that you did not use it ?" A. I 
stated I thought I did not ; I don't think I did ; if you will let 
me think a moment, I think I can think what word I used ; I 
suppose the stenographer has it here. 

Q. You don't remember it ? A. Just at the moment I do 
not. 

Q. I will ask you now, did you, at that interview at Major 
Corwin's house, say anything about stoppage ; was there any- 



207 



thing said about stoppage ? A. I don't recollect the word 
" stoppage"; I don't think that word was used— the word 
"stoppage"; it don't strike me that that word was used ; it 
possibly may have been used ; oh, I will tell you what was 
used; I rather think that or a kindred word was used in this 
way : in the first part of it he said : " Mr. Hallock, could you 
get out an edition of the Christian Work so as to furnish it to 
all the subscribers" — I might have said " so as to furnish it to 
all the subscribers with" — I might have said " without any 
stoppage;" but the idea was to give it right along? No, sir> 
I think he used the word " break " — " without any break " ; I 
think that was the word Dr. Talmage said to me. 

Q. You mean to say there was no word " stoppage " used 
there? A. Not in that connection — " so that it could be fur- 
nished to all the subscribers without any break." 

Q. What did you mean by that? A. This: " Gould you get 
out an edition right off next week, so as to furnish it to all the 
subscribers, so that they could get it right along at their usual 
time, all of them, and not be a week too late ; without a 
break." 

Q. What was the object of that if it was to be a new enter- 
prise ; why would not it be just as well a week after, if it was 
to be an independent paper ? A. You. are reasoning with me 
now ; I will give you the conversation. 

Q. Can you give an} 7 reason why they said, " so that there 
should not be a break," if they were not thinking of the sus- 
pension of the paper ? A. Those were the words used. 

Q. You were mistaken w 7 hen you said the word "stoppage"? 
A I didn't know that I said it ; I may have said it in the sense 
of the word "break." 

Q. Will you tell me, Mr. Hallock, what they could have 
meant by the word break, if they were not thinking of the 
stoppage of the other paper? A. I have explained what I un- 
derstood to be meant by the word " break." 

Q. What was the importance of that when the other paper 
was going on ? Couldn't you start just as well two weeks 
after ? A. It might not be. 

Q. Why ? A. That was their own business. 

Q. Can you think of any reason, if any, to take up a paper 



208 



that was defunct and continue it? A. They may have had 

reason in their own minds. 

Q. You mean to swear there at that time they were not talk- 
ing about the other paper going down ; that that was not 
talked of ? A. I mean to swear that the intention was to have 
both papers run right along. 

Q. Did you think at that time what they meant by that 
word " break ? " A. I got this idea from it : " Mr. Hallo ck, 
could you furnish a paper so as to get it to the subscribers at 
a proper time ? " 

Q. Did you stop to think ? A. No, I did not. 

Q. Can you tell us now what was the importance of that if 
this was to be started as an independent paper? A. No, sir ; 
I cannot think of it. 

Q. It would have been important, would it, if the other was 
to go down, that they should get it the same week? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. You thought that was a dishonorable thing in regard to 
the good will of the paper ? A. Yes,. sir. 

Q. You understood in that conversation that it was said to 
you that while the other paper was going on they could take 
that name so near to it, and thus steal the good will of the 
the paper ? A. That is it. 

Q. You thought it a ver} T dishonorable thing ? A. I should, 
as a business man. 

Q. Did you think it was on their part ? A. I thought they 
did not know enough to know much about it. 

Q. You thought it might be a mere error of judgment? A. 
In looking back upon that now ; I don't express any opinion ; 
it may have been. 

Q. You did not get, then, any unfavorable impression of 
Dr. Talmage's character from that ? A. Very unfavorable of 
his judgment ; before that I knew nothing against him at all, 
and it struck me he didn't know what he was talking about. 

Q. You thought of his assenting to take that mailing list 
and using it in the new paper? A. I looked at it in this 
way : Dr. Talmage has an idea which is, he says that he has 
done that paper a great deal of good, and really that he has 
influenced those subscribers to such a degree that the list is 



209 



more his than Mr. Remington's ; but I did not look at it in 
that way. 

Q. Did you tell them what you thought of the morality of 
the thing ? A. I did not go into a lecture on morals there. 

Q. You think, then, so far as Dr. Talmage was concerned, it 
may have been a mere misapprehension of the nature of the 
thing ? A. I thought at the time it might. 

Q. You say in regard to that Monday when you told Dr. 
Talmage that you had bought the paper, as you swore here, 
that then he told you if he had known it the Friday before he 
could have closed with it ; yon say on Tuesday evening when 
you found his editorial in, that evening he came to see you? 
A. He said : " If you had shown me a week before I would have 
signed it at once." 

Q. Did you say then : " Doctor, you are already under obli- 
gation ? " A.' No, sir ; he said he vould give me an answer 
to-morrow ; I didn't know but what he wanted an increase of 
salary ; it puzzled me very much. 

Q. When he said on that Monday he could not sign it, but 
would if he had known it a week before, did you say : " Why, 
Doctor, you are under an agreement ? " A. He did not say 
he would not sign it ; he said he would give me an answer to- 
morrow. 

Q. On Tuesday he came to see you ? A. No, I went to see 
him. 

Q. You say you went to give him a piece of your mind ? 
A. I did. 

Q. Just state what you did say that night ? A. I don't rec- 
ollect much that I said ; I did not say much ; I know he did 
not give me much of an explanation ; he spoke in regard to 
the old management and said something about not being afraid 
to leave it to the ministers ; and I might have made the 
remark that I would rather have given $5,000 than to have the 
thing occur. 

Q. That is about the substance ? A. As far as I recollect. 

Q. Did you charge him on that occasion with having broken 
his agreement? A. No, sir; I was too full to charge him with 
anything. 

Q. You didn't say " Doctor, you have broken your agree- 
27 



210 



ment ?" A. No, sir ; I don't think I did ; I was too full to 

say anything. 

Q. He didn't try to justify himself? A. So far as I am con- 
cerned, he did not. 

Q. Did he admit that he had been wrong? A. Not so far as 
I was concerned ; so far as I was concerned, he said nothing. 

Q. Only that he offered to leave it out to ministers? A. He 
didn't offer that ; he only made a casual remark something 
like that, as I recollect. 

Q. What church did you say yesterday that you belonged 
to? A. Congregational. 

Q. What particular church? A. The Congregational 
Church of the College of New Haven ; Yale College. 

Q. Are you in the habit of occasionally attending the Taber- 
nacle Church ? A. I do, sometimes. 

Q. If so, how often ? A. Oh, I don't know ; once in a while; 
just as it happens. 

Q. Has this been your habit since October 9, 187b* ? A. 
Yes, sir ; I have called in occasionally. 

Q. Did you ever make any complaint to any member of the 
Presbytery about the conduct of Dr. Talmage in withdrawing 
from the Christian at Work, and if so, to whom? A. I may — I 
don't recollect. 

Q. Are you aware that either of the officers of the Christian 
at Work, Mr. Dickinson or Mr. Hawley, have done so or not ? 
A. No, sir ; I don't know what they have done. 

Q. Has Mr. Crosby visited you and talked with you on this 
subject ; if so, how often ? A. Yes, sir ; he has done his duty 
pretty faithfully. 

Q. As the counsel, I renew my question ; has Mr. Crosby 
visited you prior to his appointment as a member of the 
Prosecuting Committee, and talked with you on the subject? 
A. I never knew him before that. 

Q. Did Mr. Crosby, before the appointment of Mr. McCul- 
lagh and himself as prosecuting counsel, visit you and con- 
sult ? A. What date ? 

Q. February 3d? A. I don't think 1 was acquainted with 
you at that time (turning to Mr. Crosby) ? 

Q. Before this trial began ; this trial began the 24th of 
March? A. He may have done so. 



211 



Q. You think he did ? A. I think he may have done so. 
Q. Not frequently ? A. I cannot [answer that ; oh, no, not 
frequently. 

Q. Where did he find you ? A. He has called at my office 
several times. 

Q. Can you give exact dates ? A. Oh, no. 

Q. Has any other member of the Presbytery visited you, or 
talked with you on this subject, and if so, whom ? A. I think 
Mr. McCullagh called once or twice ; I don't know whether I 
saw you (to Mr. Crosby) before the tenth of March ; no, sir ; 
I have not. 

Q. Were your relations with Dr. Talmage prior to October 
9th, 1876, mutually pleasant, so far as you knew? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Have you ever applied the terms falsehood and deceit 
to the action of Dr. Talmage in his withdrawal from the 
Christian at Work ? A. I may have done so. 

Q. You don't know whether you have or not ? A. I don't 
know ; I have here, since I sat in the witness chair. 

Q. Were you angry and indignant at Dr. Talmage after 
being informed ^of his withdrawing ? A. I had a righteous 
indignation. 

Q. Were you so? A. You must define anger sir, first. 
Q. Indignant — I will take that word ? A. Yes, sir ; I was 
indignant. 

Q. Have you remained in that state of mind ever since ? A. 
No, I have not. 

Q. You have gotten over it ? A. Well, there was one time 
when I was not in that state of mind. 

Q. That is sufficient ; have you been in the habit of speak- 
ing disparagingly of Dr. Talmage since the month of October, 
1876 ? A. I hardly think so ; I have not intended to do so. 

Q. You don't recollect it ? A. I may have ; I don't recollect 
it at this moment. 

Q. You don't recollect speaking to any party? A. I don't 
recollect at this moment ; I may have done so. 

Q. You spoke yesterday of interviews with Mr. Talmage 
for the sale of the Christian at Work ; how many of these in- 
terviews did you have; about how many? A. I gave all I 
could think of yesterday ; I don't recollect the number. 



212 



Q. Those you stated yesterday were those that you had ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. In describing these interviews as you did yesterday — the 
various interviews — did you mean to give the exact words of 
Dr. Talmage in any case ? A.I think there were some cases 
in which I stated that I gave the exact words. 

Q. You meant to ? A. I think so, I don't recollect just now 
what they were ; I think I stated so at the time ; yes, I re- 
collect now the exact words, sir ; (i we will make it whiz ; " 
those were his words. 

Q. That was not prior A. (Interrupting.) Oh, no ; I beg 

your pardon. 

Q. Do you remember the interview at the residence and in 
the presence of Major Corwin on the 6th of March, 3876 ? A. 
Was that the date, sir ? . 

Q. That is my question ? A. I recollect the interview with 
Major Corwin ; whatever date it was ; I don't know that I 
could fix the date. 

Q. The sixth of March, 1876 ? A. That may have been the date ; 
I think that was the first interview that we had; it may have 
been the date; it may have been the very first interview I 
had with Dr. Talmage ; it may have been the sixth ; I don't 
recollect; I am rather inclined to think that was, now that I 
think of it. 

Q. That there was an interview in March ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who were present at that interview? A. Dr. Talmage 
and Major Corwin and myself. 

Q. Did you see anybody else in the house ? A. I saw r some 
one come and open the door. 

Q. Did you meet Mrs. Corwin ? A. Perhaps she may have 
been the one ; there was only one pat ty ; perhaps she may 
have been the one that opened the door, 

Q. What time was that interview held '? A. It w r as at the 
close of the meeting at the Lay College there ; I suppose it 
might have been ten o'clock perhaps, at the close of the meet- 
ing. 

Q. Did you first go to Dr. Talmage's house ? A. I did. 
Q. And from there to the Lay College ? A. I did. 
Q. Did he talk with you on the way ? A. I don't recollect ; 
I presume so. 



213 



Q. Did lie state to you the object of the interview ? A. I 
suppose, yes ; he said he wanted to see Major Corwin, and him 
and I talk it over. 

Q. So that you arrived at Major Corwin's rather late in the 
eveniug? A. Rather late, yes sir. 

Q. Was not the financial condition of the Christian at Work 
the great theme talked of at that interview ? A. It may have 
been talked of ; there was preliminary conversation ; I should 
say, no sir, to that ; it was not the great theme. 

Q. Was anything said at that interview about the stoppage 
of the Christian at Work ? A. I think they did speak about 
the financial condition, and may have spoken about the stop- 
page. 

Q. Will you give the exact language ? A. I could not do 
that. 

Q. Can you tell what Dr. Talmage said there ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Repeat it in concise words, just as near as you can in 
substance ? A. 1 would not profess to give the precise words ; 
he says : " Now, I will tell you my plan ; we will at once get out 
a paper to be called Christian Work, you the publisher and I 
the editor ; and we will fill the unexpired subscriptions of the 
Christian at Work from Major Corwin's list without change, 
and as fast as they expire one after another, they will all follow 
me ; some small number might follow Remington, I don't 
know whether five hundred or not." 

Q. Didn't Major Corwin, at that interview, say to you dis- 
tinctly that it was doubtful if the Chris'ian at Work could 
be continued even another week, its financial embarrassment 
was so great it was liable to burst up at any time? A. I clon't 
recollect that ; he may have said it was liable to burst up at 
any time— -that Mr. Remington was tired. 

Q. (By Mr. St. John). Was Mr. Corwin at this time pub- 
lisher of the Christian at Work? A. I rather think so. 

Q. Had you ever spoken to Mr. Corwin before this ? A. I 
don't recollect ; I may have done so. 

Q. Did this lead to other interviews ? A. Not with Major 
Corwin. 

Q. How long did this interview last ? A. I could not tell, 
perhaps three-quarters of an hour. 



214 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage say anything about the financial condi- 
tion of the paper to you? A. He may. 

Q. And that he thought every issue of it would be the last } 
owing to its embarrassed condition? A. I don't remember 
that ; he may have said that. 

Q. He did speak of its financial condition? A. I rather 
think he did ; I rather think it was spoken of; that Mr. Rem- 
ington was tired, I rather think that was one of the prelimi- 
naries. 

Q. Did he have that kind of conversation with you on his 
way to the Lay College and then up to Mr. Corwin's house ? 
A. I don't recollect ; he may have done so ? 

Q. State what you understood Dr. Talmage meant when he 
spoke about avoiding the appearance of a break? A. Yes, 
sir ; I have explained that ; it conveyed to my mind the idea 
that 

Q. (Interrupting.) That the paper might be suspended and 
there might be a break? A. It did not couvey that idea to 
my mind, whatever Mr. Talmage meant by it ; it conveyed at 
the moment this idea to me : without the appearance of a break 
could you at a week's notice get out a paper and go right on 
and furnish the subscribers, so that yon would have them all 
have the paper in proper season. 

Q. What did you understand Dr. Talmage to mean, when 
he proposed to you to get out the paper from your own type ? 
A. Why, to print it in my own type, which I had in the Christian 
at Work office ; that is what I understood ; that is the type 
from which the Liberal Christian was printed at that time. 

Q. Is that the statement (handing a paper to the witness)? 
A. Yes, sir ; I have no doubt of that. 

Q. (Reading.) " After introducing me, we took our seats, 
and Dr. Talmage asked me if I could, in an emergency, get out 
an edition of the Christian at Work next week on my own type 
without any appearance of a break, having all the subscribers 
furnished with their paper at the usual time ; I replied that I 
could do so in an emergency, but that it required great effort 
on my part, and I did not see how anything practical could 
come from it ? " A. That is substantially correct ; it may not 
have been a week. 



215 



Q. Is that your language? A. If lie has read it correctly 
from the statement ; I presume that is the statement. 

Q. If you have any doubt about itl would rather you would 
read it yourself ? A. I would rather (the statement is handed 
to the witness) ; that appears to be the language of the state- 
ment. 

Q. It is your language ? A. The statement. 
Q. It is your language as put in that statement ? A. As in 
the statement. 

Q. You are the author of that statement ? A. I wrote that 
statement. 

Q. Didn't this emergency to which you refer in that state- 
ment refer to the possible or probable stoppage of the paper? 
A. What emergency ? 

Q. The emergency of which you spoke in this statement ? 
A. Oh ! no, sir ; I did not take it so. 

Q. What did it refer to ? A. Why, that he asked me if it 
was a possible thing to do it. 

Q. You referred to this conversation and interview, and Dr. 
Talmage asked you if you could, in an emergency ? A. That 
is, if it was possible to do it in an emergency. 

Q. What emergency ? A. It conveyed the idea of possibility 
to my mind ; can you do it ? 

Q. It was no emergency in the case of the Christian at Work* 
but an emergency in your own mind? A. In any emergency ; 
in an emergency. 

Q. Would the emergency be in your own mind, or in the 
Christian at Work ? A. I didn't know anything about the 
Christian at Work ; he asked me the simple question, and did 
not refer to the Christian at Work. 

Q. You are stating what transpired, and him asking this 
question if you could in an emergency ? A. He hadn't said 
anything about the Christian at Work then ; I did not refer to 
the Christian at Work at all ; I think if he did ask it, it con- 
veyed the same idea as this : " Now, Hallock, could you do 
such a thing as that?" I said, "Yes." 

Q. Did you see any subscription list there that night ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Do you know that the Christian at Work was very 



216 



seriously embarrassed all the way from the spring of 1876 up 
to the summer ? A. Not of my own knowledge, sir. 

Q. Were you informed it was so ? A. I may have been ; I 
think so, sir ; I am not certain. 

Q. Were you not so informed by parties connected with the 
paper ? A. I don't recollect it now. 

Q. So that you have no idea of the actual financial condition 
of the paper ? A. Oh, yes ; I knew they were losicg money. 

Q. How did you know it ? A. I^think Dr. Talmage told me 
that. 

Q. Anybody else? A. I don't recollect anybody else. 

Q. Except Dr. Talmage? A. I think he told me that; he 
was very fair about that, indeed, I think. 

Q. What did you understand to be the object of Dr. Tal- 
mage in seeking that interview with Major Corwin that night ; 
what did you understand from Dr. Talmage to be the object of 
it ? A. To see Major Corwin. 

Q. Why were you to see Major Corwin together? A. I 
don't know that he explained that to me ; he may have. 

Q. It was simply an invitation to call on Mr. Corwin without 
stating the object at all ? A. It strikes me so ; I feel quite 
sure he did say, " I want you to go around and call on Major 
Corwin." 

Q. On the way he said nothing about the design ? A. Very 
likely he did so ; I don't recollect. 

Q. Do you know or were you informed by others that the 
question had been talked of in the Christian at Work of drop- 
ping the word " at" ? A. At that time ; did I know it at that 
time ? 

Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 

Q. Have you subsequently received that knowledge by in- 
formation ? A. I have heard that it had been talked of. 

Q. And that, too, before this interview? A. That it had 
been talked before ? no ; I don't recollect about that ; perhaps 
it had before that interview. 

Q. This statement published by you on Thursday, October 
19th, 1876 ; I want to ask you a single question in reference to 
the interview held in the park ; in this statement, in your tes- 
timony you say you informed Dr. Talmage that you were 



217 



about to purchase the paper? A. Just about to purchase the 
paper. 

Q. You meant by that, what ? A. Just what I said ; that I 
was just about to purchase it. 

Q. What does the word " about" mean there? A. The 
word "about " meant there that I was just going to purchase 
it. 

Q. I will ask my associate counsel to read his published 
statement. 

Mr. Millard reads : " Previous to this time, namely, Friday, 
October 6th, in the afternoon, I accidentally met Mr. Talmage 
while crossing the City Hall park; I had not seen or communi- 
cated with him for a long time, and I shook hands with him, 
remarking that he was the very man I wanted to see ; he made 
a similar remark to me ; I said that I was seriously thinking of 
purchasing the Christian at Work, and laughingly reminded 
him of the promise he once made me to edit the paper a year 
for nothing if I would purchase it." 

Q. Is that your language ? A. It is substantially the lan- 
guage. 

Q. What you have published is that you were seriously 
thinking of purchasing? A. That conveys the same idea to 
my mind; that I was seriously thinking just before — of pur- 
chasing or publishing ? 

Q. Of purchasing ? A. That conveys the same idea to my 
mind that I was just about to purchase. 

Q. At the time you published this it was very near the pe- 
riod of retirement? A. The time at which I made that 
statement ; the time I wrote it, or when it appeared ? 

Q. When it appeared, on the 19th, it was very near the pe- 
riod of retirement ? A. Yes, sir ; that appeared next week. 

Q. Then your memory of the conversation with Dr. Talmage 
was fresher, of course ? A. It would be naturally. 

Q. Which would you be likely to recollect with most accu- 
racy, an event that has transpired within a few days involving 
some excitement of mind or an event that has transpired three 
or four years antecedently ? A. I did not attempt to give the 
words to that. 
28 



218 



Q. You swore to about the words ? A. It was substantially 

correct. 

Q. As you have stated, you said to Dr. Talmage that you 
were seriously thinking of doing it, without fixing the time ? 
A. No, I did not fix the time ; I did not know then when I 
should close it up ; I had got it down to the poiut when I 
should buy it if I got the chance. 

Q. You did not inform Dr. Talmage at that time that you 
were about to purchase the paper? A. That is my idea of it ; 
that is as I recollect it ; I think those are my words. 

Q. " That you were about to purchase the paper," and that 
you were seriously thinking of purchasing the paper," are 
equivalent? A. I think there is a little shadow of difference; 
" about " would convey the nearest idea ; the way I should 
speak, I should think it would convey the same impression ; I 
say just about to purchase the paper ; I had got this thing to 
a head. 

Q. You did not use this word, " that you had got it to a 
head?" A. Oh, no. 

Q. You spoke yesterday, Mr. Hallock, of the interview 
which you had on the 9th of October with Dr. Talmage ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Did I understand you to say that you then informed Dr. 
Talmage at the Astor House that you had purchased the Chris- 
tian at Work? A. I did. 

Q. Can you give the exact language of this iuterview.? A. 
I don't think I could. 

Q. But you are positive you gave Dr. Talmage that informa- 
tion — that you had purchased it ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You said also that Dr. Talmage agreed to be your editor 
for the compensation of $2,000 ? A. Oh, no, he did not agree ; 
he did not sign that contract. 

Q. Did you make that proposition to him ? A. I put the 
paper before him ; I had told him the Friday before that I 
would give him the $2,000. 

Q. Did you receive a letter from Dr. Talmage the next day ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was the date of that letter ? A. It was dated 
Monday, if I recollect, October 9th. 



219 



Q. What time on Monday did you receive it ? A. I did not 
receive it Monday ; I received it Tuesday. 

Q. What time of the day did you receive it? A. I was in 
the office all the morning of Tuesday, and when I went out of 
the office, w T hen Mr. Hawley came in, it was quite late in the 
forenoon ; I did not get it until towards night, but I think it 
came into the office about two o'clock. 

Q. Where was it postmarked ? A. It was not postmarked ; 
it was sent by private messenger. 

Q. Was your attention arrested by anything peculiar about 
that letter — its phraseology? A. I did not pay much attention 
to it, except the declining, at the time. 

Q. That letter came into your possession ? A. That night. 

Q. Now, do you think that Dr. Talmage understood you at 
the time to say to him that you would buy the paper ? A. 
Oh, yes. 

Q. You are positive ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you think that phrase which occurs in the letter, "in 
case you purchase it," was what, in the mind of Dr. Talmage ? 
A. I think he knew that I had purchased it. 

Q. How came that phrase in the letter if he understood you 
to inform him that you had purchased it ? A. I must leave 
that for him to explain. 

Q. That is the letter coming to you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And on the very same day on which the letter was written 
you had informed him of the fact that you had purchased it? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did the fact that that phrase occurs, "in case you pur- 
chase it," arrest your attention or not? A. It may and may 
not at the time ; I should not have paid much attention to the 
phraseology of the letter, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. Millard.) That is the letter, is it not (handing 
letter to witness) ? A. That appears to be the letter, sir ; I 
can hardly read it, it is so fine. 

Mr. Millard (reading) : " Mr. Hallock, I have considered the 
offer you made me of the editorial chair of the Christian at 
Work in case you purchased it, and have concluded it is my 
duty to decline it and say I have accepted another position. 
Yours, etc." 



220 



Q. You saw that language? A. I saw the declining; I 
had the letter, and I saw enough of it to know that he had 
declined. 

Q. You read the whole of the letter ? A. I don't know 
whether I did or not ; I saw the declining. 

Q. It is probable you read the whole letter ? A. I generally 
do read my letters ; probably I did that. 

Q. Did you seek this interview of Monday the 9th ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. What time of day ? A. Along toward noon. 
Q. Did you go up into the office of the Christian at Work ? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. How did you communicate with Dr. Talmage that you 
wanted an interview ? A. I was going right along up into the 
office and Mr. Cohen happened to be coming clown ; says I, 
" Is Mr. Talmage up there ; " he said he would speak to him ; 
« Yery well," says I, " call him down ; " that is all. 

Q. Did you on the morning of Tuesday see Mr. Bright in 
the office of the Christian at Work ? A. It strikes me that I 
saw Mr. Bright Tuesday ; yes, sir ; I don't know whether he 
was in the offiee or not. 

Q. Did he ask you the question whether the withdrawal of 
Dr. Talmage would make any difference in regard to the 
paper ? A. I don't think he did ; no, sir ; may I be allowed 
to state that the difference is so indefinite there that it didn't 
make a great difference, you know. 

Q. When was it that Dr. Talmage said that if you pur- 
chased the paper he would be your editor for nothing ? A. In 
March, 187(3, and several times afterwards. 

Q. Did you regard that as an indefinite promise ? A. I 
did, as long as the negotiations were going forward and he was 
editor, until he released himself from it ; as long as he knew I 
was going to purchase the paper or trying to. 

Q. When did you next see Dr. Talmage as to the matter of 
purchasing the paper? A. I could not give the order of the 
visits at that time. 

Q. Will you tell the court when you seriously contemplated 
the question of purchasing ; when it became a grave question 
with you of purchasing or not ? A. It became with me a grave 



221 

question very early in March ; I had made up my mind that if 
I could get the Christian at Work at anything that I regarded 
as a reasonable figure, with Mr. Talmage as editor, I would 
take it ; I had made up my mind thoroughly — so thoroughly 
that if you wish me to go on further I will give a proof of it. 

Q. Are you acquainted with a man by the name of Downs 
in New York, and were you at that time ? A. I will explain ; 
he is not in New York, I will tell you ; he was not in New York 
at that time. 

Q. You were acquainted with him ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you aware of his desire to purchase the paper? A. 
Of Downs' desire ? 

Q. Of having an interview with Dr. Talmage on that sub- 
ject ? A. I think I sent Downs to Dr. Talmage ; it was in my 
own interest, and I think I sent Mr. Downs to Dr. Talmage ; I 
was really the party interested. 

Q. In this published statement, I find the phrase " secret in- 
structions," in the same connection ; will you have the kind- 
ness to state what you meant by that phrase? A. I was reli- 
ably informed that Dr. Talmage had in the afternoon given in- 
structions to Mr. Dodge, or to the pressman, to run the edi- 
tion off that night ; that is what I meant by the " secret in- 
structions." 

Q. Do you of your own knowledge know that he gave any 
such orders ? A. No. sir. 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage put in the advertise- 
ment of the Advance ? A. No, sir ; not of my own knowledge. 

Mr. Millard reads the following paragraph to the witness : 
" At the same time an advertisement was taken out and his 
own announcement put in, the presses then being started ac- 
cording to Mr. Talmage's seeret instructions, given to the 
pressman in the afternoon, to run all night, that this surrepti- 
tious edition might be worked off and mailed to subscribers 
before the owners of the paper could prevent it." 

Q. That was the language you then used ? A. That appears 
to be ; yes, sir. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage speak to you about any unpleasant 
associations between him and Mr. Eemington ? A. I think he 
did ; I don't think they got along first rate together. 



222 



Q. He spoke of it as an uncomfortable relation ? A.I think 
lie did, sir. 

Q. Quite frequently ? A. They didn't get along very nicely 
together, I think. 

Q. Did he speak of it as indicating that he was annoyed ? 
A. I should rather think he did ; I think I gained that im- 
pression. 

Q. Did you see the letter purporting to be written by Major 
Corwin, called out by the one you have published. A. Yes, 
sir; that is in evidence, T think. 

Q. Did you afterwards publish in your paper, the Christian 
at Work, a denial of the statements? A. I never chased the 
lie any further ; I stopped right there ; it stood and stands as 
long as the truth lasts. 

Q. Did } r ou publish a denial ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Since the publication of the Corwin letter, what have 
been your feelings towards Dr. Talmage ? A. I have had no 
feeling of bitterness whatever ; no feeling of malice whatever. 

Q. After you purchased the paper, did you not repeatedly 
publish in that paper letters you had received from various 
correspondents, some of them anonymous, denouncing Dr 
Talmage ? A. I may have done so ; I don't recollect. 

Q. Was it a fact or not ? A. I cannot tell. 

Q. Did you open your columns to denunciatory letters about 
Dr. Talmage ? A. To true statements. 

Q. Answer my question ? A. I should have to be shown 
the statements first. 

Q. Answer the general question ; did you open your 
columns to statements and communications, some of them 
anonymous and some of them with the signatures of the wri- 
ter, commenting on Dr. Talmage's retirement disparagingly ? 
A. I may have done so. 

Q. Do you think you did ? A. I think very likely. 

Q. Did you publish column after column of letters of that 
description ? A. I think there was one week when we pub- 
lished about two pages of letters. 

Q. Did you continue it from time to time ? A. Not very 
much after that ; I think there was one week we gave a good 
dose of them. 



223 



Q. Now, I am going to call yonr attention to that contract 
of which you speak — the contract for sale ; when did you be- 
come the owner of the Christian at Work ? A. On October 
7th — Saturday. 

Q. What time of day ? A. It was pretty late in the after- 
noon ; 1 think it was rather dark when we got up in the office 
of the Christian at Work, to finish the work. 

Q. Did you pay over the subscription rnouey ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you put into the hands of Mr. Remington any notes 
or securities that were equivalent to the purchase ? A. I re- 
collect that I paid a thousand dollars down very quickly ; I do 
not recollect whether that night or not ; I do not recollect 
whether we paid any that night or not. 

Q. Were there any duplicates? A. No, sir; I do not know, 
but Mr. Remington may have had. 

Q. That was the bill of sale ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who held the contract? A. I think I held one, and he 
may have held another. 

Q. There was a duplicate ? A. I do not know about that ; I 
held one. 

Q. Just refresh your memory ; were there duplicates of that 
paper ? A. I cannot tell, sir ; I cannot tell whether he had 
one or not ; perhaps Mr. Hawley may remember. 

Q. You do not remember whether there was more than one ? 
A. Not at this moment. 

Q. Do you know what party held it? A I held that one — 
this one that is in here ; I have held it ever since that night. 

Q. Was not that the contract for sale, contemplating the 
future ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Didn't that contract need to be ratified by the action of 
the Trustees of the Christian at Work ? A. I did not trouble 
my mind about that. 

Q. Didn't that contract need to be ratified by the action of 
the Trustees of the Christian at Work Company, before it be- 
came a consummated transaction ? A. Not so far as Mr. 
Remington and myself were concerned ; I don't care any fur- 
ther ; he was the man introduced by Mr. Talmage himself, as 
the principal man to negotiate with. 

Q. The Christian at Work was published by the company, 
was it not ? A. Yes, sir. 



224 

Q. Ton knew that fact ? I did. 

Q. You knew that Mr. Bemington was but one member of 
that company? A. I knew that he was the member. 

Q. You knew that he was but one member of the company ? 
A. I knew that he was but one member ; yes, sir. 

Q. Were there other members ? A. That I do not know ? 
the stock may have been all made over to him before that 
time — September ; I did not trouble myself with any of those 
questions at all ; I knew he was the party responsible, and the 
party I bad been introduced to, and all right, and I knew I was. 

Q. When was the property actually delivered to you, and 
placed in your custody, possession and control? A. On that 
night. 

Q. You assumed A. I assumed the whole thing from 

that time, and paid for it right along. 

Q. The paper issued on the 12th of October, 1876, and 
printed previously; was that under your authority? A. It 
was, sir ; the paper itself. 

Q. Did you, from the 7th of October, 1876, assume the re- 
sponsibility of paying all the salaries and wages of the em- 
ployees ? A. From that day ? 

Q. From the 7th ? A. Yes, sir ; paid them the next week ; 
they were to commence from Monday, you know. 

Q. Did the contract which you then made, whether it was 
final or not, whether it needed the confirmation of the Trustees 
or not, include in its terms the continuance of Dr. Talmage as 
editor for one hour ? A. No, sir. 

Q. For no period ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Not for thirty days ? A. Not for a second. 

Q. He was not mentioned in it at all ? A. Not in the con- 
tract. 

Q. No provision was made for him ? A. Not the slightest. 

Q, Did you, at any time, on or after the Saturday, October 
7th, 1876, in which you say you bought the paper, seek to en- 
gage the services of Dr. Talmage ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You said yesterday that A. Kepeat the question 

before. 

Q. Did you, at any time, on or after Saturday, October 7th, 
1876, in which you say you bought the paper, seek to engage 



225 



the services of Dr. Talmage ? A. Monday I put the paper be- 
iore him ; I considered him engaged to me for nothing. 

Q. Answer my question ; did you seek to engage his ser- 
vices? A. I do not know whether you call it engaged. 

Q. Did you engage his services ? Q. No, sir. 

Q. Did you try to ? A. I put the contract before him. 

Q. You said yesterday that you and Mr. Bright examined 
the forms of the paper on the afternoon of the 9th of October ? 
A. I beg your pardon, I made no such statement. 

Q. Did you examine the forms on that afternoon ? A. No, 
sir ; I never did myself. 

Q. Didn't you say you examined them to see if all things 
were straight? A. I did not state it in that language, sir. 

Q. I come now to this mailing list business for a question or 
two ; you said yesterday you thought Dr. Talmage had fur- 
nished the mail list of the Christian at Work to the Advance ? 
A. Are you sure that I said that? 

Q. Did you say that? A. I do not think I stated that that 
way ; that I was cognizant of the fact — 

Q. (Interrupting.) You were fully satisfied, I think that was 
your language ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That he did so? A. That he did what, I want to know. 

Q. That he furnished the mail list of the Christian at Work to 
the Advance ? A. That it was furnished by his instrumental- 
ity and Mr. Corwin's. 

Q. Do you know or not whether there was more than one 
mail list ? A. I can explain, if you will allow me, in two min- 
utes, the w r hole thing. 

Q. The counsel on the redirect can ask as many questions as 
they please and you can explain ? A. There was only one list 
of subscribers in one sense, but there were several copies of it. 

Q. You understand the phrase " mailing list" to mean the 
list of names for the purpose of mailing a newspaper ? A. I 
do, I think. 

Q. Was there more than one such list? A. There was a 
list struck off every week, and as Mr. Corwin says, three in 
that time; I never strike but two myself. 

Q. You were informed by Major Corwin that there were 
three mail lists ? A. I think he may have informed me ; I get 
29 



226 



the idea now that he struck off three when he had the paper ; 
I never had but two. 

Q. Were you informed at all as to where those mail lists 
were kept ? A. I got the idea ; I do not know where ; Major 
Corwin may have told me that he had taken home one list in 
his desk. 

Q. If there was more than one —at least three — if the mail 
list was furnished to the Advance, might it not have been fur- 
nished without the knowledge or action of Dr. Talmage? A. 
I think not, sir. 

Q. Now were you in any one of the court rooms of this city 
last week ? A. I do not recollect ; I often do go in them. 

Q. Can you recollect the fact whether you were or not? A. 
I do not know ; but I often did ; very likely I was. 

Q. I want to call your attention very closely to the questions 
I put ; did you last week say to anybody in these rooms, refer- 
ring to this trial : "I can say all that I have to say inside of 
thirty minutes,", or use words to that effect? A. I do not re- 
collect that, sir. 

Q. Please answer the question positively whether you did 
or not ? I do not recollect it ; is that a correct answer ? 

Q. Did you last week say to anybody in one of these court 
rooms of this city : " There is nothing in this whole thing but 
a slight misunderstanding," or use words to that effect ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. You said no such thing? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you in this room say to anybody : " I can s ij all I 
have to say in thirty minutes," or words to that effect? A. 
The only one I spoke to in this~ u room, I think, was Mr. B. F. 
Wells ; he was talking to me. 

Q. Answer my question. (Question repeated)? A. I do 
not think that was my language. 

Q. Or did you use words to that effect ? Q. I said I could 
soon state the truth. 

Q. Did you use words to this effect : " I can say all that I 
have to say inside of thirty minutes" ? A. I may have done 
so ; I do not recollect that statement precisely in that way. 

Q. Did you last week sa^v in this room : " There is nothing 
in this whole thing but a slight misunderstanding"? A. Oh, 



227 



ho, sir ; I may have said : " There is nothing in this whole 
thing." 

Q. But a slight misunderstanding? A. No, sir. 

Q. You are positive you did not use those words ? A. 
" There is nothing in this whole thing, but a slight misunder- 
standing " ? I am very positive not, sir. 

. Q. Did yon, in this room last week, say : " What little I 
have got to say won't hurt Dr. Talmage or Mr. Corwin "? A. 
No, sir ; I said I should not say anything about Mr. Corwin, 
probably. 

Q. Did you use those words, or words to that effect ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Did you last week, in this room, say : "I did expect Dr. 
Talmage to go with me, and for a day or two I felt hurt " ? A. 
May I ask you one thing? 

Q. No, sir ; I am putting the questions to you. (Question 
repeated) ? A. " For a day or two " ? no, sir ; I never made 
any such remark, I feel confident of it ; but I did feel it 
for a day or two. 

Q. Did you, last week in this room, say : " There is not 
enough in this whole thing to bring it before the Presbytery" ? 

A. That was not the language ; I was sorry it came before 
the Presbytery, that was my language, and I am yet. 

Q. Did you use the words : " There is not enough in this 
whole thing to bring it before the Presbytery " ? A. Not those 
words. 

Q. Or words to that effect ? A. No, sir ; not to that effect 
— that there is nothing. 

Q. Didn't you, in this room last week, .^ay several things 
to a gentleman by the name of B. F. Wells ? A. I recollect 

B. F. Wells ; I think I was speaking to him. 

Q. You deny saying those things ? A. Those exact 
words. 

Q. Or to that effect ? A/ Or words to that effect. 

Q. Turning now to the letter of Dr. Talmage to you, dated 
October 9th, 1876, I want to ask you one or two questions ; 
mark my question now, when did you receive this letter ? A. 
I think I received it that night, late in the day ; I did not re- 
ceive it first hand ; I did not receive it quite as soon as I got to 
the office. 



228 



Q. Was it received before jour interview with him that 
clay ? A. It was received the next day ; my interview was 
Monday night ; it was received Tuesday, the day after. 

Q. And when Dr. Tannage, in that letter, said to you : " in 
case you purchase it " that phrase occurred naturally, giving 
you the idea that he did not understand that you had pur- 
chased it, or was so informed by you, did you correct his mind 
by informing him that you had purchased it ? A. I do not 
know that it met my eye, that phrase. 

Q. What was in the letter? A. It might have been, but 
only one fact in the letter struck me ; he refused to come. 

Q. You do not undertake to say that your mind and eye 
were not brought in contact with those words ? A. My mind 
was not given to anything except the one fact": " I have left 
you, Mr. Hallock." 

Q. Coming now to the letter of Dr. Talmage, dated August 
24th, 1877, to you, I want to ask you this general question, 
were you, in the interview with Dr. Talmage, at any time 
made aware of the circumstances under which he wrote tbat 
letter, about a year afterwards ? A. Was I made aware of 
the circumstances under which he wrote the letter of August 
24 th, 1877? 

Q. Yes. A. No sir, I do not know that I was. 
Q. Did he explain that to you in the interview ? A. 1 do 
not recollect. 

Q. Don't you know anything about it ? A. No, sir, not to 
my recollection. 

Q. Were you the bearer of a proposition to Mr. Remington, 
sent after Dr. Talmage's retirement from the Christian at 
Work, to the following effect : that Mr. Eemington might select 
any five evangelical ministers he pleased as arbitrators to con- 
sider the facts of that retirement, and that he, Talmage, would 
justify his action to every one of them, or, failing to do so, make 
such an apology and reparation as they should direct ? A. I 
was not asked to bear any such message as that ; I was not 
asked to bear any message. 

Q. You did not bear any message at all ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you at any time say to Dr. Talmage that there was 
nothing in his action in retiring from the Christian at Work 
that you could condemn ? A. No, sir. 



229 



Q. You said no such thing ? A. No, sir ; you may misun- 
derstand that ; so far as the old company is concerned, I did 
not engage in that quarrel with the old company ; there may 
have been fault on both sides there, but so far as I am con- 
cerned personally in that. I should say no, sir. 

Q. So far as the occasion related to you ? I never said it 
was all right ; no, sir. 

Q. If you had bought the paper on the 7th of October, 1876, 
and the relation of the Christian at Work Company would 
have terminated, was Dr. Talmage's retirement from the 
paper any injury to the Christian at Work Company ? A. 
That is a matter of opinion ; I do not think I ought to be 
made to answer that ; it is a matter of ""opinion, and I don't 
choose to answer it. 
By Mr. Eockwell : . 

Q. Did the Christian at Work Company publish anything 
but the Christian at Work? A. Yes. sir; they published some 
small papers. 

Q. Were you in the Tabernacle Church on the 2d of Feb- 
ruary, 18 ?9? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you hear the statement which Dr. Talmage made 
then ? A. I did ; yes, sir. 

Q. In regard to what ? A. Why, in regard to a certain tel- 
egram from John F. Talmage. 

Q. Never mind that ; what else ? A. And in regard to a 
statement of the papers. 

Q. Very well ; now, give me, with the most perfect exact- 
ness you can attain, the precise statement of Dr. Talmage in 
regard to what the papers said? A. I cannot give the exact 
language ; I would rather not be asked to do it. 

Q. Was it something like this : That all the papers say 
that he was about to be tried by the Presbytery of Brooklyn 
for heresy or unsound doctrines ; was it something like that ? 
A. That was the idea. 

Q. And that what the papers say must be true ? A. I re- 
collect that. 

Q. Did you regard that language as falling from the lips of 
Dr. Talmage, and under those circumstances as a serious, posi- 
tive declaration that he thought he was to be tried for unsound- 



230 

hess of view, or was it a sarcasm ; was it in its form and man- 
lier apparently a sarcasm ? A. I should think it was a sar- 
casm ; what all the papers say must be true ; rather. 

Q. You understood it as a sarcasm ? A. Let us think for a 
minute ; I should think that was a sarcasm. 

Q. The whole statement was a sarcasm ? A. That one sen- 
tence, that what all the papers say must be true, was, because 
we know very well that what all the papers say is not likely to 
be true. 

Q. Did you understand it or not as being a playful sarcasm 
— what else he said ? A. I did not think it was anything very 
serious. 

Mr. Millard — There are only a couple of questions that I 
want to ask you. A. I am not tired at all. 

The counsel here reads to the witness the statement that 
occurs in his testimony beginning as follows : " Better be non- 
committal in your conversations with Eemington ; do not tell 
him what other paper we might absorb in our new project or 
how much capital ;" and ending with the phrase, " he said sev- 
eral, and the idea w^as as if we had other parties back of us." 

Q. It w^as to that that I wanted to call your attention ; did 
you mean to say yesterday that Dr. Talmage wanted you to 
give an idea that you had other parties behind you when you 
had not ? A. It was rather an exaggeration of things generally. 

Q. The idea I want to get is this : did you understand Mr. 
Remington then as wanting you to misrepresent A. (In- 

terrupting.) Mr. Talmage you mean. 

Q. Yes, as misrepresenting the ground you stood upon ? 
A. I did not think it was anything very serious ; I thought he 
wanted to make it appear very large. 

Q. Better than it was ? A. Better in that sense. 

Q. Did you think he meant to have you say anything un- 
truthful about it ; anything in it untruthful about it ? A. Put 
it in as favorable a light as possible. 

Q. Did you mean that it was his idea to make it out a grand 
thing ? A. Yes, sir ; that is the idea. 

Q. Was your idea that he intended to have you state any 
thing beyond control in any respect ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And yet after that did you want him to be editor of a 



231 



Christian paper ? A. I have just explained that it was an 
exaggeration ; I did not think it was anything so wonderfully 
serious, it was an exaggeration. 

Q. You did not think there was anything there that would 
qualify him to be a good editor of a Christian paper ? A. I 
do not know that I did. 

Q. In this interview that took place in Mr. Corwin's house 
did I understand you to say that that proposition to take their 
mail list and. send it to their subscribers, and take the good 
will of their paper without paying anything for it, made no 
unfavorable impression on you as regards Dr. Talmage's 
character ? A. It did as to his judgment very much. 

Q. Did you think there was no spark of dishonor about it? 
A. At the time I do not think that I did. 

Q. Do you now ? , A. I will not give an opinion upon it, sir. 

Q. At the time though, it made no unfavorable impression 
upon you ? A. As to his honesty or character at that time, I 
do not know that it did ; I did not know whether he knew any 
better at that time ; that is the sense that I used the word 
know. 

Q. As to the mail list that you thought Dr. Talmage must 
have furnished, what advantage would it have been to Mr. 
Talmage to have the Advance get the mail list ; how would that 
have advantaged Dr. Talmage ? A. That is so very evident. 

Q. Was he an owner or interested in their profits? A. Very 
much interested in having their paper circulate. 

Q. He would get his salary ? A. I do not know that he 
worked under a salary ; I do not know but he worked on a 
commission. 
Redirect : 

By Mr. Crosby : I should like you to take these statements 
which you have declared here, that you have said were false 
in that article, and just state as briefly and concisely as you 
can each one again and why it is false ? 

(Handing to witness the article in the Advance containing a 
statement of what Dr. Talmage said from the pulpit of the 
Tabernacle, October 15, 1876.) 

A. After speaking on the fact that he has changed his 
newspaper relations, which I will not read, "he says "this is 
no sudden change ; " that is false. 



232 



Q. On what ground do you say that it is false ? A. Because 
it was a sudden change ; it was a very sudden change indeed ; 
certainly I did not expect it and those in the office did not 
know it ; it was not known to any one, except his friend Cobb 
that I know of ; he says " last Monday I found that the 
Christian at Work had been surreptitiously sold " — that is 
the second — " without my knowledge " — that is a third false 
statement-—" and sold to a publisher of a Unitarian paper"— 
that is the fourth falsehood, although Dr. Talmage may not 
have known at the time ; but it was not sold to the publisher 
of a Unitarian paper in point of fact ; more than a year before 
that time, namely, November 1, 1875, my name was taken off 
of the Liberal Christian. 

Q. Did you have anything to do with the Liberal Christian 
after that ? A. Yes, sir ; my name was taken off at that time, 
with the view in my mind, if possible, to make some other con- 
nection, and this very connection I had in my mind at the 
time. 

Q. But suppose it had been true ? A. I am not through 
with this yet. 

Q. I say in reference to that thing you have been talking 
about — that surreptitious sale, I mean the sale to the publisher 
of a Unitarian paper. A. Even if it had been true it would 
have conveyed a false impression, because it would have con- 
veyed the impression which it was intended to convey, it seems 
to me — the impression that the Christian at Work was about to 
give its influence to the Unitarians, than which nothing could 
have been more false; all of which Dr. Talmage very well 
knew from my own convictions long before that, and extend- 
ing during a long period of time, and as he himself shows in 
the letter which is here in evidence, dated August 8, 1875. 

Q. What is the next false statement? A. I would like to 
say in reference to it that I did not believe exactly at that time 
— I would like to explain that here. 

Q. Does it bear right on this point ? A. Bight exactly on 
this point ; I sent my resignation ; I did not leave exactly at 
that time, but I asked to leave ; but Dr. Bellows wanted me to 
come on and I sent my final resignation — though my name 
was not on there before that — to the Liberal Christian about 



233 



the 1st of April 1876, giving thirty days notice as a final thing, 
and my relations terminated as publisher of that paper on May 
1, 1876, and my salary terminated at that time. 

Q. What is the next statement? A. "After that surrep- 
titious act;" that I consider is false — a double false state- 
ment. 

Q. I want to recall you again to that conversation at Major 
Corwin's house, and ask you a question or two about it ; you 
said in your evidence yesterday, " Dr. Talmage took me by the 
arm and piloted me to Major Corwin's ; I did not know where 
he lived then ; he introduced me to him and we passed into 
the room back of the parlor, I think it was, and there we sat 
down to have a conversation ; Dr. Talmage asked me if I could 
get out an edition of the Christian at Work on my own type, 
without any appearance of stoppage until we could furnish the 
paper to all the subscribers ; " now the conversation was re- 
sumed ; here we have it all connected ; he says, " Can you get 
out an edition of the Christian at Work on your own type, so 
that you can furnish all the subscribers without any appear- 
ance of the stoppage of the paper at the regular time? " had 
he then said anything to you about the Christian at Work? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Then when he asked you if you could get out an edition 
of the Christian at Work on your own type so that you could 
furnish all the subscribers, without any appearance of the 
stoppage of the paper, at the regular time, did you have the 
idea of the stoppage of the Christian at Work suggested there ? 
A. Not at all ; that word did not convey that idea then to me, 
though I think the work break was used. 

Q. When he first introduced the conversation with that re- 
mark, " Can you get out an edition of the Christian Work on 
your own type ? " did you take the idea that he meant a new 
paper ? A. No, I do not know that I did then. 

Q. When did that idea arise? A. When he commenced 
talking about the Christian Work; he said, "now I will tell 
you my plan ; " that is when the idea came into my mind. 

Q. I will ask you whether I ever saw you to your knowl- 
edge, and you ever saw me to your knowledge, before the com- 
mittee of five were appointed — the first introduction of this 
30 



234 



subject on the 3d of February ? A. I never saw you that I 
know of before this subject came up. 

Q. Did we ever have any communication together on the 
subject? A. Before that? I think not ; if I never saw you it 
is not likely that I talked very much with you. 

Q. Can you state what you have heard about dropping the 
word " at" ? A. I think I heard something about that ; I think 
I have heard Mr. Hawley speak something about it ; I don't 
recollect what. 

Q. Now, the counsel on the other side asked you what words 
you had used to Dr. Talmage in that interview in the Park on 
Fridaj^, September 6th, when you had said to him, " I am 
about to purchase the paper,'' or " I am seriously thinking of 
purchasing the paper," and you answered that they conveyed 
about the same idea ; might you not have used both expres- 
sions ? A. I do not think I used both ; I would not have been 
very likely to have ; the words " seriously thinking" — I hardly 
think I used those words ; I think I said " about" ; " seriously 
thinking" does not convey much difference to me of the way I 
should think ; " at the time seriously thinking of closing this 
bargain." 

Q. It is not impossible that you used both words ? A. It is 
not impossible. 

Q. At the Astor House conference, did you tell Dr. Talmage 
of your own accord that you had bought the paper— I meant 
of your own motion ? A. Yes, sir ; I think he asked me first. 

Q. State again, as nearly as you can recollect, what passed 
between you at the Astor House ? A. He asked me if I had 
purchased the paper ; I replied yes, and I put before him that 
paper already drawn for his signature, and he said : " If you 
had placed this before me one week ago, Hallock, I would 
have signed it at once ; as it is, I will give you an answer to- 
morrow morning" ; that is after he read it through ; he appeared 
quite pleased, and I supposed he was going to sign it. 

Q. You were asked whether you knew positively, of your 
own knowledge, that the advertisement was inserted by Dr 
Talmage, and about the presses running all night, and you 
answered very properly, and then you were asked, " you know 
it only by rumor — — A. (Interrupting) No ; that is not the 



235 



way I know it ; in the first place, then, I think it 
was written by Dr. Talrnage, from the very nature of the ad- 
vertisement itself ; the same way that I can often tell a child 
that I never saw before to what family it belongs. 

Mr. Crosby — The witness is now represented as having said 
that he knew of it simply by rumor ; I do not ask him what 
the source of his, knowledge was ; but is it true that you simply 
knew it by rumor ; I want you to say whether you had good 
and sufficient reasons in your own mind ? A. Oh, yes ; as I 
thought I had good and sufficient reasons. 

Dr. Spear — As you supposed ? k. It seemed to me that I 
had good and sufficient reasons. 

Q. Did that contract, which you and Mr. Remington signed 
on Saturday, contain any provision for Mr. Bright, the man- 
aging editor? A. No, sir; no provision for anything except 
the contract and sale of that ; that is all. 

Q. Was there any understanding between you in regard to 
the officers of the company or the officers of the paper — the 
editors"? A. "Well, there was a general understanding on my 
part that everything was to go right along ; that was in my 
own mind ; I don't know how much I might have arranged with 
this one or that one ; there was not much arrangement any 
way ; I intended to keep things right along, only to reduce the 
force in the office. 

Q. Mr. Remington expected you would? A Oh ! yes, and 
told me so. 

Q. Please explain fully what you said about saying all you 
had to say inside of thirty minutes ? A. I meant that I could 
make the case plain, that I could explain all that I had to say 
in thirty minutes ; and I think I could have done it too, if I 
had been asked to give a simple statement to the Presbytery ; 
and if I had been given thirty minutes in which to have done 
it, I would have conveyed to your minds all that I have got to 
say in better shape than I have done it, instead of taking two 
days — if you had let me alone. 

Q. What did you say to Mr. Wells about the slight misun- 
derstanding ? A. To Mr. B. F. Wells about there being a slight 
misunderstanding there; I do not know the meaning of that. 

Dr. Spear — Give him the whole sentence (reads), " I can say 



236 

all I have to say inside of thirty minutes," that is the first ; the 
next is, " there is nothing in this whole thing but a slight miss- 
nnderstancling ;" did you use such words ? A. No, sir; " noth- 
ing in this whole thing " — not given with the impression, I 
never gave that impression intentionally. 

Q. What did you say in that regard ? A. I spoke a good 
deal longer than that — told a good deal more than that ; the 
impression that I conveyed or intended to convey was that I 
had nothing to say or did not intend to say anything against 
Mr. B. K. Corwin, and that I had no ill-will whatever, as I 
have not from the bottom of my heart, toward Dr. Talmage ; I 
do not know how I conveyed it ; I have not the least ill-will 
toward him ; I think he has made mistakes. 

Q. Did you convey the impression that it was a slight mis- 
understanding between you and Dr. Talmage? A. No, sir ; it 
did not seem to me to be a slight misunderstanding ; I might 
have used those words. 

Dr. Speak — He said next : " What little I have got to say 
won't hurt Mr. Talmage or Mr. Corwin;" I think you explained 
it before ; explain it again ; did you say, what little you had to 
say would not hurt Dr. Talmage ? A. I do not think I used 
that. 

Q. Speak out, and state what you remember exactly about 
it ? A. Will you read those words again ? 
(The sentence is again read.) 

The Witness — No, sir ; I never used those words with that 
meaning; I did not want to injure either one of them —either Dr. 
Talmage or Major Corwin, I did not mean to give the idea — 
I do not mean if every one of you have got this thing up for 
jealousy ; I don't care anything about it at all; I do not myself 
have the least feeling of ill-will or jealousy toward Dr. Talmage; 
it was not rankling or ill-will or feeling, at all, and never has 
been ; I think he has done me a great wrong, and have felt so, 
and do yet. 

Dr. Spear — Do you want the next sentence ? 

Mr. Crosby — Yes ; give it to us. 

Dr. Spear — " I did expect to have Dr. Talmage come with 
me, and for a day or two I felt hurt ? " A. That is strictly 
true, but I don't think I said the sentence. 



237 

Dr. Spear — Shall I read the next sentence ? 
Mr. Crosby — Yes, sir. 

Dr. Spear — " There is not enough in this whole thing to 
bring it before the Presbytery." 

The Witness — That gives a wrong idea ; I did express myself 
as sorry that this thing had come before the Presbytery; I am 
heartily sorry yet ; I wish the thing had not come up ; I did not 
want to come here ; but having come, I done what I believed 
before God to be my duty ; I did not want to do it, and 
when I was subpoenaed for the papers I utterly refused at first 
to come ; the papers were subpoenaed from me — the papers I 
have in my pocket here ; I was obliged to give them up ; that 
is the first step. 

Q. What was the general drift of the whole conversation with 
Mr. Wells ? A. I recollect Mr. Wells sat down there (point- 
ing), and turned over to speak to me, and the general drift is 
pretty much as I gave it with regard to the subject. 

Q. Did you intend or do you believe now that you used any 
words giving the expression of Mr. Wells that you considered 
that there was nothing in this affair between you and Dr. Tal- 
mage ? A. No, sir ; no such impression that I intended to 
convey. 

Q. You are perfectly certain ? A. Why I know I did not. 

Q. If Mr. Wells did so he is mistaken? A. He is mistaken ; 
he has got the wrong impression, that is all. 

Mr. Millard — When was your name taken off from the 
Liberal Christian ? A. My name was taken off from the 
Liberal Christian on the 1st of November, 1875. 

Q. What was the character of that paper? A. It was a 
Unitarian paper published by Dr. Bellows. 

Q. Have you been in the habit of representing yourself as 
being a Unitarian ? A. I have not, sir. 

Q. Had you never had to say to Dr. Putnam ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You have said just now, in answer to the question, that 
one of the falsehoods was that what Dr. Talmage said gave 
an impression that you might carry this paper over to the 
Unitarians ? A. Yes, sir ; that certainly gave me the impres- 
sion. 

Q. But you had, from being an orthodox Christian, been 



238 



making money by publishing a Unitarian paper ? A. Very 
little money we made out of that. 

Q. You had been trying to make money? A. Very little 
money ; I published that paper the same as an orthodox car- 
penter would build a house for a Unitarian. 

Q. You considered it the same thing ? A. I considered it 
the same way. 

Q. How long were you connected with the Liberal Christian ? 
A. Quite a good while, sir ; quite a good while. 

Q. If you had, while holding orthodox sentiments, been put- 
ting out a Unitarian paper A. (interrupting) I did not put 

it out ; I simply did the printing. 

Q. You were interested in it? A. Simply the printing; 
that is all. 

Q. Did you solicit any subscriptions for it ? A. No, sir ; 
never in my life ; I do not think I ever asked anybody. 

Q. All you had to do about it was the printing ? A. I did 
not say that. 

Q. What else ? A. "Whatever the duties of a publisher are ; 
it came first in the office of Thomas Miller, while I was pub- 
lishing books and he was publishing it, and he said I cannot 
attend to this and wish you would take it, and so I naturally 
fell into it. 

Q. There was never a contract with the design of making 
money by publishing Unitarian sentiments? A. I did not 
take the contract. 

Q. Never mind ; now, was it an unreasonable thing that Dr. 
Talmage should think that you would do that thing again, hav- 
ing done it once ? A. Yes, it was ; it was a real unreasonable 
thiug, for I had explained that thing all over to him. 

Q. You have suggested that one of the falsehoods was that 
he said that this change was no sudden one ; do you know 
that he had not been thinking for a long time about it? A. I 
said the change was an immediate sudden one ; it was a 
bounce. 

Q. Sudden on his part ; didn't he mean by that that he had 
been thinking of it for a long time? A. No, sir ; I did not 
take it in that way ; if that was his meaning then it was (lif- 
erent. 



'239 



Q. Wouldn't the words bear that construction? A. Pos- 
sibly ; I do not know how you construe words. 

Q. Noav as to his saying that it is surreptitious ; you say 
you had been carrying on those negotiations with Mr. Reming- 
ton for a week or more ? A. No ; I did not say so. 

Q. You suggest it for example ? A. (Interrupting). I 

suggested a good many methods. 

Q. You have stated in your statements, then, that you had 
not seen Dr. Talmage for a long time beforehand ? A. I don't 
think we had. 

Q. This thing had been going on, and you had not said a 
word to Dr. Talmage ? A. During the summer months ; there 
was a long vacation. 

Q. And all this time you had not said a word ? A. I told 
him, the day before, that it was coming to an end ; if he was 
an honest man, he ought to have told me at that time. 

Q. That was the only time ? A. That was the only time for 
some time before. 

Q. Suppose Dr. Talmage had found out that you had been 
negotiating this thing for a long time with Mr. Remington ; 
you had not whispered it to him down to two or three days 

before the thing sprung upon him ? A. (Interrupting.) It 

was not sprung upon him at all ; I told him the day before- 
hand. 

Q. I say if he had not a whisper up to that time — you had 
not told him, and Remington had not — wouldn't he have been 
justified in saying that it was a surreptitious thing? A. He 
agreed to go with me as editor, and I the publisher ? No, sir ; 
no, sir. 

Q. Hadn't he some interest in knowing if you were likely to 
come to terms ? A. Then he could have written to me and 
found it all out. 

Q. If he mistrusted it, wouldn't he have been justified in 
saying that you and Remington having done that, that it was a 
surreptitious thing? A. I don't think he would have been justi- 
fied in saying it at all. 

Q. You said it was a false one, his saying that it was sold to 
the publisher of a Unitarian paper ? A. I explained it fully. 

Q. If yon were just at that moment the publisher of a Uni- 



240 



tarian paper, wouldn't it then be proper ? A. No, sir ; espe- 
cially as he knew I was an evangelical man, and not publish it 
all over and draw subscribers away to the Advance. 

Q. How loug had you been a publisher at that time? A. I 
cannot tell ; a good many years. 

Q, Having been publisher of a Unitarian paper for a 
good many years, wouldn't that have justified him in saying 
it ? A. Not a bit ; he ought to have stayed at this : " He is 
an evangelical man, and everything is all straight." 

Q. Now about that word " stoppage ;" tell the Presbytery, if 
you please ; you say it might occur ? A. Oh, yes, sir. 

Q. I ask }'ou if it did not refer to the stoppage of the Chris- 
tian at Work', that was your understanding of it? A. No ; I 
understood it just this — could you, within a week, endeavor to 
get out a paper. 

Q. What did you think the word " stoppage" referred to? 
A. In that sense — I have used the word " stoppage," and I told 
you I thought he used the word " break." 

Q. I want you to tell what you meant by that word " stop- 
page ?" A. You must give me the connection, 

Q. That in that conversation he asked you, in case of the 
stoppage of the Christian at Work, whether you could get out 
a paper in a week ; now what do I mean by that word " stop- 
page ?" The stoppage of what ? A. My idea was if I could 
within a week's notice get out the paper, so that it would 
furnish the subscribers their paper at the proper time. 

Q. What was to stop ? they couldn't stop a new paper ? A. 
So that I could furnish the subscribers their paper without 
having half the subscription list get some papers one week, 
and half get it the next week. 

Q. That is what you understood by the word break? A. I 
do not know that I have explained that right ; my idea was 
so that they would not be furnished the paper at the proper 
time. 

Q. You say you did say to Mr. Wells that you had nothing 
to say against Major Corwin, did you ? A. That I didn't in- 
tend to say anything on this floor against Major Corwin ; I do 
not think I have. 

Q. Did you tell him that you hadn't anything to say against 



241 



Major Corwin ? A. That I was not going to say anything ; 
that I had not anything to bring against Major Corwin. 

Q. You mean that you have not anything in your own 
mind? A. That my testimony was not going to be against 
Major Corwin. 

Q. That you didn't have anything against him ? A. I did 
not mean to say whether he was or was not all right. 

Q. But you are not going to tell it "? A. I did not mean to 
say that, but my testimony was not going to be in regard to 
that. 

Q. You say you refused to come here ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you obliged to come ? A. No, sir, except by my 
own prompting of duty. 

Q. You refused and you altered your mind ? A. Yes, sir. 

Dr. Van Dyke — Have you ever talked with any of the 
members of this Presbytery besides Mr. Crosby and Mr. 
McCullagh on the subject? A. No, sir ; I don't think that I 
have. 

Q. How long have you known me personally ? A. I do not 
know you very well now. 

Q. How long since you first spoke to me? A. Only a few 
days. 

Q. How many days ? did you ever speak to me before the 
beginning of this trial ? A. I know I never knew you ; I do 
not think I have spoken to you but a few times during this 
trial. 

Mr. Millaed — Was it about testimony that you talked with 
him ? A. I asked him to put on my overcoat once. 

Dr. Van Dyke — Have I ever said a word to you about your 
testimony ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Has any member of the Presbytery talked to you about 
the testimony that you were going to give ? A No, sir. 

Mr. Foote — I just wish to ask the question if Dr. Talmage 
stated to you, on Monda}^, October 9th, in his interview with 
you, that he had written his valedictory of the Christian at 
Work ; did he state that to you on Monday, the 9th ? A. I 
reckon not ; it wouldn't have got in if he had. 

Mr. McClelland — Did the sudden departure from the 
31 



paper affect your health at all at that time ? A. Affect my 
health ? it made me pretty lively for a while. 

Dr. Yan Dyke - Did you have any reason in your mind on 
the 9th of October, at the Astor House, when Dr. Talmage 
refused or declined to sign that contract at that time ? did you 
have any reason in your mind why you supposed he declined ? 
A. No ; oh, no ; nothing ; why I was puzzled, I did not know 
what. 

Q. Did you have any surmise as to what might be the rea- 
son ? A. I do not know that I did ; this idea came to me that 
possibly Dr. Talmage wanted me to pay him more ; that he 
wanted $3 ; 000 instead of $^,000 ; I could not hardly believe 
it, and it seemed to me that it was not it ; but that surmise 
came. 

Dr. Spear — At what time was this interview on October 
9th ? A. About noon. 

Q. How long did it last ? A. A trifle a little while. 

Mr. Crosby — Did Dr. Talmage tell you at that interview on 
Octobei 9th, or at the interview on October 6th, that he had 
written his resignation to Mr. Remington ? A. Did he tell 
me on either of those days ? 

Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 

Q. Did he ever tell you that he had written his resignation 
to Mr. Remington ? A. Not on those days ; that he had writ- 
ten his resignation ? 

Q. Yes. A. No, sir ; never heard anything about it at all. 

Mr. Millard — Can you think of any reason why Dr. Tal- 
mage should put that phrase into the letter, "in case you 
purchase," if he and you knew that was not true ? A. I can 
think of lots of reasons ; I could take all night to give them 
to you. 

Q. Give one? A. I do not think it is necessary tp give 
reasons. 

Q. You cannot give any ? A. I can give some. 

Q. Do you decline to give any ? A. Yes, I decline that. 

(Signed) J. N. HALLOCK. 
At the close of Mr. Hallock's examination, Presbytery ad- 
journed. 

J. MILTON GREENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



'243 

April 4th, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 4th, at 3 p. M. 

Mr. Thos. E. PearsoHl was called, and being duly sworn, tes- 
tified as follows : 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Please state your business ? A. I am a lawyer. 

Q. Where ? A. In this City. 

Q. Have you resided in Brooklyn long ? A. All my life. 

Q. Were you ever connected with the Tabernacle Presbyte- 
rian Church ? A. I was, as a Trustee and a pew holder. 

Q. Were you in the Tabernacle on the 15th of October, 
1876 ? A. I was. 

Q. Did you hear Dr. Talmage give a notice about the 
Christian at Work ? A. I did. 

Q. Please state, as near as you can, the exact language you 
heard ? A. He said, from the platform, that his connection 
with the Christian at Work had ceased, I think, on the 9th of 
October ; that on account of the paper having been surrep- 
titiously sold to a Unitarian publisher, without his knowledge, 
that it was expected that he would go with the sale of the 
paper, but that he was a part of the goods they could not 
deliver. 

Q. . Do you remember anything further about that notice ? 
A. Not now, I do not. 

Q. That is, in substance, the notice as you heard it ? A* 
Yes, sir ; there was a great deal more, but that is the sub- 
stance of what I remember. 

Q. What was your official position in the tabernacle ? A. I 
was a member of the Board of Trustees and a member of the 
Pew Committee. 

Q. To come down to specification third ; for how long were 
you a member of the Pew Committee? A. I think eight 
years. 

Q. What was your plan as a member of the Pew Commit- 
tee, for assigning seats ; just describe it fully ? A. Well, you 
mean my plan ? 

Q. Yes; sir; I mean the plan you pursued as Pew Commit- 
tee ? A. My plan was, I had a price fixed on about every pew, 
and I assigned them according to the price ; that was my 
plan. 



244 



Q. Did you have a diagram of the church? A. I had. 

Q. Was that your individual plan ? A. No, that belonged 
to the church, made up by the Board of Trustees. 

Q. This diagram you are speaking of? A. The diagram ; 
that gave the inside of the church, of the pews, &c. 

Q. What was there in this diagram ; just the seats ; just the 
plan of the church ? A. First, when we moved from the old 
church into the iron church then the pews were free ; any per- 
son who applied for a pew, was assigned one, but after we had 
been there for a year or two we found out that did not pay, 
and I then began fixing a price on the pews. 

Q. About this diagram ; did you have the price of the pews 
marked on that diagram ? A. Well, we made up a diagram 
after the last church was built, and on all the permanent pews 
in the church there was an amount written on it in lead 
pencil. 

Q. What has become of that diagram ? A. The last I saw 
of it was in the possession of the Board of the church ; Board 
of Trustees. 

Q. You emphasized "my;" you said this was your plan; 
was it your plan alone, or were the other officers of the church 
cognizant of it ? A. They all knew it. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage know that you were managing the pews 
in this way ! A. He did. 

Q. How do you know he did? A. I told him so. 

Q. More than once ? A. Often. 

Q. Was any one else present at any of these conversations ? 
A. I know of I think two or three times when Mr. Sillcocks 
was present. 

Q. Any one else that you remember? A. Mr. Eollhaus ; he 
is dead now. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage ever see this diagram with the amounts 
on it ? A. I think he did at the time we assigned the pews in 
February, 1878. 

Q. You have spoken of conversations about this manner of 
assigning the seats with Dr. Talmage ; do you remember any 
specific conversation in regard to this matter ? A. I would 
of ien speak to him about it ; I would say " now, Dominie, 
most every Sunday you announce that the pews are free with- 



245 



out reference to the dollar question ; our own audience knows 
that it is a humbug, and they just laugh at you ; " now I said 
" why not rent the pews square out ? another year has rolled 
around, and let us rent the pews ; we can get more out of them 
by that ; " I said in substance that to him several times, but he 
would reply " you know my pet [idea is to run a free church," 
"yes," I said, " but you are not running a free church; you 
know that ;" that is about the substance, and then he would 
say " that when it is known that this] is not run as a free 
church I will leave it." 

Q. That was the substance of the different conversations ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember any special conversation at your own 
house ? A. He called once to see me to ask me to join the 
church ; he said he had thought of it often, and he had made 
up his mind he would call in that night ; I said " Dominie I 
cannot join the church because if I do join," — I said " Dominie, 
I cannot join the church, I am not good enough," " Oh," he 
says, " you are a great deal better than many other men we 
have got in the Tabernacle ; " Oh, I says, " I know that Dom- 
inie ; but nevertheless I am not good enough to join ; because, 
if I should join the church I could not stay on the Pew Com- 
mittee, and assign the pews in the way I am assigning them." 

Q. What did he say to that? A. He laughed and thought 
it was funny. 

Q. Did he tell you to stop assigning the pews in that way ; 
renting the pews ? A. No, sir. 

If Q- While you were renting the pews in this way, and after 
you had informed Dr. Talmage of it, did you ever hear him 
give any notice on the subject from the pulpit ? A. I did. 

Q. State the substance of that notice as you remember it ? 
A. He w^ould say, " The pews in this church are assigned with- 
out reference to the dollar question ; any person wanting a 
pew will apply to the pew committee on such an evening ;" at 
other times he would say, adding to what I already said, 
"any person desiring a pew will get as good a pew in this 
church for a dollar as though they paid a hundred dollars." 

Q. Was that notice repeated ? A. Often. 

Q. Did you ever speak with Mr. Talmage about that no- 
tice? A. Often. 



'246 



Q. State what passed between you on that subject ? A. 
Well, I would say, " I wish you would stop giving out the no- 
tice ; you announce to the people that they can get as good a 
pew for a dollar as for a hundred dollars, and they call on me, 
and I have to spend a great deal of time with them, explain- 
ing away all that you have to say," and I would say, "You 
know I would let no one have a pew only solely in reference 
to the dollar question." 

Q. Did he continue to give the notice that the pews were 
assigned without reference to the dollar question after that? 
A. He did, until the Board, as a body almost, went to him and 
begged of him to leave that off. 

Q. Now, come to the fourth specification ; do you know I. 
W. Hathaway? A. I do. 

Q. Was he in the Tabernacle Church when you were con- 
nected with it ? A. He was. 

Q. What was his position ? A. I think he was — oh, first he 
was employed to rent th^ pews one year there; I think after 
that he became an elder, or was an elder at that time ; I do 
not remember which. 

Q. Do you remember any other position that he held ? A. 
Well, he was employed to see the congregation and make ar- 
rangements for the re-renting or re-hiring of the pews for one 
year. 

Q. When was that ? A. I think it was in 1876 ; I won't be 
sure of the year ; I think 1876. 

Q. By whom was he employed ? A. By the Board of Trus- 
tees. 

Q. At whose request was he employed? A. First, Mr. Cor- 
win suggested it ; I think Mr. Talmage knew all about it. 

Q. What were his duties, now, so far as you knew them, you 
being a member of the Board of Trustees, and he being em- 
ployed by the Board of Trustees to do this work ? A. His 
duties were to see — well, first we gave him a list of the pew hold- 
ers, and the amount they were then paying, and a diagram w as 
made up of the amounts he should make them pay, and he 
was to go around, see them, and get them to pay the amount 
named on the diagram. 

Q. These were his instructions from the Board of Trustees? 
A. From the Board of Trustees. 



247 



Q. How did he discharge his duties? A. Very faithfully ; 
he caused the pewholders to raise the amount of their sub- 
scriptions. 

Q. What effect did this have upon his relations with the 
people ? A. Those that he made raise did not like him ; and 
it caused considerable talk in the church. 

Q. But he was acting under your instructions, you say ? A 
Under the instructions of the Board of Trustees. 

Q. Was he, as far as you know, thoroughly honest ? A. 
He was. 

Q. Was there any complaint in the Board of Trustees of his 
management of the finances? A. Never ; only now and then a 
man would complain of his raising the amount oi his pew 
rent. 

Q. That is, he discharged his duties too faithfully ? A. For 
the church. 

Q. We now come to Specification Five ; were you present 
in the City Court on the 1 2th of January, 1879? A. I was. 

Q. What case was going on? A. The case of Gelston 
against the Tabernacle. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage testify as a witness ? A. He did. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage shown these papers (handing papers to 
witness) ? A. He was. 

Q. What did he testify concerning them ? A. He was first 
shown the long telegram . 

Q. Tho.se are telegrams, are they ? A. He was shown them 
both, and also the answers at the bottom ; one at the bottom, 
and the o!her on the other side. 

Q. AVhat did he testify concerning them? A. He was asked 
if he sent those two telegrams ; he answered he did. 

Q. He was asked if he sent the answers, or rather if he re- 
ceived those answers? A. He said as to the one — the short 
telegram— the answer to that — that he received it, and the 
answer was correct; as to the long telegram, he thought apart 
of the substance of it was correct — the reply. 

Mr. Crosby — I offer these in evidence, and read them : 

" Brooklyn, New York, 

"January 30, 1878. 

" To John F. Talmage, Eutaw House : 

" Whole community agitated about foreclosure ; fever for 



248 



" debt removal high. If your house will subscribe five thous- 
" and, and Mr. Hobbs the same, three others will do the same, 
" and the thing is done. If you cannot, the matter will not be 
"undertaken. It is to-night or never; nothing, unless all 
" debt, Church and College. For the Lord's sake, say yes. 
" Telegraph, me immediately. 

"T. De WITT TALMAGE." 

(Marked Plaintiff's Exhibit A, April 4, 1879.) 

Q. This answer, you say, he did not testify to as being 
right ? A. Yes, sir ; that is the one, he could not say whether 
this was right or not. (Handed paper to counsel.) 

Q. We won't put that in ; the second telegram is dated Jan- 
uary 30, 1878 (reading) : — 
"John F. Talmage, Eutaw House : 

" Will you and Mr. Hobbs allow me to pledge you each for 
" five thousand dollars, provided I make up to each of you, 
"privately, the difference between your subscriptions and five 
" thousand dollars ? Telegraph immediately. 

" T. De WITT TALMAGE." 
— and this, you say, is the answer to that ? A. That is the 
answer. 

(Marked " Plaintiff's Exhibit B, April 14.) 

Q. Do you remember any one else who was present and 
heard this testimony ? A. Mr. Sillcocks, John F. Talmage* 
Mr. Pearson, and a number of others. 

Q. Specification Sixth: Did you see' Mr. Talmage at his 
house, in March, 1878, at any time ? A. I did. 

Q. Can you fix the dale ? A. No ; I cannot name the date, 

Q. What evening in the week was it ? A. That I cannot 
say. 

Q. How did you come to go there ? A. That I do not know ; 
I got there. 

Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Talmage. A. I 
did. 

Q. What was it about ? A. It was in reference to articles which 
had appeared in the Eagle, in reference to my writing a letter 
refusing Mr. Morgan the use of the church for a concert ; I 
said to Mr. Talmage, " you asked me not to let Mr. Morgan 
have the church," or words to that effect; I wrote to Mr. 



249 



Morgan that he could not have it, or to Mrs. Morgan ; giving 
as a reason that the church or trie Trustees had passed a re- 
solution refusing to hire out the church for the concert ; now, 
I said, " having clone that we are abused in the Eagle every 
" night, because we refuse to let Mr. Morgan have the church ; 
" now you ought to make a statement to the congregation, and 
" set us right in this matter ;" he says, " yes, I will, on next 
" Sunday I will make a statement to the congregation explain- 
" ing the whole thing to them." 

Q. Are you sure he said he^would make a statement to the 
congregation ? A. Positive. 

Q. Who was present at that interview? A. Mr. Sillcocks ; 
Mr. Pearson. 

Q. What further occurred? A. There was a meeting of the 
elders in his house, and he asked us if we would not meet with 
the elders ; we said that we were but a few from the board, 
and did not care to meet with the elders, as they had insisted 
on the right to appoint the organist or words to that effect ; he 
said he would go up stairs and talk with the elders, and finally 
it was arranged and we all met ; then the resolution was offered, 
in refereuce to Mr. Morgan ; it was talked that his year would 
expire, I think, on the first of May, and that after the first of 
May we hire another organist ; so that a resolution was offered 
there to the effect that after Mr. Morgan's year expired, that 
an organist be appointed in his place ; we moved to amend, on 
the ground that they might reappoint Mr. Morgan, so we in- 
serted in the resolution that another organist be appointed 
and it was carried. 

Q. By what vote was it carried? A. As I understand it 
unanimously, except Mr, Talmage before the vote was put, said 
he would like to have Mr. Morgan, but I do not understand 
that he voted against the resolution or had anything after that 
to say. 

Q. Were the gentlemen you mentioned a little while ago 
present at this? A. They were. 

Q. Who were there ? A. Mr. Sillcocks, Mr. Pearson ; and 
also Mr. Elmore, the Trustee, and a number of elders ; about 
all the elders I should think. 

Q. Do you remenber that the form of that resolution was, 
32' 



250 



that the session should be requested to appoint another or- 
ganist ? A. I think it was that way. 

Q. It m ay have been so ? A. Yes, sir ; the session af ter 
Mr. Corwin went into it, claimed the right to appoint the or- 
ganist and it Avas new to us ; when he was in the Board of 
Trustees there he claimed the right to appoint the organist, 
and of course we gave him the right. 

Q. You say a number of the members of the session were 
there ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did they vote for this request ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That another organist should be appointed? A. Ap- 
pointed in the place of Mr. Morgan. 

Q. They all voted for it? A. Yes, sir ; and it was discussed, 
the reasons why another organist should be appointed. 

Q. Were you in church the next Sunday ? A. That I do 
not know ; I Avas aAvay one or tAvo Sundays after that. 

Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Talmage give any notice about 
Mr. Morgan? A. Well, I have been trying to study that out, 
Avhether I Avas there, or whether I read it in the paper ; I Avas 
aAvay one or tAvo Sundays, I think ; I think it Avas two Sundays 
in the month of March, 1878, but I am unable to fix the two 
Sundays I Avas aAvay ; I know one Sunday I Avas away, but the 
other I am unable to name. 

Q. You cannot positively state that you heard any notice ? 
A. No, sir ; but I read it in the paper anyhoAv. 

Q. Was Mr. Morgan retained as organist or dismissed ? A. 
That I — I have never been in the church since. 

Q. Were you ever made aware, before Sunday, March 81, of 
what the session had determined on in regard to that ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. So far as you knoAv, were any of the Trustees made aware 
of it? A. No, sir ; we believed it Avas finally settled that night 
that Mr. Morgan should go ; should not remain as organist 
after May of that year. 

(No cross-examination.) 

THOS. E. PEARSALL. 

At the close of Mr. Pearsall's examination, Mr. I. W. Hath- 
away was called, and being duly sworn, testified as follows : 



251 



By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. What is your avocation ? A. I am a minister of the 
Gospel. 

Q. Where do you reside ? A. In Jersey City. 

Q. When did you first connect yourself with the Taber- 
nacle ? A. In the spring of 1872. 

Q. Were you ever connected with the Sabbath-school ? A. 
Yes. sir. 

Q. Did you ever occupy any official position in the Church ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Mention one ? A. The first official position I ever held 
there was the presidency of the Young People's Association, 
to which I was elected in the fall of 1873. 

Q. Did you ever occupy any other official position? A. 
Yes, in the spring of 1874 ; an elder. 

Q. Were you ever employed by the trustees to give your 
time and services to the Tabernacle, for which you were to re- 
ceive a compensation ? A. Yes, sir ; I was employed by them 
in the autumn of 1874. 

Q. Is that an official document belonging to the trustees 
put in your hands ? (Handing witness a paper.) A. It is an 
official document belonging to me from the Board of Trustees. 

Mr. McCullagh — I offer this in evidence. It is as follows : 

<• New York, Feb. 15, 1875. 

" I. W. Hathaway : 

" Dear Sir, — -At a meeting of the Board of Trustees, held 
February 15th inst., the following resolution was adopted : 

" ' Resolved, That the ushers in the Tabernacle, whether 
trustees or not, be notified that all negotiations for subscrip- 
tions or for assignments of sittings, be left entirely to Mr. I. 
W. Hathaway, Assistant Secretary, 298 Schermerhorn street, 
whose duty it is to attend to that business exclusively. Appli- 
cation for sittings will be received by the ushers, but are to be 
immediately handed by them to either Mr. Hathaway or to 
any member of the Board of Trustees.' 

« Yery truly yours, 

" FREDERICK BAKER, 

" Secretary." 

(Marked " Plaintiff s Exhibit C, April 4, 1879.") 



252 



Q. What, if anything, beside the attending to rent and. as- 
signment of pews, were you to do ? A. I was to visit the con- 
gregation both in a financial and spiritual capacity as an elder ; 
to visit the sick, officiate at funerals, and have charge of their 
financial agency. 

Q. Did you ever perform any marriage ceremonies ? A. No, 
sir ; I did not. 

Q. Why not? A. Because I was not an ordained minister. 

Q. Explain the plan of the trustees for assigning the pews ; 
the plan which you, as their agent and acting under their in- 
struction, carried out ; explain it fully ? A. Well, sir, as I 
said, I was employed in the autumn of 187 -> ; I did not begin 
my duties regularly until the 1st of January, 1875 ; the time of 
the reassignment of pews was February 1st ; prior to that time, 
I had placed in my hands by the Board of Trustees a diagram 
of the church, with the price marked in every pew ; my instruc- 
tions from the board were to get the price therein marked ; as 
much more as I could get, and not to take less without report- 
ing it to them ; the first of February we sent out circulars to 
the members of the congregation to call at my house ; I would 
send a certain number of circulars for a certain number to call 
at one day and I would see them ; other circulars were sent to 
others to call the following day, and so on until all had been 
seen ; my duty was when they came in to induce them by 
bringing to bear upon them every influence that I possibly 
could in pleading the needs of the church, their duty, their 
moral obligation, and so on, to subscribe all that they could, 
which I did, and which they did; that was in relation to the 
reassignment of the regular attendants of the church ; now, is 
that what you had reference to ? 

Q. Yes ; I had reference to renting or the assignment of pews, 
either by' those who were making new applications or by those 
whose terms had expired and who were about to re-occupy it 
for another year ? A. Well, sir, I have described in relation to 
the old applicants ; the new applicants w r ho applied for sittings 
likewise came to my house, as it was announced from the pul- 
pit every Sabbath for probably eighteen months, that all per- 
sons wishing consultation in regard to sittings in the church, 
would apply to I. W. Hathaway, 289 Schermerhorn street, at 



253 



such and such clays and hours ; they would come to my house, 
and my instructions from the Board of Trustees was that I was 
to ascertain how much they would pay before I assigned them 
a sitting, which I always did, and I assigned them a sitting in 
that portion of the house apportionate to their ability to pay, 
according to the diagram which I had in my hand. 

Q. Have you ever heard Dr. Talmage announce from his 
pulpit that the pews in the Tabernacle were assigned without 
regard to the dollar question ? A. Oh, yes, sir. 

Q. Did he frequently make such anouncements ? A. He 
formerly made those announcements very frequently, but lat- 
terly he made them more seldom. 

Q. Did he ever confer with you on this subject ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Did you make known to him your method of assigning 
pews ? A. Well, I met with the Board of Trustees to report 
and confer with them, and on some occasions Mr. Talmage 
was present ; he sometimes called at my house and sometimes 
called at the church, where I, part of the time, had my office, 
and in a general way I conferred with him ; I know that the 
trustees were pleading with him constantly to give up his 
plan and adopt theirs; I, as an employee, did not feel it en- 
cumbent upon me to make myself prominent in that direc- 
tion. 

Q. Did he ever to you object to your method of assigning 
the pews, or express any disapprobation in regard to it ? A. 
He would not yield to the solicitations of the trustees to come 
out and rent the pews ; he always stood out against their 
arguments for that. 

Q. Did you ever hear this subject talked about in Dr. Tal- 
mage's presence ? A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Frequently? A. I cannot say frequently; I do not 
know what you would imply by that word exactly. 

Q. Often ? A. Several times. 

Q. Is that the form of application for a pew in the Taber- 
nacle ; was it the form (handing a paper to the witness) ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Whose writing is that attached to the bottom of it ? A. 
That is Mr. Corwin's. 

Q. You will swear to that ? A. Yes, sir. 



254 



Q. All these are Mr. Cor wins and a great many more, I 
suppose ? A. Yes, sir ; Mr. Corwin's penciling on the bottom. 

(Mr. McCullagh offers one of these in evidence and reads it 
as follows :) 

" [Form of Application.] For the re-assignment of pews in 
the Brooklyn Tabernacle ; Kev. T. DeWitt Talmage. D. D., 
Pastor ; Mr. I. W. Hathaway, Assistant Secretary. Sir, — The 
undersigned wishes to secure for the year commencing Febru- 
ary 1st, 1875, all sittings in pew 147, and hereby agrees to pay 
for the support of the gospel thirty dollars ($7.50) payable in 
quarterly instalments. Name : A. C. DeMerritt. Residence : 
316 Livingston street. 1 ' 

(Marked "Plaintiff's Exhibit D.— April 4, 1879.") 

Q. Attached to this in pencil writing is : " It cannot be 
granted for thirty dollars in justice to the treasury of the 
church. It must bring $100 or more. By Mr. Corwin." A. 
Allow me to state that I reported this to the Board of 
Trustees at our meeting, and they would pass upon them, and 
Mr. Corwin, as President, made these memoranda. 

Mr. McCullagh : All these facts had the same and similar 
purport. I will read another, one or two : 

"Mr. I. W. Hathaway, Assistant Secretary : Sir, — The un- 
" dersigned wishes to secure for the year commencing Febru- 
" ary 1st, 1875, all sittings in pew 24, and hereby agrees to 
" pay for the support of the gospel twenty-five dollars, ($6.25) 
" payable in quarterly instalments. Name : F. Lottridge. 
" Residence : 381 Atlantic avenue. 

" Not approved. Assign to some other pew.*' 

(Marked " Plaintiff's Exhibit D. — April 4, 1879.") 

That is what is in here : 

" The undersigned wishes to secure of you, commencing Feb- 
ruary 1st, 1875, sittings in pew 1 71, and hereby agrees to pay 
for the support of the gospel, $25,, payable in one instal- 
ment. Leonard Moody, 25 Bergen street." 

And attached is this : 

" Not granted. See him. Will pay more." 
(Marked " Plaintiff's Exhibit F.— April 4, 1879.") 
And one more : 

" The uudersigned wishes to secure of you, commencing 



255 



February 1st, 1875, sittings in pew 67, and hereby agrees to 
pay for the support of the gospel $45, payable in quarterly 
instalments. Wm. Ten Eyck. Besiclence, 223 Dean street." 
Then in pencil : 

" Application not granted. The Treasurer needs more 
money." 

(Marked "Plaintiffs Exhibit G.— April -i, 1879.") 
The writing on all these is the same. 

Q. Was it customary for you to notify the Trustees in re- 
gard to these, and take their direction? A. Always. 

Q. Did you ever, with the knowledge and sanction of the 
Trustees, or by their instruction, notify any parties who occu- 
pied pews that if they did not pay more than they were then 
paying, they must give up their pews and take less desirable 
seats ; it is a long question ; I will repeat it if you wish ? A. 
No, sir ; I think I have got it ; I cannot say that I was told to 
order any one out of their pews in so many words. 

Q. Did you ever bring such an influence to bear upon them 
as to make them give up their pews? A. Yes, sir ; frequently^ 
or several times at least. 

Q. Give us all there is about that ; were you instructed to 
do that ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By whom ? A. By the Board of Trustees ; from Mr. 
Cor win chiefly I got my orders ; through him chiefly. 

Q. What official position did Mr. Corwin then occupy ? A. 
President of the Board. 

Q. Can you recollect the names of any other persons who 
would not or could not pay the amount which the Trustees 
had fixed as the rent of the pew which they occupied and con- 
sequently they vacated it ? A. I recollect that this Mr. Lot- 
tridge, whose name you have read here this afternoon, was re- 
moved from down stairs ; he had a pew inside of the circular 
aisle, and not being able to pay as much as the Trustees 
thought he ought to pay, as you see by the application, he re- 
moved his seat into the gallery ; I remember we had quite a 
time trying to make Captain Latham pay more ; I do not know 
whether we were successful or not ; I think he gave up his 
pew for a time and then took it again. 

Q. The names of any other parties or persons? A. There 



256 



in 

nes 



was a party living in Gold street ; I had my old pew book 
my pocket there ; I could refresh my memory from the names 
if I had it. 

Q. Yes, we would be glad ; I suppose the counsel has no 
objection (the book is handed to witness). A. Here is the 
name that I was endeavoring to remember, " H. W. Gurley 
lie lived at 414 Gold street ; he offered to pay $40 ; I know 
there was some correspondence in relation to the subject ; he 
was very much incensed and gave up the pew. 

Q. Any other ? A. Here is another name on the same page 
that I notice, " L. S. Wittemore, 24 St. Marks Place or Ave- 
nue ;" I think they gave up their pew ; I won't be positive 
about Mr. Gurley' s ; yes, he gave up his pew and Mr. Witte- 
more gave up his pew. 

Q. Have you any facts before your mind to convince you 
that Dr. Talmage knew of this last named pew ; what would 
lead yon to suppose it must have been a fact of wdiich he was 
fully cognizant ? A. In relation to this last named ? 

Q. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Millard — What was the name? A. Wittemore ; I think 
Mr. Wittemore is a brother of Mrs. Talmage ; I remember that 
'it caused considerable talk in the Board, and I felt very deli- 
cate about obeying the instructions of the Board, because, of 
the relationship existing between this party and Dr. Talmage, 
and this is the fact that makes it fresh in my memory above 
other persons, and therefore I called at Dr. T aim age's house 
and saw Mrs. Talmage in relation to it, saying that it was a 
delicate matter, and that I did not wish to crowd them, and I 
had been instructed ; Mrs. Talmage, I remember, remarked to 
me that they must not expect any favors on account of the re- 
lationship, and in order to help the matter of raising the price 
or getting more money out of the pews, Mrs. Talmage, herself, 
very kindly consented to relinquish her pew on the ground 
floor and go into the gallery, which she did. 

Q. Then, as a matter of fact, did Dr. Talmage know of the 
regulations for renting pews ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did he, with a knowledge of such regulations, announce 
from the pulpit, that the pews were assigned without regard to 
the dollar question? A. Well, sir, I think he made that an- 
nouncement very seldom about this time. 



257 



Q. Did he make it at all? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long were you an active member of the session and 
in attendance at its meetings ? A. I was elected a member of 
the session in the spring of 1874, soon alter going into the 
new church, and I remained a member of the session until after 
I left the city ; I was very regular. 

Q. We pass to the fourth Specification ; when did you make 
the acquaintance of Dr. Yan Dyke ? A. A few weeks prior to 
the General Assembly that was held in Brooklyn in the Tab- 
ernacle. 

Q. In what year ? A. 1876. 

Q. What season of the ynar ? A. What was the date of the 
assembly ? 

Q. It ordinarily meets in May — the third Thursday in May? 
A. Then I should say I made the acquaintance of Dr. Van 
Dyke the latter part of April that year. 

Q. Did you ever seek his advice on any question ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. State what subject ? A. I was thrown into the society 
of Dr. Yan Dyke by being a member of the committee of ar- 
rangements for the General Assembly, and after the Assembly 
closed I sought Dr. Yan Dyke to advise with him in relation 
to a preparation for the ministry ; I called at his study ; I told 
him that I had been 

Q. Did you take any counsel with Dr. Talmage on the same 
subject? A. Yes, sir ; I spoke to him about it. 

Q. Did Dr. Yan Dyke give you a letter of introduction to the 
Professors at Princeton when you went there ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you got that letter ? A. Dr. Yan Dyke's ? I have 
not got it with me ; it may be among my papers. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage give you a letter to the Professors at 
Princeton ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is that the letter ? (handing letter to witness.) A. It is. 

Mr. McCullagh offers the letter in evidence and reads it as 
follows : 

"Brooklyn, July 26th, 1876. 
" To the Professors of Princeton Theological Seminary. 
" Dear Brethren — I commend to you Mr. I. W. Hathaway 
" who is a member of my church and an elder. He is worthy 
33 



258 



"of our confidence. He has proved himself useful and 
" efficient in almost every department of Christian service. 
" He comes to you with the prayers and best wishes of all 
" my congregation to seek preparation for the Gospel ministry, 

" T. De WITT TALMAGE, 
"Pastor of Brooklyn Tabernacle." 

(Marked " Plaintiff's Exhibit H, April 4th, Lb79.") 

Q. At the meetings of the Sabbath School at which Dr. T d- 
mage spoke in your favor, when about leaving Brooklyn for 
Princeton, what action was taken ? A. That was the last 
Sabbath in June, 1876 ; it had been decided that I was to go 
to Princeton ; Dr. Talmage came to the Sabbath School and 
there spoke to a resolution which was offered by Mr. Freeman 
to the effect that I was to have a subscription from the Sab- 
bath School of $ 300 a year for two years to aid me in taking 
my Theological course. 

Q. Of that one thousand dollars or $500 a year for two years, 
how much did you. actually receive ? A. I should say prior 
to that time that the resolution was passed and the subscrip- 
tion made that I received just about $300 of it ; I do not know 
the exact amount, but it is very near $300. 

Q. After your removal to Princeton did you still retain your 
position as President of the Young People's Association in the 
Tabernacle ? A. Yes, sir ; and also all the offices that I held 
in tlia church except this one of the Trustees. 

Q. Hacl you any communication with Dr. Talmage in regard 
to the speakers for the anniversary? A. Ye 3, sir; I spoke to 
him about getting Dr. Hodge to come down and speak, which 
he approved of and told me to bring Dr. Hodge immediately 
to his house and take tea and stay all night; I found that I 
could not procure Dr. Hodge, that he was unable to come ; I 
then wrote to Dr. Talmage, asking him to invite some one else, 
and I suggested that he invite Dr. Hall to come and speak, 
thinking that Dr. Hall would heed his invitation more than he 
would mine. 

Q. Did you receive that letter from Mr. Talmage at that time 
in response to your suggestion that he invite Dr. Hall ? (letter 
handed to witness.) A. I did. 

Q. Is that Dr. Talmage's letter? A. It is. 



259 



Q. What has become of the autograph ? A. There was a 
young gentleman in Princeton that wanted the autograph and 
I tore it off for him. 

(Mr. McCullagh reads the letter in evidence as follows : 
" Dear Mr. Hathaway — The last letter I wrote Dr. Hall he 
" answered insolently, and so I cannot write him again. I am 
" sorry that I cannot be home on anniversary night. Have 
" made two engagements taking me into Massachusetts not 
" knowing that the 11th October was the time,'' etc. 

(Marked " Plaintiff's Exhibit I, April 4, 1879.") 

Q. Did you write to Dr. Talmage about your connection 
with the sessii.n during your residence in Princeton, and if so, 
did he answer ? A. I wrote to Dr. Talmage in response to a 
letter which I received from the clerk of the session ; I replied 
to the clerk of the session and also to Dr. Talmage in response 
to this letter which I received from Mr. Freeman. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage answer you ? A. He did not on that 
subject. 

Q. Did you receive any reply to that letter to Dr. Talmage 
relative to this subject ? A. I think that after the second let- 
ter of mine, I received a letter from Mrs. Talmage written for 
her husband in relation to it. 

Q. Is that the letter (handing letter to witness) ? A. This is 
written, I suppose as his letter. 

Q. Is that the letter which you received from Mrs. Tal- 
mage? A. Yes, sir. 

The letter is read in evidence, and reads as follows : 

"1 S. Oxford street. 

Mr. Hathaway : 

Dear Sir, — Mr. Talmage desires me to say that no unkind- 
ness towards you is intended by the session as they enter- 
tain only the kindest feelings towards you. But they wish 
to fill up their ranks with a working force, and, therefore, 
they put some one in your place that will be on hand. I 
trust you will trust there is no personal feeling in this matter. 
Give my love to the dear little wife and all the babies. With 
kind wishes for yourself, and hopes that all your aspirations 
may be realized. Your friend, 

September 26, 1876." MES. TALMAGE. 

(Marked " Plaintiff's Exhibit K, April 4, 1879.") 



260 



Q. Can you date this other letter ; it was forgotten to be 
dated, Mr. Hathaway (Exhibit I) ? A. The only way I can 
date this letter is knowing it was written a short time prior to 
this anniversary. 

Q. When did it occur ? A. The regular^night was the 11th 
of October, and I think lhat was the night ; there was some 
talk of changing the night, but whether it was changed I don't 
remember. 

Q. It was near about the 1st of October ? A. It was about 
the 1st of October ; along in the fore part of October, 1876. 

Q. After that did you visit Brooklyn and have an interview 
with Dr. Talmage ; after the anniversary of the young 
People's Association? A. The first time I visited Brooklyn 
after the anniversary was the last of December, 1876 ; my wife 
came with me ; we came into Brooklyn on Friday ; the last 
Friday of December. 

Q. Had you an interview with Dr. Talmage? A. I had an 
interview with Dr. Talmage before I left the city. 

Q. When and where ? A. I had an interview with Dr. Tal- 
mage at his house on Tuesday evening, the 2d of January ; I 
think the 1st of January was Monday ; if it was, it was the 
2d of January. 

Q. What was said, if anything, by him to you about the 
Tabernacle in that interview ? A. Well, sir, I had a specific 
purpose in calling on Dr. Talmage at that time ; it was more 
than simply an ordinary call. 

Q. Will you state all the circumstances connected with that 
interview, and the substance of your conversation, just as fully 
as you can remember, and the substance of your conversation 
with Dr. Talmage on that occasion? A. To do that I will 
have to tell you what caused me to go there ; I attended the 
Sabbath school on the Sabbath day prior to that, where I had 
been assistant superintendent, and where I had a large Bible 
class ; and it was review day ; they had no regular lessons 
that day. 

Q. Go on? A. I was not pleased with my treatment in the 
Sabbath school that day, although I said nothing about it ; I 
went to Dr. Talmage, as my pastor, to get an explanation of 
that; I asked him what it meant; I alluded to Mr. Corwin, 



2G1 

who was the superintendent of the school ; he replied that 
Dr. Van Dyke had written an article that was published in 
The Presbyterian, of Philadelphia, that reflected upon the 
Tabernacle, and that in an interview which he had had with 
Dr. Van Dyke, Dr. Van Dyke stated that I had given him 
the data for that article ; I indignantly denied it ; Dr. Tal- 
mage said, " Well, Dr. Van Dyke says that you gave him the 
data for that article, and this has caused some feeling against 
yon ; and this no doubt is the foundation of the treatment of 
which you have just complained, and you had best go and see 
Major Cor win about it ; " I indignantly denied to Mr. Tal- 
mage having given any information to Dr. Van Dyke in rela- 
tion to the Tabernacle or any of its secrets, or anything about 
it ; I invited Dr. Talmage then to go with me and see Dr. Van 
Dyke, which he refused to do, and said that Dr. Van Dyke 
would probably not give us any satisfaction, and we would be 
no better off by seeing him ; he (Dr. Talmage) treated me 
very kindly, and told me I had best see Mr. Gorwin and ex- 
plain it to him. 

Q. Where did Dr. Talmage say that that interview between 
Dr. Van Dyke and himself took place ; and state all the cir- 
cumstances connected with that interview as fully as you can ? 
A. Well, sir ; he said that Dr. Van Dyke called at his house 
to see him in relation to this article which he had written, and 
that he didn't care to see him, and that he would not have 
seen him had his wife, Mrs. Talmage, been cognizant of the 
fact that it was Dr. Van Dyke that wanted to see him, or if 
she had been at home, or something of that kind ; but he said 
that his daughter, not understanding the situation, had called 
him down, and that he did see him. 

Q. Where did he say that interview between Dr. Van Dyke 
and himself took place ? A. In his parlor, I suppose ; he 
called him down, he said ; I suppose in the parlor. 

Q. You said you denied to Dr. Talmage having communi- 
. cated any data to Dr. Van Dyke ; what did Dr. Talmage then 
say ? A. Dr. Talmage then said, " Dr. Van Dyke says you 
did." 

Q. How did that interview between Dr. Talmage and you 
end? A. It ended by my going away to see Mr. Corwin ; I 
felt that I had been greatly wronged. 



Q. Will you tell us what the result of that was; what you 
did to be relieved from the injury you felt you were laboring 
under? A. I told Dr. Talmage I should come before the 
session on Friday evening and demand satisfaction ; which he 
said would be eminently proper. 

Q. Did you meet the session on the following Friday even- 
ing ? A. I did. 

Q. State all the circumstances, so far as you can recollect 
at that meeting and interview ? A. Well, sir, I remember 
that we had a meeting that night in the opposite side of the 
church from the place where it was usually held ; it was in the 
east room instead of the west room, and I went before 
the session and complained of this treatment, or of these 
rumors — not rumors, but this — that Dr. Yan Dyke had said 
that I had given away the Tabernacle, so to speak, and then 
and there denied it ; I also complained of the treatment of 
which I had spoken to Dr. Talmage in the interview which I 
had with him ; there came .out in response to my complaint, 
remarks from several parties ; several members of the session 
spoke. 

Q. State as well as you can remember who spoke ? A. In 
the first place, I think Mr. McKelway spoke ; he spoke very 
flatteringly of me, eulogized me in language which I would 
not care to repeat ; Mr. Corwin spoke very nicely at first, and 
then when I made the complaint — referred to the complaint I 
had made to Dr. Talmage — then he didn't speak as kindly, 
but it all ended with simply a little talk over the matter, and 
Mr. Talmage advised me to think nothing more about it ; to 
go back to Princeton to attend to my studies, and there was 
nothing worth speaking of, and that is the way it broke up. 

Q. What did yon do then? A. I remained after that, and began 
to talk with Mr. Talmage privately ; they all went away except 
Mr. McKelway ; he lingered ; then there was left Mr. Talmage, 
myself, and Mr. McKelway ; and there had been in that meet- 
ing, I think, a reference to some man, a gentleman whom Mr. 
Corwin advised me to bring before the session ; I told Mr. 
Talmage that I had no quarrel with that man or any other 
man in the congregation, that I had no quarrel with anybody, 
that I thought if I had a quarrel with anybody it would be 
with Mr. Corwin. 



263 



Q. Was there anything else that occurred at that interview 
that yon can recall? A. Well, there was some further con- 
versation. 

Q. Give us the substance of it, with Dr. Talinage? A. I 

don't knew whether it is ; I spoke to Mr. Talmage about 

Mr. Corwin. 

Q. When did you visit Dr. Van Dyke ? A. I visited Dr. 
Van Dyke the next morning — Saturday morning. 

Q. What was the purpose of your visiting Dr. Van Dyke the 
next morning? A. Dr. Talmage told me that Dr. Van Dyke 
said I had given him data for that article ; I was very indig- 
dant at Dr. Van Dyke for having told Dr. Talmage anything 
of the kind, and Dr. Talmage having refused to go with me to 
Dr. Van Dyke I went myself on Saturday morning and I indig- 
nantly charged Dr. Van Dyke in his study, with having 

A. (Continuing ;) I said that Dr. Talmage told me that Dr. 
Van Dyke said that I had given him the material for this 
article, which I indignantly denied, and Dr. Talmage having 
refused to go with me to Dr. Van Dyke on Saturday morning 
I went alone, and charged Dr. Van Dyke 

Q. Was this visit made to Dr. Van Dyke at your request ? 
A. I went myself, I didn't request anybody. 

Q. Give us the substance of that ? A. I went Saturday 
morning after this meeting of the session, and saw Dr. Van 
Dyke ; I was very indignant toward him : I asked him if he 
had told Dr. Talmage that I had been guilty of revealing to 
him the secrets of the Tabernacle, and thus giving away that 
which belonged to me as confidential man in the Tabernacle, 
doing that which was dishonorable ; and he said, " No, sir, I 
never did tell Dr. Talmage so ; " says I, " Dr. Talmage says 
you did tell him so, and told him I gave you the data for this 
article, that you have written in the Presbyterian;" Dr. Van 
Dyke jumped out of his chair, and says, "I never told Dr. Tal- 
mage so ; but now, Mr. Hathaway, T will tell you what Dr. Tal- 
mage said to me ; Dr. Talmage came into this study and 
charged me with having published that wdiich was untrue in 
relation to the Tabernacle, and I told him I had my authority 
from officers of the Tabernacle, and he says, £ who,' and 
among them, for he named others, he named Mr. Hathaway; 



264 



and Dr. Talmage then says, " that Hathaway is a man you can 
place no confidence in ; he is untrustworthy in every respect ? 
and is a defaulter of the funds of the Tabernacle Church ; " 
this is what Dr. Yan Dyke told me ; had he struck me with a 
club, had he knocked me down, I should not have been more 
dumbfounded ; I said, " what shall I do, it is false, every word 
of it, and I can prove it ; Dr. Yan Dyke, says, " Sir, I will not 
give you any advice ; the courts of the Church are open to 
you, if you wish to use them ; but you are a member of the 
Seminary at Priuceton ; you had best go there for your advice J 
I took the train that day for Princeton ; I advised with Dr. 
Green and Dr. McGill ; Dr. McGill told me I should return im- 
mediately to Brooklyn and have the matter settled ; I came 
back on Monday to New York, saw the trustees of the Church 
Monday night. 

Q. Which one of the trustees'? A. I called on John F. 
Talmage, and he convened quite a number of trustees in his 
office to talk the matter over ; that was Monday evening ; on 
Tuesday morning I went to see Dr. Talmage ; Tuesday morn- 
ing I went to see Dr. Talmage alone, and I met him in his 
back parlor ; I said to him, "Dr. Talmage, what does this 
mean that Dr. Yan Dyke has told me ; Dr. Yan Dyke says that 
you have told him that I was untrustworthy and that I had 
proved a default*, r in the finances of the Tabernacle ?" when I 
reached the word defaulter, Mr. Talmage immediately denied 
having used that word, and said that was not a word that 
belonged to his vocabulary, and he immediately branched off 
into a diatribe against Dr. Yan Dyke. 

Q. What did he say ; give us his language as well as you can 
recollect it ? A. Well, sir, I cannot tell what he said then ; he 
simply said that Dr. Yan Dyke had misinterpreted and had not 
reported to me correctly' what he said. 

Q. Did he say anything else ? A. Afterwards he did. 

Q. Well, go on? A. I then demanded of Dr. Talmage that 
he go with me to see Dr. Yan Dyke and face this matter with 
him ; Dr. Talmage positively refused to go with me, but says I, 
" Dr. Talmage, you must go with me or I will bring this matter 
before the Presbytery ;" Dr. Talmage said, " I will not go with 
you, I don't want to see Dr. Yan Dyke until the judgment 
day." 



265 



Q. Was there anything else ? A. I then told Dr. Talmage 
that I should bring this matter before the Presbytery, and 
then he pleaded with me for some fifteen minutes, perhaps, 
not to do it, that it would be a very unwise thing for me to 
do. 

Q. Why did he not want to see Dr. Yan Dyke until the 
judgment day ? A. I cannot tell you. 

Q. Well, go on. A. I told him that I should bring it before 
the Presbytery unless he went with me to Dr. Yan Dyke and 
had it settled ; that I could not rest under such a charge, and 
would not rest under such a charge except he would go with 
me to Dr. Yan Dyke and have it settled ; he pleaded with me 
not to do it ; I told him I should do it ; " now," he says, 
" Hathaway I believe you ; I know you are a truthful man ; I 
never knew you to tell an untruth, and Dr. Yan Dyke is a 
notorious liar ;" I told him again that he must go with me, and 
he said would not ; " then," I says, " I will bring this matter 
before the Presbytery ; " says he, " Hathaway you cannot 
afford it, you cannot afford it, let me tell you that; 
if you undertake it we will turn on you and kill you ;" I left 
him ; I went as straight and as quick as my feet could carry 
me to Dr. Yan Dyke ; well, do you want me to go on ? 

Q. Just let me get that point exhausted before we pass over 
it ; when Dr. Talmage said, " we will get men to kill you," or 
that phrase, whom did you understand him to mean by that ? 
A. I am glad you refresh my memory there ; I replied to Dr. 
Talmage, "I defy you, you may go to the day of my birth and 
you may rake every day up to the present day, and I defy you 
to get anything against my moral character;" Dr. Talmage's 
reply was, " whether we can or not there are men," or " we 
will find men" — I don't know which he said — " that will swear 
there is," and he said " we will turn on you and kill you ;" I 
didn't know but he meant those that were associated with him 
in the Tabernacle ; those that he could get to do that kind of 
work, I suppose he meant. 

Q. Was ever this matter brought to the attention of the 
Presbytery ; you told Dr. Talmage in your interview with him 
that you would bring this matter before the Presbytery, and 
you say he pleaded with you not ; was ever this matter brought 
34 



before the Presbytery ? A. No, sir ; I went immediately from 
Dr. Talmage's house to Dr. Van Dyke's study, in order to tell 
Dr. Van Dyke just what I had said to Dr. Talmage, because I 
did not want to get between the upper and nether millstone of 
Dr. Van Dyke and Dr. Talmage, and so I went to his study and 
found him in. 

Q. Did you go immediately from Dr. Talmage's house ? A. 
Immediately, with just as fast walking as I was capable of ; I 
had not been in Dr. Van Dyke's study relating the matter to 
him more than three to five minutes before Dr. Talmage came 
in ; seeing me there, he would have withdrawn, but Dr. Van 
Dyke says, " Come in, come in, the Lord sent you," or some- 
thing of that kind ; Dr. Talmage came in and we three were 
together ; Dr. Van Dyke then and there says to Dr. Talmage, 
" You came into my study here and told me thus and so about 
Mr. Hathaway ; " when he came to the word defaulter, Mr. 
Talmage again, in Dr. Van Dyke's study, denied having used 
the word defaulter, and said it was not a word in his vocabu- 
lary ; I don't remember that he denied much more, but turned 
to me and says, " Mr. Hathaway, you and I have always been 
friends ; we might as well be friends still ; " I said, " Yes, we 
have always been friends, and I am very much surprised at 
hearing this ; it depends, sir, upon you whether we are friends 
still or not ; " then he says, " Come out with me " 

Q. Before you get to that point — when Dr. Talmage told 
Dr. Van Dyke that he had not used the word defaulter, that 
that was a word which was not in his vocabulary, what did Dr. 
Van Dyke say ? A. Well, he said it was something that con- 
veyed the same idea : " If you didn't use the word defaulter, 
you used words that conveyed the same fact to my mind." 

Q. When Dr. Talmage characterized Dr. Van Dyke as a 
notorious liar, a man whom he did not want to see until the 
judgment day, did he appear to be excited ? A. Very much 
so ; yes, sir. 

Q. At the close of that interview in Dr. Van Dyke's study 
between Dr. Van Dyke, Dr. Talmage and yourself, what did 
Dr. Talmage say to you ? A. He asked me to go out with 
him. 

Q. Why ? A. To settle it ; he asked me when we came 



267 



down stairs, to go with him and see Major Corwin, and said, 
" We will have it fixed up in five minutes." 
Q. Did you go ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Why didn't you go ? A. Because I didn't care to put 
myself in the hands of Mr. Corwin ; I would not go without 
witnesses. 

Q. Did you go back to Dr. Yan Dyke's study when you and 
Dr. Talma ge parted ? A. Oh, I think I went back to get my 
umbrella, or something of the kind I left there. 

Q. With what understandiDg did you and Dr. Talmage sepa- 
rate? You mentioned that he called you out of Dr. Yan 
Dyke's study into the vestibule ; when you refused to go with 
Dr. Talmage to Mr. Corwin, with what understanding did you 
separate ? A. Dr. Talmage asked me to go with him to Mr. 
Corwin's several times ; I refused every time, and he then 
asked me if I would remain until the Friday night session 
meeting, as he must go immediately to the country to lecture ; 
he had lecture engagements that called him out of the city 
that day, and he would not be home until Friday night ; I 
promised him I would remain until Friday night. 

Q. Did you remain until Friday evening? A. I did. 

Q. Were you at the sessional meeting on that occasion ? A. 
I was. 

Q. Will you tell the substance of what occurred at that ses- 
sional meeting? A. After that session meeting had convened 
and regularly opened, there might have been some little busi- 
ness transacted, I stated in the presence of all there what Dr. 
Yan Dyke had said that Dr. Talmage had said. 

Q. Can you recall who were there ? A. Nearly all of them. 

Q. Mention the names as far as you can recollect? A. Mr. 
Talmage was there ; Mr. Pearson was there ; Mr. McKelway, 
Mr. Shelly, Mr. Cobb, Mr. Cogswell, Mr. Collins, Mr. Hall, I 
think, and Mr. Nichols ; there might have been others. 

Q. Will you state the substance of what occurred ? A. I 
stated there just what Dr. Yan Dyke had said Dr. Talmage 
had told him, and demanded a retraction — demanded a settle- 
ment ; I demanded that they should give a full retraction, and 
that "Sir. Talmage should read it from the platform; after some 
little talk, and offering of resolutions and amendments of re- 



268 



solutions, and so on, they finally adopted a resolution which I 
agreed to accept as a final settlement of the matter, and they 
passed that resolution unanimously and gave me — Mr. Free- 
man did the next day — an official copy of it, and I agreed to 
take it as a final settement of it, which I did. 

Q. Is that a copy which you received (handing paper to 
witness) ? A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. McCullagh offers the resolution in evidence, and reads 
it as follows : 

"Friday evening, January 12th, 1877. 
" The Session met at. the Session Eoon at the close of the 
church prayer meeting, and it was opened with prayer by 
Elder Corwin. The following members were present : Rev- 
Dr. Talmage, and Elders Cobb, Cogswell, Collins, Corwin, 
Freeman, Hall, Jones, McKelway, Morris, Nichols, Pearson, 
Shelly, and Yoorhees. The following resolution was offered : 
Mr. I. TV. Hathaway having brought before the Session some 
personal matters, after a general discussion, he having signified 
his willingness to acquiesce in and accept the following minute 
and resolution, they were adopted : Mr. I. W. Hathaway 
having appeared before us, complaining of having been slan- 
dered by reports in circulation concerning him, and that such 
reports have arisen from constructions put upon inadvertent 
remarks made by members of this church, and the whole mat- 
ter having been inquired into and satisfactorily explained : 
Therefore, Resolved, That we, the Session of this Church, 
hereby express our continued confidence in Mr. Hathaway's 
Christian character, and declare that we are satisfied that any 
and all charges which may have been floating in the community 
affecting his moral character are false and slanderous. This 
resolution being passed by the Session and accepted by Mr 
Hathaway as a final and satisfactory adjustment of the whole 
matter. 

' k A true copy from the minutes. 

" SAMUEL S. FEEEMAN, 
" Clerk:' 

Marked "Plff's Exhibit L, April 4, 1879." 
Q. You have intimated once or twice that you saw Dr. Tal- 
mage in regard to certain personal matters, and this resolution 



269 



Or minute of the Session intimates that such matters had been 
under consideration by the Session ; and after they had inves- 
tigated the case fully they were satisfied that there was noth- 
ing in them ; would you just state to the court what those 
matters were ; tell the whole matter? A. Other than that we 
have been alluding to? 

Q. Yes, sir ; just state those private personal matters that I 
did not ask for until this stage ? A. Well, sir, I learned at 
that time that there had been capital made against me — if 
that is the proper way to express it — by some parties on ac- 
count of some indebtedness I had in Brooklyn when I left ; 
I think I was in debt in Brooklyn when I left in the neighbor- 
hood of two hundred dollars, and I was on friendly terms with 
all to whom I was indebted, and promised them — I went to 
see nearly all of them. 

At the close of the direct examination of Mr. Hathaway, 
Presbytery adjourned, to meet on Monday next, at 2 p. M. 

J. MILTON GREENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



Apkil 7th, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 7th, at 2 p. M. 

Mr. I. W. Hathaivay was recalled and continued his testi- 
mony as follows : 

By Mr. McOullagh : Mr. Hathaway, you stated on Friday 
that when you returned from Princeton to Brooklyn, in the 
latter part of December, 1876, or the beginning of January, 
1877, you found that there were certain rumors afloat ; would 
you be kind enough to state to the court what you did about 
those rumors, your visit to Dr. Talmage and all that occurred 
between you and Dr. Talmage in regard to it without my ask- 
ing you any questions? A. When I returned to Brooklyn on 
the last Friday of December, 1876, I came with the inten- 
tion of attending the prayer-meeting that night, but was de- 
tained from doing so on account of the storm ; I went to the 
church on the Sabbath day and partook of communion ; I 
noticed strange treatment by my old friends ; however, it did 
not impress me much; on Monday, being New Year's Day, I 
went calling upon the people as usual ; I ascertained when I 



270 

reached the houses of some of my friends that there had been 
rumors afloat in the congregation in relation to my indebted- 
ness, to the effect that I was greatly in debt and that I had 
gone away leaving these debts unsettled, in a manner that 
would reflect on me as an honorable man, and it was for this, 
sir, that I visited Mr. Talmage, in connection with the other 
matters which I stated on Friday, and he told me that he 
thought that amounted to nothing; that all there was was 
this matter of the article that Dr. Van Dyke had written in 
the Presbyterian of Philadelphia ; when I came before the 
Session on the following Friday night I complained of these 
rumors as to my indebtedness ; I there indignantly denied 
that I had done anything that was dishonest in the least de- 
gree in connection with it ; that I w r as in debt about $150.00 — 
from $150.00 to $200.00 ; that was my statement there that 
night ; I challenged any man in the Session to stand up who 
owed less in Brooklyn than that ; there was one man by the 
name of McLean, with whom I had traded for years, for shoes; 
he keeps a place on Myrtle avenue ; I owed Mr. McLean 
$105.00 ; I paid him before going away $75.00, leaving a bal- 
ance of $30.00. It was reported to me that I owed him 100, 
200, 300, 400, 500 dollars for shoes — different reports ; it was re- 
ported that my wife had bought silver extravagantly ; and these 
are only samples of about one hundred such rumors that I re- 
ceived— all false ; I was in debt from $150.00 to $200.00 in Brook- 
lyn and it was that of which I complained ; when I went before 
the Session on Friday night — the first Friday night — Mr. Cor- 
win advised me to bring this man McLean before the Session ; 
I told him I had no quarrel with this man McLean; we had 
always been friends ; I did not know anything against Mr. 
McLean ; I don't to-day ; he and I are friends to-day, as are 
all my creditors in Brooklyn so far as I know ; I decreased 
that indebtedness about $75.00, notwithstanding I was not 
paid the pledge that was made me in the Brooklyn Taber- 
nacle. 

Q. What action did the Session take that evening when you 
presented this before them and demanded a statement in re- 
gard to your indebtedness? A. They said it amounted to 
nothing ; that these reports were false ; that my explanation 



271 



of my indebtedness was satisfactory and that I had better go 
back to Princeton and think no more of them ; Dr. Talmage 
said "think no more of the rumors." 

Q. Had you any difficulty with any one of your creditors ? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. No misunderstanding ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did any one of your creditors press you for the amount ? 
A. Not at that time. 

Q. Or subsequently ? A. There was one that did subse- 
quently — that is, wrote me letters, and I paid him in full ; I 
have his receipt. 

Q. Did I understand you that you have continued gradually 
to decrease that indebtedness from that time to the present ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did I understand you that you are on friendly terms with 
all your creditors at the present time? A. Yes, sir ; so far as 
I know. 

Q. Do you know of any of the dishonest practices with 
which you have been charged ? A. No, sir ; npt one. 

Q. Except these asserted by Dr. Talmage ? A. "What was 
your question, sir ? 

Q. Do you know, I ask you — have ever any other dishonest 
practices been charged against you other than these statements 
and rumors which were in circulation among the people of the 
Brooklyn Tabernacle ? A. No, sir ; no one has ever to my 
face charged me with any dishonest practices. 

Q. Did you see these parties as soon as it was reported to 
you that they were circulating the stories ; this Mr. McLean 
whom Corwin wished you to arraign before the session ? A. I 
did sir ; I called there New Year's day. 

Q. State to us, as well as you can, what he said in regard to 
this rumor ? A. He said that it was not his fault that this ru- 
mor had gone out ; he said he never should have told of it 
had not a party come there and inquired whether I owed him 
or not. 

Cross-examination by Mr. Millaed : 

Q. Why did you want the resolution of retraction you spoke 
of in your direct-examination adopted by the Session of the 
Tabernacle Church ? A. The one that was adopted January 
12th, you allude^? 



272 



Q. Yes, sir ; the one of which you have just been speaking? 
A. I would say there were two meetings of the Session ; which 
do you allude to ? 

Q. January 12th ? A. That was after I had heard of what 
Dr. Talmage had said ; and when I went before the Session 
that night I repeated what Dr. Yan Dyke had reported to me, 
and demanded a retraction. 

Q. What was it that Dr. Yan Dyke had reported ? A. Dr. 
Yan Dyke reported what I testified to on Friday. 

Q. Just tell it again? A. He reported to me that Dr. Tal- 
mage had in his study charged me with being an untruthful 
man, and having been a defaulter in the funds of the Taber- 
nacle. 

Q. That was the only thing you complained of before the 
Session ; that charge ? A. That was the only thing I com- 
plained of that night ; it might have — we might have referred 
to these other rumors that were referred to the week before. 

Q. What is your impression ; did you or not ? A. That was 
not in my mind ; those had all dropped out of my mind be- 
cause I considered them nothing. 

Q. The resolution refers not to one thing, but to several 
things, does it not ; rumors of different things ? A. I think it 
does, sir. 

Q. Then didn't you talk over something else besides the 
charge of having been a defaulter in the church funds? A. 
Well, sir, if you will allow me to explain the action that night 
in the Session ; I w r as intent upon having a retraction of that 
matter. 

Q. V/hat matter ? A. Of Dr. Talmage's slander. 

Q. I will read you the resolution, Mr. Hathaway, that you 
can see the point I wish you to answer to, 

" Resolved, That we, the Sessiou of this church, hereby ex- 
press our continued confidence in Mr. Hathaway's christian 
character, and we are satisfied that any and all charges which 
may be afloat in the community affecting his moral character 
are false and slanderous." 

Now those are the charges you have been speaking of — dishon- 
esty in regard to your debts ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That is what you meant there ? A. I was about to ex- 



273 



plain ; I was intent upon having a retraction from Dr. Talmage ; 
there were several — at least two or three — drafts of resolutions 
brought forward there; I decided that none of them would be 
satisfactory to me, and I was about to leave the room when Mr. 
Cogswell, who sat by my side and who is a man of peace, 
checked me and said: " Now, you had better accept what 
they offer you, and have this matter settled." Therefore, sir, 
I was not particular as to the preamble and wording ; I cared 
not what it might be, so long as it embodied the fact that 
everything was false and slanderous. 

Q. You say these rumors and charges against you were false; 
how, then, did they get into circulation ? A. Well, sir, I can- 
not tell you. 

Q. You don't know any one to your own knowledge that put 
them in circulation ? A. No one told me — no one that put 
them in circulation told me ; I have been told they put them 
in circulation. 

Q. Of your own knowledge you don't know who started 
them ? A. Only as I have been told. 

Q. Has Dr. Talmage, to your own knowledge — remember, 
not what you have heard — has Dr. Talmage, to your own 
knowledge ever said anything untruthful of you? A. Not to 
my knowledge; only as I have been~told ; he never did to my 
face ; no, sir. 

Q. Why, then, have you appeared here as a witness against 
him ? A. Because I could not help myself, sir. 
Q. You came reluctantly ? A. I did. 

Q. You continued President of the Young People's Associa- 
tion of the Tabernacle after you entered Princeton, did you 
not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long? A. Up, I think, to the 11th of October; 
that was our anniversary ; that closed the year. 

Q. What is your age, Mr. Hathaway ? A. According to 
your — I was going to say according to the psychology I have 
heard here, that I don't know. 

Q. Well, sir, we will take that answer, if that is your answer ? 
A. My mother, however, testifies to my age, and I know what 
she says about it. 
35 



274 



Q. What do you consider your age to be, Mr. Hathaway ? 
A. 41. 

Q. In the fall of 1876, I think yon have stated, this associa- 
tion had an anniversary ? A. Of 1876 ? yes, sir. 

Q. You took a great interest in that anniversary, I think 
you have stated on your direct examination ? A. I don't think 
I have ever stated so. 

Q. You have told of writing letters ; did }^ou take an interest? 
A. Yes, sir ; in all the anniversaries. 

Q. Were you one ot the speakers ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who were the other speakers ? A. Dr. Green, of Prince- 
ton Seminary. 

Q. Anybody else ? A. Dr. Talmage was present ; I don't 
remember whether he made any remarks or not. 

Q. Did you write to Mr. Eells a letter as to that anniversary ? 
A. I did. 

Q. Is that the letter, Mr. Hathaway ? (Letter handed to 
witness). A. Just allow me to read it, please ; yes, sir ; I 
wrote it. 

(Letter is offered in evidence by Mr. Millard, and read as 
follows : 

" Pkinceton, Sept. 19, '76. 

" Rich. Eells : 

" Dear Friend, — I have secured a good speaker for our anni- 
" versary : no expense except railroad fare, $3, and carriage. 
" Now I will leave all the bal. of arrangements to you^and Mr. 
" Gelston. We certainly do not want over two singers ; please 
" be careful not to make programme too long. I will speak 
" ten to fifteen minutes. Dr. Green thirty minutes, and per- 
" haps Dr. Hall fifteen. I wish you would get Mrs. Hage- 
" man; do if you possibly can. She is grand for such 
" an occasion. There are sweeter singers, but none that 
" will rouse that audience as she will. I would prefer 
" them to be made to cheer furiously before I spoke, and as this 

is my last year, I doubt not you will conform to my desire as 
" far as practicable. Please get Mr. Morgan, as I learn that 
" he is back again. Please make formal request of Trustees 
" for building. I do not now expect to be down until that day, 
* Oct. 11th, and may not be at the church until a little before 



275 



" eight o'clock of that evening. I will be responsible for the 
" speaker, the bal. is in your hands. 

" I shall write a letter to the association to be read by you 
" on the occasion of your business meeting next week." 

" I wrote Carrie some time ago, enclosing an order on the 
" gas company for some money I had in deposit there. I 
" have not heard from her ; please ask her if she rec'd it, 
" and oblige. 

" I wish you would write me occasionally. I want to keep 
" track of all church fights. I never heard of the famous one 
" until I was there. 

" Give our best regards to wife, Mrs. B., and Mr. and Mrs. 
" Gray; tell them I swallow great chuucks of theology every 
" day ; I shall be so full of it that I shall bust, if I don't 
" preach now and then to work it off. 

" Yours ever, 

" I. W. HATHAWAY." 

The letter is marked " Defendant's Exhibit 1, April 7, 
1879." 

Q. Who was this Mr. Eells ; who is he ? A. Mr. Eells was 
the Secretary of our society. 

Q. Did you not, while connected with the Tabernacle, use 
your official position to obtain credit of various parties in the 
City of Brooklyn ? A. Not to my knowledge, sir. 

Q. Were you not considerably in debt when you left Brook- 
lyn for Princeton ; that you partially answered ; I would like 
you to state again what the amount of your indebtedness 
was ? A. 1 have stated it as nearly as I know. 

Q. $150? A. $150 to $200. 

Q. Could you have obtained these credits but for your 
official relations with the Brooklyn Tabernacle ? A. Well, sir, 
I cannot tell anything about that. 

Q. Do you know that some of these parties would not have 
trusted you but for your official position in the church ? A. I 
don't know what influenced them, sir, to trust me. 

Q. Have you mentioned the names of all your creditors, 
Mr. Hathaway ? A. Oh> no, sir. 

Q. Can you do so now, please ? A. I don't think that I 
could. 



276 



Q. As near as you remember ? A. Those that I remember 
are as follows : I mentioned Mr. McLean — do you want the 
amounts ? 

Q. The amounts and the addresses of the parties? A. I 
was in debt to Mr. McLean $30 — a balance of $30. 

Q. Where does he live, sir ? A. Somewhere on Myrtle ave- 
nue ; No. 19, I think ; I am indebted to Mrs. Hume ; it was 
Mr. Hume ; he is since deceased ; the amount of that, accord- 
ing to her statement to me, which I have no doubt is correct, 
is some seventy odd dollars. 

Q. Whereabouts does she live ? A. I do not know, sir ; her 
place of business is on Fulton street ; I would state in con- 
nection with this amount, I supposed it was $50 less than it is, 
but I learn that it is $50 more than I thought it was, and I 
have perfect confidence in Mrs. Hume, and all her family, and 
believe them to be thoroughly honorable ; I can explain why I 
thought that if you wish il. 

Q. That is not necessary ; I just want the names and 
amounts so far as you remember ? A. I was indebted to Day- 
ton & Carter about $12 ; to Hoyt & Teale about $12 ; I was in- 
debted to T. Fleet about $30 ; I was indebted to a Mr. Johnson, 
on Atlantic avenue, about $27, which I paid ; I was indebted 
to a woman by the name of Mrs. Johnson, who did work for my 
wile, about $20, I think it was, which is paid ; I don't think 
of any others, sir. 

Q. Did you not tell some of the creditors to call at your 
residence upon a given day and you would pay them, when, in 
fact, on that day you and your family had left the city and 
were in Princeton? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you not leave Brooklyn for Princeton without calling 
upon these parties with reference to these bills you owed 
them ? A. There may have been one or two that I did not 
call on, but I wrote to them after getting to Princeton. 

Q. Did you call on Mr. Simpson ; is he one of the men you 
mentioned? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you owe him anything ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you call on Mr. McLean ? A. Oh, yes ; I paid him 
just a few days before I left. 

Q. Did you call on Mr. Hume ? A. Yes, sir ; the very day 
I went away ( 



277 



Q. Call on Mrs. Johnson or Mr. Johnson ? A. Which ? 

Q. Did you owe Mr. Johnson? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you cal! on him ? A. No, sir ; he is the man that 
called at my house and. I told him 

Q. (Interrupting.) The party that came to dun you ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Did yon call on Mrs. Johnson? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you call on Mr. Backus ? A. I called on Mr. Backus 
and paid him five dollars that I owed him ; the balance ; re- 
ceived his receipt in full. 

Q. Did you call on Mr. Shelly? A. No, sir; I was not 
aware that I owed Mr. Shelly. 

Q. Did you call on Mr. Wilson ? A. I didn't owe Mr. Wil- 
son until after wards. 

Q. After you went to Princeton ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you call on Mr. Fleet ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Pay him ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Has he sued you ? A. No, sir; I was never sued in my 
life. 

Q. Don't you know that the Tabernacle has paid some of 
your debts since you left ? A. No, sir. 

Q. When did you first know that Dr. Talmage made false 
statements against you, or thought you knew it ? A. When 
did I first know it ? 

Q. Yes, sir; when did you first hear it ? A. Heard it from 
Dr. Van Dyke ; that was on Saturday morning. 

Q. State as briefly as you can how Dr. Yan Dyke stated it 
to you ? A. I called on Dr. Yan Dyke Saturday morning ; that 
must have been the 6th of January ; I was very indignant at 
Dr. Yan Dyke, because I supposed he had slandered me from 
Dr. Talmage's statement to me, and I asked him if he had 
done so ; do you want this interview between Dr. Yan Dyke 
and myself? 

Q. Yes, sir ; if you please. A. I asked Dr. Yan Dyke if he 
had said thus and so about me to Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Is that the way you expressed it, " thus and so ? ; ' A. I 
asked Dr. Yan Dyke if he had told Dr. Talmage that I had 
given him information in relation to the indebtedness of the 
Tabernacle ; if he had told Dr. Talmage that I had been 



278 

guilty of dishonoring my trust as a confidential man in the 

Brooklyn Tabernacle, and he sprang from his chair with the 
expression : " No, sir ; I never told Dr. Talmage anything of 
the kind ; now," he says, " Mr. Hathaway, I will tell you 
what Dr. Talmage told me ; Dr. Talmage came here and ac- 
cused me of having inserted a false statement in an article in 
relation to the indebtedness of the Brooklyn Tabernacle, and 
I told him I had the authority of the officers of his church 
for the statement, and I named your name ; and upon that 
Dr. Talmage said that you were an untruthful man, could not 
be believed, and more than all, that you had been a defaulter 
to the funds ol the Tabernacle." 

Q. You believed that Dr. Talmage had made these remarks 
against you at the time, I suppose? A. Well, sir, I was in 
doubt whether Dr. Talmage told me the truth or Dr. Van Dyke 
told me the truth. 

Q. Are you in doubt still? A. No, sir; not a particle. 

Q. When that resolution was passed that you have been 
speaking of, did you then feel that Dr. Talmage had wronged 
you? A. Certainly I did, sir. 

Q. You did ? A. Certainly. 

Q. And you meant to take that resolution as a matter of 
compromise, did you, between you? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage ever confess the wrong to you? A. 
He confessed that he had said that it was slanderous if it was 
untrue ; but he denied having said that I was a defaulter. 

Q. Where did he confess that ? A. He confessed it in his 
house. 

Q. Just state what he said ? A. He said : " He did confess 
in our private interview that he had said some things which 
would be slanderous if they were false, but he had not ac- 
cused me of being a defaulter." 

Q. He did not confess then that he had ever done anything 
wrong towards you ? A. Yes, sir ; because he said that he 
had been led to believe that my indebtedness was two or three 
thousand dollars, instead of two hundred dollars, and on that 
supposition — but now he was informed that it was not that 
—he had. 

Q. He did not confess, then, that he ever intentionally did 
you any wrong ? A. Not with malice aforethought. 



279 



Q. He never asked your pardon for anything that he did ? 
A. Yes, sir ; he did in this way ; I do not know what you call 
a pardon ; he was present upon this occasion that this resolu- 
tion was passed, and I had there distinctly said what Dr. Van 
Dyke had said, and in the face of that statement he gave me 
this resolution. 

Q. That resolution does not speak of anything that Dr. Tal- 
mage did ; it says a member of the church ? A. Is not he a 
member of the church ? 

Q. Is he ? A. I so construed it. 

Q. Is not he a pastor over the church ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Can he be in it, and over it, at the same time ? A. I do 
not draw those fine distinctions. 

Q. He is not a member of the church, and so he is not in- 
cluded ? A. He is not named, but he is included with all the 
others. 

Q. Did you understand, then, that Dr. Talmage said any- 
thing to acknowledge that he had done you wrong ? A. I did 
understand it so, by this resolution. 

Q. And that he had knowingly done you any wrong — did he 
acknowledge that? A. I never charged that he maliciously 
and with malice aforethought did me wrong. 

Q. You never charged, then, that he told a falsehood about 
you, knowing it to be false ? A. I cannot tell what he knows. 

Q. But you just, this moment said that you never did 
charge him with doing anything maliciously ; now, if he said 
you had told a falsehood about him when he knew it, if he had 
charged [you with having done something wrong, when he 
knew you had not done it, he could not do that, could he, with- 
out malice ? A. If you will allow me to explain this, sir, I 
can explain just exactly what the state of my mind was in rela- 
tion to it. 

Q. Well, sir, I want to know whether Dr. Talmage ever ac- 
knowledged to you and took away any intentional wrong that 
he had done you? A. I certainly supposed that he did in that 
resolution ; because it said everything that had been circulated 
about me was false and slanderous, and he had ten minutes 
before been charged with having said these things to Dr. Van 
Dyke. 



280 



Q. Did you understand that in any thing he said there he 
acknowledged that he had circulated them ? A. He had been 
charged with it ten minutes before, and in the face of that he 
gave me this resolution. 

Q. You understood, then, did yon, that he confessed the 
wrong, whatever it was ? A. Yes, sir ; and took it all back. 

Q. If he had done a wrong, he confessed it, and you forgave 
him ? A. Yes, sir ; that is the reason I put that in my pocket 
and never did anything further about it. 

Q. Did yon ever speak of that resolution that was passed, to 
Captain Sloane ? A. Why, my dear sir, I told several persons 
that I had received snch a resolution. 

Q. Do you remember telling Captain Sloane when you were 
on to meet with that Session that you were going to have 
something done to make you right ? A. I do not remember, 
sir ; but I think very likely I did. 

Q. Do you recollect meeting him just after the meeting, I 
think, on the ferry boat, and telling him that you had got that 
in your pocket, and that within three years you would ruin the 
Tabernacle with it ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You told him nothing of the kind ? A. No, sir ; no, sir, 
never. 

Q. And ruin Dr. Talmage, too ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You told nothing of the kind to Captain Sloane ? A. No, 
sir ; nor to anybody else. 

Q. Now, I want to ask you that question again, Mr. Hatha- 
way ; you say you considered he did it there at the meeting of 
the Session ; did he at any other place ever acknowledge to you 
that he had made any false accusations against you? if so, 
when and where ? A. When I came down last spring a year 
ago, into the Brooklyn Tabernacle, where the Presbytery were 
sitting, he came to me and said that he ought to have written 
me a letter; that it was justice due me that he should have 
written me a letter to say that he had no ill will against me, 
and desired that I should have no ill will, and that we should 
be friends as we formerly had been. 

Q. Is that the answer to my question, sir? A. What was 
your question, sir? 

Q. My question was, did he ever acknowledge to you at any 



281 

other time that he had made false accusations against you 
if so, when and where ? A. After this resolution, sir, I never 
spoke to him about it, and supposed it was settled. 

Q. Did he, before that, ever in any other place than at 
that Session, acknowledge to you that he had made any false 
accusations against you? A. I do not know that he had. 

Q. Have you not made statements to Dr. Van Dyke 'con- 
cerning Dr. Talmage and his church ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Never? A. Never. 

Mr. Crosby — What kind of statements ? 

Q. The first statement is, have you made any ? A. Well, let 
us have a fair understanding about this, and repeat your 
question. 

Q. Have you not made statements to Dr. Van Dyke con- 
cerning Dr. Talmage and his church ? A. What kind of state- 
ments do you mean ? 

Q. I will ask you afterwards ; have you made any ? A. 
When? 

Q. We will get at that too, afterwards ; the first question is, 
have you made any? A. Yes, sir, I have. 

Q. Now, we come to the other point ; what were they ? 
A. Well, sir, I would like to have you outline something that 
you 

Q. Just state any statements you made to Dr. Van Dyke, 
concerning Dr. Talmage and his church ? A. I had an inter- 
view with Dr. Van Dyke subsequent to the General Assembly, 
for the purpose of advising with him in relation to my read- 
ing in theology, and in relation to going to Princeton, and 
Dr. Van Dyke, in one of those interviews — I called at his 
study some two or three times — asked me something in regard 
to the indebtedness of the Brooklyn Tabernacle; T answered him 
not a word ; Dr. Van Dyke then said to me, " Mr. Hathaway, 
I will tell you what it is," he says, " the first mortgage is so 
and so, the second is so^and so, the mortgages upon the Lay 
College are so and so, making such an amount ;" I remember 
that that statement that Dr. Van Dyke made to me I 
considered true ; I did not deny it, because it was true, and 
that is all the information that I ever gave Dr. Van Dyke 
about the finances of the Brooklyn Tabernacle. 
36 



282 

Q. You admitted to him that it was true ? A. I admitted 
that his statement was true. 

Q. That is all you ever told him about Dr. Talmage and 
his church ? A. That is all I ever told Dr. Van Dyke in re- 
lation to the finances of the Brooklyn Tabernacle. 

Q. Anything else about Dr. Talmage and his church ? A. 
Well, sir, I cannot recall anything else that I have said. 

Q. Well, tell us anything you know ? . A. I do not know 
anything further, sir. 

Q. Were you not in the habit of frequently visiting Dr. Yan 
Dyke, while you were connected with the Tabernacle ? A. 
No, sir; not until after the General Assembly, when I called 
to see him about going to Princeton ; I did not visit him be- 
fore ; I did not know him before. 

Q. Have you been instrumental in any manner in bringing 
this suit against Dr. Talmage ? A. Not the slightest. 

Q. Why not, sir, when you say he was guilty? A. Because 
they gave me that document, and I agreed to take it as a 
settlement, and I honestly did so, and I want to answer that 
question fully now that you have asked it ; I have never been 
instrumental in the slightest degree, in any manner whatever, 
in bringing on this prosecution, and I am only here in answer 
to a subpoena as a witness. 

Q. You mean to say, Mr. Hathaway, that if Dr. Talmage did 
anything wrong in the matter of charges against you, he so 
fully acknowledged it, and you so fully forgave him, that there 
was nothing more against him on that score? A. My dear sir- 
I have said over and over again that I accepted that state- 
ment 

Q. You said that you considered he had made such repara- 
tion and acknowledgment that there was no longer anything 
against him on that score ? A. 1 have never considered that I 
had such full reparation as I ought to have. 

Q. Then, if he was still guilty of anything, why did not you, 
as a presbyter, bring charges against him ? A. Because I 
thought it would be a very foolish thing for me to do. 

Q. If he was guilty, was not it your duty to bring charges 
against him ? A. I think, perhaps, I should perform my full 
duty in that regard, sir. 



283 



Q. I think you have told in your direct testimony that 
when you told your grievances to Dr. Van Dyke he hinted to 
you that the courts were open ? A. I did not say he hinted 
anything of the kind to me. 

Q. Did not he say so ? A. I asked him : " Dr. Van Dyke, 
" what shall I do under such a charge ? " His reply was : 
" That he had no advice to give — that the courts of the church 
" were open, and I could use them if I saw fit ;" and he says : 
" You are a member of the Seminary at Princeton, and you had 
best get your advice there." 

Q. Was that the first hint, so far as you know ; the first 
suggestion, from any quarter, of bringing Dr. Talmage before 
the Presbytery ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You acted on that hint, and went to Dr. Talmage, and 
threatened him with the Presbytery? A. I did not act on that 
hint at all. 

Q. You went afterwards and threatened him ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did not you say you would bring him before the Presby- 
tery ? A. Afterwards ; but there were other things between. 

Q. How long afterwards was it that you went and held that 
threat over him ? A. That was on Saturday morning, and he 
told me I had best consult with my professor at Princeton ; I 
took the train that day for Princeton, consulted with Dr. 
Green and Dr. McGill ; Dr. McGill told me I must imme- 
diately return to Brooklyn and have the matter settled ; I 
took Dr. McGilFs advice, not Dr. Van Dyke's, and came back 
on Monday to New York ; I called, in New York, on John F. 
Talmage ; I told John F. Talmage all about it ; John F. Tal- 
mage gathered together a few members of the Board of Trus- 
tees, and talked the matter over, and told me I had best go 
straight to Dr. Talmage ; Tuesday morning I went to Dr. Tal- 
mage alone, and then and there charged him with having 
slandered me, according to the report of Dr. Van Dyke. 

Q. You had been dropped as an elder in the Brooklyn Tab- 
ernacle, in the fall of 1876, were you not ? A. I do not know. 

Q. Didn't you ever hear of it ? A. Yes, sir ; I have heard 
of it. 

Q. Do you know the real reason why you were then dropped ? 
A. No, sir ; never been able to find out. 



284 



Q. Do you remember being in Brooklyn on Communion 
Sunday, December 26, 1876? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How did you employ this day; how were you received by 
the church and Sunday school ? A. By some members coldly, 
by others with the old warmth and friendship. 

Q. Didn't you tell Mrs. Corwin and others that you greatly 
enjoyed that day ? A. I have no recollection of such a re- 
mark. 

Q. You say you were received so coldly, that you went to 
Dr. Talmage for explanation ? A. Yes, sir ; in the Sabbath 
school. 

Q. What explanation did you give ? A. That was the 
Sabbath school treatment that I complained of. 

Q. You went to tell it to Dr. Talmage ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Just state in his own words his explanation of it? A. I 
said to Dr. Talmage my treatment in the Sabbath school ; I 
said to Dr. Talmage, at the same time, something in regard to 
the rumors of my indebtedness ; Dr. Talmage said that the 
matter of the indebtedness amounted to nothing ; Dr. Talmage 
said that the reason why I was thus received undoubtedly was 
owing to an article that had appeared in the Presbyterian of 
Philadelphia, written by Dr. Yan Dyke, having stated that he 
got his data from me to write that article, had prejudiced Mr. 
Corwin and others against me ; and I had best go and see 
Mr. Corwin, and it won Id all be explained. 

Q. You are certain that Dr. Talmage said his wile was out, 
and his daughter did not understand the condition of things, 
and called him down ; and he then and there saw Dr. Yan 
Dyke, are you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You are certain that he saw Dr. Yan Dyke ? A. I was 
not there, sir. 

Q. You are certain that was what Dr. Talmage said to you ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You are as certain of that as of anything you have sworn 
to ? A. No, sir ; I cannot say I am as certain of that as of 
anything I have sworn . to, because that was not of as vital 
importance to me ; these articles, that are of vital importance 
to my character, were impressed upon my memory as though 
written there with a diamond, but these other items of less 
importance were not so thoroughly impressed. 



285 



Q. On that Friday evening that you were before the Ses- 
sion, just state again what occurred there? A. Which Friday 
evening ? 

Q. When you went before the Session to get this retrac- 
tion ? 

Mr. McCullaGtH — That is on January 12th. 
Mr. Millard — Yes, sir. 

A. Well, I went before the Session and stated my grievances 
as to the report coming from Dr. Yan Dyke. 

Q. Did you shed tears while stating it ? A. I may have 
done so ; I do not know. 

Q. You said it was ruining you, and standing in the way of 
your ministry ? A. I do not know, sir; I know I felt very 
badly about it, and I demanded full satisfaction, or the matter 
would have to be settled in the Presbytery ; after some discus- 
sion of the resolutions as to the settlement, I accepted the one 
which is in evidence, and honestly went away with it. 

Q. Did Mr. Corwin speak in that meeting? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Speak kindly? A. I do not remember what he said. 

Q. Did you not after that, in a speech before the Session, 
charge the whole slander on Major Corwin ? A. I think very 
likely I said something of that kind ; I do not remember ; I 
would like to explain that. 

Q. Certainly ? A. I would like to explain, so that Dr. 
Talmage may know precisely how I feel in relation to this, and 
have felt all the time, and if the Presbytery will permit, and 
with your permission. 

Q. Go on, sir ? A. The first session on the Friday evening 
the week before this, I tarried after they had all gone except 
Mr. McKelway, and I told Dr. Talmage that I had no quarrel 
with Mr. McLean at all, or any other man, and that T believed 
my grievances lay with Mr. Corwin ; and I told Dr. Talmage 
before leaving him that I thought he was like a man with the 
millstone about his neck with Mr. Corwin ; he smiled ; said T, 
* Dr. Talmage, I want you to put that in your pipe and smoke 
" it, and remember that I told you so ;" I believe to-day, sir, 
could you 

Q. That is not important? A, I thought that was the 
privilege I had. 



286 



Q. I want you to say anything you said at that meeting? A. 

That is what I told him the week before. 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. That was not at the meeting of January 12th ? Q. The 
week before, that was. 

Q. What I was asking you about was whether, at that ses- 
sion, you did not charge this whole thing upon Mr. Corwin? 
A. I cannot say, sir. 

Q. What is your impression ? A. My impression was that 
I thought Major Corwin had a good deal to do with it. 

Q. What is your impression that you did say in that 
speech — that you did or not say that you thought Major 
Corwin was guilty of the whole of it? A. I would not swear 
to that. 

Q. You have said you spoke to Dr. Talmage about Mr. Cor- 
wic, and what you did say? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You went to Princeton and came back the following 
Tuesday, January 11th? A. I came on Monday, sir. 

Q. You were very intimate with Mr. Sloane, were you not? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Were you not friends ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Didn't he help you with money? A. Not to my knowl- 
edge, sir. 

Q. While in Princeton you told Professors Green and Mc- 
Gill all about this matter as you have testified to here, and 
you say they advised you to go and bring it before the Ses- 
sion ? A. I said Dr. McGill advised me. 

Q. When and where did Dr. Talmage call Dr. Yan Dvke a 
notorious liar ? A. He called him so on Tuesday morning — 
the morning that I apprised him of what Dr. Yan Dyke had 
said. 

Q. Now, I want you to give his exact language as near as 
you remember ? A. That is it. 

Q. Repeat it please ? A. All the interview or just that part 
of it? 

Q. Just what he charged upon him ? A. What is that, 

sir ? 

Q. You may give the whole interview if you wish; what I 
want particularly is what he said about Dr. Yan Dyke's being 



287 



a liar ? A. Yes, when he refused to go with me to Dr. Yan 
Dyke he told me that he believed that I was a truthful man, 
he had never known anything to the contrary, but that Dr. 
Van Dyke was a notorious liar. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage advise you to see Mr. Corwin ? A. 
When ? 

Q. At that time ? A. No, sir. 

Q. At any time duriug this matter? A. I have sworn he 
told me at the previous interview that I had best see Mr. Cor- 
win. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Corwin ? A. I did. 

Q. Did you say you would not see him unless you had a 
witness ? A. That is another occasion ; please let me state 
so that you will understand it thoroughly. 

Q. Anybody with you ? A. No, sir ; nobody then ; the fol- 
lowing Tuesday at Dr. Yan Dyke's office he asked me to go 
with him and see Mr. Corwin, and I refused ; I had learned 
something during the week. 

Q. Why were you not willing to see Mr. Corwin without a 
witness ? A. Because I had learned during the week what he 
had been doing. 

Q. Had he ever, to your knowledge, injured you in any way? 
A. Not before this, sir. 

Q. Had he then to your own "knowledge ? A. It is accord- 
ing to what you call knowledge. 

Q. I do not call hearsay knowledge ; had he, to your knowl- 
edge, done you an injury ? A. Never to my face, sir ; he was 
always a friend to my face. 

Q. Had he to your knowledge ? A. If to my definite knowl- 
edge, then I have some knowledge that may be known here as 
all about it. 

Q. If it was hearsay I do not want it ; but if you have any 
knowledge of your own we would like, to have it ? A. How 
am I to have knowledge of my own on that matter ; Mr. Cor- 
win never injured me to my lace. 

Q. When that resolution of retraction was passed who 
urged the passage of the resolution ? A. I do not know, sir ; 
I was a good deal excited that night and did not pay much 
attention to what they did, only they gave me the retraction ; 
that was what I asked for. 



288 



Q. By what vote was that passed ? A. By a unanimous 
vote. 

Q. Did all vote V A. No one in the negative. 

Q. How many voted on it ? A. It says in the resolution, 
" unanimously." 

Q. How many, as matter of fact, did vote ? A. I suppose 
they all voted ; I don't know. 

Q. I will ask you whether there were more than three per- 
sons that actually voted when it came to the vote ? A. Why, 
sir, I do not know anything about it. 

Q. How many were there then ? A. There were ten I should 
judge ; the names are all in there. 

Q. You cannot tell whether from your hearing of it, only 
about three voted or whether all voted ? A. I think they all 
voted, sir ; it says so in the resolution that they gave me. 

Q. Was there any opposition by any members of the Ses- 
sion to adopting that resolution ? A. No, sir ; because they 
all voted unanimously. 

Q. I mean as it was under discussion ? A. They discussed 
different resolutions and finally settled upon this one. 

Q Was it not written and rewritten before it was adopted ? 
A. I have said so — yes, sir. 

Q. What does the vvhole matter .in that resolution refer to ? 
A. It referred to everything and anything that may have been 
said by anybody. 

Q. Was it not a fact that many members of the Session 
would not consent to the adoption of this resolution until after 
these words had been inserted : " This resolution being passed 
by the Session and accepted by Mr. Hathaway as a final and 
satisfactory adjustment of the whole matter ? " A. If you will 
allow me to explain my answer I can explain it fully. 

Q. You can explain it when you get into the hands of your 
counsel ; was not it a fact that several members of the Session 
would not vote for it until those words were added? A. I 
stated 

Q. Was not it fact ? A. I decline to answer catogorically 
I will answer, however. 

Q. Was it not passed at your urgent solicitation ? A. I 
was very urgent, indeed, that they should settle the matter, or 
I said I should bring it before the Presbytery. 



289 



Q. And you accepted it as a complete and final settlement 
of all difficulties between you ? A. I did. 

Q. Now, in regard to the matter of the renting of pews, you 
testified something about that ; I want to ask you ; you said 
something in your direct examination, of Dr. Talmage's an- 
nouncement in regard to the renting of the pews ; that the 
dollar question was to have nothing to do with it ; did you 
consider he was making a false statement then ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Knowing it to be false ? A. He must have known it. 
Q. You were an elder in the church then, were you ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you ever make any charges against him before the 
Session for that? A. No, sir. 

Q. Why didn't you ? A. Because I was contaminated by 
the influence around me. 

Q. That is all the auswer you have to give to that ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Did you ever remonstrate with Dr. Talmage for that ? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. And all the answer you have to give seriously to this 
Presbytery is, that you were contaminated ? A. Well, sir ; I 
felt that it was wrong, but I did not feel that I w T as called upon 
to interfere. 

Q. Why not, if you were an Elder in the church ? A. Well, 
sir ; I was a young man, and there were a great many older 
elders. 

Q. You did not have the courage to do it ? A. Yes, sir ; but 
I did not wish to presume to dictate to my pastor. 

Q. Not even to the extent of remonstrating kindly; you had 
the courage to go when your own matters were injured ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. But when the Church of Christ was injured, you had not 
the courage to tell him so ? A. Yes, sir, 

Q. You listened then, an Elder in that church, week after 
week, month after month, to Dr. Talmage telling lies, and had 
not the courage to go and tell him so, did you ? A. I did not 
say I hadn't the courage. 

Q. For some reason you did not make up your mind to say 
37 



290 



'is 



a word about it? A. I said to Dr. Talmage, in connection 
with the Board of Trustees, that I thought it would be better 
to drop that. 

Q. Did you ever say to Dr Talmage, " you are telling false- 
hoods, and you know it ? " A. No, sir. 

Q. After that, hearing Dr. Talmage make those statements, 
and knowing them to be a falsehood, did you take a letter of 
introduction from him to Princeton ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You took a letter from a known liar to Princeton ? A. I 
decline to answer the question. 

Q. Did you take money from him and his church, while you 
knew that he was lying in that way ? A. I do not know what 
he did after I went away. 

Q. After you knew of his lying, did you accept his money ? 
A. I did not accept of his money that I know of. 

Q. Didn't you accept money that he went into the Sabbath 
School and asked them to give you ? A. I did ; I didn't ac- 
acept as much as they agreed to give, though. 

Q. Do you know the reason why they stopped giving ? A. 
No, sir ; I don't. 

Q. Perhaps we may enlighten you ? A. I should like to 
know, sir. 

Q. (Handing the written paper.) I want you to say if this 
is answer you were in the habit of giving to those who 
made application for pews ? A. What do you mean, sir ? 

Q. Was that the form of answer you generally sent; isn't 
it in your handwriting, that on the first page ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is that the answer you were in the habit of giving to 
those who made application for pews ? A. I do not under- 
stand what you mean, sir ; this is a printed circular, and I 
filled up the blank. 

Q. What I ask you is, whether that is the answer you were 
accustomed to send to applicants for pews ; don't you remem- 
ber, without so much study, whether this is what you were in 
the habit of sending back ? A. I cannot tell without looking 
it over. 

Q. Do you make out that that was what you were in the 
habit of sending ? A. I never sent this to any one, all under- 
lined in pencil ; I did not. 



291 



Q. The rest of it you were in the habit of sending ? A. 
No, sir ; that underscoring was not on it when I sent it out ; 
I simply sent the main statement. 

Q. Is that all right ? (handing another paper to the wit- 
ness.) A. Yes, sir. 

(Mr. Millard offers the paper in evidence and reads it as 
follows :) 

Beooklyn Tabernacle, ) 
Central Presbyterian Church, > 
Brooklyn, 2—23, 1876. ) 

Mrs. E. E. Greenman : 

Madam, — In accordance with your application dated 2 — 10, 
187G, the Board of Trustees hereby assign you one sitting in 
pew No. 561, for one year from February 1st, 1876, subject 
however to the accompanying regulations concerning the 
assignment of pews. 

Brooklyn Tabernacle, 1876. Begulations respecting assign- 
ment of pews, as per resolutions passed by Board of Trustees. 

I. — Pews and sittings in this church will be assigned for the 
term of one year from the quarter beginning February 1st, at 
the expiration of which time the same revert again to the 
Trustees. 

II. — Prompt notice should be given on the part of those 
holding seats to vacate the same, that other applicants may be 
accommodated. Failure to occupy the pew for four Sabbaths 
in succession will be deemed evidence of the sittings having 
been surrendered, unless notice to the contrary is conveyed to 
the ushers. Any member changing place of residence will 
confer a favor by giving prompt notice of the fact. 

III. — As no pew rentals are exacted, all the expenses neces- 
sary for the support and maintenance of the church must be de- 
frayed by voluntary contributions. Each member of the con- 
gregation is expected, therefore, to contribute to the fullest 
extent of his or her means toward this end. In order that the 
Trustees may have assurance of the prospective income of the 
church, by which to meet its running expenses, all con- 
tributing members name an annual subscription, and pay the 
same either by quarterly or weekly installments. 

Marked " Deft's Exhibit 2, April 7, 1879. 

Q. Did that truly represent the system of the Tabernacle 



292 



Church ? A. That was a circular put into my hands by the 
Board of Trustees. 

Q. Did it tell the truth ? A. Not in all respects. 

Q. You sent it out knowing it not to be the truth ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Didn't you send it out ? A. Yes, sir ; I sent it out. 

Q. Didn't you say you knew then that it didn't tell the 
truth ? A. I was working under the orders of the Board of 
Trustees. 

Q. Could you answer my question first and make your 
statement afterwards ? A. No, sir. 

Q. (Question repeated.) A. I decline to answer any 
questions putting me in that position. 

Q. You say, do you, that Dr. Talmage publicly, before his 
congregation, every member of which knew of the fact, told 
lies about the way the pews were rented ? A. I never said so. 

Q. You say he got up and week after week and month after 
month, announced that the dollar question had nothing to do 
with it, when he knew and all his congregation knew that it 
was false ? A. I did not say so. 

Q. Wasn't it so? A. No, sir. 

Q. Didn't they know whether it had anything to do with 
it ? A. I did not say from week to week, but occasionally he 
did it. 

Q. If you cannot say then that he, in the face of his con- 
gregation — the most of them knew it, didn't they? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. In the face of his congregation — the most of them know- 
ing he was lying — he lied about the way the pews were rent- 
ed ? A. If you want to see them, I can show you a package 
of letters, a great many of them which ask : " Why does Dr. 
Talmage tell these lies about renting the pews ?" 

Q. Have you shown them to Dr. Talmage ? A. I have. 

Q. Tell one letter you showed to him ? A. I do not know 
that I did show it to him. 

Q. Just show one letter that you called his attention to 
from people who said he was lying ? A. I do not know that I 
did. 

Q. Was that a letter that came to you about pews (handing 



293 



letter to witness) ? A. I presume so ; I received a great 
many ; I do not know whether I ever received it or not. 

Q. Do you recollect receiving it ? A. Well, sir, I have no 
recollection as to this identical letter ; I received a great 
many letters. 

Q. Have you any doubt that the letter was received by 
you ? A. I suppose so ; I have no doubt, although I do not 
know anything about its identity. 

Mr. Millard offers the letter in evidence, and reads it, as 
follows : 

February 2d, 1876. 

Mr. I. W. Hathaway : 

Dear Sir, — It grieves me to inform you that it is utterly im- 
possible for me to hold my seats in the Tabernacle. Events 
over which I have no control have placed me among the poor- 
est of the flock. Naturally liberal, I have clone my best to 
assist in aiding on the work of truth and righteousness in the 
past, but to-day I am at my " wits' end " to find the means of 
subsistence. What with losses and sickness and an almost 
cessation of my business, the prospect is I shall soon be 
homeless. Do the best you can with the seats. They are 
favorably situated, and will undoubtedly attract new comers. 
Wife and I will take our chances with the crowd until relief 
comes, which I trust my Master will send. I am constantly 
directing people to you for seats, and will do all I can to as- 
sist you by a friendly act, if acceptable. 

All my pledge will yet be redeemed. The sun still shines, 
though an almost impenetrable cloud intercepts my vision. 

May God in his mercy bless you and make you still more 
useful in the future while you labor with an eye single to His 
glory ! is the heartfelt desire and prayer of 

Yours, 

J. R Smith." 

(Marked " Defendant's Exhibit 3, April 7, 1879. 

Mr. Millard — On this is indorsed, in Major Corwin's hand, 
"Let him alone. B. R. C." 

Q. Now, you have brought in here four of those documents 
with Major Corwin's indorsement on tbem, when the parties 
were not to have them on the terms they wanted ; how many 



294 



applicants for pews do you imagine you had while you were 
there V A. I do not know ; I had a great many. 

Q. State somewhere approximately ? A. You mean the re- 
appointment ? 

Q. The number of persons that applied to you for renewals 
or new sittings while you were there ? A. I had charge of 
the renewal for two years, and therefore all the congregation 
passed through my hands in that regard twice. 

Q. It would be thousands, wouldn't it ? A. I think that we 
had as high as — now, I won't be positive as to the number of 
pewholders — I think we had as high as six hundred on our 
list at one time. 

Q. And that for two or three years would be some eighteen 
hundred or two thousand ? A. No, sir ; twice six hundred 
would be twelve hundred. 

Mr. McCullagh — I could have put in a great many more 
indorsed by Mr. Corwin in the same way, if I had thought it 
necessary. 

Q. How many more have you that are indorsed in that 
way ? A. I do not know. 

Q. How many of them ? A. I could not tell ; I have a 
large package of them. 

Q. Do you think more than a dozen in all ? A. I don't 
know that there is more than a dozen. 

Q. On those dozen occasions, you have Major Corwin's en- 
dorsements on it to let them have it on their terms ; now, 
don't you know that w T hen there were any such cases as these, 
the endorsements were made for exceptional cases; let me 
illustrate my case ; suppose a man came to you, as having 
charge of the matter, and wanted a pew and you knew him to 
own a pew in another church, and that he gave all his money 
to the other church, and he came to avail himself of your pew 
system to take an extra pew for himself and friends, you would 
understand that that came within Dr. Talmage's idea of a free 
church ? A. I do not know that I am called to pass upon 
that. 

Q. Now, what I ask you is this, whether these dozen cases, 
where they would not let parties have the pews they wanted, 
may not have been based upon some special reason of that 
kind ? A. I have not said they are not. 



295 



Q. Do you recollect when you were arranging with Mr. 
Barnum for letting him have his pew again, saying anything 
like this to him : "I can get more rent for that pew, but if you 
will cancel what I owe you, twelve dollars, for bouquets to put 
in my buttonhole, I will let you have the pew at the old price ? 
A. I had no authority. 

Q. I do not ask you what your authority is ; did you say 
anything of the kind to him ? A. It is according to what you 
mean by "anything of that kind." 

Q. Or words to that effect ; did you tell him that you could 
get more for the pew, but if he would cancel your bill for but- 
tonhole bouquets you would let him have it at the old price ? 
A. No, sir ; I will tell you ; I had a conversation with Mr. 
Barnum in relation to it. 

Q. Well, I want to kuow if you said anything to that effect ; 
if you say no, that is enough of it ? A. My dear sir, it de- 
pends entirely on what you call "to that effect." 

Q. If you think it was to that effect, then state it ? A. I 
had a conversation with Mr. Barnum in relation to that matter ; 
Mr. Barnuui was paying three hundred dollars for his pews ; 
those around him were paying three hundred dollars for their 
pews ; Mr. Barnum told me that he could not afford to pay three 
hundred dollars, and wished I would see the Board of Trustees 
and have it reduced to one hundred and fifty dollars ; I told 
him I would do so ; I said nothing about my bill ; I went to 
the Trustees, had the matter arranged on the book for one 
hundred and fifty dollars a year, instead of three hundred dol- 
lars a year, and when I came back with that to Mr. Barnum I 
had then said to Mr. Barnum that he had better tear up my 
bill, which he did. 

Q. You did not make the suggestion, then, until you had got 
the thing fixed ? A. No, sir. 

Q. I want to ask you about one other ; do you recollect ar- 
ranging with Mr. Backus about his pew ; do you recollect say- 
ing to Mr. Backus that the pew he wanted was worth more 
money, and you could get more money for it, but if he would 
receipt your grocery bill he should have it at the old figure ? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Nothing of the kind? A. No, sir. 



296 



By Dr. Spear : 

Please notice my questions ; I shall repeat some that Mr. 
Millard asked ; did you understand the resolution of January 
12th, 1877, passed by the Session of the Tabernacle Church, 
to be a final settlement of the difficulty between you and Dr. 
Talmage, growing out of what you were told the latter had 
said about you to Dr Van Dyke ; was it a final settlement ? 
A. That is such a long question that I shall have to ask you to 
repeat it. 

(Question repeated.) A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You understood it to be a final settlement of the whole 
question ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you, yourself, accept that resolution as a burial of all 
the past on that subject? A. I did. 

Q. Have you since met Dr. Talmage, and he met you, on ap- 
parently pleasant terms, and if so when and where ; you may 
answer the first — on apparently pleasant terms ? A. The 
only time that I have met 

Q. Answer my question ; your subsequent meetings with 
Dr. Talmage appeared to be on pleasant terms ? A. I never 
had but one, as I remember. 

Q. When and where was that ? A. A year ago this month, 
in the Brooklyn Tabernacle, when the Presbytery met there ; 
I entered the Tabernacle from the east door ; came down the 
circular aisle ; saw Dr. Talmage across on the other side ; I 
sat in a pew there, and Dr. Talmage came directly over to me 
and shook hands with me very cordially. 

Q. You met him then and there, and the terms were pleas- 
ant ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. At any other time and place ? A few moments after- 
wards, when I went in to partake of the collation. 

Q. Were the terms pleasant then and there ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. At any other time and place ? A. I do not remember 
any other. 

Q. Have you avoided him anywhere ? A. No, sir ; I have 
never avoided him ; I do not know whether he did me or not. 

Q. Is it merely accidental that you have thus failed to meet 
each other ? A. Yes, sir ; so far as I know. 

Q. On your part it is ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On his part it is ? A. I do not know about his part. 



297 



Q. So far as you know ? A. So far as I know. 

Q. So that nothing unpleasant that was exhibited by yoU 
toward him and he toward you, so far as you know, was left 
after this final settlement of January 12th, 1877 ? A. I can- 
not say that fully. 

Q. The thing was practically settled ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Honorably, too ? A. I accepted the settlement. 

Q. And you accepted an honorable settlement, did you ? A. 
Well, I accepted it. 

Q. If this whole difficulty was thus settled, do you know how 
the subject matter thereof came to be lugged into this trial, as 
set forth in the fourth specification ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Don't know anything about it ? A. I can relate to you 
all my intercourse. 

Q. I will get out that when I am ready for it ; I want you to 
answer that question ; if the difficulty was thus settled, do you 
know how the subject matter thereof, namely, the difficulty, 
came to be lugged into this trial, as set forth in the fourth 
specification ? A. I suppose the witness can except to the 
phraseology ; if you can just change that word? 

Q. I will throw that word out for your convenience ? A. I 
will answer that by saying no. 

Q. Did you make any statement to the committee of inquiry 
of which the Rev. Mr. Crosby was the chairman, or any state- 
ment to the Rev. Mr. Crosby, in regard to this difficulty which 
had been settled by the action of the Session on the 12th of 
January, 1877 ? A. If you will allow me to explain I will 
answer you fully. 

Q. I will call for the explanation when I get ready for it ? 
A. With a general explanation just how r I did that I will 
answer you. 

Q. You decline to answer the question categorically — one 
way or the other ? A. I think I shall have to decline answer- 
ing it categorically ; I want to answer your questions with all 
freeness and fullness ; I do not want to appear to be objecting, 
but I want you to give me the privilege of answering that. 

Q. I shall give you that privilege when I get ready ; do you 
understand the question ? A. Yes, sir ; I understand it fully, 
and with the understanding that I have a privilege of explain- 
88 



298 



ing my answer : I say I did make a statement to Mr. Crosby 
only, of that committee. 

Q. Did you first seek the committee or Mr. Crosby, or did 
the committee or Mr. Crosby first open the matter to you ? A. 
They first opened the matter to me. 

Q. Who did ? A. Mr. Crosby. 

Q. Did you tell the committee or Mr. Crosby that the whole 
matter had been finally settled when it was opened to you? 
A. I never saw the committee ; saw Mr. Crosby and did not 
so state to Mr. Crosby. 

Q. And that the whole matter was disposed of? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. What else did you say to him ? A. I told him I declined 
to have anything to do with it ; that I had other business. 

Q. Did you write to him ? A. No, sir. 

Q. It was a conversation ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Give us that conversation ? A. I told Mr. Crosby that I 
should have nothing to do with it ; he told me that was not 
my dictum, but his. 

Q. That you should have nothing to do with it ? A. Yes, 
sir ; and that I was a member of this Presbytery. 

Q. That was before the prosecution was commenced ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you make such a statement to Mr. Hamblin ? A. Mr. 
Hamblin ? 

Q. Yes, a gentleman by the name of Mr. Hamblin ; did you 
say to Mr. Hamblin that this whole matter was settled and 
ended ? A. I do not remember, but I said it to several per- 
sons. 

Q. Do you recollect saying so to him or not ? A. I do not 
recollect of saying it to lfim ; I am under the impression that I 
did not, because I have very little acquaintance with Mr. 
Hamblin ; I may have said it in his hearing. 

Q. How came this matter between you and Dr. Talmage, 
which was a personal difficulty involving him and yourself and 
collaterally the Session — how came this matter to be revived 
at all after a lapse of two, three or four years ; so far as you 
know ? A. I do not know, sir. 

Q. You don't know anything about it? A. No, sir. 



299 



Q. You were no party to the revival of it ? A. Not the 
slightest. 

Q. Was there prior to the action of the Presbytery incorpo- 
rating this difficulty, in one of the specifications against Dr. Tal- 
mage so far as you know, any public rumor charging him with 
falsehood and deceit in respect to this difficulty ? A. I shall 
be bound to ask for a repetition of that question. 

Question repeated. Was there any public rumor alleging 
the thing that is stated in this fourth specification, so far as 
you know ? A. So far as I know, up to the time of this court, 
I told it to a few personal friends ; that is all I know 
about it. 

Q. Did you hear of it ; was it talked about in the community, 
to your personal knowledge ? Only to my personal friends. 

Q. Has it been talked about since to your knowledge ? A. It 
has been talked about since this thing 

Q. But before the matter of the Presbytery was talked 
about ? A. I don't know so. 

Q. Did you hear about it ? A. Only among my personal 
friends. 

Q. Did you hear any general reference to it ? A. No, sir ; I 
was not in the way to. 

Q. Did you see any reference to it in the newspapers ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Do you know, or did you not believe, that prior to the 
filing of this specification, the knowledge of this whole diffi- 
culty between you and Dr. Talmage was limited to compara- 
tively a few persons ? A. That sir, I know nothing about. 

Q. What is your belief — your best belief — that it was a 
thing that lay in a very narrow circle ? A. Dr. Yan Dyke 
knew of it, and my friends knew of it. 

Q. How many ? A. Say a dozen. 

Q. There were thirteen persons ? A. Now how many they 
told I don't know anything about. 

Q. Have you any evidence that it was within the range, so 
far as your knowledge is concerned, of but a very few persons? 
A. I have no evidence, sir. 

Q. What is your belief about the fact ? A. I do not know 
that I have any • I do npt know that it would be right for me 



300 



to express any opinion, because I learned it long ago, doctor, 
not to express any opinion about something I knew nothing 
about. 

Q. Where were you employed and what was your business 
prior to your coming to the Tabernacle Church ? A. I would 
say, Doctor, that I have no objection to going into all this 
business. 

Q. No matter ; where were you employed and what was your 
business prior to your coming to the Tabernacle Church? A. 
Well, sir ; only before answering the question I want to have 
it understood how far the examination is going in that direc- 
tion. 

Q. You will get light on that subject as I proceed ; where 
were you employed and what was your business prior to com- 
ing to the Tabernacle Church? A. I had charge of a brush 
manufacturing business in New York. 

Q. Just before coming to the Tabernacle Church ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Were you ever employed in JChicago ? A. Oh yes — no, 
sir. 

Q. Just answer the question then, were you ever employed 
in Chicago ? A. I was in business in Chicago. 

Q. Did you ever have any trouble or difficulty with a sales- 
man in that city ? A. I do not know, sir ; I had quite a num- 
ber of fellows that I discharged at different times ; I do not 
remember. 

Q. Did you, after coming to the Tabernacle Church, ever 
there hold the office of assistant pastor ? A. No, sir ; I acted 
in that capacity to a certain extent. 

Q. You did not hold the office ? A. Not as the office. 

Q. Was there an assistant pastor ? A. Not legally ; no, sir. 

Q. Didn't you have cards published in which you declared 
yourself to be the assistant pastor ? A. No, sir. 

Q. No such cards were ever published? A. No, sir. 

A. Hadn't Dr. Talmage always treated you with kindness, 
and sought to aid you, up to about the time the letter written 
by " Augustine " appeared in the Presbyterian ? A. We had 
always been very friendly, sir. 

Q. He had aided you and served you in various ways? A. 
In what way do you mean ; we were friends. 



301 



Q. He gave you the token of friendship ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Unabated? A. Yes, sir; fully. 

Q. Clear up to that period ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you ever call Major Corwin a black hearted hypo- 
crite ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you ever call Mr. Shelly a green eyed fiend ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Do you know, or not, that parties complained to the 
Trustees of the church that you were using your office in the 
church as the means of gaining credits ? A. No, sir ; I never 
knew it. 

Q. Was your attention called to the fact by anybody ? A. 
No, sir, never ; never had a complaint of any character made to 
me while I was there, Doctor, or anything of the kind. 

Q. After the appointment of the committee of inquiry, your 
attention was called to this difficulty between you and Dr. 
Talmage by a letter addressed to you by the Eev. Mr. Crosby, 
was it? A. No, sir. 

Q. How was it first called to your attention ? A. Called to 
my attention by Mr. Crosby personally. 

Q. He called personally to see you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I think you have told the Presbytery what you said to 
him ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you afterwards consult with any member of the 
Presbytery as to what course you should take, after Mr. Crosby 
called upon you, or wrote to you, no matter which, did you go 
to some member of this Presbytery to take counsel of him as 
to what you should do ? A. I would say in answer to your 
question as it is put — I would say no, sir. 

Q. I will put that question again ; did you afterwards, that 
is, after the conversation with Mr. Crosby, consult with any 
member of the Presbytery as to what course you should take ? 
A. No, sir ; not to my knowledge. 

Q. Bethink yourself ? A. As to what course I should pur- 
sue ? 

Q. Yes, sir ; under the circumstances ? A. My desire ; I 
had nothing to do. 

Q. Did you seek his advice ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You sought the advice of no member of this body, after 



302 



Mr. Crosby had visited you and talked with you about this 
difficulty A. The other day I walked home with the Rev. Mr. 
St. John, and took tea with him. 

Q. Did you go and have a long conversation with the Rev. 
Mr. St. Johu upon the subject very soon after your interview 
with Mr. Crosby ? A. "While Mr. St. John was sick I called 
upon him because he was sick, not to consult with him about 
this. 

Q. Did you talk with him ? A. I think it was mentioned. 

Q. Now, Mr. Hathaway, I want you to begin from the very 
commencement of that conversation with the Rev. Mr. St. 
John and detail item by item, everything you said ~i A. I can 
not do it. 

Q. To the very best of your recollection ? A. I cannot do 
it at all. 

Q. All that you can recollect ? A. I do not have specific 
recollection about it. 

Q. You do not know what you said at all ? A. No, sir ; I 
could not recall it ; I called on Mr. St. John when he was sick, 
because he was sick, without any reference to this matter 
whatever, and this matter, I think, was mentioned there, and I 
think I told him I had nothing to do with bringing it forward, 
and had nothing whatever to do with it, except to obey the 
subpoena of this court. 

Q. At the time I am now alluding to, the specifications had 
not been formed ? A. No, sir ; but I had been assured I 
should be subpoenaed, and could not get away from them. 

Q. By whom ? A. Mr. Crosby. 

Q. Then he understood beforehand that he knew what the 
Presbytery would do ; that assumes that he was omniscient 
and cognizant of what was to be done ? A. That, if the mat- 
ter was carried forward, I should be subpoenaed ; that is what 
he told me. 

Q. Can you recollect anything that you said to Mr. St. John? 
A. We talked generally about the matter, appreciating the 
position it would place us in. 

Q. Place who in ? A. All of us as a Presbytery. 

Q. What did you say ; just work your mind now ; there is a 
problem that you can work on ? A. I cannot swear to that in- 
terview. 



303 



Q. Can you swear that you Lad an interview ? A. Oh ! yes, 
sir. 

Q. And all you can recollect is the simple fact that there was 
an interview, and you do not recollect anything about its na- 
ture ? A. That is about it ; because I had no reference to this 
matter in going there ; it was not on my mind at all. 

Q. Did not you spend the whole evening in talking on that 
subject? A. I spent an evening recently there. 

Q. No matter, I will get to that, when I get ready; didn't 
you spend the whole evening talking on the subject? A. It 
was not evening when I was there. 

Q. How long were you there ? A. I do not know. 

Q. An hour ? A. I think, perhaps, about an hour. 

Q, Didn't you consume all of the time in talking with him 
on that subject ? A. No, sir ; talked about other things ; the 
physician came in while I was T there and left him some medi- 
cine, and we talked about different treatment, and different 
schools of physicians. 

Q. And all you can now testify to is the naked fact that the 
subject was referred to, but what you said you do not know ? 
A. No, I do not know. 

Q. Didn't you go over in detail from the outset, in a long 
and detailed description of the case, and its relations to Dr. 
Tan Dyke, the counsel that you sought at Princeton, &c, &c, 
through the whole story ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You do not remember that you told the whole story, do 
you? A. I never detailed this story in its fullness to anjbody 
— that is, the members of the Presbytery — except to my per- 
sonal friends outside of the Presbytery ; the few I have spoken 
of. 

Q. Then you did not detail the story to Mr. St. John ? A. 
Not in its fullness, as I stated it here on the stand ; I never 
mentioned the fact of his calling Dr. Van Dyke a liar, nor 
others of those prominent items, that I have never told anybody 
that I know of. 

Presbytery adjourned. 

J. MILTON GEEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



304 



April 8th, 1879. 
Presbytery met according to adjournment, at 2 o'clock p. M. 
Mr. 1. W. Hathaway was recalled, and testified as follows : 
By Dr. Spear : 

You came back from Princeton to Brooklyn on the last 
Friday in December, 1876, is that so? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The next Sabbath you attended the Sabbath school of 
the Tabernacle Church, and was not pleased with the treat- 
ment you there received, particularly from Mr. Corwin ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. You soon after yisited Dr. Talmage, and from him sought 
an explanation of this treatment ; is that so ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Dr. Talmage informed you that Dr. Yan Dyke had told 
him that you had given him the data of the article which over 
the title of " Augustine " he had published in the Presbyterian 
in regard to the Tabernacle Church ; is that so ? A. That he 
told me this ? 

Q. Question repeated ? A. He told me that Dr. Yan Dyke 
had said that I had given him the data for an article ; I do not 
know anything about "Augustine." 

Q. For an article ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You have identified it as the article over the title 
" Augustine ?" A. I never saw the article, and do not know 
anything about the 

Q. You could not identify the article ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You indignantly denied having done so ; is that so ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Dr. Talmage said that Dr. Yan Dyke had said so, and 
that this had created some feeling against you, and that you 
had better see Mr. Corwin ; is that so ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You then went and saw Mr. Corwin, and on the next 
Friday evening you had an interview with the Session of the 
church, and the matter was talked over between you and the 
Session ; is that so ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The next Saturday morning you went to see Dr. Yan 
Dyke and asked him if he had told Dr. Talmage that you had 
revealed to him (Dr. Yan Dyke) the secrets of the Tabernacle 
Church ; is that so ? A. I believe that is all included in 
my testimony, and all that I swore to is true. 



305 



Q. "that is included ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Dr. Van Djk-e said to you that he had never told Dr. 
Talmage so; is that so? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You told Dr. Yan Dyke that Dr. Talmage said that he 
did tell you ; is that so ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Dr. Van Dyke then excitedly jumped from his cbair and 
said, " I never told him so ; Dr. Talmage came into this study 
" and charged me with publishing something untrue about him 
" and his church ; I said I got the facts from the officers of 
" the Tabernacle, and among the rest might have mentioned 
"the name of Hathaway;" is that so? A. Yes, sir ; excuse 
me 

Q. That is your exact language of your former testimony ? 
A. Yes, sir ; I was going to say in regard to the word " might," 
I would not swear to the exact word " might " there ; in sub- 
stance it is correct in every particular, that he either did 
or might have used my name. 

Q. He either did, or might ; one or the other ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Dr. Van Dyke further said that Dr. Talmage told him 
''Hathaway is a man that you can place no confidence in ; he 
" is a defaulter in the funds of the Tabernacle ;" is that so? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On the next Tuesday morning, you went and saw Dr. 
Talmage, and said to him, "What does this mean? Dr. 
" Van Dyke said you told him I was untrustworthy and proved 
" a defaulter in the funds of the Tabernacle ;" is that so ? A. 
Yes sir. 

Q. When you reached the word " defaulter " Dr. Talmage 
denied using that word, and said it was not in his vocabulary, 
and that Dr. Van Dyke had misinterpreted what he said ; is 
that so ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. After some further conversation between you and Dr. 
Talmage, relating to what the latter had said about you, you 
immediately went on that Tuesday morning from the house of 
Dr. Talmage to the study of Dr. Van Dyke ; is that so ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. After you had been there from three to five minutes Dr. 
Talmage came in ; is that so ? A. It is. 

Q. Dr. Van Dyke soon after said to Dr. Talmage, " You 
39 



306 



came into my study and said so and so," detailing what he 
had said, and when he came to the word " defaulter " Dr. Tal- 
mage denied using that word, and said it was not in his 
vocabulary ; is that so ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Dr. Talinage did not deny much more ; is that so ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Other than that that word was not in his vocabulary, 
and that he did not use the word "defaulter?" A. That is 
what I remember. 

Q. When Dr. Talmage made his denial Dr. Van Dyke said, 
" If you did not use the word ' defaulter,' you used words that 
carried the same idea to my mind ;" is that so ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Afterwards, Dr. Talmage said to you, " Hathaway, we 
" have always been friends, we might as well be friends still ;" 
is that so ? A. Yes, sir ; I wish to say that the exact words 
there — I don't want you to understand that in that last ques- 
tion I swore to the exact language, but words to that effect 
exactly ; in substance, that. 

Q. Either those words, " Hathaway, we have always been 
" friends ; w T e might as well still remain so "—either those or 
similar words? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Substantially the same thing ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. After leaving Dr. Van Dyke's study, on the Tuesday 
morning, you then waited until the next Friday evening, arid 
then met with the session of the Tabernacle Church ; is that 
so? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. At this meeting the whole difficulty between you and Dr. 
Talmage was settled by the adoption of a resolution on the 
part of the Session, which you agreed to accept as a final and 
satisfactory adjustment ; is that so ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. These events occurred in the early part of January, 
1877, now more than two years since ; is that so ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. You have ever since regarded the whole matter as set- 
tled, and have since met Dr. Talmage pleasantly, and he you 
pleasantly, so far as you have met at all ; is that so? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Now, Mr. Hathaway, when "did you first learn that this 
personal matter between you and Dr. Talmage, that had been 



307 



settled for more than two years, was to be revived again by 
anybody ? A. When Mr. Crosby told me that he should call 
me ; that he expected to call me as a witness. 

Q. You learned it, then, from Mr. Crosby ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. About what time was that ? A. It was subsequent to the 
matter coming before the Presbytery. 

Q. It was before]the specifications were framed, was it ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. It was while Mr. Crosby jwas Chairman of the inquiring 
committee ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It was a personal interview, was it ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What did you say to Mr. Crosby when he broached the 
subject, and what did he say to you ? A. I told him that my 
matter with Dr. Talmage was settled, and that I would have 
nothing to do with it. 

Q. That is what you said to him ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What did he say to you ? A. He said that was not for 
me to decide, whether I could have anything to do with it or 
not ; that I was a member of this Presbytery ; that I was 
bound to obey the order of this Presbytery ; that is all he had 
to say about it. 

Q. The Presbytery hadn't yet issued an order ? A. In case 
they did. 

Q. He anticipated an order, then ? A. If this case should 
go forward, he anticipated an order ; so I understood it. 

Q. Soon after this conversation, did you visit the Eev. Mr 
St. John and detail to him as near as you could the whole 
story, and expres to him your regret that this difficulty was to 
be raked up again ? A. I visited Mr. St. John. 

Q. How soon after this interview with Mr. Crosby? A. 
Well, sir, I do not know. 

Q. Come as near to it as you can? A. Perhaps a week ; 
Mr. St. John was sick, and I visited him because he was sick, 
and furthermore, I did not visit Mr. St. John with this matter 
in my mind at all, but called on him as a friend, and during 
the conversation this matter was alluded to ; I do not know 
how it came up, but we talked about it ; I regretted that I had 
anything to do with it, or would have to have anything to do 
with it, and so told him. 



308 



Q. Now, will you state all that you can recollect of your 
statements to Mr. St. John at that time ? Take your own 
time now for an exhaustive statement of what you said then? 
A. Well, I have been thinking about that since last night, 
Doctor, and it is impossible for me to recall the conversation 
with Mr. St. Johi] further than this, that in a general way I ex- 
pressed my dislike of being compelled to occupy this position, 
and that if I were situated so that I could avoid it, I should 
avoid it ; and then we talked generally about the Tabernacle, 
and about other churches, without any specific matters that I 
can think of. 

Q. Is that all ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Didn't you go into a detailed history of the whole affair, 
step by step, to Mr. St. John, at that time? A. No, sir; I 
never have to anybody. 

Q. Didn't you give him the details almost as fully as you 
have on the witness stand ? A. Oh ! no. 

Q. With the exception of the word " liar " applied to Dr. 
Yan Dyke ? A. Oh ! no, sir ; I may have told him the general 
outline of the matter — that Dr. Talmage had slandered me to 
Dr. Yan Dyke, and that Dr. Yan Dyke had told me, and that 
I had visited Dr. Talmage and demanded a retraction, and that 
I had received such a retraction in the Session ; I may have 
told him the outline like that ; I think I did. 

Q. Did you use the word retraction ? A. I always use that 
word in connection with it ; I do not know whether I used that 
with him or not ; I always so considered it, and have always 
so spoken of it ; I do not know what I said to Mr. St. John. 

(Mr. Millard reads the proceedings and the words contain- 
ing the resolution.) 

Q. Now, did you, a week ago last Monday, have another 
conversation with the Eev. Mr. St. John on the same subject? 
A. I was thinking of the night — whether that was the night or 
not; yes, it was Monday night, a week ago Monday night, I 
remember I started to attend a prayer meeting in the city 
here ; I walked down the street with Mr. St. John after the 
Presbytery adjourned ; he invited me to go home with him to 
tea ; I did so. 

Q. Please to state this conversation in full ? A. Well, sir, I 



309 



think it is about the same thing over again, that I stated at the 
previous interview ; I do not know that I can state it any more 
fully than that. 

Q. It is a recent conversation ? A. Yes, sir ; T. detailed to him 
this charge, I remember, very distinctly in his parlor and in 
his wife's presence ; that my case was — that I could show very 
clearly my relations with Dr. Talmage as being of the most 
friendly and cordial nature by his introduction of me to the 
Presbytery, by his introduction of me to the Sabbath School, 
by way of a subscription, by getting the letter which he wrote ; 
I told Mr. St. John that was my case; that that would be my 
individual defense in this matter; my relations that I could 
prove with Dr. Talmage being of the most pleasant character, 
and after I went away and up into the winter of 1876 ; and 
that then, upon my return, I heard of this slander, right in the 
face of these friendly relations, which very much astonished me. 

Q. This is what you said to Mr. St. John ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Go on ? A. And then there was the friendly relations, 
the friendly letter in the first place ; then was the slander ; 
then was the retraction in the resolution which has just been 
read, and I showed that clearly to Mr. St. John ; how that I 
had my retraction in full in black and white, in an official doc- 
ument, and that I should have it presented before this Pres- 
bytery when I was called. 

Q. Go on ; say all that you said, so far as you can recollect ? 
A. Well, I regretted the same ; I expressed myself in the 
same way that I did before ; my regret ; saying that I had 
just gone into a field of labor in Jersey, and that I had all that 
I could attend to there, and desired to devote myself to that 
woik ; that is, about all that I remember, sir. 

Q. Did you in that conversation say to Mr. St. John that 
you was between the upper and nether millstones, and that 
you did not know what to do ? A. No, sir ; I think not ; no, 
sir ; I said that at the time this occurrence took place, at the 
time of my visiting Mr. Talmage and Mr. Van Dyke, I then said 
that I felt I did not w T ant to get between the upper and the 
nether millstones ; that is the reason why I was so particular 
to detail the conversation I had with the one, and with the 
other, that there might be no contingency where I might be 
placed in a false .position. 



310 



Q. Did you in this conversation with Mr. St. John — the 
last one, I am speaking of — say you had been dragged into 
this case or this position by Mr. Crosby and Dr. Yan Dyke ? 
A. No, sir ; Mr. St. John said, I see it clearly ; you have been 
dragged in by them. 

Q. You did not use these words ? A. No ; he did. 

Q. Did you assent to that statement he made? A. I made 
no reply ; I assented to it by silence ; I said nothing. 

Q. Did you give him to understand that was your idea ? A. 
I can not tell what he under stood. 

Q. What did you suppose he would infer, if he said it, and 
you did not reply ; what do you suppose he would infer from 
your manner right there ? A. I would prefer not to swear to 
any suppositions of Mr. St. John or anybody else. 

Q. Did you, in the same conversation, tell the Rev. Mr. St. 
John that prior to the formulation of the charge and specifica- 
tion against Dr. Talmage, you had an interview with Mr. 
Crosby and Dr. Yan Dyke together ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you tell the Rev. Mr. St. John that in that interview 
this buried difficulty between you and Dr. Talmage, was 
talked over between you, Mr. Crosby and Dr. Yan Dyke ? A. 
Yes, sir ; what I told — 

Q. Answer that question ? A. Repeat the question. 
Q. Question repeated A. No, sir ; I did not use the word 
" buried." 

Q. I will strike out that word " buried," then ; this diffi- 
culty ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you tell the Rev. Mr. St. John in that same conver- 
sation, that after this difficulty had been talked over between 
Mr. Crosby, Dr. Yan Dyke and yourself, Dr. Yan Dyke said : 
" Well, well, put that matter in one of the specifications" or 
words to that effect ? A. No, sir ; I did not tell him that, be- 
cause that never occurred. 

Q. You told him no such thing, you are confident? A. I 
am confident ; no, sir ; because it never occurred. 

Q. Now is it your present opinion that there was any neces- 
sity or christian wisdom in raking up this old difficulty be- 
tween you and Dr. Talmage, that had been disposed of by a 
final and satisfactory adjustment, and making it one of the 



311 



Specifications of falsehood and deceit as charges against him 
by common fame, especially when you yourself was making no 
complaint; I want your opinion? A. What was your ques- 
tion ? 

Q. I will repeat it. (Repeated.) A. I have forgotten the 
first part of that question, sir. 

Q. I will keep reading until you do remember ? A. Doctor, 
do not understand me now that I am — 

Q. Not at all, not at all ; it is a perfectly pleasant interview 
—(question repeated)? A. Well, sir, if I had my say about it 
it would not have been done. 

Q. What ? A. Had I my say about it it would not have 
been done ; I cannot pronounce upon the wisdom of anybody 
else's action. 

Q. You would not think it wise ? A. I would not have 
done it. 

Q. Why not ? A. Because 1 had other things to attend to 
which I thought would be much more profitable to me. 

Q. Would you think it expedient for anybody to do it? A. 
I do not want to express an opinion about it. 

Q. To dig up an old difficulty which had been buried ; what 
is your opinion about it ; would you think it wise ? A. I will 
answer now as my final answer ; I think my own opinion is 
that I would not have done it ; I shall not pass an opinion 
upon the action of any other man. 

Q. Does not the action of Mr. Crosby in reference to the 
matter of this 4th specification as known to yourself, strike 
you as showing in the circumstances a very peculiar and ex- 
traordinary zeal to hunt up matters for accusation against Dr. 
Talmage? A. Web, sir, I decline to answer that. 

Q. Well, sir, you can ; I had the privilege of asking the 
question ; still further, didn't you in your last conversation 
with Rev. Mr. St. John, after telling him the whole story of 
your difficulty with Dr. Talmage and its settlement, your in- 
terviews with Mr. Crosby and your interview with Mr. Crosby 
and Dr. Van Dyke, say to Eev. Mr. St. John that you were in 
great perplexity and asked advice from him ? A. I do not re- 
member that ; no, sir ; I do not think I asked his advice ; I 
acted on my own responsibility and judgment ; I knew there 
was only one thing to do. 



312 



Q. Now, a series of miscellaneous questions, Mr. Hathaway; 
state what positions you held in the Brooklyn Tabernacle ? A. 
All the positions ? 

Q. Yes, the whole of them ? A. Well, sir, the first one was 
teacher of the Sabbath School, and the second a member of 
the church, if that is a position ; the third, President of the 
Young People's Association; fourth, an elder; fifth, Assistant 
Secretary of the Board of Trustees ; sixth, I did pastoral 
work ; the Assistant Secretary of the Board of Trustees would 
cover the work of pew-letting or assigning ; Assistant Superin- 
tendent of the Sabbath School ; I do not know of any other. 

Q. Did you have a salary at any time ? A. I had a com- 
mission. 

Q A commission on what ? A. On the receipts from the 
subscriptions, or pew rentals, as some called it. 

Q. That is, you received a percentage 1 A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much ? A. I received ten per cent, upon the first 
$10,000, and fifteen per cent, upon all additional. 

Q. Then the larger the amount of money received, the larger 
the percentage and greater the aggregate to you? A. Yes, sir; 
that was the idea in giving that to me. 

Q. So it was to your interest to make the aggregate as much 
as possible ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you represent yourself as the assistant pastor ? A. 
No, sir ; I frequently said that I was acting in that capacity ; 
there is no such office in the Presbyterian Church, as I under- 
stand it. 

Q. What did you mean by saying that you were acting in 
that capacity ? A. I was doing pastoral work ; Mr. Talmage 
frequently spoke to me in that way ; used that expression. 

Q. Then you were not in fact assistant pastor ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Were you at this time a minister of the gospel ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. When were you first ordained as a minister ? A. A short 
time ago. 

Q. Since this trial began ? A. No. 
Q. Before? A. Before. 

Q. Are you preaching anywhere now ? A. Yes, sir. 



313 



Q. Where ? A. Jersey City. 

Q. Were you a student in the Lay College while you were 
acting with the Tabernacle Church ? A. For a very short 
time. 

Q. How long ? A. Six weeks, perhaps. 

Q. Was the Lay College under the superintendence of the 
Brooklyn Ta.bernacle — supervision, I mean? A. Financially 
it was. 

Q. Depended upon the Brooklyn Tabernacle for its support? 
A. I so understood it ; yes ; I really knew [but little about it, 
but I so understood it. 

Q. Now, Mr. Hathaway, when was it that you conceived 
the idea of becoming a minister of the gospel ; was it while 
you were acting with the Tabernacle Church and the Lay Col- 
lege there? A. No, sir; it was twenty years ago. 

Q. You had not carried the idea into any practical form until 
recently? A. No, sir. 

Q. You said yesterday that the influences at the Tabernacle 
were contaminating while you were there ; do you think that 
such influence was beneficial to one desiring to go into the 
ministry, to Princeton Seminary? A. I. often said that my 
schooling in all these several capacities that I have just de- 
tailed to you, in the Brooklyn Tabernacle, were equally valu- 
able to me with that which I received at Princeton ; I bal- 
ance them about even. 

Q. What did you mean when you said yesterday — when 
you spoke of the contamination of the Brooklyn Tabernacle to 
you ? A. Well, sir, there were some influences there that were 
very contaminating ; I didn't say where they were. 

Q. What were they ? A. There were some influences there, 
and some persons there, that I thought their influence was 
bad. 

Q. You spoke of it as a general condition of things ? A. I 
don't know, sir; if you read the matter, perhaps I could tell. 

Q. Did you make any complaint to Dr. Ta^mage or to any 
one about these contaminating influences? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. To whom ? A. Dr. Talmage. 

Q. When ? A, Well, at the time this difficulty was under 
advisement. 
40 



314 



Q. Between you and Dr. Talmage? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Any one else ? A. Not that I think of now, sir. 

Q. At any other time did you speak to Dr. Talmage of these 
contaminating influences ? A. Not that I know of. 

Q. Have you ever made any complaint to any members of 
this Presbytery about these influences, or spoken of it ? A. I 
do not know, sir, whether I have or not. 

Q. Were you an elder in that church ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It these facts were before you, ought yon not to have 
taken some action in the matter ? A. Pardon me, your ques- 
tion has recalled to mind another matter that I did think was 
wrong there, that I protested against ; do you want to hear 
that, 

Q. Go on ; I want to get all the truth out of you? A. What 
was your question, please. 

Q. I say, if such influences existed, was it not your duty as 
an elder to protest against them ; to bring them to the atten- 
tion of the pastor ? A. Yes, it was. 

Q. And did you do it ? A. In some instances I did. 

Q. Well, do you want to go further than that ? A. Yes, sir ; 
if 3^ou want me to tell wherein I did, I will tell you. 

Q. Go on, I will hear you ? A. Well, sir, I protested 
against the manner in which the members were received into 
the Brooklyn Tabernacle, which was one thing which I thought 
was a great wrong, and my suggestions were not heeded; I 
made this protest, perhaps, a dozen times, but it was not 
heeded, and I was a young man, a new elder ; here was Father 
Pearson and Captain Leigh ton, these old men, that I deferred 
to ; we young men did not say much in the Session ; did not 
presume to, sir. 

Q. Did you receive any money from the Brooklyn Taber- 
nacle, and if so, how much ? A. When ? 

Q. At any time ? A. I received my percentage. 

Q. How much did it amount to ? A. I do not remember, 
sir, the amount ; I think it amounted to about $2,000 a year. 

Q. Was that your only means of support? A. At that 
time. 

Q. How came you to go to Princeton ; won't you just detail 
the facts minutely as you can ; who suggested it to you ; just 



315 



bring out the whole thing ? A. Well, sir, I would be glad to 
do so ; I will have to go back a little to do that, Doctor ; just a 
little way ; I accepted my position in the Brooklyn Tabernacle 
with the understanding that I should study for the ministry ; 
that was the only inducement that led me to accept the posi- 
tion in the Tabernacle at all, because I could not give up my 
business relations to work for the Tabernacle and then go 
back to my business again ; my relations would be broken, and 
therefore it was the understanding when I commenced for the 
Brooklyn Tabernacle that I was to study for the ministry ; I 
did not then intend to go to Princeton, but intended to fit my- 
self without going to Princeton. 

Q. That was the understanding between you and the Brook- 
lyn Tabernacle ? A. Between me and those I talked with, but 
not the Lay College ; for a time I studied privately, had pro- 
fessors come to my house to whom I recited, and after study- 
ing in this way a little while I became satisfied I did not pre- 
pare myself as I ought to be prepared, without going to the 
seminary and taking a thorough course, and so when the 
Assembly met in the Brooklyn Tabernacle, and I met a great 
many ministers from different parts of the country, and talked 
with them in relation to the work generally, my mind was 
more stirred up in the work, so that immediately after the 
Assembly I spoke to Dr. Talmage about taking a thorough 
theological course, and his answer was : " Oh, you are pre- 
" pared well enough now ; wade right in up to your chin and you 
" will be all right ; I will get you a place, and you go to 
"preaching right away." 

Q. Did the Tabernacle A. I have not got through, Doc- 
tor ; I told him that might do for him, but it would not do for 
me ; I feel that I should fail in such an attempt ; I then called 
on Dr. Van Dyke and asked him as to preparation for the 
ministry without suggesting Princeton, and he says : " Why 
" don't you go to Princeton ?" I said : " I cannot go to Prince- 
" ton ; I have a family to support, and I must earn some- 
" thing ;" " Well," he says, " I think there will be a way opened 
" for you to go to Princeton, and I advise you to go and see 
" them ; I will give you a letter of introduction ;" and he en- 
couraged me so much without knowing how it could be ac- 




complished that I felt quite hopeful of going to Princeton ; I 
then consulted with Dr. Talmage again, and consulted with 
other friends, and I found that everywhere I was met with 
kindness and encouragement —substantial encouragement — and 
therefore I made my arrangements to go, and I went. 

Q. Did the Tabernacle furnish you with any money for this 
purpose — to carry out this idea ? A. They agreed to ; the 
Sabbath School did ; they furnished me a small portion of it. 

Q. Did you receive any favors from the Tabernacle or Dr. 
Talmage, after you say he slandered you, after this difficulty 
began V A. From whom ? 

Q. From the Tabernacle or Dr. Talmage, after you say he 
slandered you ? A. I received -no favors from Dr. Talmage or 
the Tabernacle ; I received a portion of the money that I did 
receive on that pledge after that. 

Q. How much did you receive from the Sunday school? 
A. All told? 

Q. Yes, sir? A. About $300. 

Q. How much was subscribed ? A. $500 a year for two 
years. 

Q. Do you know why you did not receive the balance ? A. 
No, sir ; I never knew. 

Q. Have you ever been informed why you did not ? A. No, 
sir ; it has been a great mystery to me. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage urge the Sabbath school to subscribe 
this $500? A. He did. 

Q. Just state the circumstances? A. I called on my friends 
in relation to going to Princeton, and Mr. John F. Talmage 
said that he would aid me ; I called on Mr. Sillcocks, and he said 
he would aid me ; Mr. Hobbs said he would aid me ; Mr. Corwin 
said he could not aid me personally, but that he could through 
the Sabbath school, and that they would make a subscription 
for me and that the dominie would come down and endorse 
it, and I asked the dominie about it, and he said certainly he 
would come down, and he did come down and made an elo- 
quent appeal, and the money was subscribed generously and 
immediately, very much to my surprise ; it surprised me with 
the readiness with which it was subscribed ; a resolution was 
offered by Mr. Freeman, to which Dr. Talmage and Mr. Cor- 
win spoke, that resulted in this subscription. 



317 



Q. That is about the substance ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. About bow much money was paid you by the Tabernacle 
Trustees, after you went to Princeton ? A. I do not know, 
sir. 

Q. Was any? A. I think there was a little balance. 

Q. That was paid to you ? A. I think so ; paid to me about 
the time I went ; that is on my commission account I mean ; 
is that what you mean, sir? 

Q. I suppose your own experience would supply the occa- 
sion; how much money was paid to you by the Tabernacle 
Trustees, after you went to Princeton ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Was there any? A. Yes, sir; there was a small amount, 
the balance that was due me. 

Q. You said you had a diagram of the pews of the church, 
with the prices attached thereto ; from whom did you get this 
diagram and who made it ; under whose authority ? A. The 
Board of Trustees. 

Q. Did you prepare it yourself? A. No, sir. 

Q. And the price of each pew was attached? A. Marked 
right in on the diagram. 

Q. Did you ever show this diagram to Dr. Talmage? A. It 
always lay open on my table where I was— during office hours 
Dr. Talmage was sometimes there. 

Q. Did you ever show this diagram to Dr. Talmage, or call 
his attention to it? A. I don't know that I did specifically. 

Q. Do you know that he ever had any knowledge of its ex- 
istence ? A. Oh, yes. 

Q. How do you know that? A. Because it was so 
thoroughly talked of all the time with the Board of Trustees, 
and they were talking with Dr. Talmage in relation to their 
plan and his plan, which were antagonizing each other con- 
stantly, and causing more or less difficulty. 

Q. What do you mean by their plan ? A. The Board of 
Trustees' plan was to approach as near as possible to pew 
rentals, and they would have gone square over to pew rental 
at any time, if not for the brake Dr. Talmage put upon it. 

Q. What was his plan? A. His plan was to call it a free 
church. 

Q. And have it a free church? A. Well, he knew it could 



318 



not be a free church in every sense of the word ; I have no 
doubt that Dr. Talinage would have been very glad to have it 
a free church ; that was his idea, if it could be supported on 
his basis. 

Q. Don't you know that was his pet idea all through his 
ministry? A. Yes, sir; I know he talked about it a great 
deal. 

Q. Don't you know that was his pet idea all through his 
ministry, and that he resisted every effort to make it other- 
wise? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That is the fact, isn't it? A. Yes, sir ; I know he always 
opposed going over to pew rentals, square. 

Q. Did you ever urge any parties in assiguing pews to them 
with fixed prices as you say, to pay more for their sittings than 
the amount fixed ? A. Never made any special urgent appeal ; 
when they came up to that point I was always satisfied. 

Q. Did you urge any parties to do more than just to pay 
the amount? A. Sometimes we got more than was marked in 
the diagram, by reason of the parties being of a generous 
character, and paying more than was marked without knowing 
anything about it, perhaps. 

Q. Still, you don't answer my question ; did you actually 
solicit and press upon parties the idea of giving more— upon 
any parties ? A. No ; not after they would come up to the 
amount marked in the diagram ; I did not urge them above 
that ; my instructions from the Board of Trustees was to get 
the price marked in the diagram, or else not assign until I had 
reported to them. 

Q. Don't you know, Mr. Hathaway, that members of the 
church — quite a number of them — took serious exception to 
your way of renting the pews, as you called it ? A. I did not 
call it renting pews. 

Q. I think you have used that phrase, assigning pews ? A. 
Assigning pews, yes, sir ; what is your question again ? 

Q. Did members of the church — I don't know how many, 
but some — take serious exception to your way ? A. Yes, sir ; 
there was a good deal of squirming all around. 

Q. Is it or not a fact that several families left the church by 
reason of your action in that matter ? A. There was undoubt- 



319 



edly some that left the church because they were pressed too 
hard for their pews; I have letters here showing that they 
had left ou that account ; but it was not 1113^ action ; it was the 
action of the Board of Trustees. 

Q. Did you ever show any of those letters to Dr. Talmage? 
A. I talked with him about it. 

Question repeated. A. I don't know that I ever showed 
him the letters. 

Q. The letters you got you never brought to his knowledge ? 
A. I don't know that I did ; I won't swear that I did ; I talked 
with him about several parties, I remember. 

Q. Do you remember ever telling Dr. Talmage that parties 
were leaving the church because of the plan adopted for as- 
signing or renting the pews ? A. Yes, .sir. 

Q. Did you speak frequently in. that way? A, No, not fre- 
quently ; sometimes the matter was talked over — that parties 
were leaving ; and we thought it was good riddance ; that we 
would get parties that were better. • 

Q. Did you ever explain to Dr. Talmage the plan of assign- 
ing pews in the church ? A. The Board of Trustees explained 
it to him in my presence. 

Q. Did you ? A. Not specifically. 

Q. Did you ever hear it explained to him ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. By whom ? A. By the different members of the Board. 
Q. Name them? A. Mr. Pearson, Mr. Sillcocks, I think. 
Q. Go on ? A. They all talked it. 

Q. Give us the names ? A. Well, the names of the Board 
were B. F. Corwin, Jno. F. Talmage 

Q. No ; you said they did ; give the names ? A. B. F. Cor- 
win, Jno. F. Talmage, R. S. Hobbs, Warren S. Sillcocks, 
Henry L. Foote — those are the only ones, so far as I know. 

Q. Did you pay any pew rental, or pew rent, while connect- 
ed with the Brooklyn Tabernacle ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On what pew ? A. I don't remember the number of the 
pew. 

Q. How much did you pay? A. I don't remember, sir. 

Q. Are you sure you did pay ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I think I asked you the question whether you showed 
Dr. Talmage any of those letters you have spoken of? A. You 
first asked me that a moment ago. 



320 

Q. Didn't Dr. Talmage absolutely and uniformly refuse to 
sanction or adopt any plan of the Trustees which contemplated 
pew rentals, or auctioning the pews to the highest bidder? A. 
I heard Mr. Talmage state rrom the platform one day — this 
matter had been talked over — it was so frequently talked to 
Dr. Talmage, in relation to the renting of the pews, or assign- 
ing them with specific reference to the dollar question, that he 
did for a time abstain from announcing that they were assigned 
without reference to the dollar question, and then he would 
take it up again and announce it ; I heard him announce one 
day, though, emphatically, after there had been some conversa- 
tion between the Board of Trustees in relation to it, that if 
ever that church, if ever the pews were auctioned there, when 
the mallet should fall, after he was dead and gone, he would 
turn over in his coffin. 

Q. (HandiDg paper to witness.) Is that a form of the ap- 
plication prepared ? A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Millard reads : 
" Mr. I. W. Hathaway, Assistant Secretary : 

Sir — The undersigned desires securing for the year com- 
mencing February 1, 1876, all sittings in pew 152, and hereby 
agrees to pay for the support of the Gospel, fifty dollars, pay- 
able in installments. 

Name, G. W. YAN DOLAN." 

Q. Now, is there a word of that application that refers to 
the dollar question in the sense in which Dr. Talmage was dis- 
claiming it in his public announcement ? A. That you can 
judge of better than I can. 

Q. I ask you ? A. Will you let me see one of those ; it has 
been so long since I familiarized myself with them that I for- 
get ; this application was worded on purpose to verbally dodge 
the question of pew rentals — so that it could not be said that 
we rented pews. 

Q. Who did that ? A. This was given me by the Board of 
Trustees, sir. 

Q. And the Board of Trustees verbally perpetrated a dodge ? 
A. They knew all the time — this was the idea that prevailed 
in the Brooklyn Tabernacle in the minds of the Board of 
Trustees, in my mind, and in everybody else's mind, that to 



321 



all intents and purposes we were charging for the pews, but to 
the world we were running a free church. 

Q. How do you know the Trustees knew that ? A. Why, 
because it was talked always. 

Q. The Trustees said so ? A. Yes. sir. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage make his announcement about a free 
church to the world ? A. I think he did. 

Q. In the public press ? A. It was reported in his remarks 
on the platform. 

Q. Where did he make the announcement? A. From the 
platform. 

Q. To whom ? A. To the people there present. 
Q. To his own congregation? A. All that were within hear- 
ing, I suppose. 

Q. Did they understand the announcement? A. They un- 
derstood his language. 

Q. Did they understand the practice ? A. Of the Trus- 
tees ? 

Q. Did they understand the practice in that church ? A. 
Let me understand exactly whom you mean by " they ?" 

Q. I mean the people that worship there in his congrega- 
tion ? A. Yes, sir ; they all understood it thoroughly. 

Q. Understood what? A. The antagonism between the 
practice and the profession. 

Q. Did they understand the language of Dr. Talmage ? A. 
No ; because they let the Trustees go forward and carry out 
their notions. 

Q. Did that deceive the people there ? A. No ; because 
they got so used to it they knew better. 

Q. So that if he had sung a psalm or made a prayer or said 
anything else, so far as the people were concerned, it would 
have been as innocent ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. There was actually then, no deception? A. No, sir; I 
don't think anybody was deceived at all. 

Q. Do you think Dr. Talmage was conscious of lying when 
he made these statements ? A. No, sir ; I have never looked 
into his conscience. 

Q. Do you know that he was not? A. Seeing you have 
asked that question, I will say no ; but I think he was so ac- 
41 



322 

customed to hyperbole and extravaganza that he didn't think 
he was lying. 

Q. That is your honest opinion ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, if a man don't know when he lies, does he lie at 
all ? A. Well, sir, you must take some older theologian than 
I am to answer that ; I think when a man tells a lie so large 
that nobody believes him, there is no sin in it, because the sin 
lies in the deception ; and you can deceive with a look, which 
is a lie. 

Q. It is in the intended deception, isn't it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Then if there is no intended deception there is no lying, 
is there, in a criminal sense ? A. Well, yes, sir ; I can hardly 
accept that casuistry ; if there is no intention, so far as the man 
himself is merely concerned there would be no lie, but still he 
would be accountable for the mischief he would do to others. 

Q. Suppose I speak the truth and intend to lie, do I both 
speak the truth and lie ? A. Please state that again. 

Q. If I speak the truth, as a matter of fact, and then intended 
to lie ; can a man do both at the same time ? A. Yes, sir ; he 
does both at the same time ; he lies to himself and speaks the 
truth to the world ; his own conscience is lied to, but the out- 
side world is not. 

Q. He lies in the intention of his mind, and speaks the truth 
as a fact? A. The subjective effect is a lie, and the objective 
effect is the truth. 

Q. Who attends to the temporal affairs of the church ? A. 
Mr. Moderator, is this a theological examination ? 

Q. Who attends to the temporal affairs of this church ; the 
rentals of pews, etc. ? A. Now ? 

Q. Yes. A. I don't know. 

Q. Who did? A. I dfd. 

Q. It was under the management of the Trustees and their 
appointees? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Not the pastor ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage know everything you and the Trustees 
did in regard to this matter ? A. Pretty much. 

Q. How do you know that ? A. Because he met with us so 
often. 

Q. And the thing was talked over between you ? A. Yes, 
sir. 



323 



Q. 1 think you spoke of a Mr. Lottridge giving up his pew, 
and going into the gallery, didn't you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Will you explain that matter? A. Well, he didn't pay 
up to the diagram, and the pew would bring more money, and 
the financial interests of the church demanded Ave should get 
more money; we needed money, and, therefore, Mr. Lottridge 
could have a good seat in the gallery for the amount he could 
pay, and somebody else would pay a good deal more to have 
his seat down- stairs. 

Q. You also spoke of Mr. Whittemore ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, give the facts there. A. I think it is the same, sir ; 
I think the Trustees were honestly endeavoring to raise the 
finances of the church, and they did not think Dr. Talmage's 
plan would work ; they thought it was a vagary ; they thought 
the church would go up, unless they adopted some more sub- 
stantial measures. 

Q. Did Mr. Lottridge leave of his own accord, or was he 
compelled to do so ? A, To go up-stairs ? 

Q. Yes, sir ; did he vacate the pew spontaneously? A. In 
one sense ; there was no absolute compulsion ; no one was 
taken by a police officer and taken out of the pew. 

Q. Was he required by the Trustees to do so ? A. Not in 
so many words, but virtually. 

Q. Was there any pressure brought to bear upon him to 
that effect? A. Oh, yes. 

Q. What was it ? A. Oh, he was plead with and talked 
with, and told that the interests of the church demanded that 
he should not stand in the way of their getting more money, 
and that he ought to go up-stairs and be willing to sacrifice 
his own convenience a little for the benefit of the church. 

Q. Now, in your letter, or rather in your conversations with 
Mrs. Talmage, did you tell her, or give her, a letter, saying, 
that if Mr. Whittemore did not pay more he would have to 
give up his pew ? A. In a letter? I did not write Mrs. Tal- 
mage a letter. 

Q. In your conversation about it ? A. The fact about that 
matter in connection with Mrs. Talmage 

Q. Mrs. Whittemore ? A. There was no Mrs. Whittemore. 

Q. Mr. Whittemore ? A. I thought you asked me about 
Mrs. Talmage. 



324 



Q. You had a conversation with her about it? A. Yes, sir ; 
I did. 

Q. Go on. A. In the Board of Trustees I always reported 
those persons whom I could not raise to the desired amount ; 
Mr. Whittemore was among that number ; the Board of Trus- 
tees instructed me to bring the things to bear to compel them 
to pay more ; I use the word " compel " here, not in its stroDg- 
est sense ; but he was to pay more or take some less desirable 
seat — that is, less desirable in the sense of being financially a 
good seat to procure finances from. 

Q. Now, in this case of Mr. Whittemore, was it not a fact 
that the exchange of pews was entirely voluntas on his part? 
A. Oh, no, sir. 

Q. Hear me through ; entirely voluntary on his part, and 
going into the gallery also, in order that some other persons 
less interested in the church, might come in and fill his seat 
there that would be likely to go into the gallery ? A. He felt 
very sore about it, and did not take another seat ; I think his 
sisters sat in Mrs. Talmage's seat. 

Q. Did you ever state to any of the pew holders, that the 
more they paid the more percentage you would get ? A. No, 
sir ; I kept that very quiet. 

Q. Did you not tell Mr. Lottridge this very thing that I 
have asked you ? A. No, sir ; never ; I didn't tell anybody ; 
I didn't think anybody knew I got a commission until to-day, 
outside of the officers ; I never told them. 

Q. Do you know anything about the Richardson family 
leaving the church ? A. The Richardsons ? where did they 
live? 

Q. I don't know, sir; I want the information from you? A. 
I am poor at names, but good at numbers ; if you can tell me 
something about where they live, I think I can tell you ; I don't 
recollect them at all. 

Q. You cannot state the facts at all ? A. No ; the matter 
don't come to my mind at all. 

Q. You have spoken of the Young People's Association of 
the Tabernacle Church ; will you explain that association, its 
nature and object, and what it was? A. Well, sir, the object 
of the Young People's Association — the first and central object 



325 



was to nurture the religious sentiment among the young 
people ; and in connection with that we had our social com- 
mittee and our entertainment committees ; we gave entertain- 
ments, we gave socials ; we maintained our weekly prayer- 
meeting, we gave our anniversary report, &c. ; general culture, 
social and religious. 

Q. Were you ever elected President of that association ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you at that time a teacher of the Bible class? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Did the class belong to the association ? A. Partially ; 
no, sir ; not half of it, about half, perhaps. 

Q. Who was President before yourself ? A. Mr. Buys. 

Q. Can you tell how the officers of that association are 
elected ? A. By ballot of the men ibers. 

Q. Did you ask Mr. Buys to name you as Chairman of the 
nominating committee, to make up a ticket to be voted for at 
any time ? A. That I don't know, sir. 

Q. Do you recollect whether you did or not ? A. No, sir ; I 
don't recollect anything about it ; I didn't nominate myself, 
however, Doctor. 

Q. Did you make up a ticket at any time, and recommend it 
to be elected by the association ? A. I think I did. 

Q. Whom did you name for President ? A. I named Mr. 
McCoy. 

Q. Give the other names on that ticket ? A. I don't re- 
member the other names ; I know Mr. McCoy was placed at 
the head ; Mr. McCoy came to my office and asked me to place 
him at the head of that ticket before he went west ; he was 
gone at the time ; I did so. 

Q. Did you promise to give him your support for that elec- 
tion? A. I think I did. 

Q. And the support of your class ? A. No, sir ; I didn't 
promise him anything about the class. 

Q. Did yon urge him to become a candidate ? A. No, sir ; 
he urged me to make him a candidate in my office in New 
York. 

Q. You say he left before the election and went west ? A. 
Yes, sir ; he did ; that was the first time I was elected, that 
you allude to now, the fall of 1873. 



226 



Q. Did you promise bim to take care of bis interests as a 
candidate during bis absence ? A. I made no special pledge ; 
I said I would favor tbe nomination, wbich I did. 

Q. He was not present at tbe election, was be ? A. No, sir. 

Q. How many tickets were voted for at tbat time? A. I 
don't know anything about it ; do you mean bow many candi- 
dates ? 

Q. "Was there more than one ticket? A. Oh, yes, sir. 

Q. Can you giv° tbe names of each of tbe tickets? A. No, 
sir ; I know my name was on one. 

Q. Who was elected President? A. I was. 

Q. When did you become a candidate? A. I never became 
a candidate ; that is, not at tbat election. 

Q. Did you inform Mr. McCoy that you would be a candi- 
date against him ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you not know that your action in this matter caused 
Mr. McCoy to leave tbe church ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you inform Dr. Talmage of your action in this mat- 
ter ? A. What action do you mean ? 

A. In reference to the election of Mr. McCoy and your own 
election ; in reference to tbat election. A. I don't know any- 
thing about that. 

Q. No conversation with him ? A. I say I don't know. 

Q. Did you hear of any complaint by any one of your action 
in this matter at the time or afterwards ? A. Mr. McCoy felt 
badly when be came back and found tbat he was not elected. 

Q. Didn't Mr. Shelley and others come to you and tell you 
that you were not an honorable man to have acted as you did 
under the circumstances ? A. Well, sir, I don't know. 

Q. Do you know whether they did or not ? A. No, I do 
not ; I think not, though. 

Q. Were you again elected in 1875 ? A. I was elected in 
1874 and 1875 both. 

Q. Prior to the last election did you say you would not be a 
candidate again ? A. Yes, sir ; I said so from the platform at 
the time Vice-President Wilson was with us ; I said I should 
resign from the candidacy for that position. 

Q. That another gentleman might be the candidate ? Who 
was be ? A. I didn't name any one ; I simply declined to be 
a candidate. 




Q. Did you afterwards become a candidate ? A. Yes, sir ; 
I can tell you the reasons why, if you wish. 



Q. Did you put tickets into the field for yourself and then 
Avork for them ? A. No, sir ; never. 

Q. Did you not tell parties just prior to the election that 
your defeat would be very painful to Dr. Talmage, to induce 
them to vote for you, or words to that effect ? A. I don't 
know. 

Q. Do you know whether you did or not ? A. No ; I may 
have done so ; that is, I may have alluded to it in some way ; 
I won't say that I said it would be very painful to him ; I 
would like you to know why ; I will tell you why. 

Q. Was it not a fact that Mr. Buys withdrew as a candidate 
on the very night of the election? A. Oh, I don't know; my 
memory is pretty good, Doctor, but it is pretty hard work to 
canvass ten years every step. 

Q. Well, I will put another question : Do you recollect that 
members of the association came to you and complained to 
you of your action in respect tc that election ? A. Oh, sir, we 
used to have almost as exciting times at an election there as 
you would at the election of the Mayor. 

Q. Did they complain to you that your action was dishon- 
orable ; do you remember anything about it ? A. Yes, sir ; I 
think there was something of that kind, because they did not 
understand the circumstances ; that is the reason ; they all 
wanted to be President and they couldn't. 

Q. We will show the circumstances when our turn comes ; 
now, did Dr. Talmage treat you while you were connected with 
the Tabernacle Church kindly or otherwise ? A. Always 
kindly. 

Q. When was your first difference with Dr. Talmage ? A. 
After Dr. Van Dyke had told me what he did. 

Q. About the letter in the Presbyterian? A. Yes, sir ; when 
Dr. Van Dyke said Dr. Talmage had slandered me ; that was 
the first. 

Q. Was this before or after the letter to the Presbyterian 
making statements about the Brooklyn Tabernacle? A. What 
after ? 

Q. I asked you when your first difference was ; now, was 



328 



this before or after that letter ? A. It must have been aftei 
the letter ; because I never saw the letter, and don't know any- 
thing about it or when it was. 

Q. Do you know when the letter appeared ? A. No, sir. 

Q. It was 1876 — November 4 th. A. I am glad to know it. 

Q. Happy to give you the information. Didn't Dr. Talmage 
accuse Dr. Van Dyke of being a liar and you of being untruth- 
ful until after this letter of Dr. Van Dyke's in the Presbyterian ? 
A. Oh, I think not. 

Q. It was after that ? A, I think it was. 

Q. Were the statements in that letter of Dr. Van Dyke to 
the Presbyterian true in every particular ? A. I never saw it 
and don't know what it is. 

Q. You never read it ? A. No, sir ; I don't know what the 
statements are. 

Q. Did you ever give any of these statements to Dr. Van 
'Dyke ? A. I never gave Dr. Van Dyke one item ; never. 

Q. Did Dr. Van Dyke give statements to you and ask if they 
were not correct? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What statements did he make? A. He stated to me, he 
asked me, if that was not the indebtedness of the Brooklyn 
Tabernacle ; he asked me something about the indebtedness 
of the Brooklyn Tabernacle ; I answered him not a word ;then 
he says, " I will tell you what it is," and he raised his hands in 
this way (illustrating it), and he said, " the first mortgage is 
$35,000 ; the second mortgage is $35,000 ; the first mortgage on 
the Lay College is $20,000 ; the second mortgage on the Lay 
College is $15,000— making $105,000." 

Q. He had got the information ? A. He had got the infor- 
mation, where I did not know and do not know to-day; and 
because he'mentioned my 1 name, Dr. Talmage very naturally 
thought that I had emptied myself to Dr. Van Dyke, which I 
never did. 

Q. Is it not a fact that all these unpleasant allusions in the 
interview between yourself, Dr. Talmage and Dr. Van Dyke 
grew out of Dr. Van Dyke's letter to the Presbyterian ? A. 
Well, I cannot tell anything about that. 

Q. In all probability that was the starting cause ? A. So 
far as I know it is ; that is what Dr. Talmage told me. 



329 



Q. Did you tell Dr. Talmage that you gave any statements 
to Dr. Van Dyke upon which he based his letter ? A. No, sir; 
I indignantly denied ever giving him anything; but I did assent 
to the fact that it was so ; I did not tell a lie, when Dr. Van 
Dyke said it is so. 

Q. You admitted those to be facts ? A. I did ; yes sir. 

Q. You say that Dr. Talmage confessed that he said some- 
thing about you which if false was slanderous? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now give us the exact words, wdiere and when and what ? 
A. Dr. Talmage said he had been led to suppose that my in- 
debtedness in Brooklyn was several thousands of dollars from 
what he had heard, and when I told him it was only one hun- 
dred and fifty to two hundred dollars, why then he thought he 
had slandered me as I understood him. 

Q. When did he say that ? A. In the interview I had with 
him at his house. 

Q. After this difficulty arose ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you been in the habit of speaking disparagingly of 
Dr. Talmage ? A. No, sir ; I think not. 

Q. Did you not tell Mr. St. John a week ago last Monday, 
that you believed Dr. Talmage a godly man that would not 
tell a lie ? A. No sir ; oh no. 

Q. You said no such thing? A. Oh, no ; I can tell you 

Q. No, matter ; you didn't say that ? A. No. 

Q. Or anything to that effect ? A. It depends upon what 
you call to that effect ; I did not say that. 

Q. You did not use language to convey that idea ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Didn't you also say to Mr. St. John that Dr. Talmage 
was as honest as any man in Brooklyn ? A. No. 

Q. Nor any words that conveyed that idea ? A. No, I have 
never said it since this matter between Dr. Van Dyke and Dr. 
Talmage ; my faith has been so shaken that I have never said 
that since. 

Q. Are you a member of this body ? A. I am. 

Q. Do you propose to vote on the guilt or innocence of Dr. 
Talmage ? A. That I do not care to answer, sir. 

Q. Do you consider that you can vote impartially, or for his 
acquittal after the testimony you have given, and after what 
42 



330 



you have said about him and what he has said about you ? A. 
I think I can vote impartially as a christian man upon the evi- 
dence, whether it be my own or anybody else's. 

Q. When did you first learn that there were rumors affecting 
your character in circulation in Brooklyn ? A. New Years Day 
1876. 

Q. Didn't you learn it earlier than that? A. No, sir. 

Q. Whom did you learn that from ? A. I first learned it 
from Mrs. McLean. 

Q. In this City ? A. Yes, sir ; that is the first indication I 
had of it. 

Q. Did you receive any letters while you were in Princeton 
from Brooklyn calling attention to the fact, and if so from 
whom ? A. Not before that. 

Q. Not before New Year's Day, 1877 ? A. No. 

Q. Did you afterwards ? A. Letters calling my attention to 
the fact that there were rumors afloat ? no, I don't think I 
did ; I knew all about it after I had been down here ; I spent 
two or three weeks here, you know, at that time ; I received a 
letter before that time that you may allude to, Doctor. 

Q. Go on, I will hear you. A. I received a letter before 
that time, but it did not bring to my mind the fact that there 
were any rumors afloat against me ; I received a letter from 
the clerk of the Session asking me to resign my position as an 
elder ; that struck me as rather singular ; I thought it over a 
good deal, wondering why they should ask my resignation ; if 
they wanted to elect new elders they might do so; it would not 
interfere at all with my membership as an elder, because my 
time would run out in the spring any way ; my time ran out in 
three years ; and so before resigning I wrote to the clerk ask- 
ing him why they wanted my resignation ; that is, to Mr. Free- 
man ; I wrote Mr. Talmage, for that reason, saying I would 
not resign until I had the reason ; I received no answer from 
either of those gentlemen ; I wrote again to Dr. Talmage ask- 
ing why, and I received an answer from Mrs. Talmage written 
from her husband, which has been put in evidence, saying that 
there was nothing but the kindest feeling ; and that brushed 
away any doubts that I had in my mind in wondering why this 
request had been made. 



331 



Q. Was there any common fame in the sense of the book 
relating to this matter between you and Dr. Talmage in exist- 
ence before the investigating committee was appointed? A- 
That is something I don't know. 

Q. You don't know that there was? A. I don't know. 

Q. You hadn't heard of it, had you? A. Only among my 
friends. 

Q. You hadn't talked about this thing ? A. To a very few ; 
only among a small circle. 

Q. Did you ever see any reference to it in the papers ? A 
No ; I was very thankful it never got into the papers. 

Q. When Mr. Mitchell was excommunicated from the Taber- 
nacle, did Dr. Van Dyke threaten to force him back upon the 
church and threaten Presbyterial action ? A. I don't know 
anything about it ; not to my knowledge. 

Q. Did Dr. Van Dyke threaten Presbyterial action against 
Dr. Talmage for starting the Lay College ? A. I don't know 
anything about that. 

Q. Did he threaten Presbyterial action when they sold the 
old chapel a year ago for wasting Presbyterian property ? A. 
I don't know anything about that. 

Q. Several years ago ? A. I don't know anything about it 
at all ; I think it must have been before my time in Brooklyn. 

Q. What was the name of your first business partner in 
Chicago ? A. When I first went there ? 

Q. Of your first business partner in Chicago ? A. When I 
first went to Chicago I went into the fruit business, and had a 
gentleman by the name of Frazier with me ; it was not a regu- 
lar partnership, however. 

Q. What was his first name ? A. J. B. Frazier. 
Q. Was there more than one ? A. No, sir. 
Mr. Millard — I will ask you a few questions, Mr. Hath- 
away. In your account that you gave of your debts yesterday 
did you include the debt to Kaymond & Co. ? A. I do not 
think I did ; that is not in Brooklyn ; not to my remembrance. 

Dr. Spear — There is one other question I meant to have 
asked. I call your attention to the interview which you have 
had with Mr. Crosly and Dr. Van Dyke in reference to the 
matter which is contained in the fourth specification ; do you 
recollect it ? A. Yes, a sir. 



332 



Q. Did you express an opinion that it should not be inserted 
at all ? A. I expressed a desire that it should not be. 

Q. Did you express an opinion that it ought not to be ? A. 
I simply put it, I think, in the shape of a desire. 

Q. Did Dr. Yan Dyke say it should come in ? A. No, sir ; 
he did not. 

Q. What did he say? A. He said he did not know ; now, I 
do not know as I can give the language ; but the idea was that 
he probably concurred with me in that desire ; it was an un- 
settled question in his mind whether my desire should be com- 
plied with, so far as I understood it. 

Q. Did you know that Mr. Crosby had been appointed as a 
member of the Committee of Inquiry ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was Dr. Yan Dyke a member of that committee to your 
knowledge ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you regard him as a member ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Where did you have this meeting? A. In his study. 

Q. Anybody else there ? A. No, sir. 

Q. How came you to be there ? A. Mr. Crosby wrote me a 
letter to which I did not respond ; he then came to my house and 
I refused to give him any knowledge of the transaction until I 
should go with him before Dr. Yan Dyke, and I told him if he 
cared to walk with me down to Dr. Yan Dyke's study, I would 
then and there in the presence of Dr. Yan Dyke correct 
the statement that he had read to me as to his present knowl- 
edge of it. 

Q. Whose statement? A. Mr. Crosby's; Mr. Crosby, I 
found was cognizant of the main facts, and I refused to say 
anything to him about it until we should come into the pres- 
ence of Dr. Yan Dyke ; then I gave a statement of the matter 
as I understood it. 

Mr. Mill a ed — I would like to ask you whether you included 
the debt of Kaymond & Co. in your statement? A. I do not 
think I did. 

Q. Did you owe them a debt ? A. I refuse to testify about 
that at all. 

Q. You stated that you received, as you considered, a con- 
fession from Dr. Talmage in the action taken upon that reso- 
lution of retraction. A. Excuse me, my mind was off. 



333 



Question repeated. A. Yes, sir ; I considered he so under- 
stood. 

Q. I will read the resolution, and see if you think there is 
any confession of slander here (the resolution is read by Mr. 
Millard) ; is that all the confession there was ? A. That reso- 
lution is all I received. 

Q. Was there any resolution confessing slander there ? A. 
I do not know how you construe it. 

Q. You accepted it ? A. I accepted it. 

Q. It is stated here that Mr. Hathaway complains of slan- 
ders, and that he made complaint that these slanders had 
arisen upon the construction put upon inadvertent remarks ; 
is that your language ? A. No, sir, it is not my language. 

Q. Did you take that paper, then stating a falsehood about 
yourself? A. No, sir ; there is no falsehood about it at all, 
sir. 

Q. That paper states that it is what you said it to be 
about? A. I accepted that paper as a settlement. 

Q. That paper states that you complained that this thing 
had arisen out of inadvertent remarks ? A. No, sir ; I was 
not satisfied with that paper ; I never was satisfied with that 
paper, but I concluded not to higgle over the wording of it 
any longer, but as long as they said everything was false and 
slanderous, that was enough for me, and I took it and let 
^ go- 

Q. Then, you took it, knowing that it stated things that you 
did not say ? A. Not at all ; no, sir. 

Q. It is stated there that you said this thing had arisen out 
of inadvertent remarks ? A. No, sir ; it does not state any- 
thing of the kind ; you have the most absurd way of stating 
what a man has testified to without there being anything of the 
kind. 

Q. Well, we'll see what it does say ? 
(Proceedings again read by Mr. Millard.) 
Q. What does that mean ? A. To a certain extent, does it 
not say ? 

Q. "Having arisen upon inadvertent remarks?" A. " To a 
certain extent ;" not altogether, but to a certain extent. 

Q. Now, I ask you another question, then, Mr. Hathaway ; 



3M 

was there anything in that resolution that admitted that any- 
body had made any other than inad\ ertent remarks ? A. Cer- 
tainly, sir ; it says slanderous ; read it again. 

Q. Does it say that the slanders were made by any member 
of the session ? A. It does not name them ; they knew who 
it was. 

Q. Some slanders A. Read it, please ? (It is read 

again.) A. Yes, sir ; to a certain extent. 

Q. Is there any other than made here by those remarks? 
A. Certainly, to a certain extent ; it does not include all the 
slanders ; part of them arose from inadvertent remarks, and 
part of them direct remarks to Dr. Van Dyke. 

Q. Does that resolution imply that ? A. It certainly does, 
to my mind. 

Q. You think, then, that the resolution contained a confes- 
sion then, do you, that some of the members of the Session 
had made other than inadvertent remarks ? A. I had charged 
Dr. Talmage ten minutes before — before them all — and all it 
says " of that character," are false and slanderous. 

Q. That speaks only of circulated rumors ; was that matter 
you charged Dr. Talmage with, rumor ? A. It speaks of every 
thing besides rumors ; it speaks of direct slanders. 

Q. Was there a slander in circulation? A. Yes, sir ; cer- 
tainly it had been circulated between No. 1 South Oxford street 
and Dr. Van Dyke's office, for a week. 

Q. Had you circulated it ? A. It was being circulated from 
No. 1 South Oxford street to Dr. Van Dyke's study. 

Q. Where had it been circulated ? A. That had not been 
in circulation so much as the others had; that only refers to 
rumors which had been in circulation. 

Q. It refers to the slanders first and the rumors afterwards ? 
A. The slanders in circulation — that had been in circulation. 

Q. See if it does ? (Reads the proceedings again.) A. I 
think that was sufficient. 

Q . How many ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Did you tell it to anybody ? A. That was the 12th of 
January, and I had heard of it the week before ; oh, yes ; I 
had circulated it to two or three of my friends. 

Q. Had Dr. Van Dyke circulated it ? A. I don't know. 



335 



Q. Who did you tell ? A. I do not know. 

By Mr. McCullough ; Had you circulated it at Princeton ? 
A. Yes, sir ; I had circulated it at Princeton meanwhile. 

Q. But this is all the confession that he ever made ; that 
having arisen upon certain inadvertent remarks, they passed 
this ? * A. I never said anything more about it. 

Q. Dr. Talmage is not mentioned there, unless he is included 
among the members of the church ? A. I do not know that 
he is ; he is mentioned there as being present. 

Q. Now, I want to ask your attention to this circular that 
accompanied your answer to all applications for pews ; I want 
to call your attention to one passage in it : " As no pew rentals 
are exacted ;" you knew it when you sent it out, didn't you ? 
A. Now, doctor, I see just exactly what you are at ; I will not 
answer any question at all on that score. 

Q. I want to ask you a plain question, as a minister and a 
member of this body ; did you, when you sent that circular 
out, believe that to be a falsehood ? A. I did not think any- 
thing about it particularly. 

Q. Didn't you state here yesterday that you did consider it 
false ? A. I do not know whether I did or not. 

Q, Will you say that you did not state that on the stand ? 
A. You refer to the minutes and see. 

Q. You won't say anything further about it, whether you 
put a falsehood in circulation ? A. No, sir ; I won't say any- 
thing further in relation to questions of that character. 

Q. You have sworn to-day that you think, when Dr. Talmage 
made this announcement, he did not mean to tell anything 
false ? A. I do not think I have said that. 

Q. Didn't you answer it to Dr. Spear ? A. Not in that 
way. 

Q. Didn't you think he was so in the habit of speaking in 
exaggerated terms and hyperbole that he didn't consciously 
tell a falsehood ? A. Sometimes I have said so. 

Q. Didn't you say he was so in the habit of speaking in ex- 
aggerated ^terms and hyperboles that he didn't consciously 
utter a falsehood when he announced about the pews ? A. I 
cannot say whether I did. 

Q. Didn't you say so? A. I don't know ; I will refer you to 
the minutes for anything I have said. 



336 



What do you say now ? A. Whether he consciously told 
a falsehood when he said that the pews were assigned without 
reference to the dollar question? Well, sir, if it had been my 
own self I should say I must have been conscious ol telling a 
falsehood. 

Q. That I didn't ask you ; I ask you about Dr. Talmage ? 
A. I cannot tell you ; he is made up different from any man I 
ever kDew. 

Q. Didn't you state yesterday that you did think he was 
tilling a falsehood when he said it ? A. I do not know what I 
said yesterday; you must refer to the minutes to find out. 

Q. What is your recollection about it ? A. It is as much as 
I can do to keep to-day's proceedings in my mind. 

Q. Why didn't you complain cf it at the Session ; didn't I 
put that question to you ? A. I think you did. 

Q. Didn't you say yesterday that you thought he was tell- 
ing a falsehood, and I ask you why you 5 as an elder, did not 
complain to the Session, and you stated that you were a young 
man ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was that a fact, that you did think he was telling a false- 
hood ? A. I thought it very strange that he could possibly 
stand in that position without meaning to tell a falsehood. 

Q. Do you mean to say now that you were not sure that he 
did mean to tell a falsehood ? A. He told me once that 
when he was born he was an innovation, and that he had been 
an innovation ever since, and maybe that was an innovation 
of his. 

Q. You gave as a reason yesterday why you, as an elder of 
that church, listening to what you considered to be a falsehood 
uttered by one that knew they were falsehoods, why you didn't 
bring it before the Session was that you were a young man ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You were too modest to do it ? A. I did not say so ; T 
never was accused of that very much. 

Q. It was because you were a young man that you didn't 
take up this matter ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much older were you when you wrote the letter to 
Mr. Eells, in which you said, " They must be made to applaud 
me furiously ?" A. I do not know how much older I was ; my 



337 



dear sir, 1 will tell you about that letter now ; you aud every- 
body else can see that it was written as a jocose letter from 
beginning to the end. 

Q. You didn't intend anything by it ? A. It was a jocose 
letter all the way through. 

Q. Didn't you mean anything by saying that they should 
get up applause for you ? A. No, sir ; not anything serious. 

Q. Where is that letter — we will read it ? 

A member of the court objects to Mr. Millard going into 
this inquiry on ground of its irrelevancy. The objection is 
not sustained. 

Q. I ask you now if this was an honest or dishonest prac- 
tice ? A. I decline to say anything more about it. 

Q. Didn't you mean it seriously, as the letter says? A. I 
did not mean it as the letter says. 

Q. Didn't you put in as a reason why you wanted the ap- 
plause was that it was your last night aud you wanted it done 
by him as a favor to you ? A. You can read it and see what 
it says. 

(The letter is read again up to the point of the remark in 
question.) 

Q. That is so far not playful, but business-like ? A. That is 
business. 

(The sentence in question is then read.) 
Q. That you call playful ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Then you branch off from business into mere badinage ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You didn't mean to have the applause? A. I have de- 
scribed it just all I am going to. 

. Q. I want to ask you about one other business transaction ; 
did you propose to Mr. Backus when you had the charge of 
the renting of the pews, that if he would increase his subscrip- 
tion, you would help him by bringing business to him — enough 
to make it up in a private way ? A. Mr. Backus came to my 
house, as others did, to rent or re-rent — I will use the word 
assign — to secure the reassignment of his pew ; I urged him, 
as I urged everyone else to raise ; Mr. Backus plead, as almost 
everybody else did, poverty ; Mr. Backus complained that the 
peop]e of the church did not patronize him ; I was trading 
43 



338 



some with Mr. Backus myself, and he thought that other mem- 
bers might trade with him ; I told him I would be very glad to 
introduce to him any of the people of the church that I could; 
I remember that conversation distinctly. 

Q. If he would increase his subscription you would make it 
up privately ? A. No, sir ; I told him I would do all I could 
to help him in the way of getting their custom, and that that 
would increase his business of course ; and I urged, I think, on 
the other hand, him to increase ; now sir, if he connected them 
in his mind, well and good ; that is all. 

Q. Then I understand you to say that you thought that Dr. 
Taluiage was uttering falsehoods to his congregation about the 
matter of pews, in the face of hundreds that knew it was false, 
and that you, as an elder, sat by and heard it, and never made 
any complaint to him, nor to his Session ; and that after that 
you took a letter of introduction from Dr. Talmage to Prince- 
ton, and that you have just stated on the stand that your 
friendly relations continued all that time ? A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. McCullagh — I will ask you one or two questions to 
bring you back to the discussion of the questions at issue ; 
what reason had you for saying you thought you owed Mrs. 
Hume fifty dollars ; less than the present amount of that bill? 
A. I understood that Mrs. Hume, who was about to give up 
her pew in the Tabernacle, was willing to pay the fifty dollars 
that the Trustees had sent her a bill for, in case it could be 
turned on my own account ; I reported the fact to the Treas- 
urer of the church. 

Q. Who was Treasurer ? A. Mr. E. S. Hobbs ; he had not 
settled my account at that time ; I asked Mrs. Hume to send 
me a statement of my account ; I was very friendly with the 
family ; Mrs. Hume was in my Bible class ; I never received a 
statement, and I supposed that the fifty dollars had been taken 
from that account and charged to me upon the church account 
by Mr. Hobbs, as I reported it to Mr. Hobbs ; I now learn 
that Mr. Hobbs never consummated the arrangement with the 
Humes, and, therefore, I stand charged upon the books with 
fifty dollars more than I supposed I would ; but let me be 
understood thoroughly that the Humes are all right in the 
matter. 



339 



Q. You do not dispute the correctness of the present bill ? 
A. Not at all. 

Q. When you Jeft Brooklyn for Princeton, was there any 
disposition on your part to get away without the knowledge of 
your creditors ? A. Not at all, sir ; I did not feel that I had 
removed really from Brooklyn ; I was only temporarily ab- 
sent ; this was my home ; I was coming back here. 

Q. Did they know of your contemplated removal from 
Brooklyn ? A. Every one knew it for months — for two months 
about. 

Q. Did you receive the full amount of the sum which the 
Sabbath school pledged to pay ? A. Oh, no. 

Q. If the Sabbath School had redeemed its pledge, which 
you had every right to suppose they would, could you and 
would you have paid every dollar of your indebtedness ? A. 
Most certainly. 

Q. Who was the Moderator of the meeting of the Session 

of January 12 ? A. Excuse me ; in connection with the 

last question I said " most certainly ;" by reason of not receiv- 
ing that money I was very much cramped financially; having 
assumed responsibilities in Princeton on the strength of it that 
caused me to struggle very greatly to get through. 

Q. And preventing you from liquidating your indebtedness 
then as rapidly as you otherwise would ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who was the Moderator of the meeting of the Session of 
January 12, when the resolution was unanimously passed as- 
serting that all the rumors afloat to your discredit had been 
thoroughly investigated and found to be untrue and slander- 
ous ? A. Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage oppose the passage of that resolution ? 

A. No, sir ; he urged it. 

Q. Did any of the members, according to your recollection, 
refuse to vote for the passage of that resolution until that 
clause was inserted which made that a final settlement of the 
whole matter ? A. Yes, sir ; Dr. Talmage put them in ex- 
pressly — that that should be a settlement. 

Q. If the matter charged against you by Dr. Talmage was 
false and untrue, could the mere resolution finally and forever 
settle that matter provided circumstances chanced to bring 



340 



them up to the surface again ? A. That is a matter I am not 
prepared to decide ; it is not within my province. 

Q. You were asked yesterday if you knew to your own 
knowledge that Dr. Talmage said anything untruthful against 
you ; was the statement of Dr. Talmage to Dr. Yan Dyke to 
the effect that you had misappropriated the funds of the 
Tabernacle ? A. No, sir. 

Q. When Dr. "Van Dyke told Dr. Talmage in your presence, 
that he had told him that you were an untrustworthy man 
whose veracity could not be relied upon, did Dr. Talmage de- 
ny it ? A. The only thing that I remember that Dr. Talmage 
denied was the fact of his using the word " defaulter," and im- 
mediately after that he turned to me and said that we might 
as well be friends. 

Q. When Dr. Yan Dyke asked you to tell what was the in- 
debtedness of the Tabernacle, and you made no reply, and 
then when he said "I will tell you," and mentioned the various 
amounts correctly, where did you suppose that he got his in- 
formation from; I want your opinion on that subject? A. 
Well, I dislike to swear to an opinion. 

Q. Give us the best of your opinion on that matter ; was 
there any published schedule at that time in existence from 
which Dr. Yan Dyke could have secured that information ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. There was a schedule ; is that one of them ? (handing wit- 
ness paper). A. This is the only printed statement that I 
know of being in existence. 

Q. For whose use was this statement printed ? A. For 
private circulation among the officers of the church. 

Q. Did you think that this schedule may have fallen into the 
hands of Dr. Yan Dyke ? A. I did not think it possible. 

Q. In your interview with Dr. Yan Dyke on this occasion 
did you volunteer the information, or did Dr. Yan Dyke first 
introduce the subject ? A. He first introduced it. 

Q. Did Dr. Yan Dyke ever ask you to go to his house or to 
his study, or to meet him anywhere else to consult in regard 
to the financial condition of the Tabernacle ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did Dr. Yan Dyke ever solicit any information from you 
in regard to the Tabernacle other than the occasion which has 
just been alluded to? A. No, sir. 



341 



Q. Did he ever solicit from you any information in regard 
to the Tabernacle other than that instance ? A. No, sir. 

Q. When you wrote to Dr. Talmage in regard to a letter 
you had received from the clerk of the Session, suggesting that 
you should resign from the office of Ruling Elder, what did 
Mrs. Talmage writing in her husband's name — what grounds 
did she give you for this desire on the part of the Session? 
A. That letter is in evidence. 

Q. Just state the ground ? A. It was just simply that they 
might put a man in my place who was on the ground, and 
that there was no unkind feeling toward me. 

Q. Then that request was not made because of any want of 
confidence in your integrity or Christian character? A. So it 
stated in that letter. 

Q. Would you state, if you please, the substance, as well as 
you recollect it, of your interview with Captain Sloan — just as 
far as the interview or interviews relate to the matter before 
us ? A. At the time I was here in relation to this matter I 
occasionally met members of the congregation, and I remem- 
ber meeting Captain Sloan ; but what I said to Captain Sloan 
I cannot swear to to day any further than to say that I did 
not tell him that it was asked inejHn the cross-examination, be- 
cause I had not told anybody anything of that kind ; but that 
I had a settlement of the matter ; I might have said that had 
I not secured a settlement, that I should have brought it be- 
fore the Presbytery, which I certainly should have done ; but 
nothing more. 

Q. At whose suggestion — at whose advice did you visit Dr. 
Talmage to have your character vindicated ? A. At the 
advice and suggestion of Dr. Green and Dr. MoGill and the 
Trustees, whom I met the evening before. 

Q. When you visited Dr. Yan Dyke and solicited counsel, 
what did Dr. Yan Dyke say to you? A. I did not visit him 
to solicit. 

Q. In your visit with him I understand that you mentioned 
this matter to him ? A. At that same interview at the time 
Dr. Talmage was present — no, sir — it was not that interview ; 
it was the interview when Dr. Yan Dyke told .me first of what 
Dr. Talmage had said, and after recovering from my shock I 



342 



said, " Doctor, wliat shall I do ? " and he said, " I have no 
advice to give you." 

Q. Those were his words as near as you can recollect ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. You were asked yesterday why you did not remonstrate 
with Dr. Talmage when he persisted in announcing, from the 
pulpit, that the pews were not assigned according to the dollar 
question ; were you an employee of the church at that time ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you among the oldest or the youngest members of 
the elders ? A. I was one of the youngest members of the 
eldership. 

Q. Had you ever remonstrated, as an elder, against any pro- 
cedure on the part of Dr. Talmage and the Session which, in 
your judgment, was detrimental to the purity and spiritual in- 
terests of the church ; and if so, had your remonstrances and 
suggestions been heeded ; did you get the question ? A. Yes, 
sir ; I will answer that I had made such remonstrances, and 
that they had not been heeded. 

Q. Just tell why you had made them, and the character of 
your remonstrances? A. It was in relation to the manner of 
receiving new members into the church. 

Q. Describe it, if you please ? A. Those candidates for 
membership would come into the session room and there they 
were examined by Dr. Talmage, and usually no one else asked 
questions ; sometimes Father Pearson did. 

Q. Who examined them ? A. Yery seldom any one except 
Dr. Talmage, and they were entire strangers to us all ; some 
of them would state that they had just been roused to think of 
the subject ; and I made a motion that do one be received into 
the membership of the church uutil they should have presented 
themselves — or that there should two weeks elapse between 
their presentation and the time they should be received ; I fre- 
quently made that motion, and it was always lost ; I did not 
teel like presenting my ideas under the circumstances. 

Q. You did not feel then in this case when your remon- 
strances had been repulsed before, like pressing this other 
matter ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You have been asked about your conversation repeatedly 



343 

with Mr. St. John ; did you seek Mr. St. John for the purpose 
of having a conversation on this specific subject? A. Oh, no. 

Q. How did you come to converse wiih him ? A. We were 
conversing on different subjects when it came up ; I do not 
know how. 

Q. I would like to ask you another question ; how did you 
become a witness in this trial, I would like to have that fact 
for my own information here ? A. I was cited by the clerk. 

Q. Would you give an account of the interview you had with 
Mr. Crosby? A. I gave that a few minutes ago. 

Q. It is this question I want to ask : in this interview with 
Mr. St. John, did you intend to leave the impression on his 
mind that Dr. Van Dyke had dragged you into this trial ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. What impression did you intend to leave on his mind ? 
A. I intended to leave on his mind that I did not come into it 
myself. 

Q. Did you intend that Dr. Yan Dyke was instrumental in 
any way in bringing vou in? A. No, sir; I did not say any- 
thing in relation to Dr. Van Dyke. 

Q. Has Dr. Van Dyke ever solicited you to become a wit- 
ness ? .A. No, sir. 

Q. Before you left Brooklyn for Princeton, did ever Dr. 
Talmage or any official members of the church or any member 
of the Tabernacle make any complaint against you as an up- 
right Christian man, in any way ? A. No, sir ; I never heard 
the slightest complaint in any way against my moral character 
before I left ; the only complaint that I ever heard was from 
these people— a few that thought that I was the one that had 
caused them to be troubled in regard to their seats, if they 
did not pay more. 

Q. Did you know when you were assigning pews in the 
Tabernacle, according to a plan given to you by the Trustees ; 
did you know that the Trustees were remonstrating with Dr. 
Talmage against his pulpit announcement? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What instructions had you from the Trustees, in regard 
to the renting of pews irrespective of the amount specified on 
the diagram — was your general instructions to get just as much 
as you could ? A. My instructions were to get the amount 



3M 

marked in the diagram, not to assign without reporting to 
them otherwise. 

Q. Did you ever hear the Trustees and Dr. Talmage discuss 
the matter of auctioning the pews in the Tabernacle ? A. No, 
not auctioning. 

Q. It was asked you if the regular congregation at the 
Tabernacle knew that there was no deceit practiced in this 
matter — knew that the pews were virtually rented, and that 
there was no deceit — were you in the habit of having a large 
number of strangers at your regular services ? A. Yes, sir ; 
very large. 

Q. Were these strangers cognizant of these facts, so far as 
you knew ? A. Of course not. 

Q. Will you give an account of your election as President of 
the Young People's Association, briefly — you were nominated 
then ? A. Yes, sir ; in the fall of 1875 ; we had our anniver- 
sary as usual in October ; "Vice-President Wilson spoke ; upon 
that occasion I announced that I would not be a can- 
didate for reelection; that announcement was an honest 
one ; I honestly intended not to be President of the 
Young People's Association any more ; subsequent to 
that time I received a communication from the Board of 
Trustees saying that the interests of the church demanded that 
I should allow my name to stand as a candidate ; I received 
also a letter from Dr. Talmage acquiescing in the request of 
the Board of Trustees that I should allow my name to stand 
as a candidate ; he said he had found that it would be for the 
interests of the church that I should run ; now, then, sir, I 
did not make this known to the people, that Dr. Talmage had 
interfered with our election, because I thought they wonld be 
angry to think that he had interfered with the Young People's 
Association ; therefore, I kept it to myself and on account of 
my keeping it to myself I was charged with dishonorably 
running again as the candidate for the Presidency of that 
association. 

Q. Is that the request signed by the Board of Trustees and 
others that you received, insisting upon your remaining upon 
the field as a candidate? (Handing witness paper.) A. Yes, 
sir. 



345 



Mr. McCullagh here reads the following letter in evidence 
as follows : 

" Brooklyn, October 15, 1875. 

Mr. I. W. Hathaway : 

" Dear Sir — We, the undersigned members of the Board of 
" Trustees, believe that any abandonment of your position as 
" candidate for the Presidency of the Young People's Associa- 
" tion, will be unwise at this time, and request that you leave 
" your name in the field, and pledge to you any personal in- 
" fluence we may have in the premises. 

" Truly yours, &c. 

" T. EDWARD FLEET, 
" BENJ. F. WELLS, 
" JNO. T. TALMAGE, 
" HENRY L. FOOTE, 
" FREDK. BAKER, 
" ROBERT S. HO BBS, 
" B/F. COGSWELL, 
" B. R, CORWIN, 
" THOS. E. PEARSALL." 
(Marked " Plaintiffs' Exhibit A," of this date.) 
Q. Whose writing is this in the corner ? A. That is B. R. 
Corwin's. 

Q. " Believing it for the best interests of the church, I sign. 

B. R. C." 

A. Yes, sir ; I want to explain about the election in regard 
to Mr. McCoy. 

Q. Explain it ? A. Mr. McCoy, in the fall of 1873, came to 
my office in New York, saying that he was going west, and 
that he was a candidate for the Presidency ; I was a new T man 
in the Tabernacle, and had not dreamed of being a candidate ; 
I told Mr. McCoy that I would favor his nomination, and 
that I would use my influence for his election ; Mr. McCoy 
went away west ; I did, as the chairman of the nominating 
committee appointed by Mr. Buys, nominate Mr. McCoy ; 
subsequent to that time, different ones began to come to me 
and say : "We are going to elect you, Hathaway ;" I smiled, 
thought it was a joke ; very much to my surprise, at the even- 
ing of the election I found that there was a very large party 
44 



346 



that was going to vote for me ; I did not stand over the ballot- 
box with a club and prevent them ; they elected me ; I was 
elected by a very large majority, and accepted the nomination 
— accepted the election : I did fulfill my pledge to Mr. McCoy ; 
I voted for him and I nominated him, did all I could consist- 
ently for him, and he was defeated and I was elected ; Mr. Mc- 
Coy, when he came back, was very angry ; I made him chair- 
man of the first and largest committee, and he accepted it, but 
was always an antagonist to me ever after. 

Q. You were asked yesterday, and if I mistake the counsel's 
language I will be glad to be corrected — you were asked yes- 
terday if all those who were refused pews in the Tabernacle 
because they would not pay a certain amount, were not those 
w*ho really occupied pews in other churches, and who were 
taking advantage of the facilities afforded by the Brooklyn 
Tabernacle to obtain free pews, and on these grounds 

Mr. Millard — This was not the question. I said that as an 
illustration ; that for instance a party paying all his money in 
any other church and wishing to have an extra pew in this, 
whether that would not be one case that would not come 
within the reason of the rule, and whether these exceptions 
might not have been upon some such grounds, and whether in 
all these cases it was not for some kind of contumacy, because 
they wanted to shirk the real meaning of a free church. 

Q. Will you answer that ? A. I did not hear it, sir. 

Mr. Millard — Whether in this case, these dozen of cases 
out of hundreds of pew lettings where they did not get what 
they wanted, were not the matters based upon some reasons 
that I have stated ; for instance, a party that paid his money 
to one church and wanted to get a pew there for nothing to 
accommodate his friends, or a millionaire that wanted to go in 
there and pay five dollars a year for that ; in other words, 
whether those were not mere exceptional cases ? A. I would 
state that these dozen that I have testified \ o, or about a dozen, 
some of them might have been exceptional cases, but others 
were not ; I received a very large number of verbal instruc- 
tions to the same effect ; I do not know how many. 

Q. (By Mr. McCullagh) : Have you any facts before your 
mind to assure you that this was not the case ? 



347 



Mr. Millard — He says it was the case. 
A. In some cases it was. 

Q. Do you know it was not? A. There was only one such 
case that I know of ; there was a man that had a pew in an- 
other church and had a pew in our church ; I remember that 
man distinctly ; that is the only case I ever knew. 

Q. Did you ever receive from parties — I think this very 
name was mentioned yesterday — Mrs. Hendrickson — did you 
ever receive letters similar to that ? (Producing letter.) A. This 
is a letter that I wrote to the Board of Trustees, and this is a 
letter I received from a party giving up his pew. 

Mr. McCullagh — I offer both of these in evidence, as show- 
ing that if there was an exception, it certainly did not enter 
into the minds of the Trustees, and that it was the habitual 
custom with them to bring such influences to bear on the 
parties that occupied pews that if they did not pay the stipu- 
lated amount they must vacate them. 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage knew anything about 
this ? A. That identical letter ? 

Q. Yes, sir ? A. Oh ! no ; I could not say that he did. 

Q. Do you know that he knew anything about similar letters? 
A. Yes, sir ; he knew that I was receiving letters of that gen- 
eral character. 

Mr. McCullagh reads the letters : 

" New York, Oct. 17, 1875. 

"I. W. Hathaway, Esq., 

Schermerhorn Street : 
Dear Sir, — You may dispose of pew 120, as hereafter I do 
not wish to occupy any pew in the Tabernacle. 

" Yours very truly, 

<F. T. E. BUYS." 
Q. Something is written in pencil here ; do you know by 
whom? A. Yes ; by Mr. Corwin. 
(Beading ) 

" Amen, thank God ; I would that they were removed that 
trouble you. 

" St. PAUL." 
(Marked Plaintiff's Exhibit B, of this date.) 



348 



Mr. McCullagh reads : 

" Gentlemen : — Mr. Thomas H. Hendrickson has pew 454 
on Mr. Warner's aisle, the fourth from the rear ; he subscribes 
$40 ; he wishes to move front, would like 14 on Mr. Well's 
aisle or some seat equally good ; cannot raise at all his sub- 
scription ; Mrs. H. will come no more to Tabernacle unless 
moved ; I await your instructions. 

"Yours truly, 

" I. W. HATHAW T AY." 

Q. Who has written this in pencil here : " Tell hiin we have 
no " more eligible seat to give. B. E. C." A. Mr. Corwin. 

(Marked plaintiff's Exhibit C, of this date.) 

Q. You were asked yesterday if you went to Mr. Barnum 
and proposed to him that if he would tear up your bill for 
flowers, that you would get him his pew cheaper ; would you 
state the facts as they occurred ? A. I did not state to him 
anything of that kind ; Mr. Barnum subscribed $300 for his 
pew, and he found that it was too much for him to carry ; I 
very frequently dropped into their place of business, as I was 
passing by ; we were very friendly ; always have been in fact ; 
Mrs. Barnum was a member of my Bible class, and 1 procured 
frequently flowers, and I had a bill there that amounted to about 
$6, as I remember it ; Mr. Barnum said one day, "I wish that you 
would get my pew subscription reduced to $150 ; " well, I told 
him I would try to ; I would see the Board of Trustees ; I did 
so ; I had the change effected ; it was placed upon the book at 
$150 ; a bill for that amount was made out, and I returned it 
to Mr. Barnum in the handwriting of the Treasurer to show 
him as proof that the matter had been attended to ; and then 
— I will not swear whether he did it, or whether I did it — that is, 
proposed that that little bill be cancelled ; I may have done so; 
in a very friendly way it was done, and without the least word 
I accepted it as a gift, and there the matter ended ; I will state 
here before you, that under the circumstances as they here ap- 
pear, it was an indiscreet act. 

Q. How much did you say that bill was? A. Six dollars 
and some cents, I believe ; I do not remember the exact 
amount. 

Q. Will you tell us about your indebtedness to Mr. Wilson ; 
you were cross-examined on that question yesterday? A. 



349 



When I went to Princeton, I decided to take — my wife de- 
cided to take, rather — some day-boarders, of students ; I went 
to Mr. Wilson, knowing him to be in the crockery business^ 
and got some dishes ; hi was very friendly, always had been, 
oh, yes, anything I wanted, I could have ; I told him I should 
have some money coming from the Tabernacle Sunday School 
soon, and I would pay him; I bought of him $19 worth of 
dishes, that was after I removed to Princeton, and he shipped 
them to me ; in a short time, I don't remember how long, I re- 
ceived a very sharp letter, dunning me for the dishes, which 
surprised me because he had been so free ; I wrote Mr. Wilson 
back that I supposed our friendship amounted to a few dol- 
lars of credit on those dishes as he had so freely offered them to 
me, and I wondered what was the matter with Mr. Wilson ; I 
wrote Mr. Cor win a letter, supposing Mr. Corwin was all right 
and Mr. Wilson was all wrong, telling him that I had lost faith 
in Mr. Wilson and that as Mr. Wilson was coming into the 
Sabbath School, it was written to Mr. Corwin to kind of put 
Mr. Corwin on his guard, and then I sent an order on Mr. 
Foote to pay; Mr. Foote wrote me a letter, sa\ing that he 
would accept the order and pay; here it is; shall I read it? 
(Heading), " Yours just at hand ; I will cash the order for $19 ; " 
the other is private matter; so that was settled ; then when I 
came back and found Major Corwin was all wrong and Mr. 
Wilson was all right, I went to Mr. W T ilson and said, " I wrote 
Mr. Corwin a letter about you that I wish to recall, and I un- 
derstand now why you wrote your letter, and I will now pub- 
licly recall that letter and say in that Sessional meeting," — the 
first one that has been in evidence here of January 5th ; I 
stated before them all, that I had written such a letter to Mr. 
Corwin ; Mr. Corwin says, "Nobody has ever seen it ;" says I, 
" No matter whether they have or not; I wrote such a letter, 
and I now publicly recall all I have said." 

Q. Tell about your indebtedness; your account with Mr. 
Fleet. A. Mr. Fleet I owed $30 to 

Q. You have paid your indebtedness to Mr. Wilson ; you 
paid it then ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Go on. A. Mr. Fleet I visited about it when he was sick ; 
I wrote him after I had been in Princeton some two months, 



350 



and received a reply stating that it was all right, that he knew 
I would pay it when I could ; and that letter I have given you. 

Q. Is that the letter that you received from Mr. Fleet ? 
(Handing witness paper). A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. McCullagh offers the letter in evidence and reads it as 
follows : 

(Marked Tlaintiffs Exhibit D, of this date.) 

" Brooklyn, January 26th, 1877, 

"I. W. Hathaway, 

" Dear Sir :— Yours of the 24th received and contents noted • 
I have been quite unwell, but am able to be about again, al- 
though not fully recovered ; I am aware that you owe me a 
small bill for coal as you say, but have said nothing about it j 
supposing you to be a christian man, would attend to it as 
soon as possible ; am glad to hear that you are pleased with 
your prospects of becoming a preacher of the Gospel, and hope 
I may live to hear you ; you may become the Pastor of the 
' Brooklyn Tabernacle ' yet ; who knows ? 

" We are having very hard times in Brooklyn financially ; I 
fear we will all go under soon unless times get better; John 
Wood & Co., went up last week, and Major has gone back to 
the insurance business again, and they have gone into their 
old store again. 

" Remember me kindly to your wife and children, and 
hoping to see you the next time you come to Brooklyn, 
I remain, yours truly, 

T. ED. FLEET." 

Q. Since the commencement of this trial has anybody come 
to this church — — A. (interrupting) I refuse to testify. 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. You were asked yesterday in regard to a salesman, 
whether you had had any trouble with a salesman, an employee 
in Chicago ; please state any difficulty you may have had with 
auy salesman in Chicago ? A. Well, sir ; that question puzzled 
me yesterday, and I thought about it a good deal last night ; 
thought about it this morning ; I could not think of any sales- 
man that I ever had any trouble with ; in talking with a gentle- 
man in New York this morning, he asked me about it, and I 
said " No, sir ; I cannot think of any salesman that I had 



351 



any trouble with," and I suppose I know all about now what 
these gentlemen refer to. Some years ago I was agent for a 
New York house in Chicago, a brush house, of Smith, Clark 
& Co.; they were then on Pearl street; I was their 
agent in Chicago, a branch house; during the busy sea- 
son they sent a young man by the name of Sunder- 
land there to assist me ; well, he was my junior by some 
ten or twelve years, but he very soon conducted himself around 
the store in such a manner that you would have thought that 
he was my senior, and the shipping clerk told him if he didn't 
keep out of his way he would throw him out of the window ; 
he was about nineteen years old, I should judge ; I was about 
thirty ; I was in entire charge of the house ; I wrote to the 
New York house that I didn't want him, that they might recall 
him ; they did recall him, and when he returned, one of the 
junior members of that firm foolishly showed him that letter, 
and he vowed vengeance on me and he has kept it up ever 
since, and I can prove it. 

Q. You were asked in regard to Mr. Simpson ; please 
explain your relations with Mr. Simpson, who he was, and 
what there is in that ? A. I think his name was mentioned to 
me yesterday, and, therefore, I will state all about Mr. Simp- 
son ; Mr. Simpson was a man that had a pew in the Brooklyn 
Tabernacle ; he was a poor man ; his business was to clean 
carpets ; he frequently came to me and said he could not pay 
his pew rent or subscription, and I told him to keep his seat 
and not be worried at all ; he said he would very gladly clean 
carpets to pay for it ; he said he wished he could get the 
church carpets to clean ; I saw the trustees, and they said that 
the sexton must clean them, and they would not pay anything 
extra ; he offered to clean my carpets, or those of any of the 
officers of the church for his pew rent ; finally, when I moved 
I consented to let Mr. Simpson clean my carpets ; he took them 
to Mr. Jordan's to have them cleaned ; I paid the bill and 
have the receipt now ; then when he put them down in my 
house, I supposed from all his statements that he wanted 
to put it down on his pew rent ; I said to J ohn F. Talmage 
that he was to have credit for $7, and it was to be charged to 
me ; Mr. Simpson then came to me and wanted to have the 



money ; I told him it was all the same to me ; that it mattered 
not ; that I had reported it to John F. Talmage and it was 
charged to me now, I supposed, and if he would go over to 
Mr. Talmage's office that Mr. Talmage would pay him the 
money ; I was thoroughly satisfied and that ended it ; I heard 
nothing more from Mr. Simpson, and never thought but that it 
was all settled until January, when I came back ; these rumors 
were afloat, and I found to my amazement that a poor man 
whose children had no shoes and no bread in the house, had 
done work for me, and i had snapped my fingers in his face 
and had gone away and let him starve ; Mr. Simpson did not 
call on Mr. Talmage for some time afterwards, but when he 
did call, and the first time he called, he got his money ; that is 
all of Mr. Simpson. 

Q. Now, in regard to that florist bill of six dollars, which 
you say, under the circumstances as you see them now', might 
have been an indiscretion to the extent of receiving a present 
of six dollars from Mr. Barnum ; is that the only instance iu 
which you did anything of that kind ? A. Yes, sir ; the only 
instance I ever did or offered to do anything of the kind, Mr. 
Backus to the contrary notwithstanding; that is, if Mr. Backus 
says so ; I don't know that he does ; these gentlemen intimate 
that, though I don't believe Mr. Backus claims anything of the 
kind. 

Q. You were asked yesterday whether you ever called Mr. 
Corwin a black-hearted hypocrite, and you said decidedly you 
had not ; did you ever call Mr. Corwin a hypocrite ? A. Well, 
sir, I don't know whether I ever called Mr. Corwin a hypocrite 
or not ; I may have done so. 
By Mr. Millaed : 

Q. One question, Mr. Hathaway ; you were just now asked 
by the counsel whether the reason that you did not remon- 
strate with Dr. Talmage for these announcements was that 
you had made some other remonstrances and they had not been 
heeded? A. I gave that as one reason. 

Q. And didn't you yesterday give as the reason, that you 
were so young a man ? A. Yes, sir ; that is another reason. 

Q. Do you mean to imply, in both those answers, that Dr 
Talmage was telling a falsehood, but that you did not remon- 



353 



strate for those reasons? A. I think that has been gone 
over. 

Q. That is the gist of all your testimony, and you ought not 
to object to answering ; I ask you if you then thought he was 
telling falsehoods, and merely abstained, for these reasons, 
from remonstrating with him ? A. That I then thought he 
was telling a falsehood ; well, he most certainly was 

Q. That is not the question ; you have been giving reasons 
why you did not remonstrate with him ; that implies that he 
did something wrong ; now I ask you if that wrong was that 
you then thought he was telling a falsehood ? A. No ; you 
imply in your question that I thought he was doing wrong ; 
you asked me why I did not remonstrate. 

Q. You say because you were a young man, and remon- 
strated about other things, and they were not heeded ; that 
implies you thought he ought to be remonstrated with ? A. 
Oh, yes, I did. 

Q. Was the thing that you thought he ought to be remon- 
strated with because you thought he was telling a falsehood, 
and knew it? A. When he stated that the pews were assigned 
without reference to the dollar question ? 

Q. Yes? A. And did know they were assigned without 
reference to the dollar question ? 

Q. Did you think he was telling a falsehood ? A. He must 
have known that they were assigned without reference to the 
dollar question. 

Q. I say, did you think so ? A. I say he did know that they 
were then assigned with reference to the dollar question. 

Q. Are you unwilling to answer a plain question that comes 
right here to the charge against this defendant, whether he 
then uttered a'falsehood knowingly ? I ask you the plain ques- 
tion, did you then think, when Dr. Talmage was making these 
announcements, that he was knowingly uttering a falsehood ? 
A. I thought that Dr. Talmage did know that the pews were 
assigned with reference to the dollar question, and he made 
the statement from the pulpit that they were not. 

Q, And that you thought he was telling a falsehood ? A. 
You can make of it what you want. 

Q. Then I do assume that you charge here he was knowing- 
45 



354 



ly telling what was false ; then, after that did you urge people 
to come and hear him preach ? A. No ; I never urged any- 
body to hear him preach. 

Q. I want to ask if, after that, you took the communion at 
his hands, and said you enjoyed it ? A. I don't know any- 
thing what I have said. 

Q. Did you take the communion at his hands after that? 
A. Yes, sir ; I did. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. I understood you to say on the redirect examination 
that you knew that the trustees were remonstrating from time 
to time with Dr. Talmage about these announcements ; how 
did you know that ? A. Because I heard them. 

Q. Of whom ; name the man ? A. I did name them, a little 
while ago. 

Q. The men that remonstrated with Dr. Talmage ? A. Yes, 
sir ; I remember one night we met in Mr. Hobb's house, 550 
State street, and Mr. jTalmage was present ; and we had a 
collation served down stairs during the meeting, and this 
whole matter was talked of that night ; it was quite a full 
meeting. 

Q. Did the trustees remonstrate with him because the an- 
nouncements were false ; did they speak to him as though 
they thought the announcements conveyed a falsehood ? A. 
They said they wished the dominie would stop making those 
announcements from the pulpit that the pews were assigned 
without reference to the dollar question, when everybody knew 
they were assigned with reference to the dollar question, and 
it created confusion. 

Q. Didn't you say a little while ago that you regarded those 
announcements as due to the extravagant and peculiar language 
of Dr. Talmage? A. I did say that I thought Mr. Talmage 
was of such a peculiar make up that he might not have re- 
garded these statements as I would have regarded them. 

Q. As false ? A. Yes, sir ; I say he might not ; I don't pre- 
tend to read his consciousness. 

Q. Then you don't say he knew them to be false? A. He 
must have known them to be false. 

Q. Do you mean to say that the description which you have 



355 



given about the assignment of these pews represents the stand- 
ard, habitual, ordinal condition of that system, and that you 
believed that was known to Dr. Talmage, and he announced 
the free system in opposition to the rental system, uttering a 
conscious falsehood ; in the first place, is the picture you draw 
a true one ? A. Yes, sir ; the picture that I draw is a true 
one. 

Q. It represents the ordinary practice of that institution ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And Dr. Talmage, you think, knew it ? Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, what about these announcements ? A. Well, sir, I 
have heard hundreds of people that attended the Tabernacle 
say that Dr. Talmage told falsehoods when he announced that; 
I know that these people, when they made that statement, 
would have no ill feeling towards Dr. Talmage at all ; would 
go and hear him preach just the same ; I have heard men say 
that he might lie to-day and the next Sabbath they would go 
and hear him preach, and would enjoy his sermon as well as 
ever. 

Q. Did you know it to be a falsehood ? A. I say I don't 
know his heart ; I don't know. 

Q. It is a mighty small matter upon which to get up a false- 
hood V A. That is not for me to judge. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. Do you know that the Trustees told Dr. Talmage that if 
he would come over to their system of paying for pews they 
would pay him $20,000 salary ? A. No ; I don't know that ; I 
know they told him they would increase his salary. 

Q. He refused it, adhering to this system ? A. He would 
refuse any public change in the system. 

Q. No matter what the private gain would be to him ? A. 
Yes, sir. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Didn't he say he would rather receive $2,000 on the free 
church system than $20,000 if the pews were auctioned ? A. 
Yery likely he said that ; I did not hear him ; it would be like 
him. 

Q. It would be in keeping with his state of mind ? A. Yes 
sir. 



356 



By Mr. Wood : 

Q. My mind was Dot very clear in relation to this printed 
circular, and I would like to ask if that printed circular was 
adopted by the Trustees of the church in reference to the 
assignment of seats at the Tabernacle ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you send that out on the occasion of assigning the 
seats ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was the practice then of the Trustees of the church, in 
the assignment of those seats, contrary to that printed circular 
— contrary to the teachings of that circular ? A. Virtually so. 

Q. Who was guilty then of the inconsistency ? A. That is 
not for me to tell. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. There has been one question sent to me just now ? A. 
Please allow me to state if there is any living soul to ask me a 
question, let him ask me now or forever after hold his peace. 

Q. Do you remember, at a meeting of the Session, Dr. Tal- 
mage strongly advocating your interests in opposition to the 
members of the Session ? A. Strongly advocating my interests 
in opposition to the members of the Session ? I don't re- 
member that I had any interest opposite. 

Q. Do you remember him making this remark, at a meeting, 
when your interests were advocated by him, " I will lose my 
right arm before I will let this man drop without a cause ? " 
A. Yes, sir ; I remember that occasion. 

Q. I want to ask you another thing ; have you said to any- 
body that you never would have got your education for the 
ministry unless it had been for Dr. Talmage? A. I said I 
never should, had it not been for the Providence which opened 
the way for me, as it did to labor for the Brooklyn Tabernacle. 

Q. Have you also said that you owed it to Dr. Talmage that 
you are in the ministry? A. In one sense that may be true. 

I. W. HATHAWAY. 

At the conclusion of Mr. Hathaway's examination, Presby- 
tery adjourned. 

J. MILTON GEEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



357 



Apkil 9th, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 9, at 3 p. M. 

The Rev. H. J. Van Dyke, D. D., was called, and being duly 
sworn, testified as follows : 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. Dr. Yan Dyke, how long have you been a member of 
this Presbytery? A. Of this Presbytery, since its organiza- 
tion in 1870. 

Q. How long have you been a pastor in Brooklyn ? A. 26 
years. 

Q. When did you first make the acquaintance of Mr. Hatha- 
way? A. In April or May of the year 1876; I made his ac- 
quaintance as a member of the Committee of Arrangements 
for the General Assembly ; I made the acquaintance of Mr 
Hathaway in the spring of 1876, in tlie month of April or May ; 
he was a member of the Committee of Arrangements to pre- 
pare for the meeting of the General Assembly. 

Q. How often did Mr. Hathaway visit you before going to 
Princeton? A. Well, sir, a number of times; I cannot name 
the number. 

Q. Were all these visits or any of them made at your solic- 
itation ? A. There was no visit made at my solicitation. 
Q. Or at your suggestion? A. No, sir. 

Q. What was the general subject of your conversations with 
Mr. Hathaway ? A. His 'preparation for the ministry ; his 
theological studies. 

Q. In any of these conversations did he give you any in- 
formation in regard to the financial condition of the Tabernacle? 
A. Never. 

Q. When he went to Princeton did you give him a letter of 
introduction to the professors ? A. I did. 

Q. How often have you been at Dr. Talmage's house ? A. I 
can only remember two occasions. 

Q. Will you state the object of these visits if you please, as 
well as you can remember ? A. The first occasion was in the 
month of February or March, 1876, when I called in answer to 
an invitation to attend a meeting of the Committee of Arrange- 
ments ; the committee was to meet in the evening, and I called 
in the afternoon to apologize for my inability to be present 



358 



at the meeting ; the second occasion was on or about the 9th 
of November, 1876. 

A. Did you ever see Dr. Talmage at his house subsequent 
to the meeting of the General Assembly? A. No, sir. 

Q. What was the occasion of your calling at Dr. Talmage's 
house in November, as you have stated ? A. The appearance 
of two articles in the Presbyterian, a paper published in Phila- 
delphia ; the first article, which I had written myself, appeared 
on the 4th of November, as the date will show ; an article 
criticising the one I had written appeared the next week on 
the 11th of November, and as soon as I received the paper I 
went at once to Dr. Talmage's house. 

Q. Did you see Dr. Talmage when you went there ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Who did you see ? A. I saw the servant girl. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage in ? A. The servant girl said he was, 
but would not be seen. 

Q. Is that the article you published in the Presbyterian 
(handing a paper to witness) ? 

A. Yes, sir ; that is the article cut from my own scrap-book, 
with my own endorsement upon the side. 

Mr. McCullagh offers in evidence and reads the whole of 
it at the request of the witness, it being marked Plaintiff's Ex- 
hibit A of this date, April 9, 1879. 

Article written by Dr. Yan Dyke, published in the Presby- 
terian, November 4, 1876 : 

Brooklyn Churches and Books. 

The season of the falling leaf brings with it some important 
changes in our Brooklyn churches, and foreshadows others. 
The pressure of the hard times is severely felt by the church 
treasurers. The most surprising instance of this is the resig- 
nation of Dr. Seaver, pastor of the First Church, on Henry 
street, with the acquiescence of the majority of the people, on 
the alleged ground of a deficiency in the income from pe w-rents. 
Dr. Seaver is the third pastor of that church since the removal 
of the venerable Dr. Cox, about twenty years ago. What ren- 
ders the severance of his pastoral relation for such a cause 
more remarkable, is the unanimous testimony of the people 
that the deficiency is in no way attributable to the pastor, to- 



359 



wards whom they express the utmost admiration and affection 
for his ability and faithfulness. To this estimate of Dr. 
Seaver's character the Presbytery and the whole Christian 
community concur. He is in the prime of life, a scholar o 
fine attainments, and a preacher whose voice and presence 
would favorably impress any intelligent congregation. His 
sermons are always full of Evangelical truth. And yet a ma- 
jority of the Presbytery felt constrained to vote for the dissolu- 
tion of his pastoral relation. 

Is there not something wrong when such men are dismissed 
from churches for such reasons? Perhaps some readers wjII 
suspect that the [cause is to be looked for in what is some- 
times called an unpopular style of preaching, or in the old 
system of pew-rents, as opposed to the plan of voluntary 
weekly contributions. Unfortunately for these explanations, 
the most shocking financial failure in Brooklyn has been 
achieved under exactly the opposite conditions. 

Dr. Talmage certainly is a popular preacher. He is not 
hampered by any old fogy notions as to the method of con- 
structing and delivering sermons. His Tabernacle is always 
thronged. His audiences are numbered by thousands, and the 
additions to his church communion by hundreds. The seats 
in his church are nominally free, though in fact they have 
always received from regular attendants, under the new name 
of " subscriptions," what other churches call by the old name 
of " pew-rents." Besides these subscriptions, collections have 
been taken for the support of the gospel in that particular 
church with such regularity as almost to exclude contributions 
to benevolent objects outside. And yet, in spite of all these 
advantages, a popular preacher, a free church, a concentration 
of benevolence, and an immense audience, that church has 
rolled up on itself, in less than five years, an increase of over 
seventy thousand dollars of debt, making its present indebted- 
ness over one hundred thousand dollars, and compelling them, 
under the pressure of the hard times, to borrow money at the 
rate of one per cent, a month for current expenses. Let not 
the old-fashioned churches, who are in pecuniary difficulties, 
look with longing desire to establishments which are run upon 
new-fangled notions. The evil, whatever maybe its real cause, 



360 



cannot be cured by what is called " popular " preaching, nor 
by the abandonment of the old system of pew-rents. We 
could give other examples to prove this position. And we 
could suggest the real cause and cure for the state of things 
which we deplore. Bat enough has been said for the present 
on this painful subject. 

Let us turn for a moment from Brooklyn churches to Brook- 
lyn books. For the City of Churches is not destitute of 
authors. Some of her fretired ministers, whose voices are 
silent, are bringing forth fruit with their pen. Dr. J. G. But- 
ler, long a pastor in West Philadelphia, is laboriously prepar- 
ing a work on the New Testament, which will combine the best 
features of a life of Christ with a complete harmony of the 
Gospels. Good judges, who have examined the plan of the 
work, and the portion of it which is already finished, are of 
opinion that it will be an addition to our theological literature 
of permanent value. Everything that throws light on the 
Word of God, and especially everything that gives new inter- 
est to the study of the Incarnate Word, ought to be hailed 
with delight. 

Dr. Samuel T. Spear, for twenty-eight years pastor of the 
Old South Church, retired from the pastorate a few years 
since, to become one of the editors of the Independent. Since 
then his studies have been largely devoted to that debatable 
ground which lies between religion and politics. He has re- 
cently published a book, entitled " Beligion and the State," the 
principal object of which is thoroughly to discuss the great 
question of the Bible in the public schools. In the opinion of 
many sober-minded men, this is the great problem of this age 
and country. Many intelligent peopie have been anxiously 
striving to get at the root of this matter ; to settle the question 
in their own minds, upon principles lying back of all religious 
prejudice and partisan feeling. In this effort little aid and 
comfort have been derived from newspaper discussions of the 
subject, which have generally been conducted in a partisan 
spiiit. 

Dr. Spear takes the unpopular side of the question. He 
opposes the use of the Bible in our public schools upon the 
high ground that it is inconsistent ith the duty of the 



361 



Church, with the just prerogatives of the State, and with 
the rights of taxpayers, by whose involuntary contributions the 
schools are supported. We may not accept these conclusions. 
But we Protestants ought to hear the other side. We are no 
more infallible than the Pope is. It is possible that we may 
be wrong. If the Eoman Catholics were in the majority, we 
would certainly think them wrong in enforcing their views 
upon our children. However this may be, no one can read 
Dr. Spear's book without admiring the patient and exhaustive 
method of his argument, and the ability, clearness and candor 
of his statements. 

He has evidently studied the subject in its foundations, and 
in every possible light. Every chapter is in the style of a 
judicial opinion, summing up evidence on either side. No 
reader who is not acquainted with the name and character of 
the author could determine whether he is Protestant or 
Koman Catholic. This, in the minds of many, will be regarded 
as a serious fault. But we think it is a distinguishing excel- 
lence. This great question cannot be safely and permanently 
settled by appeals to the religious prejudices and passions of 
the people. It is only one outcropping of that great contest 
between Church and State which has run through all ages, and 
stained so many pages of the world's history with cruelty and 
blood. God grant that it may never come^to a bloody arbitra- 
ment in this country. He who can contribute anything to its 
peaceful settlement on high principles of law and of liberty 
will do a grand service to the country, to the church, and to 
the world. Augusttn. 

Q. Dr. Yan Dyke, have you ever written any other article 
for any other paper, secular or religious, besides this article, 
about either Dr. Talmage or his church ? A. I have never 
mentioned Dr. Talmage's name in any article I ever wrote, ex- 
cept that one. 

Q. Did you ever have to correct the statements you w T ere 
led to suppose that contained ? A. Well, sir, that appeared 
on the 4th of November, 1876 ; I never made any corrections, 
sir, I think ; I believe the article was correct, and still believe 
it to be so ; but after an interview with Dr. Talmage, in which 
I failed to get his facts and figures, I published, on the 18th or 
46 



B62 



25th of November, I can't be sure which — a card, saving that 
I had made the statements contained in the article, on the 4th 
of November, in good faith, believing them to be correct, and 
that I still believed them to be correct : but, inasmuch as they 
had been questioned, I begged leave to w ithdraw them and al- 
low the readers of the paper to draw their own conclusions 
from information they could get from other sources ; that the 
object of the article w as not to insist upon anything in regard 
to the finances of the Tabernacle, but simply to illustrate the 
groat question of the support of the churches, whether by true 
means or otherwise. 

Q. Have you got that card? A. I have made diligent search 
for it ; have written to the Presbyterian, of Philadelphia, and they 
say they have no extra copy, and cannot allow a tile to go out of 
their office ; ten days ago I wrote for an authentic written copy of 
the card, but have received no answer : I sent to-day to New 
York for a tile of the paper, and I think, probably, before we 
get through, it will be here. 

Q. Have you ever spoken in public about Dr. Talmagc or 
his church ? A. No. sir ; I don't remember ever having 
alluded to Dr. Talmage or his church in any public place. 

Q. Up to the time of your calling upon Dr. Talmagc. in No- 
vember, 1S76\ what had been your relations with him? A. 
Well, sir ; he was a member of the Presbytery of Brooklyn, 
and, personally, my relations had been pleasant with him, 
with, perhaps, the single exception that an unpleasant impres- 
sion had been made on my mind, on the meeting of the Pres- 
bytery, referred to yesterday in the question put to the wit- 
ness in regard to the case of Mr. Mitchell ; if the Presbytery 
wishes me to detail that, I shall do so. 

Q. When did you next see Dr. Talmage after you called at 
his house in November, ISTo' ? A. I should say that the 
oeeasion of my calling at Dr. Talmage's house was the appear- 
ance of an article in the Presbyterian which was published on 
Saturday the 11th : an article signed " Burleigh," impeaching 
the statements which I had made in my article : though the 
Presbyterian is published onSaturday.it usually reaches me on 
Thursday morning : as soon as I got the Presbyterian at the 
Post Office I opened it in the Post Office, saw that letter of 



363 



"Burleigh/' and went straight to Dr. Talmage's house; I think 
it was on the 9th ; it might have been the 10th, and possibly 
the 11th. 

Q. You can't fix the date closer than that ? A. It was made 
in connection with that article ; the servant girl told me that 
he was in, but that he was so engaged he could not be seen 
anyhow ; I left my card and returned to my study ; within a 
half hour, possibly an hour after, Dr. Talmage knocked at my 
door and came into my study and stated if he had known it 
had been me he would have seen me at his house, arid asked 
me why I did not insist upon seeing him. 

Q. Will you state, as far as you can remember, the conver- 
sation at that time between you and Dr. Talmage ? A. Well, 
sir, I can state the substance of that conversation, but I cannot 
pretend, at this distance of time, to give either Dr. Talmage's 
words or my own ; the substance, however, is very clear in my 
mind; the conversation began by Dr. Talmage denouncing — I 
don't use that word in an offensive sense — denouncing the cor- 
rectness, impeaching the correctness, of the article signed 
" Augustine," for which I had at once promptly acknowledged 
that I was responsible : though I don't know that I said at 
that time that I wrote it, yet I was responsible for it, and if 
there was anything wrong in it I wished to have it corrected ; 
he said it was all wrong, incorrect ; I said to him then : "Well, 
sir, then if it is incorrect, if you will give me the correct 
statements, or the material by which I can correct it, and 
allow me to use your name as authority, I will immediately 
write the correction, and send it over and have it put in 
next week;" he declined to give me the material for 
correcting ; the reasons he assigned I cannot be very certain 
of, but I think, however, he said, "I am not familiar with the 
statistics ;" I think he pleaded his inability to correct it, but 
he knew that my statement was wrong ; I then said to him, 
" Will you obtain for me from the authorities of your church a 
statement which I can use, use their name at the same time 
for the correction of that thing wherein it is wrong ?" he said no, 
he would not ; I then asked him if he would give me a note to 
the President of the Board of Trustees, that I might go myself 
and get the material for correcting any error into which I had 



364 



fallen ; be declined that ; then followed a good deal of discus- 
sion on the truth or falsity of the article which I had written, 
leading finally to his demanding my authority, or the grounds 
upon which I had made those statements in regard to the ex- 
isting debt of the Tabernacle ; well, I told him, at first, it was 
a matter of common notoriety, and I knew it also from my 
intimate knowledge of the history and condition of the Central 
Presbyterian Church, having been engaged to some extent in 
the building of that church in the first instance, under the pas- 
torate of Dr. Rockwell, and then I added that I had, for the 
assurance of my mind in the correctness of what I had stated, 
the testimony of some of the present officers of his church ; he 
demanded to know w T ho they were, and I declined to tell him 
who they were ; he then asked me if Mr. Hathaway was one 
of them ; I said no, he was not one ; but I added, "you must 
not misunderstand me ; I said on one occasion to Mr. Hathaway 
my understanding of the facts in the case, and asked him if 
they were correct, and he made no answer, and I construed 
his silence into consent ;" then immediately following that he 
said, " Now, I will tell you about Mr. Hathaway something 
that you ought to know;" and he proceeded then to make a 
statement in regard to Mr. Hathaway ; I don't pretend 
to repeat his exact w r orcls ? but I am very clear as to the mean- 
ing which he conveyed to me ; he said that Mr. Hathaway 
was a dishonest and untruthful man, either in those words or 
words to that effect. He said that Mr. Hathaway had gone 
away from Brooklyn in debt all over town. I recollect dis- 
tinctly that expression, " in debt all over town," and that there 
had been great difficulty and embarrassment on the part of the 
Tabernacle in consequence of those debts ; and then he added 
that Mr. Hathaway's last year of administration in the Taber- 
nacle as the financial agent had nearly ruined the Tabernacle, 
and if it had continued another year it would have ruined the 
Tabernacle. He said something about the funds ; used some 
such word as misused, misappropriated or misapplied ; but it 
was used in connection with the funds. I supposed at the 
time and immediately after that he had used the word" de- 
faulter," but inasmuch as T)r. Talmage solemnly assured me at 
a subsequent interview that he did not use the word defaulter, 



365 



I am not willing now to swear that he did. I only say he con- 
veyed to my mind a meaning of which the word " defaulter " 
is the generic description. That terminated the interview. 

Q. You are sure that when he charged Mr. Hathaway with 
dishonesty, it was in regard to the funds of the Tabernacle? 
A. It was in that connection, and left on my mind the impres- 
sion that the dishonesty was connected with the administra- 
tion of the financial affairs of the Tabernacle. 

Q. Did you believe Dr. Talmage's statements at that time in 
regard to Mr. Hathaway, and if so what course did you pur- 
sue ? A. Well, sir, there are two questions there. 

Q. Take the first one. Did you believe Dr. Talmage's state- 
ment in regard to Mr. Hathaway ? A. I can't say that I did. 
I was in great doubt and perplexity of mind which to believe. 
I was greatly astonished and shocked at the statements, and 
greatly troubled at the fact that as a director of Princeton 
Seminary, I had recommended Mr. Hathaway to the profes- 
sors of the seminary both in my letter and privately, and had 
used my influeuce to get him special facilities in that semin- 
ary. The only thing that made me — I won't say the only 
thing, but one thing that made me hesitate to believe that it 
could possibly be true about Mr. Hathaway was this : I said to 
Dr. Talmage, " If these things were so, how could you send 
him off to Princeton with so much eclat ? " and his answer was, 
" We were glad to get rid of him." I thought that was incon- 
sistent with Dr. Talmage's belief that he was a dishonest man, 
and therefore my mind was in great confusion and uncertainty 
in regard to it. Now as to the second question, what course 
did I pursue? The first thing I did was to write that card that 
I have referred to — a card stating that my former statements 
in regard to the financial condition of the Tabernacle had been 
impeached by the officers of the church — I did not refer to Dr. 
Talmage by name — that I supposed I had good ground for 
what I had stated, but it was not at all material to the pur- 
poses of the article, and therefore I would beg leave to withdraw 
my statements and let the readers of The Presbyterian judge 
for themselves. In regard to Mr. Hathaway, after deliberating 
two or three days, I determined just to do nothing, but to wait 
for farther developments ; to wait until I could go to Princeton 



366 



personally and quietly inquire about his standing ; and when 
I did go over there soon after that, I inquired after him, but 
didn't go to see Mr. Hathaway, and didn't intimate to the 
professors or anybody what I had heard, but simply inquired 
among the students how Mr. Hathaway was getting on, and 
what kind of a man he was, and what was" the general impres- 
sion in regard to his character. 

Q. When and where did you see Mr. Hathaway in regard to 
this matter? A. I heard nothing from, an}'body and said 
nothing to anybody for probably six weeks ; I cannot remem- 
ber exactly the date ; it was either in the latter part of Decem- 
ber or the first part of January ; I think it was the latter part 
of December during what we call the Christmas holidays ; I 
was in my study when Mr. Hathaway came in. 

Q. Relate the conversation between you and Mr. Hathaway 
at that time, and what advice you gave him, if any ? A. Mr. 
Hathaway was very pale wdien he stood at the door, and so 
much agitated that he could hardly respond to my salutation J 
if it is proper I will state what impression that made upon my 
mind ; I told him to come in and sit down and compose him- 
self, to tell me what was the matter; after a little hesitation, 
during which I sat perfectly still, he broke out rather impetu- 
ously with the question whether I had ever slandered his 
character to Dr. Talmage, or whether I had ever made state- 
ments to Dr. Talmage impeaching his integrity in any way ; 
that greatly astounded me, ou the other side, and though I 
don't remember any physical demonstrations, I am not pre- 
pared to deny that I sprung from my chair ; I think very likely 
I did. 

By Dr. Spear : 

Do I understand the witness to say that Dr. Hatha- 
way inquired of him whether he, Dr. Yan Dyke, had 
slandered the character of Mr. Hathaway to Dr. Talmage? 
A. Yes, sir ; whether I had ever made any statements to Dr. 
Talmage derogatory to his character ; and I think either then 
or at a subsequent period of the same conversation, he ex- 
plained his meaning, whether he had ever given away the 
Tabernacle ; whether I had ever said he had given away the 
Tabernacle to me, by revealing its secrets, and thus betrayed 
his trust as a confidential agent. 



367 



By Dr. Spear : 

I am still perplexed about the witness' answer ; 
the point where I am perplexed is this : do I under- 
stand the Doctor to say that Mr. Hathaway asked him whether 
he, Dr. Van Dyke, had done thus and so? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Or asked whether Dr. Talmage had said thus and so? 
A. He asked me whether I had stated to Dr. Talmage any- 
thing derogatory to his character ; though I think his first 
question was, whether I had slandered him to Dr. Talmage, 
and I think he afterwards explained what he meant ; he was 
very much excited at the time, and the question surprised me 
very much ; and whether I rose or not, I said to him, " Now, I 
perceive you have been to see Dr. Talmage and I feel bound 
to take this opportunity, which I have long desired, to tell you 
what he told me about you ; " then I detailed to him what Dr. 
Talmage had told me as already described in my account of 
the first interview with Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Did he ask you for any counsel or didjyou give it to him ? 
A. Mr Hathaway seemed very much overcome ; my impres- 
sion is that the tears came into his eyes ; he seemed very much 
agitated ; I think he shed tears, and he said, using very strong 
language : " What in the name of God am I to do ? " 

Q. State, if you please, just what Mr. Hathaway had charged 
you with having said to Dr. Talmage about him ? A. I only 
recollect the expression, "Did you ever say I gave away the 
Tabernacle to you ? did you ever say that I gave you the ma- 
terial for writing that article signed ' Augustine? ' " to all of 
which I responded no ; I think that was subsequent to my tell- 
ing him what Dr. Talmage had told me, but I cannot be cer- 
tain about the order of it ; I repeated then to Mr. Hathaway 
what Dr. Talmage had said to me ; that he, Mr. Hathaway, 
was a dishonest and an untruthful man ; that he had left 
Brooklyn in debt all over town ; that the debts, had greatly 
embarrassed the Tabernacle, and that he had so handled or 
used the funds of the Tabernacle as almost to ruin it, and that 
another year of such admin istration would ruin it, and that 
they were glad to get rid of him. 

Q. In these circumstances, what advice did you give Mr. 
Hathaway ? A. He asked me if I would bring the matter be- 



368 



fore the Presbytery ; I told him no, I would not ; that I was 
not at all satisfied that it was wise for him to bring it before 
the Presbytery at the present stage ; and that if it were wise I 
was not the proper one to do it, because I was a party in- 
volved ; he then reiterated the question what I should do, and 
I told him the best thing I could think of for him to do was 
to go back to Princeton and take counsel of Dr. McGill, the 
Professor of Ecclesiastical Government, and my reason for 
giving that counsel was not only for his, but for my sake, for I 
thought that would be the best way to communicate to the 
Princeton people that there was some difficulty with Mr. Hath- 
away ; I wished to screen myself, although I did not tell him 
that was my reason. 

0. When and where did you next see Mr. Hathaway ? A. 
In my study about a week — it might have been ten days — 
afterwards ; it was a few days afterwards ; I cannot tell how 
long, sir ; it was in the early part of January, right in connec- 
tion with the holidays. 

Q. State, if you please, as well as you can remember, the 
substance of the conversation .which occurred between you at 
that time? A. Well, Mr. Hathaway came into my study, and 
began by saying that Dr. Talmage had denied making the 
statement to me that I had said he did ; but he hardly got 
through that statement before there was a knock at the door, 
and Dr. Talmage appeared there ; when I said " come in ! v 
he stood there. 

Q. When the knock came at the door what did you say to 
Dr. Talmage ? A. He turned, as though he would go away, 
but I insisted that he should come in. 

Q. Do you remember what you said ? A. I added words to 
this effect: "I think God has sent you." 

Q. Would you relate the conversation between Dr. Talmage, 
Mr. Hathaway and yourself, in your study ? A. It was quite 
a long conversation, as it now is in my mind, but I recollect 
the first part very well ; as soon as he came in I said " Now, 
sir, let me rehearse to you what you told me in this study in 
regard to Mr. Hathaway, and I am glad of the opportunity to 
do it in Mr. Hathaway's presence ;" then I went on and re- 
peated what I have already repeated here twice as the state- 



369 



ment of Dr. Talmage ; in the course of my statement I used 
the word "defaulter;" Dr. Talmage immediately interrupted 
me, aud said : " Sir, I did not use the word £ defaulter,' that 
word is not in my vocabulary ;" I answered promptly, and 1 
think with some resentment, "It matters not to me, sir, 
whether you used the word ' defaulter, ' or not ; you used a 
word meaning defaulter, and you conveyed that idea to my 
mind ; " he made no response to that, that I now remember. 

Q. Is that all that occurred there ? A. Oh, no, sir ; there 
was a great deal of talk about side issues ; I recollect, imme- 
diately after my statement, Dr. Talmage went on to make 
some statements about the condition of things in the Taber- 
nacle — about the presence of the Holy Spirit there, and the 
good that was being done, and complained that I was inter- 
rupting the work of the Holy Spirit in the Tabernacle by these 
things ; I can't remember the language of my response. 

Q. What was the meaning you wished to convey to Dr. 
Talmage's mind? A. I wished to convey to him the idea that 
the work of the Holy Spirit would not be interrupted by get- 
ting at the truth between man and man. 

Q. Do you recollect anything that occurred between Dr. 
Talmage and Mr. Hathaway in your presence at the close of 
that interview ? A. I recollect Dr. Talmage's inviting him to 
come away with him to see Mr. Corwin, and they left the room 
together, though, I -%hink — it is my impression now— that Mr. 
Hathaway returned afterwards in a few minutes for his um- 
brella, or overcoat, or some article he left behind, but no 
further conversation between him and me occurred. 

Q. I would like to ask you if at this time you knew Dr. 
Talmage had called you a notorious liar, a man wdiom he 
didn't want to see until the judgment day ; if at this interview 
you knew it ? A. No, I didn't know it then. 

Q. Can you remember when Mr. Hathaway first told you 
that ? A. Well, sir, so far as my present memory goes, it was 
very recently ; he may have told it to me before ; but if he did 
it passed away from my memory ; it never made a very dis- 
tinct impression on my mind until I had an interview with 
Mr. Hathaway and Mr. Crosby in my study. 

Q. Then you have no distinct recollection that you had 
47 



370 



heard of it until after this interview, at least, in your study ? 
A. I know I had not heard of it uutil after this interview ; Mr. 
Hathaway did not tell me that before Dr. Talmage came, and 
certainly did not in Dr. Talmage's presence. 

Q. Have you ever spoken with Dr. Talmage since that con- 
versation in January, 1877 ? A. Never ; except to touch jny 
hat to him when I met him in the street, or perhaps to recog- 
nize him when he has been in the Presbytery ; I have never 
had any conversation with him since then. 

Q. Did you ask Mr. Hathaway to be a witness in this case ? 
A. No, sir. 

Cross-e.vo.))} [nation by Dr. Speak: 

Q. You had two interviews then with Mr. Hathaway, one in 
the latter part of December or the early part of January, and 
the other some eight or ten days afterwards ; can you fix tbe 
day of these interviews ? A. I cannot. 

Q. Was the first one on Saturday? A. I have no associa- 
tion in my mind by which I can fix the day of the week, sir. 

Q. Was the next one on the next Tuesday morning ? A. 
Well, it was within the next week ; they all occurred — both of 
them occurred about the Christmas holidays ; during the 
time of the Christmas holidays. 

Q. At the second interview, how soon after the coming in 
of Mr. Hathaway did Dr. Talmage come in ? A. I think it 
might have been within five minutes ; may be ten ; I cannot 
fix minutes in such a connection ; it was a very short time 
afterwards, however. 

Q. You have detailed in your direct examination what you 
said to Dr. Talmage, and what he said to you ; now, can you 
give the exact words anywhere ? A. I did give some of the 
exact words in my direct examination. 

Q. Will you just repeat the exact words ; your own exact 
words first, and then his exact words ? A. In regard to 
what ? 

Q. Any point ? A. Do you mean me to repeat both inter- 
views over again ? 

Q. No, you have just done it ; do you undertake in this 
narration to give the exact language you used, and the exact 
language of Dr. Talmage in any instance, and if so, specify in 



371 



what? A. Yes, sir, I do ; I recollect distinctly that Dr. Tal- 
roage said in the first interview with me, when Mr. Hathaway 
was not present, that Mr. Hathaway had well nigh ruined — 

Q. I am speaking now of the second interview, w^hen Mr. 
Hathaway was present ? A. Yes, sir ; I swear to the state- 
ment that when he used the word " defaulter," Dr. Talmage 
interposed and said — either said, " I think I did not," or else 
positively affirmed, " I did not use the word defaulter," and 
added, " that word is not in my vocabulary," and my response 
was, I think, in the very exact words, " I do not care whether 
you used the word defaulter or not, you used words that con- 
veyed that meaning to my mind." 

Q. How long did that interview last, the second one I am 
now speaking of? A. It is very difficult for me to form a very 
definite idea ; I think I would not be very far wrong if I 
should say three-quarters of an hour ; and yet it may not 
have been over half an hour ; it may have been longer, I 
cannot be positive. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage appear ; to be in an excited state of 
mind ? A. Well, I think he was, when he first came in, as 
much as I can judge of him ; but I do not think he w r as to- 
wards the last. 

Q. Did he speak loud and strong ? A. He did not, in con- 
nection with the disputed points when I rehearsed to him — to 
use my own words, " let me rehearse ; " his response to that 
was not loud ; when he, subsequent to that, was describing the 
state of things in the Tabernacle, I think he was — I was going 
to say — vehement ; perhaps that is too strong a word ; he was 
earnest. 

Q. Did you hear from him, the words Mr. Hathaway placed 
on his lips, his saying to Mr. Hathaway, "we have always 
been friends ; we may as well be so still ? " do you remember 
those words ? A. I cannot recall distinctly those words, but 
I remember distinctly he turned to Mr. Hathaway, and in a 
conciliatory way invited him 

Q. Pleasant way ? A. Conciliatory way. 

Q. Would the word "pleasant" describe it? A. That 
would hardly describe it, for he was in dead earnest ; it was 
conciliatory. 



372 



Q. Was it in a kindly way, would the word " kindly " ex- 
press it ? A. I think it was kindly, but more than kindly ; I 
think it was a conciliatory manner ; a desire to appease him, 
as it were. 

Q. Have you had any other interviews, besides these two in 
respect to this difficulty, with either Dr. Talmage or Mr. 
Hathaway after the return of the latter from Brooklyn to 
Princeton ; after the return of the latter from Princeton ? 
A. No, I think not ; allow me to correct that ; I never 
saw Dr. Talmage in regard to it except on two occasions, 
one on or about the 9th of November, and one in the Christ- 
mas holidays ; in the first, Dr. Talmage was alone ; in the 
second, it was Dr. Talmage and Mr. Hathaway ; after that I 
saw nothing of Mr. Hathaway for some days, and knew noth- 
ing of his proceedings until I met him on Broadway in New 
York. 

Q. No matter then about that. A. Allow me to finish it ; 
I think it will thrown some light on the subject ; I do not insist 
upon it. 

Q. It is not material to our purpose to know unless the wit- 
ness desires to do so. A. I do not think it will make for their 
side ; I don't know w 7 hich side it will make for, but I would 
like to give it; I asked him how he was getting on, arid 
whether he was coming back from Princeton ; he said he was 
settling his difficulty with Dr. Talmagn, and I said, " have you 
settled it ?" and he said, " yes," and out took from his pocket a 
paper which he did not read, and said that paper had been 
given him by the Tabernacle, and it was satisfactory, and I 
then said, "you had better go back to Princeton and attend 
to your studies now." 

Q. Take the interview at which Dr. Talmage and Mr. Hatha- 
w*ay were present ; in connection with the whole interview ; I 
want to ask you this question ; was not this whole difficulty in 
your judgment a personal one, as between Dr. Talmage and 
Mr. Hathaway, in which the latter claimed to be wronged by 
the words of Dr. Talmage in regard to him, and wanted to be 
righted ? A. No, sir ; I cannot answer that question. 

Q. I repeat the question again ; was not the whole difficulty 
as it was then brought before your mind, in your judgment a 



B73 



personal one between Dr. Talmage and Mr. Hathaway, in 
which the latter, namely, Mr. Hathaway, claimed to be wronged 
by the words of Dr. Talmage in regard to him, and wanted to 
be righted, as the wrong stood then ? A. I did not get that 
impression. 

Q. What else was there about it, besides that? A. I sup- 
posed from what passed between them, that the church was 
involved ; that it was not a mere personal matter between Dr. 
Talmage and Mr. Hathaway. 

Q. Who else was involved at that time besides Mr. Hatha- 
way and Dr. Talmage ? A. I supposed his whole relations to 
the Tabernacle church as its financial agent was involved ; I 
inferred that from Dr. Talmage's words, that Mr. Hathaway's 
debts had been embarrassing to the whole church — I won't 
say the whole church— but to the church ; I understood by 
that, the officers of the church. 

Q. The language of Dr. Talmage as you have repeated it 
related to Mr. Hathaway ; the accusatory language related to 
Mr. Hathaway as you have repeated ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And it was of that language that Mr Hathaway com- 
plained? A. Yes, sir. . 

Q. That was the whole thing, in its offensive character, was 
it not ? A. I do not know how it lay in Mr. Hathaway's mind. 

Q. So far as you knew ? A. So far as I knew of my per- 
sonal knowledge. 

Q. Then it was a personal difficulty between those two par- 
ties ? A. I did not say that. 

Q. I ask the question ? A. I do not say that it was ; I do 
not think it was ; I did not say at the time that it was a mere 
personal difficulty between those two parties ; I supposed Dr. 
Talmage was speaking in behalf of the officers of the church, 
when he intimated to me that Mr. Hathaway had nearly ruined 
the Tabernacle. 

Q. Did Mr. Hathaway give you any intimations that the 
matter had any other relation to him ? A. I do not know that 
he did. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage give you any intimations that the mat- 
ter had any other relations to him ? A. I have already told 
you that the form and language of Dr. Talmage's statements 



374: 



intimated to my mind that there was a difficulty between Mr. 
Hathaway and his former employers. 

Q. Aud still, directly it was merely a personal trouble be- 
tween these two gentlemen, was it not? A. I have not said 
that. 

Q. I am making that inquiry ? A. T have declined to say 
that several times. 

Q. I am simply repeating the question ; I understand that ? 
A. I did not object to your repeating it, sir. 

Q. Were you at any time prior to the commencement of the 
proceedings against Dr. Talmage made aware of the fact that 
this whole difficulty, whether it involved|the two parties per- 
sonally, or more than the two parties personally, this whole 
difficulty had been honorably and amicably settled as between 
these parties themselves ? A. I had no other opinion on that 
subject except what Mr. Hathaway gave me in the interview 
with him on Broadway, to which I referred, in which he said 
the difficulty has been adjusted, and I have accepted the settle- 
ment. 

Q. Did he use the word " honorable," you used that word a 
moment since ? A. I do not distinctly recall that, and yet it 
is very likely he did ; he said he was satisfied with the settle- 
ment. 

Q. In that interview you had with Mr. Hathaway on Broad- 
way, how long after was it ? A. It must have been but a few 
days, I cannot tell. 

Q. Then no matter what the trouble was, no matter how 
widely it reached, you were informed then and there by one 
of the parties that the whole matter had been amicably and 
honorably settled ? A. Yes, sir ; that he had settled it before 
the session. 

Q. Now, Dr. Yan Dyke, was this fact of settlement very 
soon after these matters which you have detailed present to 
your mind when the 4th Specification was first reported to 
the Presbytery, and finally adopted ? A. Yes, sir ; certainly. 

Q. You knew that the whole matter involved had been 
settled ? A. I knew that there had been an investigation be- 
fore the session of that church, and that a conclusion had been 
reached which satisfied the mind of Mr. Hathaway, so that he 



375 



felt free to go back and pursue his studies, and the professors 
of Princeton were willing to allow him to go on with his 
studies. 

Q. He told you it had been settled ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You recollected that fact when this 4th Specification was 
under consideration, and finally adopted by the Presbytery ? 
A. Certainly I did. 

Q. Did you and Mr. Crosby and Mr. Hathaway have an in- 
terview about the difficulty between Dr. Talmage and Mr. 
Hathaway before the 4th Specification was formulated ? A. 
We did not have an interview in regard to the difficulty be- 
tween Dr. Talmage and Mr. Hathaway. 

Q. About the matter that was involved in that ? A. We did; 
yes, sir ; I do not know whether it was before the 4th 
Specification was formulated or not. 

Q. Before it was adopted ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where was that interview ? A. In my study. 

Q. How long was it ? A. It is very difficult for any man to 
fix the length of time : it is peculiarly difficult for me, I should 
say half an hour may be, more less. 

Q. How happened it to be in your study ? A. I do not 
know ; the two gentlemen came to my study together ; there 
had been no pre-arrangement, evidently. 

Q. Please to state as near as you can, the substance of the 
conversation at that time ? A. Well, sir, there was very little 
conversation, so far as I now remember ; it was said there hy 
Mr Crosby, or by Mr. Hathaway, that they had come to talk 
with me in regard to the question of his giving evidence, and 
my giving evidence in case a trial was had before the Pres- 
bytery ; Mr. Hathaway then said that he had drawn up a 
statement of the facts as they lay in his mind, and wished to 
read it to me ; he did read it to me. 

Q. In the presence of Mr. Crosby ? A. In the presence of 
Mr. Crosby ; when he got through with it he said, I wish to 
ask you, Dr. Van Dyke, the question, whether I ought to be a 
witness in this case ; before I answered, for I hesitated answer- 
ing, Mr. Crosby rose and said, that is not a question for Dr. 
Van Dyke to settle ; I claim that paper ; and if the Committee 
formulate a charge and^specifications, and the Presbytery adopt 



376 



it, we shall cite both of you ; we do not ask you whether you will 
be witnesses or not, we shall cite both of you, and they left 
together immediately after. 

Q. Is that the whole of it? A. That is the substance of it; 
yes, sir. 

Q. Did you suggest that the matter involved in this 4th 
specification should be put in these specifications ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. In no way suggested it ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You knew what the matter was when Mr. Hathaway 
asked whether he should be a witness in this case ; what case 
did he then mean, do you suppose ? A. He meant the case 
under preliminary investigation before that Committee, if it 
should become a real case before the Presbytery, if the process 
should go on and culminate in a trial. 

Q. At this time were you aware of any common fame, such 
as the Book of Discipline defines ; I will read the Book of 
Discipline at that point ; I will read it in order to make signifi- 
cant my question : " In order to render an offence proper for 
" the cognizance of a judicatory on this ground, the rumor 
" must specify some particular sin or sins ; it must be general 
" or widely spread ; it must not be transient, but permanent, 
" and rather gaining strength than declining ; and it must be 
" accompanied with strong presumption of truth ;" now, I ask 
my question, were you then aware of any common fame, such 
as the Book of Discipline defines, charging Dr. Talmage with 
falsehood and deceit, in that he, in the winter of 1876 and 1877 
falsely accused I. W. Hathaway of dishonest practices, and 
afterwards denied that he had done so, are you aware of any 
common fame such as this Book of Discipline defines making 
that specific charge against Dr. Talmage ? A. The question 
is a double one ; I cannot answer yes, sir, or no, to both ; I 
can answer yes to the first, and no to the second. 

Q. Answer the first one ? A. Please read it. 

Q. " Were you aware of any common fame," such as the 
Book of Discipline defines, charging Dr. Talmage with false- 
hood and deceit ? A. Yes, sir, I was ; I answer yes to that. 

Q. Were you aware of such a common fame applicable to 
this matter ? A. Well, sir, that depends upon what you mean 



377 



by applicable ; I do not wish to evade your question ; I see the 
point, and wish to answer it frankly ; I was not aware that the 
accusation ef Dr. Talmage against Mr. Hathaway, charging 
him with dishonest practices, had become common fame, I 
was not aware ; I think it was not a matter of common fame, 

Q. That is, you were not aware that this matter, as pending 
between Mr. Hathaway and Dr. Talmage, was at the time a 
subject of common fame ? A. No, sir ; I thought it was not ; 
I don't think so still. 

Q. You didn't read it in the papers anywhere, did you ? A. 
No, sir; certainly not. 

Q. Did you hear anybody talk about it ? A. No, sir ; not 
in the sense of making any common fame. 

Q. Did you hear Mr. Crosby talk about it ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you hear anybody else besides Mr. Crosby ? A. I 
cannot say I did. 

Q. Did you talk about it yourself? A. When? 

Q. At this time ? A. No, sir. 

Q. At about this time? A. Well, sir, it depends upon what 
you mean by about 

Q. Well, sir, I am starting A. I wish to tell you just 

exactly the facts. 

Q. I will get them out ; after the adjustment of the matter, 
between Dr. Talmage and Mr. Hathaway, in the early part of 
1877, down to about the period when these charges were for- 
mulated, did you hear this matter talked about after it had 
been settled ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Saw no notice of it anywhere in a paper ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Your attention was not called to it ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Was there any general rumor on this subject, namely, 
what I am referring to — this matter between Mr. Hathaway 
and Dr. Talmage — until the Presbytery created it by its own 
action ? A. You see, Doctor, there are two ques'ions again; I 
cannot say the Presbytery created it, but there was no general 
rumor in reference to this fourth specification, before this 
Presbytery took action on this general subject. 

Q. There was no general rumor then upon the mat f er of 
this fourth specification, until the Presbytery acted upon it ? 
A. No, sir. 
48 



378 



Q. Do you suppose there is a wide spread rumor about it 
now ? A. I cannot tell ; I suppose it comes in as a part of 
the whole rumor now. 

Q. You suppose there is now a wide spread rumor about 
this thing ? A. I suppose the testimony given here goes all 
over the country. 

Q. Prior to the action of the Presbytery in regard to this 
specific accusation, was there any general rumor, carrying 
home such an accusation to Dr. Talmage ? A. I have already 
answered, first, that there was a common fame, charging Dr. 
Talmage with falsehood and deceit. 

Q. And with that falsehood and deceit ? A. No, sir. 

Q. There was none else ? A. Certainly not. 

Q. Then whatever there is now, has been created by the ac- 
tion of the Presbytery? A. That I cannot say. 

Q. As far as you know? A. I do not know, sir. 

Q. Can you imagine other causes ? A. I can imagine other 
causes ; yes, sir. 

Q. Now, I am going to ask a question which it will be for 
the witness to decline to answer if he chooses, as he could any 
other question. Is it now your judgment, Dr. Yan Dyke, as a 
minister of the gospel, and a Christian man, that there was 
any necessity for reviving this difficulty that had been settled 
between the parties themselves for more than two years, and 
making it a matter of judicial proceeding against Dr. Talmage? 
A. That is a question for the Presbytery to decide ; I decline 
to decide it. 

Q. My next question is, is such a course in your judgment, 
kind and brotherly and according to the spirit of the Gospel ? 
A. Well, sir, I do not believe that the Presbytery of Brooklyn 
has intended to do anything unkind or unbrotherly, or contrary 
to the spirit of the Gospel. 

Q. Do you think that if the Presbytery had known that the 
matters referred to in the fourth specification had been satis- 
factorily disposed of as is now shown by the testimony, it 
would have incorporated these matters into a charge against 
Dr. Talmage? A. Well, sir, I do not admit in my own mind, 
that the matters involved in the fourth specification bad been 
satisfactorily disposed of. 



379 



Q. The parties said they were ? A. Well, sir, they are not 
the only ones involved in it ; I do not wish to argue the ques- 
tion, Dr. Spear ; we had that all over on the floor of the Pres- 
bytery. 

Q. The Presbytery were not advised of what had been al- 
ready shown ; if they had been advised of the facts as they 
now are, and were at the time, would the Presbytery, in your 
judgment, have incorporated that as one of the charges ? A. 
I think they would, and yet I do not know ; I give that very 
reluctantly, because I do not know what the Presbytery would 
do ; I think they ought to have done so, sir. 

Q. Let me ask another question : Why didn't you give to 
the Presbytery on this point as to the settlement of this diffi- 
culty, the information you had ? A. I did not give them any 
information I had ; it w T ould be manifestly improper to give 
them any information in reference to the matter about which I 
was to be a witness. 

Q. When it was under discussion, whether this specification 
should be adopted or not, why didn't you tell the Presbytery 
that the matter involved had been settled, and you did not 
then know you would ever be a witness? A. The fact that it 
had been settled, so far as Mr. Hathaway was concerned, had 
no relevancy, whether it had been settled so far as the church 
of Christ was concerned. 

Q. It had been settled for two years ? A. I don't care if it 
had been settled for forty years ; if it was wrong, it ought to 
be brought out ; sin does not change in forty years, and right- 
eousness does not lose its savour in forty years ; whether men 
are satisfied with it or not ; I do not mean to intimate by that, 
that this is sin ; I will not put any judgment on that. 

Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Crosby about 
the preamble and resolution which he offered to the Presby- 
tery, which formed the commencement of these proceedings — 
I do not ask for the conversation — did you have any conversa- 
tion ? A.I will not answer that question, unless I am permit- 
ted to give the conversation. 

Q. I will ask another to bring it out ? A. Certainly I did ; 
I do not wish to be over cautious. 

Q. Will you tell what that conversation was ? A. Mr. 



380 



Crosby repeated to me the form of the resolution which he 
had conceived of, and asked me simply the question whether 
in my judgment that would be in accordance with the Presby- 
terian law and usage ; I told him that it would ; there was 
then farther conversation, as to whether he should offer tbat 
resolution ; I declined to advise him on the subject ; that con- 
versation occurred as circumstances fix it in my mind, on Sa- 
turday, the first of February, because it was a brief conversa- 
tion, and I was in haste to depart to Newport, where I was to 
preach on the second ; Mr. Crosby's resolution was offered on 
the third, and therefore I am clear in my mind, that on the 
first day of February he came to my study and asked me the 
question, and when he asked me whether he should offer it — I 
should not say he asked me whether he should or not — but 
when the question, whether he should offer it or not was up, 
I said, " I have no advice to give you but I was emphatic 
in the declaration , "I don't advise you to do it; but you had 
" better consult older men before you take such a step." 

Q. You did not draft it ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You did not see the draft ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You simply heard a statement as to what might become 
a draft ? A. That is according to my present recollections, at 
the time. 

Q. Were you aware that he was going to present this pre- 
amble and resolution, to the Presbytery at the time he did 
present it ? A. I had an impression on my mind that he 
probably would, but I have no certain knowledge of it ; the last 
I remember saying to him as he left my door, was calling him 
back and saying, " Now, Mr. Crosby, do not do this thing, be- 
" cause you said you would do it ;" meaning by that playfully, 
" Now do not feel bound to persevere in what you said you 
" would do, just because you said you would do it," and I ad- 
vised him to take counsel with older men, and when 1 came 
back Monday, I did not know whether the thing was getting 
on or not, and when I came up the stairs, I found the resolu- 
tion was under discussion. 

Q. So you were not there when it began ? A. No, sir ; I 
requested that the resolution might be read. 

Q. Had there been any meeting or meetings of members of 



381 



the Presbytery to consider what course should be pursued in 
regard to Dr. Ta Image, prior to this ? A. Not so far as I 
know ; I never was a participant in any meeting. 

Q. After the investigating committee was appointed — you 
know what committee I mean? A. Certainly. 

Q. Did you have any conference with the committee, or any 
of the members thereof, in regard to the work assigned to 
them ? A. I have never spoken to one of the committee in 
regard to their work, except Mr. Crosby and Mr. Babcock ; do 
you wish to know what I said to them. 

Q. If you can briefly state it ? A. Well, sir, in regard to Mr. 
Babcock ; no, I am mistaken ; that occurred after the report 
had been presented ; Mr. Babcock came to my study to ask a 
question, after the report of the committee had been presented 
to the Presbytery, so that I conferred with no one, and spoke 
to no member of the committee, except Mr. Crosby; and dur- 
ing the continuance of that committee I saw Mr. Crosby sev- 
eral times ; he came to me, and saw me several times. 

Q. He talked about this matter ? A. He asked me a great 
many questions about what I supposed to be the form and 
usage, and law of the Presbyterian Church. 

Q. Did you see the first report made to the Presbytery, ask- 
ing for instructions, before it was made? A. No; I did not 
know any such report was made ; I was astounded, when it 
was made ; I supposed they were to make a report in full. 

Q. Then you had not the resolution you offered, prepared 
before hand? A. No, sir; I wrote it in the pew there extem- 
poraneously. 

Q. I am glad to know of it ; it corrects a false impression 
in my mind ? A. I am very happy to remove it. 

Q. Did you see it before it was presented, the final report 
of the investigating committee, containing the charge and 
specifications ? A. It was read to me before it was presented 
to the Presbytery. 

Q. By whom ? A. By Mr. Crosby. 

Q. Where ? A. In his study. 

Q. After it had been adopted by the committee ? A. I can- 
not say ; I think not. 

Q. For what purpose, so far as you know ? A. So far as I 



382 



know, he wished to get my judgment, as to whether that was 
in accordance with Presbyterian law and usage. 

Q. You had nothing to do with drafting it ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Or making any suggestions in regard to it ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Were you present at anytime at any of the meetings of 
this committee ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You identify that as the article ? A. That is the article 
that has just been read ; yes, sir ; at least it seems to be it. 

Q. You accept it as such ? A. Oh, certainly. 

Q. What were your relations with Dr. Talmage at the time 
you wrote this article ; was he a member of the same Presby- 
tery with you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was the church, about which you wrote, one of the sis- 
ter churches, under the care of this body ? A. Yes, sir ; cer- 
tainly. 

Q. Now, Mr. Van Dyke, what was your object in making 
this specific statement about Dr. Talmage and his church 
under the assumed name of " Augustine" ? A. Well, sir, I do 
not for a moment admit the implication conveyed by your 
words " under an assumed name." 

Q. I strike off the word ? A. I do not admit the implication 
contained in the latter clause. 

Q. I meant no implication ? A. Why don't you say, then, 
under the name of "Augustine," merely. 

Q. What was your object in writing the article under the 
name of " Augustine" ? A. I had no object at all in writing it 
under the name of " Augustine." 

Q. What was your object in writing the article — excuse that 
part which refers to me, for which I thank you ? A. I cannot 
answer that question without referring to the part that relates 
to you ; if you press the question, I will give you the answer ;' 
you understand, that if you press the question, I will give you 
the answer. 

Q. Did you, at the time you wrote this article, and in which 
you made this reference to Dr. Talmage's church ; did you 
know that the contents of that paragraph that refers to him 
were true ? A. Yes, sir ; I knew in the same way that I know 
a greater part of my knowledge ; not through the agency of 
my senses, but through credible testimony. 



383 

Q. Is this your language : " Unfortunately for these expla- 
" nations, the most shocking financial failure in Brooklyn has 
" been achieved under exactly opposite conditions" ; is that a 
proper characterization of the condition of the Tabernacle, as 
you then knew it, "the most shocking"? A. I regarded it so 
at the time. 

Q. Then, after speaking of Dr. Talmage as a popular 
preacher, you say : " the seats in his church are nominally 
" free" — 'nominally' underscored — "though, in fact, they have 
" always received from regular attendants under the name of 
" subscriptions, what other churches called by the old name of 
" pew rents" ; did you know that they were but nominally 
free? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How did you know ? A. I knew it from the information 
of members of the church, and members of the session, and 
members of the Board of Trustees. 

Q. State the persons? A. No, sir ; excuse me. 

Q. Name the parties that gave you the information ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. That you decline ? A. Certainly, for manifest reasons. 

Q. What idea, as to the church system there, did you in- 
tend to convey to the public ? A. I meant to convey the idea, 
that that was just as much a pew church as any other church 
in the Presbytery, and that seat rent was exacted from the 
regular attendants in that church, just as much as any other 
church in the Presbytery. 

Q. Then you meant to say the system called free was a dis- 
guised pew rental system ? A. That is just what I meant to 
say. 

Q. You meant to make that declaration to the public ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you take means to inform yourself as to the truth 
of that fact ? A. I took pains to inform myself before I took 
that line. 

Q. Did you ask Dr. Talmage if it was so ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ask any officer of the session ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you inquire of the Trustees V A. No, sir. 
Q. That is to say you took a rumor ? A. No, sir ; I did not 
take a rumor at all, I took positive information. 



384 



Q. From parties, how mauy ? A. It would be impossible for 

me to name the number. 

Q. A dozen ? A. As many as satisfied my miud. 

Q. " Besides these subscriptions, collections have been 
" taken for the support of the Gospel in that particular church, 
" with such regularity as to almost exclude contributions to 
"benevolent objects;" did you know that to be a fact ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. By what means ? A. By the statistics of the Presbytery, 
and of the General Assembly and the record of the Board of 
Home and Foreign Missions, Church Erection, Sustentation, 
&c. 

Q. You say " the church has rolled upon itself in less than 
" five years, an increase of over seventy thousand dollars in 
debt ; " did you know that ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How did you know it ? A. I knew it from the fact that 
when the new church was dedicated — I would not say from 
the fact, but from public testimony, that when the new church 
was dedicated it was proclaimed to be out of debt, and that 
was less than five years before the time of my writing the 
article ; I knew that on the old Central Church when Dr. Bock- 
well left it, there was a mortgage of twenty thousand dollars 
and that subsequently, there was a second mortgage put upon 
it for fifteen thousand dollars ; that left the whole corporation 
of course in debt thirty-five thousand dollars ; at the time it 
w T as proclaimed in all the papers, in the Presbyterian — the 
very paper I wrote this article for — that the new church was 
dedicated free of debt. 

Q. That is the new Tabernacle after the old one was burned? 
A. Yes, sir ; that that was entirely free from debt and I so 
understood it to be, for a subscription was published that was 
made at the time, and yet I knew afterwards that there was a 
mortgage of thirty-five thousand dollars on the Tabernacle, 
exclusively so called, and that there were bonds issued for 
thirty -five thousand more, and three times thirty-five thousand 
makes a hundred and five thousand. 

Q. How did you get this information ? A.I have told you 
already that I got it from my own knowledge of the pre-ex- 
isting state of things and from information conveyed to my 
mind from officers and members of the church. 



385 



Q. You decline to state who they were ? A. Certainly, I 
do sir. 

Q. [Reading.] " And compelling them under the pressure of 
" the hard times to borrow money at the rate of one per cent, a 
" month for current expenses ; " how did you know that ? A. 
By the same way, from information conveyed by officers of 
that church ; but in regard to that point when Dr. Talmage so 
stoutly denied it in my study, at the first interview ; I said "if 
" you will allow me to put your denial into the Presbyterian, 
" correcting it, I will do it with greatest of pleasure ; " he 
declined to allow me to use his name to do it ; then I offered 
if he would give me a statement from the President of the 
Trustees, I would take that with great pleasure and put it in ; 
he declined that also ; then the next week I put in a card say- 
ing, that my statements had been impeached, and I begged 
leave to withdraw them although I believe them to be true. 

Q. Didn't you, soon after the appearance of your letter in 
the Presbyterian, receive a letter from the editor of that paper 
calling your attention to this statement, and asking permission 
to give the real name of " Augustine " to the Trustees of the 
Brooklyn Tabernacle ? A. I do not recollect anything at the 
time ; I gave the real name immediately as soon as I was 
asked ; I gave the real name within seven clays from the ap- 
pearance of the article. 

Q. You do not lemember whether you did receive such a 
letter ? A. I do not ; if I did, I responded that they should 
give the name. 

Q. You have not the letter in your possession ? A. No, sir ; 
I have none such in my possession. 

Q. Have you a memory that you received more than one ? 
A. I did not say that I received one ; I do not remember that 
I received one, but I think it is probable that I did, though I 
do not remember. 

Q. Did you consent or not to the giving of your name to the 
editor of that paper to the Trustees of the Brooklyn Taber- 
nacle ? A. I of course cannot remember what 1 answered if I 
do not remember the letter I got ; but I made no concealment 
to Dr. Talmage when he came to my study, saying to him I 
was responsible for that article, 
49 



386 



Q. Did you give your consent to the editor of the Presby- 
terian that your name as the author of that article should be 
made known to the Brooklyn Tabernacle? A. I have no re- 
membrance that my consent was ever asked. 

Q. You do not recollect anything about it ? A. No ; it would 
not have made any impression on my mind, for I had no in- \ 
tention of concealing the name. 

Q. I do not impute any such thing by my question ? A. I 
know you do not* 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage pronounce your statement to be false 
in that interview he had with you ? A. I do not know r that 
he used that word. 

Q. Wrong, incorrect ? A. Yes ; very likely he used the 
word false. 

Q. Did you think the statement was calculated to disparage 
or not the Tabernacle as one of the sister churches of this 
Presbytery ? A. It depends upon what you mean by the word 
disparage. 

Q. Injured ? A. No, sir ; the truth never injures anybody. 
Q. Injured its reputation ? A. No, sir ; not its just reputa- 
tion. 

Q. Its reputation as it was before the publication of that 
article ; w r ould it do any harm ? A. No, sir ; not if true. 

Q. Was such a statement made about your church — sup- 
pose 1 wanted to publish in a paper the indebtedness against 
your corporation and comment upon it ; would you like to have 
it done ? A. I have no objections at all, if you w T ill state the 
truth about it. 

Q. There are some truths that had better not be told ? A. 
Well, not facts about churches ; all concealment is wrong 
there. 

Q. There are some truths that the people are not entitled to 
know, are there not ? A. I think they are entitled to know 
everything about the church. 

Q. You have detailed this interview with Dr. Talmage ; 
when did Dr. Talmage call to see you in consequence of the 
appearance of this article ? A. He called to see me in conse- 
quence of my call upon him ; I left my card at his house. 

Q. He learned you had been there? A. Yes, sir; I made 
the first call. 



387 



Q. In this interview between you and Dr. Talmage, after the 
appearance of the article in the Presbyterian, you having first 
called at his house, and not seeing him, and he then calling at 
your study, did Dr. Talmage appear to be in an excited and 
indignant state of mind at your action ? A. Oh, well, sir, 
those are such vague words ; he was excited and indignant, 
and yet there was nothing in his excitement or indignation that 
was offensive to me personally ; I do not object to men's be- 
ing indignant and excited if they have cause for it. 

Q. Were any other parties present ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you express to him any regrets for that statement ? 
A. I do not remember that I did, but I think it would be very 
natural if I should say to him : " If the statement was incorrect, 
" I am sorry for it ;" but that was hypothetical entirely. 

Q. Did you express no regret ? A. No ; I expressed no re- 
gret for making an exact statement. 

Q. You made no apology at all? A. No, sir. 

Q. This whole difficulty in regard to Mr. Hathaway, as re- 
ferred to in the fourth specification, grew out of the article 
which you published in the Presbyterian, did it not ? A. I am 
not prepared to say that, sir. 

Q. It was the incipient fact that stands connected with the 
whole, was it not ? A. I do not know that, sir, at all ; I rather 
think not. 

Q. I do not say it might have occurred so, but historically 
it is? A. My knowledge of it does not go far enough for that, 
sir. 

Q. Did you, at or about this time, at the time when the ar- 
ticle in the Presbyterian made its appearance, have any con- 
versation with the Brooklyn Presbytery in regard to Dr. Tal- 
mage and his church ? A. Not that I remember. 

Q. Did you not, at or about this time, say to a member of 
the Presbytery of Brooklyn that the Tabernacle church was 
rotten and a sinking concern ? A. I have no recollection of 
using any such language. 

Q. Did you, at or about this time, say to any member of the 
Presbytery of Brooklyn, that that church was swamped by an 
indebtedness of more than a hundred thousand dollars, and 
that it must be sold by an auctioneer ? A. I have no recol- 



388 



lection of having used any such language ; of course I cannot 
swear to a negative. 

Q. Did you, at or about this time, say to any member of the 
Presbytery of Brooklyn, that Mr. Talmage was a buffoon ? A. 
No, sir ; I never remember to have used any such language in 
regard to Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Did you, at or about this time, say to any member of 
the Presbytery of Brooklyn, that Dr. Talmage was not fit to 
be in the Presbyterian church, and therefore he ought to be 
got out ? A. Well, sir, that is a complicated question ; I have 
no recollection of using that language. 

Q. To that effect ? A. Allow me to answer in my own way ; 
I think it is very likely that I may have said — although I have 
no recollection of having said so — it has been my opinion that 
Dr. Talmage had not the qualifications for a Presbyterian 
minister ; that his sympathies were not with the Presbyterian 
church, and that he was out of his place in the Presbyterian 
church, and having that opinion, I may have expressed it, but 
I never to my recollection said that he ought to be got out of 
it ; I am very sure I never said any such thing ; I may have 
said I thought Dr. Talmage would be happier in some other 
connection than in the Presbyterian church, and I believe so 
now. 

Q. Were you interviewed by a reporter of the Eagle on or 
about the 30th of January, 1879, in regard to Dr. Talmage ? 
A. Well, sir, a reporter called at my study, but we had no in- 
terview in the technical sense of the word, for I declined any 
interview ; but I will tell you what passed between us. 

Q. You did talk with him? A. Well, sir, I stood outside of 
my study door and talked with him about one minute and a 
half or two minutes. 

Q. Did you at that time with this reporter, speak of a con- 
sultation of clergymen about Dr. Talmage ? A, No, sir ; he 

asked me the question whether 1 think you had better let 

me state it in my own way. 

Q. We will bring it out all right ; I hold in my hand 1 

suppose the court will take for granted the truth of it without 
my swearing to it — an article from the Eagle, entitled " In hot 
Water," printed January 30, 1879, which purports to make 



389 



some statements, and adverts to a prominent clergyman of 
Brooklyn, and I will take the liberty as counsel to read just a 
single clause of it, for the purpose of asking the witness 
whether he identifies himself with the party — with your per- 
mission to do so, Mr. Moderator. 

Mr. Millard reads as follows : " No gain had been made so 
" far as he could see ; indeed, matters had grown worse and 
" worse, and Dr. Talmage had ceased to be a Presbyterian, 
" long ago ; in the opinion of the clergyman, Brother Talmage 
" ought to come out and boldly declare he was not a Presby- 
" terian, and become an independent preacher of the gospel.' 1 

Dr. Spear — I incorporate that as part of my question. 

Q. Do you identify yourself as the clergyman meant there ? 
A. No, sir ; not as using such language as that. 

Q; So that you have no responsibility for it ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Now, have the kindness to state what you did say ? A. 
Of course I do not pretend to state exact language, and above 
all, I do not pretend to contradict statements, which the re- 
porter may have made, and to which I have made no response ; 
but I recollect while busily engaged with another gentleman 
on another subject entirely in my own study, there came a knock 
at my door ; it was on the Thursday prior to the Sabbath ; I 
was greatly pressed for time, and told the young man so ; I 
said : " If you have come to interview me, your visit is in vain ; 

I do not want any interview ;" he said he just wanted to ask 
me a single question ; I said, " What is it ? " well, he said, " Is 
" this Talmage matter coming up before the Presbytery on 
" Monday ? " I said, " I do not know ; " he said, " Won't it 
"probably come up?" I said, "It may come up, but I 
" don't know ;" he said, " Has it been talked over? " I said, 
" I believe it has, but I cannot give you any information on 
" the subject ; " and then in two or three minutes at the fur- 
thest — I do not think it was two minutes — he himself made 
some remarks about Mr. Talmage, to which I made no re- 
sponse ; as he went down stairs, I called out, and said, " Now, 
" young man, remember I have had no interview with you, 
" and I don't want you to say anything about it ;" or words 
to that effect. 



390 



By Mr. Millard : 

Q. A very few questions as to tliat matter we are now on ; I 
ask you whether the phrase, " that he ought to "be an inde- 
" pendent preacher of the Gospel ; whether that part of was 
right ?" A. I am very sure I did not use that expression to 
that reporter, and yet I will not say sure, that I would swear 
I did not, or that I would impute any wrong to him in put- 
ting that language into his mouth, because, as I said before, 
I will never swear that I did not express an opinion, that I 
held, for I am quick to express any opinion I have. 

Q. Does it grow out of the fact that you had any feeling at 
that time, that he ought to be an independent preacher of the 
Gospel? A. I cannot say that I had a feeling at the time. 

Q. I thought you said a little while ago that you had felt he 

would be better and happier ? A. I say, I did not have 

it specially at that time ; my mind was absorbed with quite a 
different subject. 

Q. Can you remember that that was your state of mind at 
the time ? A. I do not think I had a state of mind in regard 
to Dr. Talmage at all ; I was completely absorbed in the in- 
vestigation on another subject, with another man. 

Q. When you stated a little while ago, that you thought he 
would be happier and better as an independent preacher, can- 
not you give about the date when you said that ? A. I did 
not say that I felt that at any particular time, but I have had 
it for a long time. 

Q. How long a time? A. For about six or seven years. 

Q. To how late a period have you had it? A. Ever since I 
have been familiar with his methods of preaching. 

Q. Up to the present time ? A. Yes, sir ; certainly. 

Q. When Mr. Hathway and Dr. Talmage had met together 
in your study, and Dr. Talmage had denied that he used the 
word " defaulter," did you believe then that he thought he 
did not use it ? A. Oh, well, sir, I do not think I discussed 
the question a moment in my mind; when a man says, flatly 
to me, "I did not use that word," I take it at once ; my re- 
sponse, though, expressed my state of mind ;I said, "I do not 
" care whether you used the word defaulter or not, you con- 
" veyed a meaning to my mind, of which the word ' de- 
" faulter ' is the appropriate expression." 



391 



Q. As the result of that interview, doctor, did you come then 
to the feeling that Dr. Talmage had made a false charge and 
then denied it ? A. No, sir, I did not ; in the first place I had 
no personal knowledge that he denied it. 

Q. He denied it to you ? A. No, sir. 

Q. He did not deny that he had accused Mr. Hathaway of 
being a defaulter, didn't he ? A. I used that word, but when I 
said it was the appropriate expression of what he meant he 
made no response. 

Q. Did you understand he intended to admit that he meant 
that ? A. Yes, sir ; but I did not know that he meant he had 
falsely accused him. 

Q. Have you at any time since come to the knowledge of 
anything that warrants you in thinking or saying that he did 
falsely accuse him ? A. Well, sir, that is a question we are 
trying here; I will answer, however, frankly, if you think it 
proper for me to do so ; the accusation that Mr. Talmage 
made against Mr. Hathaway was a very painful one to me ; not 
only because I was interested in Mr. Hathaway, in his earnest 
desire to go into the ministry, but because as a director of the 
Princeton Seminary I was, in a measure, responsible for his 
presence in that institution, and even after Mr. Hathaway had 
told me that they had had a settlement of the matter before 
the Session, 1 did not know how far that settlement was of the 
nature of a compromise; I did not know whether there was 
anything really against Mr. Hathaway or not ; I rather sus- 
pected that there was ; I gave Dr. Talmage the benefit of that 
suspicion against Mr. Hathaway, and hence, in my frequent 
visits to Princeton I always made quiet investigations in re- 
gard to it ; I watched him very closely ; I should say I did not 
know until the beginning of this trial that Dr. Talmage had 
given Mr. Hathaway a letter to Princeton ; I did not know of 
any of the correspondence that had been passing between Mr. 
Hathaway and Dr. Talmage ; I did not know the Sunday- 
school had pledged him $500 a year ; all this is new to me, 
and of course it has its weight on my mind, as clearing up Mr. 
Hathaway's character ; certainly I did not think he was a 
„ guilty man at the time I voted for his admission into the 
Presbytery, otherwise T should not have done so. 



392 



Q. I want to ask you whether you think you could have 
been mistaken as to the charge Dr. Talmage made against Mr. 
Hathaway at that time ; is not it possible you are mistaken as 
to what he intended to charge against him ? A. When you 
use the word possibility, you use a very strong word ; it is 
possible I might have been mistaken as to Mr. Talmage's be- 
ing present in my study at all. 

Q. You do not remember even that, and so think you may 
possibly be mistaken ? A. No, sir, I do not ; it is a wrong 
construction of Mr. Talmage's being there ; but when you say 
possible, all things are possible with God ; there is no moral 
possibility that I should be mistaken. 

Q. As to his manner, you mean to swear that you are abso- 
lutely certain he meant to charge him as being a " defaulter " 
to the funds of the church ? A. I only claim the average abil- 
ity to comprehend the human lauguage, and I solemnly say, 
under my oath, that I then believed, and that I now believe, 
Dr. Talmage meant to convey to my mind the accusation that 
Mr. Hathaway had in such a sense misused the funds of the 
Tabernacle as to constitute him a " defaulter." 

Q. Yes, sir ; but you do not remember the words ? A. I do 
remember the words, I remember some of the words ; I re- 
peated them three or four times ; I remember his saying he 
was a dishonest and untruthful man ; I remember his saying 
he had so misused or abused — I could not swear to that word 
— it was done something to the funds of the Tabernacle as 
almost to ruin it during the past year, and that he (Dr. Tal- 
mage) believed another year of his administration would abso- 
lutely ruin it. 

Q. Would those words, as you have stated them, necessarily 
imply he was a defaulter ? A. In connection with the state- 
ment " that he was a dishonest and untruthful man." 

Q. Would those words necessarily imply that his dishonesty 
took that direction ? A. That is as a man would take it. 

Q. That is as near as you can come to his language, that 
" he has so misused and so misappropriated the funds of the 
" church as to nearly ruin the church ? " A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I want to ask you one question while I think of it, doctor ; 
in regard to those persons that gave you the indebtedness of 



393 



the church ; you declined to state the names, but can you tell 
us anything about the number ? A. Shall I give you the rea- 
son why I decline to state the names ? 

Q. No, I do not care anything about that ; but give us, as 
nearly as you can, the number ? A. Probably three or four. 

Q. Doctor, why did you take such pains to proclaim that 
matter to the world ? A. In the first place, I did not take 
pains to do it ; in the second place, in the sense in which you 
seem to use the word, I did not proclaim ; I simply stated 
what was perfectly notorious, and what I have since seen in a 
printed circular, printed by the Board of Trustees themselves. 

Q. If it was perfectly notorious, why state it at all ? A. It 
was altogether notorious that Dr. Spear had written a book on 
" Church and State." 

Q. Here in Brooklyn, perhaps ? A. Pretty notorious wher- 
ever the papers go ; I wanted to make it a little more noto- 
rious. 

Q. Suppose it was notorious, what object had you to gain 
in publishing that indebtedness ? A. I had no object to gain 
in the world; but I was discussing a great principle as to 
whether the decadence of our great churches grew out of any- 
thing in the ministry, or whether it grew out of anything in 
our system of sustaining the churches ; I wanted to convey 
the idea that the fault was not with the ministry or the old 
method of sustaining the church ; I could give further reasons, 
but this is enough for the present ; my further reason was, 
that it grew out of a perverted apprehension in the public 
mind as to the design of the church and the lack of zeal in 
the chureh for her peculiar institution. 

Q. Why is it any more necessary to publish the indebted- 
ness of a church than the indebtedness of a firm if you get 
hold of it? A. Well, the cases are not at all parallel ; if the 
indebtedness of a firm is a matter of personal interest to any 
number of people, that number of people had a right to 
know it. 

Q. Is it almost always V A. Not always. 
Q. Is it to the creditors ? A. It is to a certain extent. 
Q. Would you feel, therefore, if you got hold of the indebt- 
edness of a firm in New York to spread it abroad in the 
50 



394 



papers ? A. Well, sir, I am not a business man, and I can- 
not solve that question ; but I, as a Christian minister and 
member of the Presbytery, claim that every minister and 
every church and every Presbytery has a right to know about 
all the other churches ; sometimes the members of a firm 
have a right to know about each other. 

Q. As to the amount of indebtedness, do you think you 
have stated it correctly ? A. Yes, sir ; except a little below 
the mark. 

Q. That it is over a hundred thousand dollars ? A. I do 
not say so now, but at that time. 

Q. Did you know that within a short period that they had 
built two new churches ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Wasn't that an important factor when you were discuss- 
ing the system of the Brooklyn Tabernacle if they were in 
debt, to state how they came in debt ? A. Yes, sir, that 
ought to be stated, except for the fact that when the new 
church was built it was proclaimed to be out of debt. 

Q. Where was it proclaimed ? A. From the pulpit, from the 
newspapers, and it was put in the Presbyterian. 

Q. You state that when you got some information or some 
denial of these statements, you did send a card withdrawing 
it ? A. I did ; I sent a card to this effect : that when I made 
those statements I believed them to be true, and still believed 
them to be true. 

Q. Is that a withdrawal? A. Hear me out, and you can 
then judge whether it is ; but inasmuch as the selection of 
my information has been impeached, I withdraw the state- 
ment, so far as I am concerned, because I said my object was 
not to insist how much debt was due on the Tabernacle, but 
to illustrate the principle I was discussing. 

Q. Was that a withdrawal ? you say, " still I believe it to be 
so;" or have you withdrawn anything? A. I meant to say 
this : that I wanted the readers of the Presbyterian that if 
there was anything involved in the conflict between myself and 
Dr. Talmage, or anybody else, to be given the full benefit of 
Talmage's denial. 

Q. But to understand you as still reiterating it? A. As 
fully believing my statement ; if Dr. Talmage had given me 



395 



facts and figures to show that I was wrong, I should have 
come out the next week stating I was wrong ; but he declined 
to convince me and I was not willing, especially as he said the 
reason why he did not give the figures was that he did not 
know anything about it ; I was not willing to state his simple 
denial overturning what I believed to be a positive fact. 

Q. How many times did Mr. Crosby call upon you about 
these specifications ? A. I do not think he called upon me at 
all ; the only time he showed me these specifications or read 
them was in his own study when I called one morning, not for 
that purpose at all, but for another purpose ; then he read 
them to me, and asked if in my own judgment that was ac- 
cording to Presbyterian law and usage. 

Q. I understand you to say you told him he had better talk 
with other persons ; did you suggest any persons he should 
talk with ? A. You refer to my interview with him on the 
Saturday before he brought his resolutions to the Presbytery ; 
my impression is that I told him to talk to his uncle, whom I 
regarded as good counsel and an older man. 

Q. Who is he? A. The Eev. Dr. Howard Crosby of New 
York, and I don't know but what I mentioned a member of 
this Presbytery, but I won't be certain ; I have in my mind 
now a man in this Presbytery to whom I told Mr. Crosby he 
had better speak before he took so important a step. 

Q. You spoke of that first time you called at Dr. Talmage's 
and failed to see him ; is that the interview in which Mr. 
Hathaway testified that he was told about Mrs. Talmage run- 
ning him down unawares ? A. I know of no such interview 
then. 

Q. Do I understand that to be the time referred to ? A. I 
do not know anything about it ; it may be that when I called 
there in February or March, 1876, that the daughter let me in 
and Mrs. Talmage didn't know it ; but certainly when I called 
there in November, a woman whom I took to be the servant, 
and who I am sure was the servant, opened the door and I 
walked into tbe entry, and she insisted that I could not see Dr. 
Talmage, and I left my card or a piece in my note book torn 
out with my name on it. 

Q. I suppose Dr. Talmage's state of mind toward Mr. Hath- 



396 



away had been this ; that he had been abusing his financial 
position, that he had been trading upon that position to get 
credit, that he had been abusing it in such a way as has been 
indicated here, to get persons to receipt their bills to him ; 
might he not have intended in what he said to just simply state 
that fact and you misapprehended him ? 

The Witness — I will answer that ; it is a simple principle of 
casuistry. 

Q. At the time you had that interview with the reporter 
you did not then believe Dr. Talmage had told any falsehood, 
did you? A. That is the question we are to try. 

Q. Are you willing to answer it? A. Do you mean in refer- 
ence to this fourth specification ? 

Q. At the time you had this interview with the Eagle re- 
porter did you then believe, with all the knowledge you had, 
that Dr. Talmage had told falsehoods? A. Do you mean in 
reference to this fourth specification? 

Q. In reference to anything? A. I cannot answer that ; I 
could not say just this, that I never would have voted in the Pres- 
bytery to accept these charges and specifications if I had not 
believed the report of that committee that there was probably 
evidence to sustain the charge ; I think that would be a great 
outrage, but when you ask me that I believe Dr. Talmage had 
been guilty of falsehood, I must say I did not believe it in any 
such sense as not to leave me entirely open to a square and 
fair investigation of the facts. 

Q. Your mind had not been made up at that time ? A. No, 
sir. 

By Dr. Spear : 

Q. The language of the specification is : " In that in the 
winter of 1876 and 1877, he falsely accused I. W. Hathaway of 
dishonest practices ;" there is one proposition — " and after- 
wards denied that he had done so ;" now, what did Dr. Tal- 
mage, in your hearing, deny at any time ? A. He never 
denied that he had made accusations against Mr. Hathaway, 
but he never admitted, of course, that he had made them 
falsely. 

Q. What did he deny ? A. He did not deny anything in 
my hearing, except that he denied that he had used the word 
" defaulter ;" that is all he used in my hearing. 



397 



Q. The entire denial of Dr. Talmage related to that simple 
word defaulter ? A. That is all, sir. 

Q. He said he did not use that word? A. That is all. 

Q. I want to call your attention very strongly to that point? 
A. That is according to my best remembrance ; I have only 
Mr. Hathaway's word in that connection as to the fact that 
Dr. Talmage denied he made these accusations against him ; 
Mr. Hathaway says he denied it. 

Q. The specification is that, " in that in the winter of 1876 
and 1877, he falsely accused I. W. Hathaway of dishonest 
practices, and afterward denied that he had done so," and now 
all the denial to which the witness testifies is that he denied 
using the word defaulter ? A. That is all I know. 
By Mr. Mo Cullagh : 

Q. Did you, after the stage of the preliminary proceedings 
of this trial, suggest to or advise Mr. Crosby to bring this mat- 
ter to the Presbytery ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Was the interview between Mr. Hathaway, Mr. Crosby 
and yourself relative to the propriety of Mr. Hathaway becom- 
ing a witness in this case, held in your study at your sugges- 
tion or by your appointment ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you ever give Mr. Hathaway any advice as to the 
propriety or impropriety of him becoming a witness ? A. T 
certainly did not before the time of the commencement of the 
action ; I may afterwards. 

Q. And during these preliminary proceedings ? A. No, sir ; 
I am not quite sure I did not ; afterwards Hathaway told me, 
and I told him that it was his duty as a member of the Pres- 
bytery to answer the citation. 

Q. Why didn't you give the names of the persons who gave 
you the facts about the finances of the Tabernacle ? A. For 
two reasons — because my knowledge of the facts does not rest 
upon their testimony ; there are other sources of information 
which would satisfy me just as well if I had not their testi- 
mony, but that information has been acquired since ; then, a 
second reason is, that unless there is a necessity for the ends 
of justice, it is never proper to reveal private conversations 5 
and a third reason is, that I don't wish to get them into the 
same kind of trouble that Mr. Hathaway is in. 



398 



Q. I want to ask you a question, and want you to answer it 
fulJy ; you have been catechised a great deal in regard to an 
article you wrote in the Presbyterian ; did you write that ar- 
ticle with the specific design of giving publicity to the facts it 
contains in regard to the financial condition of the Tabernacle, 
or was it a secondary motive ? A. That was secondary, of 
course. 

Q. Give us your specific object ? A. Well, the specific ob- 
ject of that part of the article which you see is a kind of con- 
glomerate — was to discuss the question in regard to the finan- 
cial support of the churches, to answer the question what is 
the matter ; that is the specific design of that part of the 
article. 

Q. What was the specific design of the whole ? A. Well, 
sir, I was at that time an occasional correspondent for the 
Presbyterian, and was in the habit of writing one thing and an- 
other, being laid up in my mind, and when there was enough 
there to fill a column just writing it, and these things came up 
successively ; the first article in that article that came to my 
mind, and the seed of the whole article, was Dr. Spear's book. 

Q. Were you asked to write a review of that ? A. Never 
mind ; excuse me. 

Q. I simply want to get at the whole of that article ; we 
have a little private information here, and I would like to get 
a little more ? A. Never mind that. 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. I expect you are rather wearied by this time ? A. No, 
sir ; this examination has been so pleasantly conducted that it 
has not wearied me. 

Q. You were asked in various forms as to whether this diffi- 
culty, about a mere personal difficulty between Dr. Talmage 
and Mr. Hathaway and you, responded to that that you did not 
consider it as a mere personal difficulty ; that his relations 
with the church seemed to be involved but a part, and sup- 
posing that that was settled, was there nothing else in the facts, 
as you knew them, that could not be settled ? A. Certainty, 
sir ; you cannot condone a crime on either side ; if Dr. Talmage 
falsely accused Mr. Hathaway, Mr. Hathaway had not it in his 
power to settle that with the Christian ministers ; on the other 



399 



hand, if he truly accused Mr. Hathaway, Dr. Talmage hadn't 
it in his power to condone that with Mr. Hathaway, especially 
as he was coming into the ministry ; if there is a wrong be- 
tween two ministers, whichever is guilty, they cannot settle it ; 
it belongs to the church. 

Q. Is it a personal difficulty between Dr. Talmage and Mr. 
Hathaway that is included in that fourth specification? A. 
No, sir ; I think not ; it did not so strike my mind, or I would 
not have voted for it ; it is the question whether the accusation 
against Dr. Talmage for falsehood and deceit is true, and 
whether that specification can be sustained. 

Q. There is one other point I would ask you ; what do you 
conceive to be based upon general rumor in this affair ? A. 
The charge of falsehood and deceit. 

Q. Might there be a general rumor of all the specifications 
of which were private ? A. I have known such cases. 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. Was Mr. Hathaway one of the officers whose names you 
declined to give, who furnished you with that information ? A. 
No, sir ; Mr. Hathaway never gave me any information what- 
ever in regard to the financial condition of the Tabernacle. 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

I beg to make here an explanation which has been mis- 
apprehended ; I read three or four times the article 
which lias been put in evidence here ; I listened with 
great attention to the cross-examination in regard to that 
article ; I have perceived, or conceive I perceive, the object of 
the counsel to make that article the pivot of this whole charge ; 
now I waut to know, for my own information's sake, in regard 
to the exact mental condition of the witness when he wrote 
that article, whether his specific design was to spread broad- 
cast any intimation against the gentleman whom I have learned 
to respect and admire. 

The Witness — I said that was not the object. 

Mr. McCullagh — 1 wanted that personal information to 
come out. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. One question as to that debt ; when Mr. Hathaway 
called and you ran it over, you made it a hundred thousand 
dollars in his presence ? A. Yes, sir. 



400 



Q. And he, by his silence, assented to the correctness of 
that ? A. Yes, sir ; he said nothing. 

Q. You considered him as assenting to the truth of it ? A. 
Yes, sir ; I honor him for his reticence. 
By Mr. Hathaway : 

Q. Dr. Van Dyke, I wish to learn something more clearly 
of the debt ; the time when Dr. Talmage visited your study 
and told you that I was a dishonest man and a defaulter, 
or something of that kind? A. "Well, sir, my article in the 
Presbyterian appeared on the 4th of November ; the article 
contradicting that appeared on the 11th of November; I usu- 
ally get my Presbyterian on the Thursday morning preceding 
the Saturday of the day of publication ; I know I went straight 
to Dr. Talmage's house when I got my Presbyterian at the 
office, or immediately after, and if I got it at the usual time 
that week it was the 9th of November. 

Q. Was it the same day ? A. Certainly ; I went to his 
house, and the servant said he was engaged ; I left my card, 
came back to my study and went to my work there, and within 
half an hour, or an hour at the furthest, Dr. Talmage came. 

Q. Who complained of that part of your statement speaking 
of the indebtedness, did he ? A. Yes, sir ; I told him that I 
had information that satisfied me of the correctness, or I never 
would have made it ; he demanded my authority, and I said, 
" I have the authority of the officers of your own church ;" he 
said, " Was Mr. Hathaway one of them?" I said, "No, he was 
not," and immediately after I said, "Now, don't misunderstand 
me ;" I on one occasion said to Mr. Hathaway, " What is the 
debt of the Tabernacle ?" and you declined to talk on that 
subject, and I said, playfully, "If you don't know, I will tell 
you ;" and I ran over the items and you made no answer ; that 
is what I told Dr. Talmage. 

Q. What did he tell you the indebtedness was? A. He did 
not tell me. 

Q. Did he tell you it was much less than that ? A. He said 
"yes ;" that the article written by "Burleigh " stated the fact 
correctly, and that article said the debt was $35,000, all told. 

Q. What called out from him these remarks in relation to 
me ? A. Immediately following, when I said I had said to you 



401 



what my apprehension of the debt was, and you were silent ; 
then he immediately said, "Now, let me tell you about Hath- 
away." 

Q. Then, do I understand that he inferred I was a liar be- 
cause I didn't deny your statement? A. I don't knw what lie 
inferred. 

Q. Was that what called it out ? A. I don't know what 
called it out. 

Q. Did you speak to the professors in Princeton .about this 
at all ? A. No, sir, never ; I spoke a great deal about you, 
though ; I inquired a great deal about you. 

Q. Did } 7 ou find anything there, do you recollect, about my 
character? A. No, sir; all the testimony from professors and 
students was complimentary to you. 

Q. Have you found anything ever ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Anywliere? A. No. 

Q. Have you ever heard anything stated in connection with 
this ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you say when I called at your study with Mr. Crosby, 
and had related in your presence — first, I will ask another ques- 
tion, Did I say to you in coming in there that I had refused to 
give Mr. Crosby any information until I came into your pres- 
ence ? A. I think you did say words to that effect. 

Q. After I said this, did you say, " We will make this one 
of the specifications ?" A. No, sir. 

Q. You alluded a moment ago to this matter of retraction 
being a compromise ; was there any such word as " compro- 
mise " in it ? A. Oh, no, sir ; I alluded simply to the fact that 
I didn't know how that was obtained, and did not know the 
terms of it — never have known until now ; I never have read 
that paper until since the beginning of this trial, and still I 
was on my guard in regard to you, and still honestly in doubt 
whether Dr. Talmage wrongfully or truly accused you. 

Q. You have just said you have never heard anything to 
make you think he truly accused me ? A. I just said so. 

Q. Was there anything in this which led you to suppose it 
was a compromise of any character ? A. No ; I say I never 
read it before ; in my present apprehension there is no com- 
promise at all ; you must remember, sir, that I have been 
51 



402 



groping along towards this point in the dark between you ; I 
was pretty nearly as much between the upper and nether mill- 
stones as you were. 

Q. What is your opinion now? A. Oh 

Q. Never mind ; when Mr. Talmage was in your study with 
me, did he ask me, in your presence, to go and see Mr. Corwin? 
A. I think he did, sir. 

Q. Or was Mr. Corwin interested in this at all ? A. That I 
do not know. 
By Mr. Babcock : 

Q. In the cross-examination you stated you had an inter- 
view with Mr. Babcock, a member of the committee ; do you 
remember that he said that the object of that interview was to 
secure your approval and influence, as far as possible, in re- 
ferring this matter to a commission? A. Yes, sir; I w T as going 
to state that, but the cross-examiner stopped me. 

Q. To keep within the control of the Presbytery and out of 
this channel it is running in now ? A. Yes, sir ; but I re- 
member it was prior to the commencement of the trial. 

Q. Just before the report was made ? A. Yes, sir ; you wish 
simply to examine me on the question whether it was possi- 
ble to have this case tried by a commission ; my answer was, 
that neither law nor precedent would allow it, without the con- 
sent of the accused, but if the accused would consent it would 
meet with my hearty approval, but we could not try it without 
the consent of the accused ; there was no conversation between 
you, Mr. Babcock, and myself in regard to the subject-matter 
the committee were investigating. 

" I have read my testimony, as recorded in this folio, and 
find it correct." 

HENKY J. VAN DYKE. 

The Rev. Arthur Crosby was called, and being duly sworn, 
testified as follows : 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. How long have you been in the ministry? A. Nine 
years. 

Q. Your present charge your first charge? A. No, sir. 
Q. But until the time you began to call attention of Dr. 
Talmage to rumors which were afloat to his discredit as a minis- 



403 



ter of the Gospel, what had been your relations with him ? 
A. Very pleasant, sir ; I had met him frequently, or a number 
of times, since I had been in Brooklyn ; he had been here, to 
my church ; I had walked with him in the park, and rowed 
with him on the lake, and enjoyed his society exceedingly. 

Q. When did you first call Dr. Talmage's attention to these 
rumors ? A. Well, sir, I can hardly say ; I did not call his 
attention to these rumors. 

Q. What did you do ; what, did he call your attention to them ? 
A. It is a year ago to-day, sir, the ninth of April, 1878 

Q. I want to know when Mr. Crosby first called Dr. Tal- 
mage's attention to these rumors ; state, if you please, the 
circumstances of these interviews whicli you had with Dr. 
Talmage, relative to these rumors, if you remember — all that 
passed between you andhim? A. A year ago to-day I went to 
the Tabernacle to attend a meeting of the Presbytery, which 
was being held there. 

Q. Please state, if you please, wiien that interview occurred 
first? A. The ninth of April, if I remember it, 1878; as I 
have stated, I went to the Presbytery, and as I passed down 
the aisle to take my seat, Dr. Talmage came to me and said 
that he wished to have a few moments private conversation ; 
he passed to one side of the Tabernacle outside the circle of 
pews, and he told me that he had heard that I was going to 
bring up before the Presbytery the difficulty that he was having 
or had had in his church with Mr. Morgan ; about the Morgan 
affair, the organist, and his trustees ; I told him that that was 
not my purpose, but since he had spoken to me of the matter, 
1 would tell him what I did propose to do, which was to offer 
a resolution requesting the Presbytery to appoint a committee 
to confer with him in regard to the various rumors which were 
afloat to his discredit ; Dr. Talmage objected very strongly to 
my taking any such action ; I told him that I had thought the 
matter over very carefully and made up my mind that it was 
of the very greatest importance to the welfare of the church, 
and to the honor of the Presbytery of Brooklyn that the stories 
which were afloat about him should be investigated ; that they 
were not only to his discredit, but to the discredit of course of 
his brethren in the ministry, and that I believed that we 



1Q± 

ought not to sit still and allow a member of our body to be at- 
tacked in that way without taking any action at all in the 
matter ; Dr. Talmage stil insisted that it should not be brought 
forward : that it ought not to be brought forward ; he said he 
had spoken to his Session about it the night before, and they 
were indignant and angry at the thought that it should be 
brought up ; he said, moreover, that it was greatly exagger- 
ated ; that there was no such trouble as I supposed ; I told 
him it seemed to me a very serious matter, and he said that 
the newspapers had all taken his side ; I declared that that 
was a mistake, because I had only recently been reading a 
long article in the New York Times which accused him of false- 
hood in specific instances ; Dr. Talmage then said, " Well, you 
"must not pay any attention to what the Times says," — or 
words to that effect — " The Times is my enemy ; it has been pur- 
" suing me for years, and it all comes from a personal difficulty 
"I had with the editor;" I accepted that statement and we 
still talked about the matter; Dr. Talmage finally said to me ; 
" If you will consent to let the matter drop now, I will meet 
" you and any other gentleman whom you choose to bring 
" with you in the Presbytery ;" he named particularly Dr. 
Wells and Dr. Van Dyke ; he said that " if you will bring them 
" to my house or anywhere where we can meet, I will explain 
" that matter so that the most prejudiced person will be satis- 
" fied, and you can ask me any question you please ;" he had 
before this stated that he did not wish this to be brought be- 
fore the Presbytery, because it would make a disturbance and 
interfere with the work of grace that was going on in the 
Brooklyn Tabernacle ; I told him I did not think it would 
make a disturbance ; that the disturbance was already made 
and I believed an intelligent report from the Presbytery, vin- 
dicating him, if he could thus explain all these stories we had 
heard, would set the matter at rest more than anything else 
possibly could ; we had a long conversation, lasting, I should 
think, an hour or an hour and a half, and I still persisted in 
my purpose of bringing it before the Presbytery ; at last Dr. 
Talmage said to me, " Now, if you will let the matter drop, I 
" will have such a committee at my house ;" I said that after 
that I could not of course press the matter then, but neither 



405 



could I accept that proposition, and that I would think of his 
proposition and let him know in a few days my decision ; 
there the conversation ended ; we went down into the Presby- 
tery ; after that, on the following week — the following Monday, 
I think it was —the fifteenth of April, I wrote a letter to Dr. 
Talmage announcing my decision in regard to this matter. 
By Dr. Spea.r : 

Q. 1878 ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Before you passed on with it, did Dr. Talmage, in pro- 
testing against your bringing this matter before the Presby- 
tery, say anything about the feeling which the members of the 
Presbytery entertained toward him personally and in his 
church ? A. Yes, sir ; he made that one point of his objection ; 
that there w T as a great deal of jealousy and ill-feeling in 
the Presbytery against him, and I remember his using the ex- 
pression " there are many men in the Presbytery who would 
" be delighted to see the Tabernacle submerged." 

Q. I believe the counsel wrote a letter to Dr. Talmage, ask- 
ing him for the original letter ; let me ask you the question : 
in reply to the proposition of Dr. Talmage to submit the mat- 
ter to the judgment of a number of his brethren in the Presby- 
tery, did you make a reply to that proposition ? A. I said I 
wrote him on the fifteenth of April. 
Mr. McCullagh : 

I w r ould like to ask if that letter is here; if not, we would 
like to put in a copy of that letter in evidence. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. You handed it to me, did you ? A. Yes, sir; have you 
got the original ? 

Mr. Millard — Not that I am aware of ; no, we have not got 

it. 

Q. (Handing paper to witness.) Is that a copy of the letter? 
A. Yes, sir ; a copy, sir ; shall I read it ? 

Q. If you please ? 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Did you make a copy at the time ? A. Yes, sir (read- 
ing). 

(Marked Plaintiff's Exhibit B, April 9, 1879.) 



406 



April 15, 1878. 

Kev. Dr. Talmage : 

L>ear Sir, — In view of the persistent repetition of charges 
against your character for veracity, made both publicly and 
privately, and feeling that the good name of the Presbytery 
of Brooklyn is closely linked with yours, I had made up my 
mind last Tuesday, at our meedng, to move the appointment 
of a committe to inquire into the facts, with a view to your 
vindication. 

At your earnest personal solicitation, however, I did not 
carry out my purpose, though you did not succeed in changing 
my judgment as to the propriety of the course I proposed, for 
certainly, if it is true, as you asserted, that all these various 
stories injurious to your character can be readily and clearly 
explained, so as to satisfy the most prejudiced, then there 
could be no doubt that the result of such an investigation 
would be entirely in your favor ; and nothing would more 
completely route and shame your enemies and the enemies of 
truth than a resolution of our Presbytery, after a careful in- 
vestigation, expressing entire confidence in you, and stigma- 
tizing these stories as malicious slanders, especially since you 
hold that many of the members of the Presbytery are opposed 
to you and your work, and would rejoice to see you and the 
Tabernacle submerged. However, I consented to let the mat- 
ter drop. At the same time, and, indeed as an inducement for 
me to do so, you invited me to come to your house at any day 
we could agree upon, and to bring with me two or three mem- 
bers of the Presbytery, naming particularly Drs. Yan Dyke 
and Wells, with liberty to ask any questions we might wish in 
regard to any of these stories, and you promised to convince 
us very speedily of their falseness. I said I would think of 
your offer, and let you know in a few days whether I should 
accept it or not ; I have thought of it, and decided not to ac- 
cept it, for the simple reason that it would not at all accom- 
plish the end I had in view, wdrich is not the private satisfac- 
tion of my own mind, but your public vindication by your 
brethren of the Presbytery, and so the public vindication of 
the Presbytery itself ; an end I deem extremely desirable, as 
in the present state of affairs, our silence upon a subject so 



407 



nearly concerning us, and about which people are so freely 
talking, is itself scandalous. 

'•I sincerely wish that you could see your way clear to ask 
for such an inquiry as that which I proposed, and I fully be- 
lieve that the result would be for the glory of God and the 
confusion of his enemies. 

" Yours sincerely, A. C." 

Q. Subsequent to your sending this letter, did Dr. Talmage 
ever call upon you in reference to this subject ? A. He did. 

Q. State when and where ? A. I wrote that letter on the 
15th. 

Q. What year? A. Last year ; the 15th of April; and the 
next day, if I remember rightly, Dr. Talmage, I was informed, 
and Major Corwin called at my house once or twice ; I was not 
at home, and did not see them ; on the following day, however, 
if I remember rightly — the visits may have been on the same 
day, though I think it was on the following day — Dr. Talmage 
and Major Corwin' called again, and I saw them and had an 
interview with them ; as I came into the parlor Dr. Talmage 
rose, and very coldly and determinedly demanded of me the 
names of the people who had spoken against his char- 
acter privately ; I told him I did not know what names 
he meant; that nobody had been speaking against his 
character privately; at all events, that I had not said 
so ; he referred them to my letter, not producing it, but saying 
that my letter asserted that people had been talking about 
him privately ; I said that he had mistaken the meaning 
of the letter, and that I had no intention of conveying 
any such meaning at all, but that all I alluded to was what 
appeared in the public prints, and what had been talked about 
by people in private, as men meet upon a corner of a street 
and talk about what they have seen in the morning newspaper . 
he still insisted upon the names of those who had thus spoken ; 
I told him that I would not give him any names ; that there 
were no names to give ; he then asked for the names of those 
to whom I had repeated these slanders ; I told him I could 
not give him any names there, that I had talked about what 
appeared in the papers to a great many people, and could not 
give him any names; then, after considerable talk of that 



408 



kind, he rose and produced from his pocket two papers, and 
handed them to Major Corwin, and asked him if those papers 
were the same ; Major Corwin looked them over, and said they 
were exactly the same ; he then handed one of them to me, 
which I read, and he put the other in his pocket ; I read the 
one he handed to me, smiled, told him I would keep it, and 
put it in my pocket, and I think that is all that occurred, all 
that I can remember at this moment of that interview. 

Dr. Spear — When did this interview occur? A. It was 
either the sixteenth or seventeenth. 

Mr. McCullagh — This paper is dated the sixteenth, which 
he has alluded to. 

Q. Is that the paper Dr. Talmage handed you after having 
shown it to you ? (Handing paper to witness.) A. Yes, sir, 
that is the paper. 

Mr. McCullagh reads the paper as follows : 

Brooklyn, April 16th, 1878. 

Kev. Arthur Crosby : 

I hereby demand of you the names of such persons as, 
according to your letter of April fifteenth, have privately 
spoken against my veracity. I also demand of you the names 
of those to whom you have repeated the above slander or 
slanders. 

T. De WITT TALMAGE. 
(Marked Plaintiff's Exhibit C, April 9, 1879.) 
Pending the examination of Mr. Crosby, Presbytery ad- 
journed. 

J. MILTON GEEENE, 

Stated Clerk 

April 10th, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 10th, at 3 p. m. 

Rev. Arthur Crosby was recalled, and being duly sworn, tes- 
tified as follows : 

Examination resumed by Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. Have you had any conferences with Dr. Talmage since ? 
A. Yes, sir ; I have had a conference with him together witli 
the other members of the committee that was appointed to in- 
vestigate the nature and extent of the " common fame " about 
Dr. Talmage. 



409 



Mr. McCullagh here offers in evidence the stenographic re- 
port, or such portions of it as have a relevancy to this case, of 
the interview in question. 

Dr. Spear — Is it authenticated in any way ? 

The Witness — I will swear to it. 

Dr. Van Dyke moved that the whole of the document be 
read, and after some discussion the motion was carried, Dr. 
Van Dyke modifying it to the extent that if both sides concur, 
the irrelevant portions may be excluded. 

The Witness — If counsel will check me if I go beyond the 
bounds of what is relevant, I was asked in regard to this con- 
ference with Dr. Talmage ; I would state that before the steno- 
graphic report began we had some conversation. Among 
other things, I said to Dr. Talmage that of course, so far as I 
was concerned, I should feel no hesitation in testifying to an}*- 
thing that might be said at that conference in case the case 
should come to trial, and it was with that understanding, 
as distinctly as I can make it, that the conference was held. 

(The witness here reads what follows, being the interview 
of February 15, 1879.) 

(Marked Plaintiff's Exhibit A of this date, April 10, 1879.) 

Mr. Crosby — You understand, Mr. Talmage, we are ap- 
pointed, not to investigate you, but to investigate the nature 
and extent of this " common fame," and to report to the Pres- 
bytery whether it shall take any further action in the matter. 
We have, in pursuing that duty, traced out, as far as we could, 
whatever stories we have seen in the public prints and what- 
ever we have heard going round in conversation. And we 
have heard some very ugly stories in regard to your veracity. 
Do you care to make any explanation in regard to your con- 
nection with the Christian at Work ? 

Dr. Talmage— Yes, just as well as not. My record there is 
as clear as the sunlight, and to be confirmed by witnesses that 
I can get in ten minutes on this point — one witness at least. 

Mr. Crosby — It is simply the general charge which has ap- 
peared in print. You know the story that has appeared in 
print of dishonorable conduct. 

Dr. Talmage — What kind of dishonorable conduct have you 
heard of ? 
52 



410 



- Mr. Crosby— Those contained in statements published at 
the time. 

Dr. Talmage— What was published I did not read, I sup- 
pose, consecutively. I do not have any distinct remembrance 
of the charges made at the time. There was a great fluster 
of excitement, and a great many misstatements ; and my 
custom is never to read these things. I try to discharge my 
duty before God and the world, and I read less of myself than 
anybody else. If you can tell me what the charges were I 
can present the lacts. 

Mr. Crosby — It would be an endless matter for us to go into 
the different charges and specifications in that matter; and it 
is outside of our province. If you care to make a statement in 
regard to your connection, or rather in regard to your with- 
drawal from the editorship of that paper, just as the facts 
occurred, we will hear you. If you do not, we do not desire 
it. 

Dr. Talmage — I can state all the facts of my withdrawal. 
My position there became unpleasant, through seme colli- 
sion with the patrons of the paper. I resolved to leave in 
June, and I took my resignation to the Christian at Work 
office. I am not sure whether it was in June, but it was dur- 
ing the General Assembly ; perhaps it was in May ; it was dur- 
ing the session at my church. I wrote a valedictory, and took 
it over to the office and had it put in type. It was very short, 
saying, simply, " Good by." A prominent patron of the paper 
was in, and I said, " I will put that in type as an editorial." 
He implored me not to put it in, and to wait until the autumn, 
as the summer was always a dull time with newspapers, and 
he said I need not do anything during the summer of any ac- 
count. I had been working pretty hard upon the paper up to 
that time. Then he made a memorandum of a sort of engage- 
ment between us. The ending of that engagement was to be 
at the close of the mouth — to give a month's notice. I signed 
that. It was merely an informal document. It put down the 
salary to a mere nothing, because I was to do nothing. Then 
I said to him, " Instead of giving you a month's notice, I give 
you notice now T — four months' notice — that I shall go out in 
October inevitably." When October came I resolved to go 



411 

■-■ 

out ; at that time a gentleman came to me in regard to another 
paper, the Advance. I resolved to go into that paper, and 
my arrangement with the Advance was not completed until 
the evening of Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday — the day I 
forget — that the Christian at Work went to publication. It 
was the first half of the week, at all events. I went about six 
or seven o'clock into the office with a written valedictory, and 
I went to the press room to put it in. I had it put in. I knew 
that if it was not put in then, it would not go in at all, from 
the treatment I had received in the paper. I knew they wou d 
give me no opportunity of saying why I went, or even of going 
out gracefully. I did not in this valedictory say why I went 
out ; but I knew I would get no other opportunity from cir- 
cumstances round the case, and I took it into the office in the 
evening time. I was not in the office two minutes. I went 
home to Brooklyn. There was an advertisement put in for 
the Advance, which I had nothing to do with, and I neither 
put it in nor had anything to do with it, nor knew what it was 
until I saw it afterward, which fact I can prove by witnesses. 
As to staying in the press room all. night, as reported, my wife 
can testify that I was at home. There was nothing in the 
transaction that was tainted with any kind of dishonesty. In 
other words, it was a newspaper quarrel. I would like to 
answer any question in regard to that. 

Mr. Crosby — I don't think we can ask any questions without 
opening up the whole discussion, which is not our province. 
If it strikes any of the other members of the committee dif- 
ferently, they will say so. 

Dr. Talmage — Now, in regard to the advertisement, which I 
never saw until I saw it in the paper, that is, when the paper 
came to my house, I think I can show who took that to the 
office; I am not sure about that; there is the slightest possi- 
bility that it might have been sent with me, and that I might 
have without knowing what it was, taken it as a bundle or pack- 
age or something of the kind ; but as knowing anything about 
the advertisement or about the nature of it, I did not, although 
I knew there was going to be an advertisement in the shape of 
an exchange advertisement. I remember the gentlemen of the 
Advance saying, " We are willing that there shall be an ex- 



412 



change of advertisements, and I will exchange." The mem- 
bers of the Committee will understand what an exchange 
of advertisements is — that is, that the Christian at Work 
shall put in the advertisement of the Advance, and the Advance 
put in the advertisement of the Christian at Work, and no 
charge made. That I know nothing about, for I never had 
any charge of the advertising department, nor, indeed, of any, 
except the editorial and contributors' departments. 

Mr. Crosby— Do you care to say anything more about the 
Christian at Work business ? 

Dr. Talmage — I would just as lief as not, if there is anything 
you want to know. 

Mr. Ceosby — I do not know that there is. 

Dr. Talmage — I can show all these facts that I have stated 
by calling in a gentleman who would not detain you more 
than five or ten minutes, who will confirm the important 
points and present documentary evidence on them. 

Dr. McClelland — What is the next point ? 

Mr. Crosby — As I remember, it is in reference to the an- 
nouncement of a free church — that the Tabernacle Church was 
free, and that the seats were assigned without reference to the 
dollar question, that that announcement was frequently made 
of free pews, while you knew that the dollar was taken into 
account invariably, almost, and that the seats were assigned 
only as the people could pay more or less. 

Dr. Talmage — Well, that is a falsehood. I made the an- 
nouncement without reference to the dollar question, but 
always made the explanation that we expected every person 
to pay as much as he could ; every one in the church was ex- 
pected to pay something, and every one knew that we assigned 
the pews and then asked, " How much will you pay ? Will 
you pay by subscription or by Sabbath collection ?" always 
urging them to pay by subscription. 

Mr. Crosby— The point of the story as it came to us was, 
that the pew holders were not simply asked to subscribe, but 
that they were only allowed to take seats which were worth as 
much as they wished to subscribe. That is, the people who 
subscribed little had poor seats, and those who subscribed a 
great deal had good seats. 



418 



Dr. Talmage — That is a falsehood — that I knew of any such 
thing as that being practiced. No one would ever tell me 
such a thing in my church, if they practiced it, because I was 
most emphatic, out and out, always, on that subject ; and I can 
show there has not been a minute when we have been in 
either of the Tabernacles when I could not point out rows of 
people right along — some men who paid $50, and others who 
paid little or nothing, and some who paid $200, and others who 
paid $25, and so on. If there has been any other arrangement, 
it has not been with my connivance or knowledge. If any 
brother wants any more information on that subject I would 
like to know. 

Mr. Babcock — In what sense do you call it free ? 

Dr. Talmage — Every man selects for himself what he pays 
for the support of the gospel. 

Mr. Babcock — And every man was free to pay or not ? 

Dr. Talmage — Yes; pay or not. There have been cases all 
the way through where men have been there in the tw T o Taber- 
nacles for eight years, and have never paid a dollar on sub- 
scription — men who have some of the best seats, and never 
paid a dollar only as they put it on the contribution plate, as 
that class generally prefer to do. 

Mr. Crosby — The next point was in regard to these tele- 
grams. Do you care to say anything about that ? 

Dr. Talmage — I would just as lief as not. I sent them in 
good faith, and under the same circumstances would send them 
to-morrow or to-night. The circumstance of sending one 
telegram was that I felt that if our debt was to be raised, the 
Trustees or the church would have to pay $25,000 ; that is, I 
felt that if they did not start it with that amount it would be 
of no use in trying. So I telegraphed to John Talmage, ask- 
ing him if he would give $5,000 ; he telegraphed back that he 
could not afford it. Then I telegraphed to him, saying, " Will 
you give $5,000 if I make up the difference between what you 
can give and what you cannot ?" The whole design being to 
arouse the enthusiasm of the congregation, and the full expec- 
tation that he would pay the $5,000 anyhow ; and there was 
no bogus or humbug, as has been infamously charged against 
us, in the matter ; my wife is in the next room, and I would 



like you to Lear her statement in regard to the circumstances 
of the sending of the telegram, and what my motives were, 
and how I expressed myself, and for that reason I have asked 
her to come down ; she is in the next room, and I would like 
you to hear from her in a minute (it would be a very short 
story), what the circumstances were of my sending that tele- 
gram ; if you say so, I will call her in. 

Dr. McClelland — I think if Dr. Talmage desires us to hear 
her, we would, perhaps, better do so. 

Dr. Wells — I do not see any objections to that ; we are not 
taking testimony ; but if it is desired by Dr. Talmage to have 
the inside view in this matter, it is, perhaps, fair. 

Mr. Babcock — I do not see any necessity for it, although I 
do not make any objection. What we are considering here is 
common fame. We do not question your motive, or the fact 
that your intentions in the end were good ; but the question is 
as to your morality in the way of doing it. 

Dr. Talmage — The morality of it depends upon the motive. 
The point I wanted to present was whether that was a mere 
humbug engagement : " You put it clown, whether you pay it 
or not ?" 

Mr. Cbosby — No, I do not believe any one imagines that. 

Dr. McClelland — I understand there is a double motive. We 
will take that expression ; in the first place, the motive is to in- 
duce a man to put down his name for $5,000, in oicler thereby, 
from the fact that his name is subscribed, it will influence 
somebody else ; and then the object of all that, of the double 
working, is to meet the debt , that is to say, according to the 
theory, a deception upon the second individual, and the whole 
object is a good one — to get the debt clear. 

Dr. Talmage — The point I want to make by bringing my 
wife in is this — that I proposed to pay that out of my own 
pocket in case it was not otherwise paid. In other words, I 
wanted to put myself out of any meanness in the matter. I 
would just as soon be thought bad as be thought mean. I 
discussed the matter with her, and she said: " Can you af- 
ford to do that ?" I wanted her to tell what followed, aDcl 
how it became a matter of domestic economy with us whether 
we could make up this $5,000 or not. 



415 

Dr. Wells — I never doubted that you would make up that 
amount ; but I doubt the morality of the whole thing ; at least, 
I could not do it. 

Mr. Babcock — The point Dr. Talmage wants to make out, 
as I understand, is that if it had been some other person to- 
ward whom he had not such relations, he would not have tele- 
graphed in this way ; but his relations toward this gentleman 
were such that he himsetf would pay the amount if he did 
not. 

Dr. Talmage — That is it. He was my nephew, and I tele- 
graphed him, of course in complete confidence. It has been a 
rule of my life not to write or telegraph that which I would be 
ashamed to see the next clay in the papers ; but at the same 
time, when we write to a relative, we are not so much on our 
guard as if writing to strangers. Still, my wife does not desire 
to come in specialty, and that is the point I want to bring her 
in to show — if there was any bogus about it. 

Dr. Wells — I never thought so. 

Mr. Ceosby — You will excuse me from objecting to have Mrs. 
Talmage come in ; but it would be in the nature of admitting a 
witness, which is just the thing we wish to avoid. Dr. Tal- 
mage has told us the facts, and that is what we are here to 
consider — simply your statement, and not that of any one 
else ; and it is breaking right through our plan if we admit a 
witness. 

Dr. Talmage— Then I will tell my wife that she need not 
attend. 

Dr. Wells — And you may tell her that we accept your state- 
ment'as satisfactory. 

Dr. Talmage — You see the point I wanted to make. There 
is a way of saying to a person, " Put down $5,000, and no mat- 
ter whether you pay it or not, Ave will have the influence of it." 
I did not intend that. 

Dr. McClelland — Do you catch the point of the criticism 
on your action ? The point is that there was a deception on 
another party, in order to induce him to make a certain sub- 
scription because a fellow trustee had made one, which he 
would not have done if he had known that you paid part of it. 

Dr. Talmage — I did not intend any deception of that sort ; 



416 



I merely intended it for an excitement of the public interest 
on the subject in the church. I did not intend to deceive any- 
body ; if it had been of any interest to any one to know that I 
had given a part of that, I would have just as soon have them 
know it as not. 

Mr. Crosby — Would it not have lost much of its influence in 
that case ? 

Dr. Talmage — I think not. 

Mr. Crosby — Then why not disclose it ? 

Dr. Talmage — I first made up my mind to subscribe $5,000, 
and it made no difference whatever whether I gave it under 
some one else's wing or under my own name. 

Mr. Crosby — There is another matter. Do you remember, 
last spring, our talk in the Tabernacle, at the time of the 
meeting of the Presbytery, when I proposed to bring this mat- 
ter up, and some one informed you that I had that intention, 
and you came to me in the Tabernacle, and asked me to step 
to one side, and we had a conversation in regard to it ? 

Dr. Talmage — I remember having a conversation. 

Mr. Crosby — You remember that at that time you told me 
the reason why the New York Times newspaper was your 
enemy was because you had a personal difficulty with the edi- 
tor ? 

Dr. Talmage — No, I never told you so. 

Mr. Crosby —Did you not say something about a personal 
difficulty with the editor ? 

Dr. Talmage — Not with the editor ; I never knew any editor 
of the Times. 

Mr. Crosby — With some one connected with the Times? 

Dr. Talmage — What are you getting at? 

Mr. Crosby — Just that fact, whether it was not so. 

Dr. Talmage — I never knew the editor of the Times; I knew 
a managing editor at one time who was a very pleasant friend 
of mine ; I never knew any editor of the Times. 

Mr. Crosby — You certainly told me that you had a difficulty 
with the editor of the Times ; you may not have meant to use 
that word. 

Dr. Talmage — I guess not ; I never knew the editor. 

Mr. Crosby — You said that you had a difficulty with some 



417 



one connected with the Times; you might not have used the 
word " editor," though I am confident myself you did ; did you 
speak of difficulty with any one as accounting for that enmity ? 

Dr. Talmage — No one connected with the Times. I 
never had any difficulty with any one. Mr. Coleman is the 
only man that I knew there, and he is a very pleasant friend 
of mine. I gave you a reason for the hostility that I had seen 
in certain papers ; I do not remember which papers they 
were. There were two papers in New York for which there 
was a reason for the personalities that appeared ; but I did 
not tell to you that I had any collision with an editor of the 
Times. Have you put that down as one of the items here? 

Mr. Crosby — You may put it down as one of the items of 
which we have talked this afternoon. In regard to that, as I 
have brought it out, I will state that I would not hesitate at all 
to testify under oath that you told me that the reason why the 
Times was your enemy and was pursuing you was because 
you had a personal difficulty — I will not say with the edito^ 
but with some one connected with the Times. That was not 
your form of expression ; you mentioned either the word edi- 
tor (and I can almost swear that it was that word, for that was 
the impression I took away), or it was some one connected 
with the Times — that you accounted for the enmity of the 
Times to you for that reason. 

Dr. Talmage — And I would~swear positively that I did not 
tell you or give you any impression that I had any collision 
with any editor of the Times, for I never knew one. 

Mr. Crosby — Not any one connected with it ? 

Dr. Talmage — No one connected with the Times. 

Mr. Crosby — I know you did, for I went away from that in- 
terview with the impression on my mind, and I used it in your 
defence to people after that. When people said, " See what 
the Times says about Dr. Talmage," I said, " Oh, that is of no 
consequence what the Times says — there is a personal difficulty 
there." 

Dr. Talmage — I could not have given you that statement • 
I never knew the editor. 
Mr. Crosby — I will testify to it. 
Pr, Talmage— And I will testify to the opposite, 
53 



418 



Mr. Crosby — The next matter was about Mr. Hathaway. 
Dr. Talmage — What about him ? 

Mr. Crosby — There is a story that you told him falsehoods 
in connection with his former position, or told falsehoods of 
him ; I cannot give the particulars. Do you want to give any 
statement as to your troubles with him ? 

Dr. Talmage — I don't know that I had any trouble with Mr. 
Hathaway. 

Mr.' Crosby — I have no questions to ask concerning it. 

Dr. Talmage — Is that all ? I am ready to answer anything. 
I don't know what you refer to in regard to Mr. Hathaway, or 
I should speak of it. 

Mr. Crosby — Now, sir, if there is anything else that you 
know of as being in the minds of other people, I do not mean 
that you are conscious of yourself, but as being in the minds 
of other people, against your good name, if you choose to say 
anything about it, we are ready to hear. 

n Dr. Talmage — I don't know about it. I could say, if this 
were not a matter of permanent record, many things that 
would help you in this matter, that would have put before you 
the animus of men in regard to myself, but I suppose it would 
be impolitic to do so. The fact is, that this whole thing will 
be demonstrated to be just what it is— a persecution. I could 
go back to the root cause, but it would be rousing the hostile 
practice or violence of men, and perhaps nothing be accom- 
plished. I am a poor hand to fight brethren, either clerical 
or lay. It is not my forte ; I have no disposition for it. 
My ministry has been one of a great deal of conflict, but never 
with brethren. I have never put a straw in the way of any 
brother's usefulness in or out of the ministry. I have lived 
here ten years in Brooklyn, and I have never had the name of 
a neighboring minister come to my pulpit on a notice in regard 
to any movement in any church that I have not always takeu 
that opportunity of speaking well of him and well of his church. 
I have assaulted no one, but I have been nagged and nagged 
j^aud nagged. I have no anxiety about the result of this. I 
never felt so peaceful about anything. in the world as I have in 
the first place, about assaulting me in the law suit, and then in 
the Presbytery. I do not know how it will come out, and I 



419 



have do special anxiety. I put the thing in the Lord's hands. 
I know that my church is made up of a great many consecrat- 
ed men and women — men and women who devote their lives 
to the service of God. I know that my desire is for greater 
usefulness. I know also that my church is a soul saving church) 
and that the spirit of God is mightily present there now. Any 
one in my church last Sabbath morning or Sabbath night* 
friend or foe, would have admitted the presence of God in the 
solemnities, and in the tears, and in the risings up for prayers, 
and by all the ordinary modes in which we judge of the pres- 
ence of God in an assemblage. Now, the question is, how much 
this Presbytery can help me, or how much it can damage me ? 
I do not know. 

Mr. Crosby — I do not think that is the question at all. I 
think this whole matter will give you an opportunity to clear 
yourself of charges which have been hanging in the air, which 
have been published in the newspapers, and which have been 
scattered abroad, injuring your influence, if not in your own 
congregation, where they know you, still injuring your influ- 
ence as a power for good far and wide, throughout this country. 
I told the literal and exact truth when I stated in the Presby- 
tery, on making the motion, that I knew nothing of my own 
knowledge, which was the fact. Several people had approached 
me before that with different things, and I said : " I want to 
make this motion in perfect ignorance of the facts ; I don't 
know anything, and I will not," and I would not listen to any- 
thing they said. There have been publications in the New 
York Evening Post, the New York World, the Neiv York Times, 
the Brooklyn Union, and papers far and wide, and it was that 
that moved me to the action I have taken. 

Mr. Babcock— May I ask a question ? Did you state from 
your pulpit that you were to be arraigned before the Presby- 
tery for preaching heresy? 

Dr. Talmage — I said, " I believe I am to be arraigned;" my 
authority for that was the paper of the evening before, or two 
evenings before, which said I was to be arraigned for unsound- 
ness of doctrine, and that I consider to be heterodoxy. 

Mr. Babcock — That would be ; but I did not know of any 
such statement or any such intention. 



420 



Dr. Talmage — That phrase was used in the paper — that I 
was to be arraigned for unsoundness of doctrine, and I under- 
stood that to be heterodoxy. Now, in regard to common fame. 
I can show you three papers which came to-day, and I can 
show you, I think, fifteen papers which denounce the action of 
the Piesbytery in regard to this. The Louisville Courier says 
there never has been any common fame. And now here is one 
point that I wish to present : There has not been a decent 
paper in the United States that has ever charged me with dis- 
honesty until that charge was made in the Presbytery, or 
rather the remarks in regard to that charge. The papers have 
criticised my mode of doing things. 

Mr. Crosby — That is a mistake. The Evening Post is a re- 
spectable paper, and it has made that charge. 

Dr. Talmage — No paper that I have ever seen. 

Mr. Crosby — The Post, on three successive days, the 24th, 
25th and ^7th — Friday, Saturday and Monday. 

Dr. McClelland — A universal negative is hard to prove. 
You cannot be expected to see all the papers in the United 
States, and the fact is that there were newspapers in the hands 
of the brethren before the action of the Presbytery making 
these charges. We have nothing since. Of course you are 
perfectly honest in your statement, but you have not stated all 
the facts. And it is true that there are such papers, and quite 
a number of them. 

Dr. Talmage — I had not, until that time, ever seen it dis- 
cussed in any paper, and never heard of its being discussed. I 
know that I have been excoriated for my way of doing things, 
and have been criticised, and all that. Now I thought I would 
tell the brethren that I am going West the week after next. 
I must go unless you detain me. Of course this matter is more 
important to me than anything else can be. I have engage- 
ments in St. Louis, Chicago and Cincinnati, and they are nearly 
all in Presbyterian churches. I lecture there for their benefit. 
My engagements in St. Louis have been advertised, and I sup- 
pose my engagements there are with the public, and if there is 
any prospect of my being obliged to upset these engagements, 
I want to know it, so that I can telegraph and get rid of them. 

Dr. McClelland— How long would your engagements take? 



421 



Dr. Talmage-- I should go on Monday week, if all is well, 
and not get back till the Friday of the following week I will 
be gone one Sunday — ten days altogether. 

Mr. Babcock — That will be a matter in the province of the 
Presbytery, whatever their decision may be. 

Dr. Wells — They would doubtless consult the Doctor's con- 
venience. 

Mr. Crosby — I take it you would like to have this thing set- 
tled up before you go. 

Dr. Talmage — I would, because that would be protracting it 
for a great while. It is now nearly twelve days since it came 
up. 

Mr. Crosby — The fact is, that if the Presbytery decide to go 
into the case judicially, it could not be done before that time, 
for the simple reason that witnesses would have to be cited, 
and, of course, you appreciate the fact as well as we do, that if 
there be a trial at all, it must be deep and searching, and that 
this matter must be all explored, if touched at all. 

Dr. Talmage — I will just tell you, brethren, that as long as I 
live and carry on my style of ministry, I shall be assaulted, if 
it be to the end of the world ; and you will have a trial of me 
every month from now until the day of my death. The devil 
will be stirred up all the time , and if you intend to be my 
sponsors in these matters all the way through, you will ha've a 
very big job. 

Mr. Crosby —That is what we are bound to be. We cannot 
well forego our ordination oath. 

Dr. Talmage — The whole""matter is that I have stirred up 
the powers of darkness, and my record is clear before God, 
and it is clear before the world, as far as I am able to judge, 
except here and there a clerical brother ; but there are men 
who hate me, have always hated me, and hate the Brooklyn 
Tabernacle, and hate everything that comes in and goes out 
of it. 

Dr. McClelland — So far as my limited observation goes, 
there is not a man who has such a feeling toward you. I speak 
for the Presbytery, and I don't know of a man that would not 
be delighted in his heart to have all these things satisfactorily 
explained and your influence increased, and I believe myself 



422 



that if you can make this matter clear to us as it is to you, it 
will increase your usefulness and enlarge it. It is evident 
that you have not got before your mind the serious rumors 
that had been afloat before this thing came up. 

Dr. Talmage — I am not the least of an ecclesiastic ; I know 
nothing of parliamentary law, and I have no capacity to learn 
it. What may be the effect of this I do not know. Every- 
body, of course, discusses this committee, and the fact that a 
committee is out to investigate me is a matter of common 
rumor. Every one talks of it, and all the papers have editorials 
in regard to it. There is one thing I should like to know for 
my own private satisfaction, and that is, whether you have 
faith in me as a Christian man, or whether you have not? 

Mr. Ceosby — I don't think that is a fair question to ask at 
all ; while I have no doubt that there would be a response 
certainly from part of the committee that would be eminently 
satisfactory to you, yet I do not think it is a fair question to 
ask. 

Dr. Talmage — Then I will not ask it. Now, you are through 
with me, and I had better go. There~are two ways of meeting 
the assaults of my enemies ; that is, two methods have been 
before my mind. One is to assault them in the same kind, 
and the other is to take Christ's method of answering 
not again, and between these two methods I have halted. 
Sometimes my better nature is dominant, and sometimes my 
other nature. 

Mr. Babcock — On the supposition that these stories are 
afloat, and to an extent which you yourself suggest greater 
perhaps than we are aware of, affecting your reputation as a 
Christian man and your usefulness, and you are unable to 
reach them by an} r explanation that will satisfy the public, if 
you had your choice in the matter, what would you think — 
knowing that you are connected with the Presbytery, who have 
an interest in you, who are under an obligation, in one sense, 
to have a brotherly regard for you, and are affected by your 
reputation, are taunted at times with matters appertaining to 
your worship — how would you set that at rest ? 

Dr. Talmage — Yon cannot set it at rest — I mean the criti- 
cisms — never in this country, where newspapers are as they 
are. 



423 



Mr. Babcock: — You could set the past at rest. 

Dr. Talmage — Never can you set anything at rest ; it is the 
very nature of the country not to have any rest. 

Mr. Babcock — But you can state the truth ; this is a free 
conference, and I would like to know your own opinion ; you 
say that you are not anxious about the result. 

Dr. Talmage — I am not anxious in this sense — that I believe 
it will all be right, The Lord will overrule it in some way or 
another. Of course it is a great physical draft on me, this 
• perpetual bombardment. What have I been doing for this 
week ? I went into the court room after a very laborious Sun- 
day, and I was there Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and 
Thursday, and, with all my other work upon me, which I am 
doing now, and have had to do since. The draft is tremen- 
dous ; I do not have any Mondays, as ministers usually do. 

Mr. Ckosby — I believe there are few that do ; I never have 
met but four or five. 

Dr. Talmage — Now, this thing is going on for two weeks, 
and it makes a great draft. That law suit was very absorbing, 
and it was necessary to meet for consultation in regard to a 
great many things, and it is a question how long a man can 
keep his health under such circumstances as I am now in and 
shall be until these things are off my mind. It is not any crit- 
icism that bothers or interrupts or hinders. The only thing 
that hinders me is the Brooklyn Presbytery ; that I have got 
in my way; there is a dignified body, made up of eminent 
Presbyterians, and I have got to stop and be investigated. 
The investigation is not begun, yet my work practically stands. 
The best thing that the Brooklyn Presbytery can do for me is 
to come on next Monday and say, if you can say it conscien- 
tiously, that I had better go on with my work. 

Mr. Crosby — Now I see how you feel on that on the hypo- 
thesis — which is, of course, the only one you can admit at all, 
even to yourself — that these rumors are entirely* unfounded; 
but we cannot assume to do that without begging the whole 
question which we are appointed to consider. And taking 
the other hypothesis yourself, putting another man in view T , 
and taking the hypothesis that he was guilty of repeated step- 
pings aside from the right and straight path, hag not the Pres- 
bytery a duty in regard to that ? 



424 



Dr. Talmage — Yes, if he is guilty. 

Mr. Crosby — How are they going to find out ? I tell you, 
Dr. Talmage, that you are all wrong when you talk of perse- 
cution. 

Dr. "Wells — It would be a relief to us if we could dismiss 
it and say there is nothing in it. 

Dr. McClelland — It keeps us all sleepless as well as you. 

Dr. Wells — Yes ; one of my elders asked me what was the 
matter, and I told him that the trouble was I could not sleep. 
I think, Dr. Talmage, your reputation is as dear to us as our . 
own reputation is. I say that with all my heart. 

Mr. Crosby — What did you say in committee, Brother Bab- 
cock ? You know that you were one of the ten who voted 
against the resolution. 

Mr. Babcock — I said — and I am willing to say it before the 
public as far as I am, concerned — that I had not met any per- 
sonal ill feeling against Dr. Talmage. I have not met any one 
in the Presbytery who was anxious to destroy his influence. 
On the contrary, there is a great sense of responsibility in the 
feeling that through you, whether unconsciously or not, the 
cause of Christ was being wounded. That is the feeling, and 
that the Presbytery to a certain extent is responsible for it. 
Now, it is in your power, in a measure, to relieve the Presby- 
tery of this. 

Dr. Talmage — What do you want me to do ? Give me some 
counsel. I am one of the best men to take counsel. 

Mr. BABCOck — I should think it was a very proper thing for 
brethren in the Presbytery to confer with each other on such 
a point. The very peculiarity which you refer to is your 
preaching, and which you say as long as you live will be the 
cause of trouble. This is one of the very things which will be 
a proper matter of conference between you and your brethren. 
All the wisdom is not in any one head. 

Mr. Crosby — Do you remember the story of Oliver Crom- 
well's coming into the General Assembly of the Scotch Pres- 
byterian Church, and marching up to where they are in warm 
discussion, he said, " My dearly beloved brethren, allow me to 
say to you, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that it is 
just possible you may be mistaken ?" I think we all want to 
have that said to us occasionally, 



425 



Mr. Babcock — While I am pained at the whole condition of 
things, I must say I am equally pained to find the impression 
on the part of Dr. Talmage and the members of his church 
that the Presbytery here hate him and hate them, and wish to 
have their influence crippled or destroyed. It is a false im- 
pression. 

Dr. Wells — It is horrible. So far as I know it is precisely 
the opposite. I think the brethren generally know that Dr. 
Talmage has a combination of qualities which make him emi- 
nently a power for good, and that they greatly regret anything 
that should hinder in the least his utmost usefulness. 

Dr. Talmage — Dr. Wells, what do you suppose ? How — ■ 
starting on this theory that ministerial association is to be 
helpful — how is a judicial investigation to help me in my work ? 
Suppose this committee should suggest an investigation — 
which I hope they will not — you ask what my opinion in re- 
gard to it is, and I hope they will not — not because there is 
anything I want to hide, because I have explained all now — 
but how can a judicial investigation help me in my Christian 
work of saving souls? 

Dr. Wells— I cannot answer that, because it may be the 
other way. I say that the Presbytery is not responsible for 
that. But there is a responsibility in regard to any charges 
that may present themselves to us as a Presbytery. 

Dr. McClelland — Assuming a thorough vindication on your 
part, why, it puts you right not only with the people that you 
are now right with — strengthens their respect for you, seeing 
that you have passed successfully through the ordeal — but 
will put you .right in the mind of every true Presbyterian 
minister. They cannot criticise you after the Presbytery puts 
you right. Their criticism is done in regard to the past. So 
that instead of diminishing your influence, in the supposition 
of your having come out of it all right, I think it will in- 
crease it. 

Mr. Babcock— You are not aware, perhaps, that all these 
clerical brethren are constantly in the receipt of communica- 
tions, sometimes verbal and sometimes written, calling atten- 
tion to these rumors adrift against your good name, and ask- 
54 



426 



ing why this matter is not taken up, holding the Presbytery re- 
sponsible for their inaction. 

Dr. McClelland— These are facts. 

Dr. Talmage — I have no doubt that somehow I have excited 
these brethren's hostility. The whole world is full of hostility. 
I got a letter overhauling Brother Crosby — I have such a letter 
now — telling me where I can go and find facts which would r,ot 
help him in this matter at all I have a letter of that kind— 
not in my pocket, but in the pocket of one of my friends. Is 
rt Christian to come before the Presbytery and make an assault 
in public ? 

Mr. Crosby— Whether Christian or not, I would be very 
much obliged to you if you would produce it — anything you 
know against me. 

Dr. Talmage — I do not know anything against you. But can 
I go and stir up a muss ? 

Mr. Crosby — Any muss you can stir up ; I am perfectly 
willing. 

Dr. Talmage — It is not my wish to stir it up. 

Mr. Crosby — I stand ready to meet any statement. 

Dr. Talmage — The last thing I would do is to put a straw in 
the way of another man's usefulness. 

Dr. Wells — You do not understand us doing that to you ? 

Dr. Talmage — No, Dr. Wells ; there is no man or Christian 
minister I have more confidence in than in you. I have said 
the same thing in regard to Dr.McClelland. Mr. Babcock I have 
never met until to-day, so I do not know him. But I have 
said in my Session, the other night, " Whatever Dr. Wells does 
and what Dr. McClelland does, will be conscientious and right, 
and I believe (not knowing any other of the members of the 
committee except Brother Crosby), that that committee, what- 
ever may be the minority opinion, I believe the majority of that 
committee will vindicate me in the one fact, that if they thought 
I made a mistake in the telegram, at all events they do not think 
I was guilty of an immoral or mean thing, or a bad thing ; and 
I have felt, until I heard the opening of this interview by Dr. 
Crosby, that this committee would go into the meeting on 
Monday afternoon and say practically this: "Dr. Talmage 
has been criticised and overhauled and all that, and whatever 



427 



we may think about the methods of raising money in these 
times (for it was Kimball's and Ives' method, and employed in 
hundreds of churches — not any novelty of mine, whatever) — 
whatever we may think about that, we feel that he is not 
bad in motive." And I suppose, and I am not convinced that 
that is not so yet, but that that will be the result on Monday 
— that would vindicate me. It would not silence the world. 
There will always be those who will criticise me, for the sim- 
ple reason that my style of ministry is a little different from 
others. I preach as well as I know how. If I do not preach 
well it is not that I lack the desire, it is because I do not 
know how. 

Mr. Crosby — You have intimated very clearly you do believe 
there is a personal hostility on my part. 
Dr. Talmage — I have not said that. 

Mr. Crosby — No, but you except Dr. Wells and Dr. McClel- 
land, and say you do not know Mr. Babcock, which leads to 
but one conclusion. All I want to ask is, whether I have done 
anything or said anything that would lead you to suppose I 
had any personal hostility to you ? 

Dr. Talmage — Yes, I feel so. I will tell you what it is ; it 
ts your intensity in this thing. 

Mr. Crosby — Can not that come from feeling a righteous in- 
dignation ? Is it not possible ? Can you believe in that in a 
man's soul ? Have you not the charity to believe it ? 

Dr. Talmage — A righteous indignation against what ? 
Against me ? 

Mr. Crosby — No ; against these stories, this outrage upon 
the good name of the Brooklyn Presbytery, that you do not 
believe exists, but that so many say should be investigated, and 
that you consider any one who believes that is your personal 
enemy. 

Dr. Talmage — I will not take the responsibility of judging 
any man's heart. 

Mr. Crosby — But you do constantly give this motive ; and I 
stand here to-day and say that I have no personal hostility to 
you, and never had. You have never injured me, or done 
anything that could possibly arouse it. From the time I came 
here you treated me with a cordiality which a boy stranger 



428 



had no right to expect. You invited me to go walk with you, 
and we had a glorious afternoon, of which I have often spoken ; 
and my action upon this subject last spring, and now again, 
has arisen solely from my feeling that it was time that 
this Presbytery should assume the responsibility which rests 
upon it. 

Dr. McClelland — I certainly believe that statement fully. I 
know that Brother Crosby has been burdened about this thing 
in that way. Whether you, Dr. Talmage, believe it reasonable 
or not, I believe it is sincere. 

Dr. Wells — I cannot conceive anything else. I do not see 
why there should be. 

Mr. Crosby said that before separating, he wished to notify 
Dr. Talmage that he called for the production of the letter 
he had intimated he had containing imputations against him- 

Dr. Talmage — I did not say it contained any imputations. 
I threw that out as an illustration. 

Mr. Crosby — But it is an illustration in which I am in- 
terested, and I shall ask in public for anything there is of 
that kind. 

Dr. Talmage — You can ask as you please. I think it is 
time for me now to go. 
Cross-examined by Mr. Millard : 

Q. Begin where you left off in that interview; you expressed 
a great desire for that letter? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I will state to you — though I have not the letter —that 
it is stated that you had in the college a difficulty ; you made 
an assault upon your theological professors ; did you make an 
assault in any way upon your theological professors ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Did you have any difficulty with them whatever ? A. I 
did not say that ; I never made an assault upon them. 

Q. You had a difficulty with them? A. Not on my part 
at all. 

Q. What is it ? A. I will try to tell that story as fully as I 
can ; I went to the seminary at New Brunswick ; after I 
graduated from college I remained there for six weeks ; I 
went into the middle class of lectures, having taken private 
lessons in Greek, Hebrew, and so on, during my senior year in 



429 



college, and in attending the classes there I was by no means 
satisfied with the instruction that was imparted by those pro- 
fessor© ; it seems to me that they were way, way behind the 
age, both in the manner and matter of their instruction ; for 
example, Dr. Bergh, who was a dear, good old gentleman, who 
has gone to his rest now, would come into the class-room — he 
was a Professor of Church History — 
By Dr. Van Dyke : 

Q. I would like to ask the witness whether he was dismissed 
from the seminary ? A. By no means ; just the reverse. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. You stated that you called yourself a boy in that inter- 
view ; how old are you ? A. I said I was a boy when I came 
here ; I am thirty-two years old to-day ; it is my birthday. 

Q. In that interview you have just been reading, Dr. Tal- 
mage said to you when I think you were upon the inquiry 
upon the telegram — perhaps also in regard to the charge 
about the Christian at Work — he said in both cases that he 
had witnesses right at hand that you could hear within ten 
minutes, who would put that matter all right ; as I recollect 
the interview the other members of the committee interposed 
no objection, but you objected ; now, will you tell us why ? 
A. That is not exactly the statement ; I made an objection, 
and then asked the other members of the committee whether 
they concurred with me, and they agreed by silence. 

Q. I understood you to say at first that they acquiesced ? 
A. No, that was in regard to Mrs. Talmage. 

Q. They all acquiesced in regard to Mrs. Talmage except 
yourself? A. Yes, sir ; we all agreed that we would accept 
Dr. Talm age's statement as to the one point she was to testify 
to. 

Q. Dr. Wells said, " Your statement is entirely satisfactory;" 
is that all he mentioned ? A. That is all ; he said there is 
one point I wash to have Mrs. Talmage testify to, and then he 
mentioned it, and we accepted his statement of that point as 
satisfactory. 

Q. Suppose they all concurred with you in refusing to hear 
this witness, will you tell us what your reason was ? A. Well, 
sir, we had talked it over in the committee — I do not know as 
it is worth while to go into that. 



430 



Q. Were you not appointed a committee to inquire into the 
nature of these rumors ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now if there were witnesses ready to show you that they 
were unfounded rumors, were you not bound to see them ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. When you might have been satisfied in ten minutes that 
no investigation was necessary, you were bound to shut your 
ears against it ? A. Not at all ; I do not agree to your state- 
ment of it. 

Q. I understand you to say if there were witnesses there 
who would have shown you in ten minutes that no investiga- 
tion was necessary, you were not bound to see them ? A. I 
did not say so. 

Q. Did not Dr. Talmage say that he could produce a wit- 
ness that would settle it in ten minutes to your satisfaction ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You refused to hear them ? A. We did. 

Q. How do you reconcile that with your appointment to 
the inquiry into those rumors ? A. I do not see exactly why 
I should go into that explanation and the discussion which the 
committee had beforehand ; we made up our minds that that 
was the proper course. 

Q. To only hear witnesses against him and none for him ? 
A. I did not say that; but in regard to that special case, the 
committee is abundantly able to vindicate itself in that trans- 
action, though I am not bound to do it under oath. 

Q. When Dr. Talmage asked you the plain question, "I 
want to know, brethren, whether you have confidence in me as 
a Christian minister," I understood you to be the one that in- 
terposed at once and said that was not a fair way of asking ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Why was it not ? A. Because I did not consider it so. 

Q. Not a fair way to ask whether they had confidence in 
him as a Christian minister ? A. Not in consideration of the 
purpose for which we were appointed. 

Q. What was the disguise ? A. I do not know that there 
was anything to disguise about it ; I did not think it was 
proper to ask, and therefore I answered as I did. 

Q. I understood you to state that Dr. Talmage, when he 



431 

called upon you in one of those early interviews, proposed to 
you to leave it out to some clergymen ? A. Dr. Talmage, at 
the Tabernacle, the first interview I had with him, said to me 
as the final matter in our conference, " Now if you will not 
bring this matter up, I shall be very glad to meet you and any 
gentleman you may choose to bring, members of the Presby- 
tery, at any time we may agree upon, if you will give me any 
notice," and he mentioned particularly Dr. Wells and Dr. Yan 
Dyke, and he said if you will come I will answer any questions 
you may ask, and explain the whole matter to you. 

Q. Wasn't that a good proposition? A. I did not consider 
it so, as my letter shows ; I gave the reason in my letter why 
it was not well to accept that proposition under the circum- 
stances. 

Q. You thought a judicial investigation would be a better 
way than that private way ? A. I didn't say so. 

Q. I do not know what you said in your letter. A. I have 
not said so at all. 

Q. You rejected that proposition of his meeting clergymen 
in private and talking the matter over in that way? A. I did, 
sir. 

Q. You have stated that at that early period you felt stirred 
up for the honor of this Presbytery to take some proceedings ; 
did you hear other ministers of this Presbytery express the 
same feeling ? A. I think I have ; yes, sir. 

Q. Who ? A. Well I don't know that I can name them ; I 
have heard a good many express regret and chagrin just as 
was expressed by a member of the committee to Dr. Talmage 
in our conference. 

Q. What I asked you was did you hear any other member 
of the Presbytery express a feeling that there was something 
that ought to be judicially investigated for the honor of the 
Presbytery ? A. That I don't remember at all. 

Q. You were the only one, so far as you know, that had 
that feeliug ? A. I did not say that ; I say I do not re- 
member any particular ones that did ; I think there were, so 
far as I remember. 

Q. That there ought to be a judicial investigation? A. 
Oh, I do not say that, but that something ought to be done 
about the matter. 



432 



Q. To vindicate the Presbytery? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you do not remember the names ? A. No, sir. 

Q. And you the youngest member of the Presbytery ? A. 
I do not know about that. 

Q. Dr. Talmage, when you called upon him, I understood, 
said a work of grace was going on in his church, and that any 
such investigation would interfere with it ? A. I think he did. 

Q. You thought it would not interfere with it ? A. I sup- 
pose I did. 

Q. I understand that you stated that you thought it would 
help it ? A. I think I told him I did not think it would. 

Q. You think such a trial as this is a means of grace ? A. 
I will not say such a trial as this ; I have not had the control 
of this trial. 

Q. You have had your share of it ? A. Partly ; it would 
have been a very different trial if I had had control. 

Q. Let me ask you in regard to those charges that you felt 
called to bring before the Presbytery on the ground of " com- 
mon fame ;" as a matter of fact, had they not at that time 
been dying away rather than been increasing ? A. I only 
brought one charge — I did not bring any charge ; the commit- 
tee appointed by the Presbytery brought the charge, and it 
was by no means dying out, but increasing. 

Q. In your complaint, was there not more than one when 
you originally brought the matter before the Presbytery? 
A. Do you mean the resolution I produced in the first place ? 

Q. Yes, sir ? A. There were two matters referred to. 

Q. What were they ? A. This matter we are trying now in 
general, and the methods of preaching. 

Q. Falsehood and the methods of preaching? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, in regard to these rumors of falsehoods, had they 
not been dying away at that time, and were they not less in 
the public mind than they had been? A. So far as my judg- 
ment and observation goes, by no means. 

Q. You took the ground, I think, that the reason they took 
these out of the rule of limitation for two years was because 
some of them had become flagrant since ? A. That the whole 
matter had become flagrant. 

Q. What do you mean by that ? A. I mean increased in 
probability and flagrant in our minds ; in my mind for one. 



433 



Q. You mean flagrant in public talk? A. Not in specific 
matters, particularly. 

Q. But in your own mind had come to a state of greater fla- 
grancy ? A. Oh, no. 

Q. One of those topics was his methods of preaching, and 
you felt called upon 

Dr. Van Dyke— That is not before us. 

Mr. Millard — It is only as he has gone into his bearings 
with this whole case to show his feeling toward Dr. Talmage ? 

A. I do not know that I have gone back at all. 

Q* You felt called upon to try and tell Dr. Talmage how to 
preach? A. Oh, no ; if I had thought that I could do that, I 
should not have brought it before the Presbytery. 

Q. Wasn't the object of that inquiry to try to improve his 
preaching ? A. I don't know, sir. 

Q. We come then to the direct matter that you were called 
to testify to ; you say in the charge that Dr. Talmage knew he 
would be charged with falsehood and deceit; now have you 
any knowledge that he did know ? A. I think he knew. 

Q. How ? A. I stated in my opening the grounds ; I had 
that conference with him last spring, about ten months before 
this matter came up, and he made the announcement from his 
pulpit ; I understood that another brother, Mr. Greene, had 
also talked to him about the same subject ; the only reference 
I could find in the newspaper to the matter at all was in the 
Eagle, on one or two nights before, to which Dr. Talmage 
apparently referred in his conference with us, and in the article 
there was but the slightest incidental allusion of unsoundness 
of doctrine, and all the rest of it was taken up in regard to 
these other matters, and that was followed the next night by 
a long editorial in the Eagle, in which unsoundness of doctrine 
was not referred to, but want of veracity and sensationalism in 
preaching were dwelt upon ; those were the charges that were 
floating in the air and through the press, and it seemed to me 
that manifestly the declaration from the pulpit on February 
2d, I think it was, was intended to throw off the public mind 
from the track. 

Q. You think that because there were different allusions in 
all the papers that he must have seen them ? A. No, 
55 



434 



■ Q. Don't you know Brother Crosby, that he is a far busier 
man than the most of us ? A. I don't know as he is. 

Q. A far busier man for instance, than a man that has only 
a handful of a congregation ? A. Not necessarily at all. 

Q. Has he the same amount of time to know all that is in 
the papers, and to read all the papers that some [of us that 
have far less work to do ? A. You speak for yourself ; I think 
that a great many men are quite as busy as Dr. Talmage. 

Q. There was in one of the papers then an allusion to un- 
soundness of doctrine ? A. I believe there was. 

Q. And you inferred that he had seen the other papers that 
alluded to the subject ? A. No ; I did not infer that. 

Q. Ycu say that he must have known that he was going to 
be charged with falsehood ; now we come back to that; how 
could he have known that ? A. I have given my reasons, I 
don't think it is necessary to repeat them. 

Q. I think it is on cross-examination ? A. I have just given 
them to you. 

Q. How could he have known ? A. I think he could. 

Q. How ? A. I told you just a moment ago. 

Q. I didn't hear you ; did it answer the question ? A. It 
seems so to me. 

Q. You think that it answered the question as to how he 
would know what charges would be brought against him be- 
fore the Presbytery ? A.I answered it partially. 

Q. Did you think the papers would have a right to speak 
for the Presbytery ? A. He seemed to think so. 

Q. I ask you ? A. I do not think so, by any means. 

Q. How could he learn from the papers what the charges 
would be ? A. I do not say he could. 

Q. How could he learn in any other way ? A. He learned 
from his conference with two members of the Presbytery that 
that was the subject that was in the minds of the Presbytery ? 

Q. Did you assume in that conference to speak for the Pres- 
bytery ? A. Oh, no, sir. 

Q. Could he know because you had thought in your mind 
what the Presbytery would do ? A. No, I do not know that 
he could for that simple reason alone. 

Q. How could he ? A. By all the circumstances. 



435 



Q. Can you mention any? A. Yes, sir, but I do not pro- 
pose to ; I do not care to argue the question here. 

Q. Tou cannot give any reason then that Dr. Talmage had 
for showing what the Presbytery would do except that you and 
Mr. Greene told him what was in your mind? A. Now, sir, I 
do not propose to sum up the case at this point. 

Q. But no, if you are on the witness stand you ought to be 
willing to answer a fair question ? A. It is not a fair question. 

Q. I ask you to state in your own way if there is any other 
information in your mind that Dr. Talmage could have cause 
to know what the Presbytery would do except what Mr. 
Greene and you had in your minds ? A. I have given the 
statement as part of what led me, with the rest of the Com- 
mittee, to incorporate that specification in our report. 

Q. Did you know what the Presbytery would do ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. If you could not know how could Dr. Talmage ? A. I 
never said he could. 

Q. You said he must have known ? A. No, I think if you 
will read it over again you will find you are not stating it cor- 
rectly. 

Q. You could prophecy what the action of your brethren 
would be when it came up ? A. Not at all ; I put it hypotheti- 
cally. 

Q. You say if this is the thing that was done, that is what 
they will do ? A. No, I did not say that. 

Q. Did you know, if arraigned at all, that that would be 
the arraignment — if he knew that he w 7 as to be arraigned ? 
A. My dear Mr. Millard, I do not propose to haggle over that 
at all. 

Q. I am asking a question which I am satisfied will com- 
mend itself to the mind of this court ; I want to know if there 
was anything in that charge, how could he know that Dr. Tal- 
mage knew what he was going to be arraigned for ? A. I have 
given my reasons fully for that statement and I don't propose 
to give any more ; I have given it as fully as I propose to at 
this point. 

Q. I will not press you if you say you have no other reason ? 
A. I do not say I have no other reason ; I say it is all that I 



436 



will give at this point ; I am not bound to testify to my 
reasons at all. 

Q. Facts are what I want ? A. Certainly. 

Q. That is what I want — any facts tending to show he 
knew ? A. I have given facts ; I do not propose to deduce 
arguments from those facts. 

Q. Those facts are that that was the intention of yourself 
and Brother Greene ? A. Oh, no. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Mr. Millard has traversed some points that I had in my 
own mind ; I will try to skip them all ; perhaps I shall recall 
some of them ; I think you said your age was thirty-two ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Please to tell me how long you have been in the minis- 
try ? A. Nine years. 

Q. How long have you been in Brooklyn ? A. Five years 
and a half, I think. 

Q. Pastor of this church ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where were you settled before ? A. At Kent, Connecti- 
cut. 

Q. What denomination ? A. Congregational. 

Q. Were you settled anywhere else? A. I was pastor of a 
mission church fcr a few years after I left the seminary in 
New York. 

Q. To what denomination did you first belong for admis- 
sion into the ministry ? A. To the Dutch Beformed. 
Q. Were you accepted ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And became a member of the Classis ? A. I think I 
took a letter — I applied for admission to the Classis because 
of my father — who was a member of the Dutch Beformed 
Church, in Poughkeepsie— being there, and I told him that 
was my reason when I went, mainly ; then I think I was im- 
mediately transferred to the Presbytery of New York. 

Q. You were actually admitted as a member of the Classis ? 
A. I suppose so. 

Q. Do you know whether you really were or not ? A. No, 
sir ; I was licensed by the Classis to preach and I think I 
must, of course, have become a member of it then. 

Q. Were you by dismission transferred from that to the 
Presbytery of New York? A. That is my impression. 



437 



Q. I want your memory ? A. That is my memory. 

Q. Is it a distinct fact in your mind ? A. No, sir ; I only 
judge inferentially that that must have been the case. 

Q. How did you become a member of the Presbytery in 
New York? A. I presume in that way ; I don't recall the 
circumstances. 

Q. Where were you ordained ? A. I think I was ordained 
— I am not quite sure whether I was ordained in New York as 
a pastor of a mission church there, or whether I was ordained 
when I was installed at Kent ; I was never installed in New 
York, because I was pastor of a mission church ; I think I was 
ordained, however, by the Presbytery of New York. 

Q. You applied to the Dutch Classis, did you, at first, for 
admission into that body as a candidate for the ministry ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And was admitted ? A. I think so ; yes, sir. 

Q. And applied for a letter of dismission from that body 
transferring you where ? A. To the Presbytery of New York. 

Q. And was ordained by that Presbytery then ? A. I think 
so. 

Q. Those are the facts, to your best recollection, are they ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, Mr. Crosby, with whom, if anybody, did you con- 
sult before introducing your preamble and resolution to the 
Presbytery, if anybody? A. I consulted with several per- 
sons, some members of this Presbytery and some — one or two, 
I think — were not members of this Presbytery. 

Q. Will you please to name them ? A. No, sir ; I won't. 

Q. You declined to name them ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you, within two months, been in Jersey City on 
any subject, or for any purpose ? A. I think not, sir. 

Q. Are you positive upon that subject ? A. Yes, sir ; I 
think I am. 

Q. Has anybody, within this period, been there in reference 
to Dr. Talmage by your procurement ? A. No, sir ; not that I 
know of. 

Q. Nobody by your knowledge? A. No, sir; not to my 
present recollection ; to the best of my knowledge and belief, 
there has been no one there. 



438 



Q. Is there any doubt in your mind ? A. Not at all ; there 
is no doubt in my mind, not the slightest. 

Q. Who drafted the original draft of the charge and specifi- 
cations reported to the Presbytery? A. That comes under 
the other question, but I don't hesitate saying that I did it 
in full. 

Q. Was there any permanent rumor at the time charging 
against Dr. Talmage the matter set forth in the report and 
specification ? A. Yes, sir ; well, what do you mean by public 
rumor, sir? 

Q. I mean public rumor of the Book of Discipline, such as 
it defines, charging against Dr. Talmage the matter set forth 
in the report and specification, in which he falsely accused I. 
W. Hathaway of dishonest practices and afterward denied that 
he had done so ? A. 1 don't think there was. 

Q. There was no public rumor to that effect ? A. I think 
not. 

Q. Did you then know, when that specification was drafted 
by you, that the whole matter had been amicably settled be- 
tween the parties for more than two years ? A. I don't re- 
member whether I knew that then or not ; I may have 
known it. 

Q. You had a conversation with Mr. Hathaway? A. Oh, 
yes, sir. 

Q. Didn't he state the fact to you that he had received that 
resolution of the Session, and that it was settled ? A. I 
really don't remember, sir, whether I got that matter before 
or after. 

Q. About that time, you knew that it had been settled in 
that way ? A. I don't know, sir, whether I knew it then or not. 

Q. Did you know it before the specification was drafted? 
A. I really don't know. 

Q. Did you, after it was drafted and before it was pre- 
sented to the Presbytery? A. I really don't know; you 
see, I have been going over this thing for so many weeks that 
I cannot place the exact time when I knew it ; I may have 
known it before the specification was drafted. 

Q. Was there any public rumor charging the matter set 
forth in the sixth specification about the Tabernacle organist, 



439 



at the time you drafted it and put it into the plan? A. I 
think so ; yes, sir. 

Q. Where was that rumor, and where did you find it? A. I 
cannot remember now. 

Q. Do you recollect what it is ? A. About the organist ? 
yes, sir ; there had been a rumor, and how extensive it was 
at that time I cannot tell. 

Q. Did you see it in the newspapers, did you, at that time ? 
A. I don't remember whether I did or not ; I heard it talked 
about. 

Q. Who talked about it ? A. I don't remember ; it was a 
general subject. 

Q. How general ? A. So general that my attention was 
directed to it. 

Q. By whom ? A. I don't remember. 

Q. Can you name any one ? A. Who attracted my atten- 
tion to it ? 

Q. Yes. A. No, sir ; I don't think I can. 

Q. Then, it was a general rumor that was generally talked 
of, and you cannot name any person or paper that talked 
about it ? A. No, sir ; I don't remember if I can at this mo- 
ment. 

Q. Was there any public rumor charging against Dr. Tal- 
mage the matter set forth in the seventh specification, at the 
time this was drafted ? A. Well, sir, I don't know whether 
there was, according to the definition of public rumor in our 
book. 

Q. You had not heard of any rumor that specified a partic- 
ular sin ; a rumor that was not transient but permanent ? 
rather gaining strength than declining, and was accompanied 
by strong probability of the truth ? A. No general rumor. 

Q. Of that kind ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You are a member of the prosecuting committee, are 
you not ? A. I believe so, sir. 

Q. What specification is your testimony offered to support ? 
A. The last. 

Q. When did the offense alleged in this specification, name- 
ly, the seventh, occur? A. I think on the 2d of February. 
Q. How did you know when you drafted it and put in that 



440 



specification that any such offense had been committed at all? 
A. I don't think I catch the drift of your question. 

Q. You have got the other question — that when the offense 
occurred it was on the 2d of February, 1879 ; how did you 
know of the existence of any evidence as alleged in the seventh 
specification? A. I believed it my 

Q. (Interrupting.) "Where did you get the information? A. 
From the newspapers. 

Q. What was the information that the newspapers gave, to 
you ? A. They gave to me the announcement that was made. 

Q. What? A. The announcement that has been put in 
evidence here that all the newspapers say : " I was to be ar- 
raigned for heterodoxy, and what all the newspapers say must 
be true." 

Q. Here it is : " All the newspapers said that I am to be ar- 
raigned for heterodoxy, and what all the papers say must be 
true." That is the evidence, that all the papers say that he is 
to be arraigned for heterodoxy ; did you see the newspapers 
yourself that said that ? A. I saw one newspaper. 

Q. Wasn't that upon its very face a playful sarcasm rather 
than meant to be an earnest sober utterance ? A. I didn't 
think, so, sir, or I should never have advocated putting it in ; 
the rest of the committee didn't think so. 

Q. You took it as an earnest sober utterance of Dr. Talmage 
on the subject, thereby intending to mislead the people ; that 
was your construction was it ? A. Yes, sir ; I didn't think 
wheu he said that what all the newspapers said must be true, 
he meant it ; I agree with what the witnesses said the other 
day, that he meant it playfully. 

Q. Do you mean that if he said that what all the newspapers 
said must be true — do you suppose he meant to make a mis- 
statement in that? A. Well, there was an exaggeration there J 
of course he didn't mean literally every newspaper in the 
United States. 

Q. Then when he said " what all the newspapers say must 
be true," did you suppose he intended to speak in sober ear- 
nestness there ? A. No, I did not. 

Q. Then both phrases were nothing but playful sarcasm, 
were they ? A. No ; I don't agree that they were, 



441 



Q. How do you know they were not ? A. No ; I don't agree 
that they were. 

Q. Isn't that a true expression of the language ? A. No, 
sir ; I don't think so. 

Q. Do you know the newspapers had not said substantially 
just exactly what Dr. Talmage did say they said ? A. How is 
that, sir? 

Q. Did you know at the time that the newspapers had not 
said substantially just what Dr. Talmage thought they did 
say ? A. I didn't, so they had. 

Q. How did you know they hadn't ? A. For I hadn't seen 
anything of the kind. 

Q. How did you know that he hadn't seen it? A. I didn't 
know it; that is what we are here to find out. 

Q. Why did you put that in without knowledge of the fact ? 
A. Because we thought all the circumstances pointed to that 
state of the case. 

Q. Did you know that in this playful statement Dr. Talmage 
meant to say what he didn't believe to be true ? A. I didn't 
know it with any personal knowledge. 

Q. Do you know that in this playful sarcasm he meant to 
deceive his own people to whom he spoke? A. I don't know 
that he did to my own knowledge. 

Q. Do you know that anybody was deceived by this playful 
sarcasm? A. I don't of my own knowledge ; I was not. 

Q. Now, I ask you upon your honor, if you don't regard that 
specification as frivolous upon the very face of it ? A. No, 
sir ; I don't. 

Q. Then you disagree with all the community ? A. No, I 
don't think I do ; I may disagree with you, sir. 

Q. My manner is becoming too earnest for you ; I want 

A. Not at all, sir. 

Q. I wanted the Presbytery to agree with me ; you speak of 
an interview with Dr. Talmage on the 9th of April, 1878 ; I am 
correct as to the date, am I ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were there any public rumors at that time, charging Dr. 
Talmage with falsehood and deceit ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. If so, what were they ? A. Well, sir, just about that 
time — the 9th of April, 1878 — I think the week preceding that, 
56 



U2 

there had appeared in the papers a letter signed by the Board 
of Trustees of his church, in which they spoke of his apparent 
— they say, "if apparent sincerity" — speaking of Dr. Tal- 
mage's words from the pulpit, and then saying, " if apparent 
sincerity " meant anything, they had a right to believe so. 

Q. What Board of Trustees was that? A. The Trustees of 
the Tabernacle. 

Q. That had deserted the church ? A. Well, sir, that was 
the reason they went out. 

Q. They got offended about this organist matte]' and quit 
the church ? A. One of them has said he has lost all faith in 
Dr. Talm age's veracity that was going all over the papers. 

Q. Was a member of the church ? A. I don't know, sir. 

Q. You have got that point out ; that will come in another 
connection ; now, what else besides that ? A. That was taken 
up in several of the papers — an article in the World that I re- 
member now, and I think I saw at that time ; I certainly re- 
member seeing at that time an article in the Times, which re- 
viewed that and also the old matter — the Christian at Work, 
and so on, reviving that in connection with this. 

Q. Did you call Dr. Talmage's attention to those things, 
specifically in your conversation with him? A. To what 
things? 

Q. To these rumors specifically ; did you name the things 
to him when you talked with him ? A. I named several 
things. 

Q. Did you name these things ? A. These among others ; 
I won't be perfectly certain, but I think I did. 

Q. Mr. Millard has proposed a question, which I will re- 
peat, for I want to bring it out in another form ; Dr. Talmage 
in this interview proposed to you to select three or four mem- 
bers of the Presbytery, named Dr. Wells and Dr. Yan Dyke 
to consider the subject, and he would submit an explanation of 
the whole matter as the means of satisfying your mind ; now, 
I submit to you that that was an eminently Christian proposi- 
tion on its very face ? A. I have no criticism to make on Dr. 
Talmage's proposition at all. 

Q. Why did you not accept it, and at least try the experi- 
ment of thus relieving your own conscience ? A. For the sim- 



443 



pie reason, sir, that my object was not to have Dr. Talmage 
cleared in my own mind, but to have the Presbytery with 
which he was acting cleared in the general mind of the church- 
Q. Then you felt yourself specially charged to supervise the 
public character of the Presbytery ? A. I did, sir, under those 
circumstances. 

Q. The other members of the^Presbytery were not intensely 
occupied with this t thing, as you were ? A. They didn't seem 
to be, or they probably would have taken the initiative. 

Q. Did you consult with Dr. Drake, Dr. Wells, and the 
older members of the Presbytery in regard to this thing, at the 
time, speaking of your grievance, &c, to them ? A. I don't 
think I consulted with Dr. Drake or Dr. Wells ; but I think I 
did consult with several members of the Presbytery. 

Q. Will you tell the Presbytery why you, yourself, was so 
specially zealous to bring this matter before the Presbytery, 
without consultation with the older and senior members of the 
body ? A. That is a mistake ; I cannot answer that question, 
because it would not be true. 

Q. I will drop all the latter part of it ; why you, yourself, felt 
so specially burdened and zealous to bring this matter before 
the Presbytery ? A. Well, sir ; I had felt the pressure of pub- 
lic opinion, and of the criticisms of the ministers and laymen 
here in our own city ; other denominations as well as our own. 

Q. Eelating to falsehood and deceit on the part of Dr. Tal- 
mage ? Yes, sir ; just those matters altogether ; I heard them 
constantly speaking of the Presbytery as neglecting its duty, 
and as shamefully recreant in not bringing this matter to an 
issue, and if Dr. Talmage was to be unjustly assailed, standing 
by him and defending his reputation, and if he was justly as- 
sailed, in letting it be known. 

Q. And you, one of the younger members of the Presbytery, 
felt that you were the man to initiate this movement ? A. I 
felt it was somebody else's duty. 

Q. And if nobody else would do it, you would ? A. Yes, sir ; 
that is exactly the case. 

Q. Do you usually take copies of letters that you write ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Generally do not ? A. Generally do not. 



Q. Will you please tell why you preserved a copy of the 
letter you wrote to Dr. Talmage, declining his proposition writ- 
ten December 15th, 1878? A. I suppose it was simply that I 
might know what I had written. 

Q. Was there anything special that should lead you to pre- 
serve that copy, and not copies of other letters? A. Why, 
yes ; it w T as a very unusual sort of letter for me to write. 

Q. When Dr. Talmage, about April 16th, 1878, in the pres- 
ence of Mr. Corwin, formally demanded that you should give 
him the names of the persons charging him with offenses, as 
you allege, and you declined, why did you decline to give him 
the information he sought? A. Because he had misappre- 
hended my letter, and made a demand upon me on a ground 
which did not exist. 

Q. Why didn't you give him the names of persons that were 
charging him with these offenses — he asked for them ? A. Be- 
cause there were no names to give. 

Q. Then you had not heard of any persons charging him 
with these offenses ? A. I had heard through the public press 
of these offenses, and knew that the matter was being talked 
about. 

Q. How did you know it was being talked about, if you 
didn't hear people talk about it ? A. I heard people talk about 
it, and did not hear them make charges ; I heard them repeat 
charges that were made. 

Q. You told him that he was accused, so and so, and you 
wouldn't tell him by whom ? A. Oh, I did tell him by whom. 

Q. I am now alluding to the demauds made in the presence 
of Mr. Corwin — now, was it, in your opinion, Christian and 
just to bring to the ears of Dr. Talmage the alleged accusa- 
tion, and then withhold the authority therefor ? A. But I did 
not — you are misstating it. 

Q. The letter so states? A. No, sir; I beg your pardon. 

Q. You said your testimony, a moment since, was de- 
signed to support the seventh specification relating to what the 
newspapers said ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I have one or two questions to ask there : Have yon any 
reason for thinking that Dr. Talmage, on the 2d of February, 
1879, nearly a year after the interviews with you, indulging in 



445 

his playful sarcasm about what the newspaper said, had at 
that moment present to his mind these interviews ? A. I have 
a reason for thinking that. 

Q. That he had present to his mind these interviews ? A. 
Yes, sir ; I have a reason for thinking that. 

Q. We will hear it? A. My reason for thinking so is that 
the article which spoke of unsoundness of doctrine in the 
Eagle refers to the fact that had been talked of before, about 
bringing this matter up, and it struck me that Dr. Talmage 
could scarcely have read that article and got the idea about 
unsoundness of doctrine, without having his mind thrown back 
to those former occasions which were mentioned there. 

Q. How did you know he had read it ? A. I supposed he 
had got his information in that way. 

Q. How did you know that somebody hadn't just made the 
statement to him ? A. May be they did, may be they did. 

Q. Isn't it more reasonable to suppose that all he then thought 
about was what the paper said, as he had read, or somebody 
had told it to him, rather than that he should throw his mind 
back for ten minutes to the interviews he had had with you ; 
isn't that the fair construction? A. No, sir; I don't think it 
is, under all the circumstances of the case ; I think if you had 
known that as I did, you would agree to it. 

Q. In what was present to his mind as to what the news- 
papers said, did he then tell a lie as to what the papers did 
say ? A. Is that a hypothesis that you wish me to express an 
opinion on ? 

Q. You may answer it as you choose ? A. According to 
your statement of -the hypothesis, I don't think I would. 

Q. Didn't you tell a gentleman on the Hudson River Bail- 
road train last summer that Dr. Talmage was a liar and a 
scoundrel ? A. I don't know ; I don't think I did. 

Q. Kecollect ? A. I don't recollect saying any such words. 

Q. Do you remember saying such words ? A. No, sir ; I 
have no recollection at all of it. 

Q. I give you time to pause there ? A. I don't believe I 
could possibly recall it ; I don't remember anything of the 
kind. 

Q. Haven't you told a gentleman since the 1st of January 



446 



of this year that you intended, through this investigation, to 
drive Dr. Talmage out of the Presbyterian Church ? A. No, 
sir ; I never said that to any one. 
Q. Or out of Brooklyn ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Or out of the Presbytery of Brooklyn ? A. No, sir ; I 
am very sure I did not. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. There is one question ; the charge is that he was deceived 
when he told these things were in the papers, and they were 
not there ; do you suppose Dr. Talmage thought his people 
knew what was in the papers ? A. I don't catch the point ex- 
actly. 

Q. The charge is that he misstates what is in the papers ; 
that he states what was in all the papers was the charge of 
heterodoxy, while as a matter of fact other things were in 
the papers ; do youjnean to^ say he was going to deceive his 
people as to what the morning papers said, or the evening 
papers? A. As to what the papers said. 

Q. He was going to make them think the papers said one 
thing, while they in fact said the other ? A. I think he in- 
tended to give the fullest impression apparently ; I don't say 
that that is my settled belief, because Dr. Talmage may be 
very easily able to show that it was not so at all on the face of 
it ; that is the way it appeared. 

Q. Could you deceive your people by telling them a thing 
was in the papers that was not there ? A. I don't know, sir ; 
my people are not very credulous. 

Q. Don't you think Dr. Talmage's people read the papers as 
much as yourself ? A. I expect they do. 

Q. The question is, then, could Dr. Talmage deceive his 
people as to what was in the papers ? A. I don't know 
whether he could or not. 
Redirect-examination : 

Q. Why did you reject a prior conference between Dr. Tal- 
mage and the five brethren, two of whose names Dr. Talmage 
mentioned ; what were your reasons for declining that confer- 
ence ? A. That is the question I rather objected to ; we had 
good and sufficient reasons, as appeared to us, but I don't 
think it is necessary to state them here. 



447 



Q. Those reasons were equally obvious to the other minds 
of the committee ; it was not your reason personally ; that is 
what I want? A. I believed it and believe so still. 

Q. Why did you believe that Dr. Talmage, if arraigned at 
all, if the trial should come before the Presbytery with the 
matter then in its initial stages should come to a trial knew 
that he would be arraigned for heterodoxy and not for false- 
hood and deceit ? A. There were no matters even in their in- 
itial stages at that time. 

Q. Had ever anybody had a conference with Dr. Talmage to 
your knowledge relative to his orthodoxy or heterodoxy ? A. 
Not to my knowledge. 

Q. Why did you decline to give the names of those with 
whom you consulted before introducing this matter into the 
Presbytery? A. Simply because those were the private and 
confidential conferences with those gentlemen, and as my an- 
swers would necessarily affect them as well as myself, I do not 
feel that I have a right to give that answer without their con- 
sent, and I have not asked their consent. 
By Dr. Van Dyke : 

Q. I would like to ask Mr. Crosby one question if he has no 
objection to answer ; before you had that conference with Dr. 
Talmage on the 9th of April, 1878, a year ago, did you consult 
with any members of the Presbytery on the propriety of 
making that motion in Presbytery ? A. Yes, sir, I did ; 
several. 

Q. Was I one of them ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you have any conference with me upon the subject 
at all ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was it ; please to state what passed between you 
and me ? A. I went to your house on either Saturday, Sun- 
day or Monday evening ; I cannot remember ; it was Tuesday 
morning that I had the conference with Dr. Talmage, and I 
went to your house, as I remember, and told you that I had 
come not to ask your advice except on one particular point, 
and I did not want you to express any opinion except on that 
point ; I then told you in general terms what I proposed to do ; 
I said, " Now, I simply want to know whether that is a proper 
thing according to the Presbyterian rule — form of it," and I 



448 



think you said that it was in general, but you then said, " Now, 
take care what you are about," or something of that kind ; I 
said, " Well, I have not come to you for advice ; I shall go " 
or " I have been," I forget which, " to other members of the 
Presbytery, but I shall not consult with you in regard to 
the matter," and you gave me no opinion in regard to the 
matter. 

Q. Did you consult with other members of the Presbytery ? 
A. I did. 

Q. Do you wish to tell us who they were ? A. Not at all. 
By Dr. Wells : 

Q. Can I ask you a question ; are you willing to state why 
you did not proceed as you proposed to do a year ago and 
bring the matter before the Presbytery ? A. I did not proceed 
at that time because Dr. Talmage made the proposition which 
I have alluded to, aud I told him that in the face of that prop- 
osition, of course, I should let the matter drop, and then I re- 
ceived a letter from Dr. Wells urging upon me the impropriety 
of the course I had proposed, and from his view of the case, 
advising me strongly against it, informing me that he had just 
been with Dr. Talmage, or that Dr. Talmage had just been 
with him, and Dr. Talmage had shown him my letter, and 
it was rather a severe letter for Dr. Wells to write which I 
received ; kind, of course, and fatherly, but differing entirely 
from me in the matter ; I called upon Dr. Wells afterwards, 
and had a talk with him about it, and I think he understood 
my position better before we separated. 

" I have read my testimony here recorded and find it cor- 
rect." AKTHUK CEOSBY. 

The Moderator — Have you any more witnesses ? 

Mr. Crosby — Objection was raised by the counsel as to rele- 
vancy of my testimony to the seventh specification. We offer 
to put on the stand Mr. Greene as bearing testimony to a con- 
versation with Dr. Talmage, last spring, in relation to this 
matter, in order to strengthen our position, that Dr. Talmage 
had it forced home upon his mind, that in the minds of the 
Presbytery there was trouble about the rumors concerning his 
want of veracity, and we call Mr. Greene for that purpose. 



449 



At the close of Mr. Crosby's examination Rev. J. Milton 
Greene was called, and being duly sworn, testified as follows : 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Will you please state whether you had a conversation 
with Dr. Talmage last spring ? A. I had, sir. 

Q. What was the subject of it, and the substance of it, so far 
as you can give it ? A. Allow me to give what suggested it, 
sir ? 

Q. Yes. A. We met in the Tabernacle for our regular spring 
meeting of the Presbytery, on the 8th of April, a year ago, 
and while I was at my desk — the clerk's desk — just previous, 
if I remember rightly, to the opening of the session, Mr. Crosby 
came to me and in a few pleasant, confidential words, spoke of 
the rumors in regard to Dr. Talmage as weighing upon his 
mind, and that he felt disposed to bring them up at this meet- 
ing of the Presbytery, and have the Presbytery look into this 
matter. 

By Dr. Spear : 

Q. He, Mr. Talmage himself? A. No, that Mr. Crosby felt 
burdened with the matter, and felt that he himself would ask 
the Presbytery to look into the matter — to examine the matter; 
he proposed to bring it up for consideration by the Presby- 
tery ; there was but little time for conversation ; I don't re- 
member what my response to him was, but I gathered just that 
fact, that he was going to bring the matter up before the Pres- 
bytery ; as we had an hour of recess about six o'clock, and 
passed out into the Lay College for the collation, and we were 
standing talking before the tables were ready, I had been 
thinking about the matter a good deal after Mr. Crosby spoke 
to me in reference to it ; it had been in my own mind ; I had 
often felt deeply aggrieved and pained by these rumors, but had 
never had but one opinion in regard to them, and I thought 
that this was a good time and a providential opportunity for 
me to say a word to Dr. Talmage in reference to the matter ; I 
saw Dr. Talmage, and I said : "I understand that the matter 
of your veracity — these rumors touching your veracity — are to 
be brought before the Presbytery at this time" 

Q. Please state what passed between you and Dr. Talmage ? 
A. I took occasion, as we were gathered in the basement, tq 
57 



450 



speak to Dr. Talmage, and I said to him that I had under- 
stood these matters were to come before the Presbytery ; that 
is, the Presbytery were to be urged to consider them, and I 
endeavored to produce every argument in my power to induce 
Dr. Talmage to take the initiative; I spoke of my own feel- 
ings ; I knew he would not doubt my good feeling towards 
him ; I spoke of my own feelings and my firm belief that the 
best thing for him, for his Christian influence, for the work of 
the Tabernacle, would be for him to take the initiative, and let 
the Presbytery examine the rumors, believing, as I did, most 
firmly, that they were baseless, and could be shown to be so 
by a very superficial investigation ; he opposed that view, and 
argued against it with me for, I should think, ten minutes ; he 
said he didn't need any thing of that kind, and could go on 
very much better without it ; that it would be an injury rather 
than a benefit to him ; the conversation lasted some ten min- 
utes, 1 think, and it ended in Dr. Talmage's speaking more 
earnestly than ever, deprecating any such movement. 

Q, Did you have any further conference with Dr. Talmage 
on that subject ? A. I think not ; I don't recall any other. 
Cross-examination, by Mr. Millard : 

Q. So that, as far as he would get any information from 
you, brother Green, it would be that he was not to be arraigned 
at all, unless he took the initiative ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you make any other suggestion of the arraignment, 
except by his taking the initiative ? A. I told him that I had 
been informed that a member of the Presbytery would bring 
the matter before the body, and I asked him to anticipate that 
brother by asking the Presbytery to investigate it. 
By Dr. Van Dyke : 

Q. Did you inform Dr. Talmage who was going to bring the 
matter before the Presbytery? A. I cannot state positively 
whether I mentioned Mr. Crosby's name or not ; I cannot 
state. 

By Mr. Millard : 

Q. Let me ask you, did you specify the rumors ? A. Yes 5 
sir ; our conversation centered upon that ; we talked more 
about the matter of the removal of the organist than about 
the Christian at Work affair ; Dr. Talmage I know explained 
the matter. 



451 



Q. Were those the two matters so far as you now remem- 
ber? A. Yes, sir. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Was there anything else besides it ? A. No, sir. 
By Dr. Van Dyke : 

Q. Was anything said to him that Mr. Crosby was the man 
that would probably move the investigation ? A. I wish I 
could remember, but I really am unable to. 

Q. Was there anything he said to you to intimate that he 
knew Mr. Crosby was the man ? A. No, sir ; I gathered no 
impression of that kind. 

(Signed) J. MILTON GBEENE. 

At the close of Mr. Greene's examination, Mr. J. R. Morris 
was called, and being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Dr. Speak — Is this about the organist ? 

Mr. Crosby — Yes, sir ; I think so. 

(The sixth specification is read.) 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. We have it in evidence, Mr. Morris, that there was a joint 
meeting of some members of the Board of Trustees and the 
Session were you at any such meeting ? A. I was, sir. 

Q. Where was it held ? A. At Dr. Talmage's house. 

Q. Are you a member of the Session ? A. I was at that 
time ; I am not now, sir. 

Q. As a member of the Session did you know that a joint 
meeting was to be held ? A. I did not, sir, until afterwards. 

Q. Was a Session meeting to be held that night ? A. I 
think so, sir ; I won't be positive whether we organized or not. 

Q. Can you tell me what resolution was agreed upon at that 
joint meeting ? A. I can o\\\j remember part of it ; as I have 
not the resolution before me I cannot recall all of it ; I know 
that first there was to be an organist appointed and then af- 
terwards it was amended and the w^ord " another " put in. 

Q. Was that resolution carried ? 

A. It was, sir. 

Q. By what vote? A. I think it was by nearly a unanimous 
vote. 

Q. The members of the Session voted for it ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you remember what the form of that resolution was, 



whether it was a resolution that another. organist be appointed, 
or that the Session be requested to appoint another organist ? 
A. I think it was that the Session be requested to appoint an- 
other organist. 

Q. When was the next meeting of the Session held? A. 
Well, sir, I cannot tell whether it was held on the Sabbath 
evening or the Friday following. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. What evening was this? A. I forget what evening it 
was. 

Mr. Crosby — According to the Session book it was the 21st 
of March, 1878. 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Were you at the next meeting of the Session? A. If the 
next Session took place on Sunday night, I was there ; we used 
to have Session meetings on Friday and Sunday nights ; some- 
times I was not present. 

Q. At the next Session meeting that you remember, was any- 
thing done about the organist? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was it, do you remember? A. I remember that we 
talked about the organist, and the views of the different mem- 
bers of the Session were got at, were expressed and the ma- 
jority seemed to be in favor of securing Mr. Morgan. 

Q. Was any lesolution passed? A. I think so ; I won't be 
positive. 

\\ Mr. Crosby — I would like to put in evidence the record of 
those two meetings, which I noticed in the book the other day 
hi looking at it ; those are the meetings of March 21st, 1878, 
and of March 29th, 1878 ; may I ask that they be here to-morrow 
to be put into the record — those two meetings. 

Q. At that meeting, when this resolution was passed reap- 
pointing Mr. Morgan as organist, was any reference made in 
the discussion to that request which you say was resolved upon 
at the joint meeting? A. I don't think it came before the 
committee before the Session, unless it came before I came 
there. 

Q. You heard nothing of it? A. I don't think I did ; I don't 
remember^hearing of it. 

Q. Was any attention paid to the request of the Session and 



Trustees together ? A, We talked over the matter, and spoke 
about what the Trustees done and we of appointing an organ- 
ist, and doing away with the precentor. 

Q. "Were you in church — the Tabernacle — on Sunday, the 
24th of March, the" Sunday following the joint meeting? A. I 
could not be positive ; I think I was ; I won't be certain. 

Q. Did you hear, at that time, or at any time, Mr. Talmage 
make any announcement in regard to the organist? A. I 
think I was on the Sunday following ; I won't be positive, and 
I think there was an announcement made. 
By Dr. Speak : 

Q. The Sunday following which of the meetings — the joint 
meeting, or the meeting of the Session ? A. The Session meet- 
ing. 

By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Were you in church the Sunday after the joint meeting ? 
A. I could not tell— yes, sir ; I was. 

Q. Did you hear an announcement on that day from the 
pulpit about the organist ? A. I don't remember. 

Q. You don't remember hearing anything ? A. It may have 
been, but I don't recall it to my mind. 

Q. Did you hear Dr. Talmage say anything about his rela- 
tions with the Trustees on that Sunday ? A. I don't remem- 
ber. 

Q. Were you at church the following Sunday, April 1st, I 
think ? A. I think I was. 

Q. Did you hear any announcement on that day about the 
organist? A. If I was there I must have heard the announce- 
ment ; I could not tell you that ; I don't remember ; I will tell 
you ; I know there was an announcement made the Sunday 
after the joint meeting, when some of the members of the 
congregation spoke about their hiring Morgan ; I think it was 
that Su n( l a y afterwards, and several members spoke to me and 
said, " We want Mr. Morgan for organist." 

Q. Did you hear the announcement on the Sunday after the 
Session meeting ? A. I don't remember. 

(No cross-examination.) 

JOHN E. MOEEIS. 



454 



At the close of Mr. Morris' examination, Mr. S. B. LevericJi 
was called, and being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Mr. Crosby — This is also in sixth specification. 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Were you connected with the Tabernacle at any time ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was your position there? A. Well, I was teache 
in the Sunday-school at one time. 

Q. Were you connected with the Tabernacle in the spring 
of 1878 ? A. I should think so, sir ; I was a member there 
two or three years, and my membership only ceased last Octo 
ber, I think. 

Q. Were you in the church on the 24th of March, 1878 ? A. 
I could not testify as to the date precisely. 

Q. Did yon ever hear about that time Dr. Talmage make 
any announcement in regard to the organist of the church, and 
his relations with the Trustees ? A. About the 24th of March ? 

Q. Yes, sir. A. What year ? 

Q. Last year, 1878? A. I think so, sir. 

Q. Can you state what you remember about that notice, just 
the substance of it as fully as you can ? A.I will not be precise 
in regard to the particular Sabbath upon which this statement 
was made, but it was, of course, at a time when there was ex- 
citement in regard to the retaining of Mr. Morgan as organist ; 
I cannot give the whole substance of the notice, but the im- 
pression it left upon my mind was like this : that Dr. Talmage 
said that the two boards, meaning the Boards of Elders and 
Trustees, were all and each his warm personal friends ; that 
whatever pleased them would please him ; that is about the 
substance of it. 

Q. Do you remember his saying anything in regard to Mr. 
Morgan at that time ? A. I could not recall it. 

Q. What was this notice in regard to ? A. It was in regard 
to Mr. Morgan. 

Q. Do you remember his mentioning the matter, at that 
time, of Mr. Morgan in connection with what you have already 
said ? A. I could not say. 

Q. You don't remember Mr. Morgan's name being men- 
tioned? A. I cannot say; I simply give you the impression 
left upon my mind. 



455 



Q. Did he say anything abont the two boards agreeing ? 
A. Not that I recall. 

Q. Did you hear on any subsequent Sundays any announce- 
ment in regard to the organist ? A. I don't recall it. 

Q. Did you hear any other announcements after that ? A. 
On that same day ? 

Q. No. A. On the following Sabbath perhaps ? 

Q. Yes. A. I cannot speak of it with any definiteness. 

Q. Can you speak of it indefinitely ? A. Have I a right to 
mention my impressions? 

Q. You have a right to state anything you remember in 
connection with that question I asked you ; if you remember 
anything of an announcement, however slight ? A. I simply 
give the impression that was fixed upon my mind ; I think it 
was the Sunday that the announcement was made of the re- 
tirement of a part of the Trustees, was it not ? 

Mr. Millard — You will have to go by your own recol- 
lection. 

Witness — I decline to give any answer then, in regard to 
that. 

Q. What you heard? A. I don't recollect. 

Q. If you don't recollect hearing any announcement on that 
Sabbath ; do you remember hearing any announcement on 
that Sunday, even if you don't remember the substance of it ? 
A. No, I would not testify to it. 

S. B. LEVEKICH. 

At the close of Mr. S. B. Leverich's examination, the counsel 
for the prosecution asked if the defence would admit that Dr. 
Talmage paid $25 for the running of the presses on which the 
Christian at Work was printed on the night of October 9, 1876. 
This was admitted. 

Presbytery adjourned. 

J. MILTON GREENE, 

Stated; Clerk. 



April 14th, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 14, at 3 p. m. 

Rev. Arthur Crosby was recalled, and further testified as 
follows : 



456 



By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. Mr. Crosby, in your previous conversation you are 
charged with beiug pugnacious and rash ; that statement has 
gone out through the public print ; I would like to ask you, 
when did you leave the Theological Seminary of New Bruns- 
wick ? A. It was eleven years ago next fall. 

Q. Why did you leave the Theological Seminary of New 
Brunswick? A. Simply and entirely because I. believed I 
could obtain better educational advantages in the Seminary 
in New York. 

Q. Did you ever have a misunderstanding so far as you 
know, with any of the theological professors? A. No, sir; 
there was no personal difficulty of any sort or kind ; I left the 
seminary and what difficulty I referred to in my testimony be- 
fore, was that which the professors themselves felt, if there 
was any, at the fact that I had left the seminary. 

Q. Was the number of students at the seminary at that 
time large? A. No, sir; very small; there were only 
about a dozen or fifteen in the whole seminary. 

Q. And the feeling on their part was due, was it, to the fact 
of one of so small a number of students leaving? A. Well, 
sir ; I had been there at college ; my father had been a pro- 
fessor in the college there, and my uncle had also been ; I had 
a good many relations in New Brunswick, and it was known 
by everybody, and consequently when I left the seminary it 
created more or less talk ; but I left without any personal 
difficulty at all, and I went to the Union Seminary in New 
York, simply because I thought there were greater advantages 
there. 

Q. In your cross-examination you were asked relative to the 
place where and the time when you were ordained ; you could 
not then recall the fact ; have you since that time ? A. Oh> 
yes ; distinctly. 

Q. State it. A. I graduated from the Union Theological 
Seminary and received my diploma on one Tuesday ; on 
Thursday I went to Poughkeepsie ; was examined for licensure 
by the Dutch Classis, and after an examination of between 
four and five hours I was admitted and received and have my 
license from that body ; as I had been working for some months 



457 



— I think some six months — in the chapel in New York, Grace 
Mission, connected with my uncle's church, my ordination 
which was a mere matter of form, I having been performing 
the duties of pastor for some months, was a very informal 
affair ; two or three members of the New York Presbytery 
came down to the chapel one Wednesday evening, I think, 
after a prayer-meeting, and I was ordained by them ; after 
serving a year as an Evangelist in that way in that chapel I 
went to Kent, Connecticut, and was there regularly installed 
as pastor of that church, although I always retained my mem- 
bership in the Presbytery of New York until I was received 
by this Presbytery some five and a half years ago. 

AKTHUB OKOSBY. 
Elder W. M. Pierson was called, and being duly sworn, testi- 
fied as follows : 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. I have only one or two questions to ask you, sir, just in 
reference to a matter of history in the church ; you will re- 
member that we have in evidence the record of a meeting of 
the Session held on Friday evening, March 29th, 1878, at 
which meeting the following motion was adopted ; 

" Whereas, In the opinion of this Session the best interests of 
" this church temporally and spiritually demand that Mr. 
" George W. Morgan be retained as organist for the coming 
"year, therefore, 

" Resolved, First, that the Music Committee of this Session 
" are hereby directed to engage Mr. Morgan for the coming 
" year at a salary not to exceed $1,500 a year for church ser- 
vices, and, second, the Board of Trustees are hereby re- 
" quested to appropriate such sum as may be thus agreed 
" upon for such purpose ; third, that the matter of the pre- 
f centor for the coming year be referred to the Music Com- 
" mittee to be reported at a subsequent meeting of the Ses- 
sion." 

Do you remember that meeting? A. I do. 

Q. Was there any discussion that you recollect previous to 
the adoption of this resolution ? A. I do not at present recol- 
lect any discussion. 

Q. Was anything said in regard to a request that such a 
58 



458 

motion should be passed or that a different motion should be 
passed as coming from a joint meeting ? A. Not anything to 
my recollection. 

Q. You remember no reference being made to the request 
for the joint meeting of the Trustees in the Session ? A I 
don't think there was any at that meeting. 

Q. Were you present in the Tabernacle Church on the 24th 
of March, the Sunday preceding that Session meeting to which 
I have just referred ? A. I was. 

Q. Did you hear Dr. Talmage give out any announcement 
in regard to his relations with the Trustees? A. Not par- 
ticularly in regard to his relations with the Trustees ; I heard 
him give an announcement in relation to the appointment of 
organist. 

Q. On that previous Sunday ? A. On that previous Sunday, 
the 24th day of March. 

Q. What was the nature and substance so far as you can 
remember ? A. A notice was introduced respecting the or- 
ganist, and Dr. Talmage stated that he had had a preference 
in relation to the organist, but now he had none ; the matter 
was in the hands of the Session and Trustees — they were his 
friends and he left it with them. 

Q. Were you in the Tabernacle on the following Sunday, 
the 31st ? A. I was. 

Q. Did you hear an announcement in regard to the organist 
on that day ? A. I heard it announced that the Session had 
appointed Morgan as organist. 

Q. How was that announcement received ? A. Well, it was 
received with approbation. 

Q. How was the approbation expressed ? A. Very much 
as some of our approbation here is — full as orderly, I think ; 
a little more so ; the people expressed their satisfaction at the 
appointment of the organist. 

Q. Did you see any other demonstration except that of ap- 
probation on the part of any in the congregation ? A. I did 
not. 

Q. Did you see anybody withdraw from the church ? A. I 
did not. 

Q. That is all. A. I wish to say in explanation here that 



459 



Dr. Talmage gave this notice on the 24th of March, leaving 
the subject in the hands of the Session and the Trustees — hav- 
ing had a preference ; now he had none — and that he did not 
after that express any preference. 

WM. M. PIERSON. 

The prosecution Lere rested their case. 

The Eev. Mr. Millard then opened the case for the defence. 

At the close of Mr. Millard's address, Elder Laimbeer 
moved that the charges, with all the specifications, against Dr. 
Talmage be dismissed. 

At the request of Dr. Talmage' s counsel this motion was 
withdrawn. 

Eev. B. G. Benedict then moved that Specification IV. be 
dismissed, on the ground that it renders necessary the col- 
lateral trial of Kev. I. W. Hathaway. 

Presbytery decided to have a private conference in order to 
the more calm and thorough discussion of this motion. 

The audience, with the accused, the counsel on both sides, 
the reporters, and Bev. Mr. Hathaway, then retired, and Pres- 
bytery after a discussion of the pending motion decided to re- 
tain Specification IY. by a vote of 21 to 9. 

Presbytery then adjourned. 

J. MILTON GREENE, 

Stated Clerk 



Apkil 15th, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 15th at 3 P. M. 

Rev. Ghas. Wood was called, and being duly sworn, testified 
as follows : 
By Dr. Speak : 

Q. Did you have a conversation with the Rev. Mr. Crosby 
some time last summer in regard to Dr. Talmage ? A. It was, 
as near as I can remember, on the 3d of August, Saturday 
evening, in a Hudson river train of cars coming from Pough- 
keepsie to New York. 

Q. Have the kindness to state that conversation? A. In 
the course of our conversation he stated that Dr. Talmage 
was a disgrace to the ministry, and that he either was, or that 
he believed him to be both a liar and a scoundrel ; our con- 



460 



versation was in reference to vacations, and the return of 
ministers to their pulpits, and that led to the conversation 
upon the return of Dr. Talmage to his pulpit the next day, 
and in that way he was brought into the conversation. 

Q. What state or temper of mind did he evince towards Dr. 
Talmage? A. Just about the same temper that he has ex- 
hibited here on the witness-stand during this trial ; I see no 
difference whatever. 
Cross-examined by Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Do you mean to swear that Mr. Crosby used the exact 
words to which you have testified ? A. As near as I can re- 
collect, substantially those words. 

Q, Do you swear to the words " liar " and " scoundrel ? M 
A. I do. 

Q. You are perfectly positive I used those words ? A. I 
am as certain as it is possible for me to be of anything ; that 
was impressed upon my mind, because I have heard you use 
similar language in reference to other good men. 

Q. In reference to whom ? A. The elders of the First 
Presbyterian Church of Brooklyn. 

Q. What language did you hear me use in regard to them? 
A. I think you used the words that you would not believe 
them under oath. 

Q. Do you mean to testify that I said I would not believe 
the elders of the First Presbyterian Church on their oath ? 
A. I am on my oath, sir, and that was impressed on my mind ; 
I put the two things together. 

Q. (Interrupting) Fxcuse me ; do you say positively, I said 

I would not believe the elders A. (Interrupting.) I do, 

most assuredly. 

Q. Do you remember my using those particular words ? A. 
I do ; I remember the place where you used them ; I remember 
the circumstances, and several elders were in the room at the 
time, and I went to them and made the same statement to 
them. 

Q. Did you, at the time, express any feeling in regard to 
the matter to me ? A. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Q. What did you say to me ? A. I told you it was rash and 
it was with some difficulty 1 could stop you, and I said, "Now, 



461 



listen to my explanation ; I am authorized by them to make an 
explanation ; " it was in reference to Dr. Seaver's leaving the 
church, and you replied as soon as I made it ; you said : " I 
would not believe them under oath." 

Q. Are you sure you could not be mistaken in regard to that 
form of expression ? A. I don't think I am mistaken ; I am 
making these statements under the solemnity of an oath. 

Q. We know you are, sir ; you are perfectly confident you 
cannot be mistaken in regard to that? A. I am as certain of 
that as it is possible for me to be of anything. 

Q. How long ago was that ? A. That was in the winter of 
1876 and 1877 ; it was during the sale of some fancy articles in 
your lecture room ; the adjoining lecture room ; and when you 
made this statement about Talmage, I put the two things to- 
gether and regarded you as a very rash and a very censorious 
man. 

Q. What else passed between us in that conversation in the 
lecture room? A. I don't remember particularly, excepting 
that I went — I think that Elder — I am not sure that Elder Bab- 
cock was there ; but Hastings was there, Perkins was there, Mr. 
Potter was there, Mr. Ide was there, and I spoke to them 
"about it at the time, and these circumstances tended to im- 
press these things upon my mind, which led me to feel very 
sorry that you had engaged in the prosecution of the matter. 

Q. I did not ask you about that ; if you will please answer 
my questions and then stop when you have made your answer ; 
now, Mr. Wood, in that conversation in the railroad train to 
which you refer, did you express to me any disapprobation of 
my language ? A. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Q. What did you say ? A. I said to you, that you ought to 
be very certain before you would make such remarks about a 
minister ; and I remember you connecting them with certain 
statements made to you, in reference to Dr. Talmage's leaving 
the Christian at Work, and I admitted that there was some 
difficulty in that matter, and made the statement to you, 
that I should see Dr. Talmage about it, and I believe I did 
afterward. 

Q. Did your manner and intercourse with me during the rest 
of that ride on the cars continue to be cordial and pleasant ? 



462 

A. Oh ! yes, sir ; it was respectful ; it was respectful ; I had no 
reason to be otherwise, to act towards you in any other way ; 
I did not approve of your statements ; I know Dr. Talmage 
too well to have had it make any impression on my mind. 

Q. Have you not said o me since that time that you never 
heard or knew of anything at all contrary to my Christian 
character? A. "Well, I will tell you what I said exactly. 

Q. Didn't you say that, sir? A. No, sir. 

Q. Didn't you use words to that effect ? A. I used substan- 
tially that. 

Q. That is enough ; I have got your answer ? A. I will ex 
plain it. 

Q. That is enough ; you can answer the other counsel when 
they examine you ? 

Q. Question repeated ? A. Yes, sir ; I said I had not heard 
anything. 

Q. Didn't you tell that in your own house, or on the step of 
your house ? A. Yes, sir ; in my parlor. 

Q. Well, don't you consider a man, who without any provo- 
cation, should call any man a liar and scoundrel, and who 
should say he would not believe the elders of a neighboring 
church under oath, had said and done something that was con - 
trary to his Christian character ? A. I said that I had not 
not heard it but in connection with something else. 

Q. Didn't you hear what I said ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Then you mean to say there is nothing contrary to a 
man's Christian character in using such language ? A. No, 
sir ; I don't at all. 

Q. That is what you said and told me ? A. I told you at 
that time I had heard nothing. 

Q. And didn't you say it with great cordiality and shaking 
hands and saying you did not believe anything against me ? 
A. I shook hands. 

Q. Didn't you express by your countenance and looks and 
tone, your confidence in my Christian character ? A. No, sir. 

Q. How do you express Christian confidence ? A. I believe 
you are a Christian man, but I think you have been caused to 
do a very wrong thing. 

Q. That is not the point here that we are talking about — 



463 



what your opinions are in regard to that ; now, Mr. Wood, did 
you tell me — did you call rny attention to the fact in any way, 
that I had said I would not believe the Elders of the First 
Presbyterian Church under oath? A. I told you that I thought 
there was no use in reasoning with you on the subject when 
you made that statement. 

Q. Did you ever call my attention to the fact that I had 
stated I would not believe them under oath ? A. No ; not 
since that. 

Q. Have we met since that frequently? A. Yes, sir; very 
frequently. 

Q. Have you ever shown the slightest disapproval of me in 
your intercourse in any way ? A. I had no occasion to do it. 

Q, Have you ever talked against my character or spoken of 
these things to any one else? A. I have most decidedly 
spoken to a number of the members of this Presbytery. 

Q. To whom? A. I have spoken to Dr. Wells, Dr. Yan 
Dyke ; I have spoken to Dr. McClelland and a great many 
others. 

Q. Did you tell these gentlemen I had said I would not be- 
lieve the Elders of the First Presbyterian Church under oath ? 
A. I think some of them I told that ? 

Q. Whom did you tell ? A. I don't remember who it was 
I said it to. 

Q. You cannot remember anybody you told it to ? A. Not 
particularly. 

Q. Will you swear vou told it to anybody ? A. I think I 
did. 

Q. You cannot say positively you ever did V A. I don't re- 
member just now any one. 

Q. You don't remember having said that to any one ? A. I 
may have said it to a number. 

Q. Did you tell the elders of the church I told you that, at 
that time ? A. I did. 

Q. What elders did you tell ? A. I think I told Elder Ide 
and Elder Perkins, that you would not believe them on their 
oath ; that that was the expression you used. 

Q. You told Elder Perkins that?" A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What did he say about it ? A. I don't remember what 
he said. 



464 



Q. Do you think lie believed it ? A. Believed what ? 

Q. What yon told him ? A. I cannot tell what he believed 

Q. Did his manner express any A. I don't know, sir ; 

I don't know whether he believed it or not. 

Q. Did he seem to be excited by it ? A. Not at all. 

Q. Did he seem to think it was a very natural thiug? A. 
He seemed to be very much surprised at it, but did m t show 
any excitement. 

Q. Did you ever tell me that you had told these gentleme 
I had made such a remark ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You just reported it and said DothiDg to me about it? 
A. I reported it to them and the talk was about my seeing 
you about it. 

Q. But you didn't see me about it ? A. No, sir ; not after 
that. 

Q. Then you talked to other men behind my back but 
nothing to me ? A. Since this trial I have spoken about it. 

Q. Did you before this trial? A. I don't remember particu- 
larly. 

Q. Will you swear you have not ? A. I will not swear I 
have not. 

Q. You think you may have spoken about it? A. I may 
Q. But never spoke to me about it ? A. I don't remember * 
yes, sir ; I did ; I spoke to you in my parlor about it — about 
your calling Dr. Talmage a liar and a scoundrel, and stated 
you had used that strong language about the elders of the 
church. 

Q. Will you swear positively you spoke about those things 
to me in your parlor ? A. I have already sworn to it. 

Q. Without any doubt? A. I have already sworn to it. 

Q. I am merely asking you whether there is any doubt in 
your mind about it ? A. There is not the slightest doubt 
about it. 

Q. Now, you say this conversation in the lecture room of 
my church here took place while there was a sale going on of 
some fancy articles ; were there a great many people in the 
room? A. Not many while we had the conversation; the 
number increased after we had been there a little while. 

Q. Can you state here the exact connection in which I used 



465 



that language ? A. Well, sir, it was in regard to the leaving 
of that church by Dr. Seaver. 

Q. What did I say about that ? A. You denounced it as a 
mean and outrageous treatment on their part of that man — 
mean and outrageous. 

Q. Do you swear to those words ? A. I put them down in 
my note book ; I have got them, and I have looked at them 
since. 

Q. Did you also put down this other expression? A. I 
did. 

Q. How long afterwards did you put them down ? A. I am 
in the habit of doing that ; I went home and did it. 

Q. Never called my attention afterwards ? A. It is like a 
great many other things I hear from men when I think they 
are excited, as you seemed to be — very much excited and car- 
ried away by your feelings — you say things; I remember 
them, but I don't think it worth while to bring them up ; I did 
bring them to your attention in my parlor, however, since this 
trial commenced. 

Q. Did you ever tell me that you had called to my attention 
that I said I would not believe the elders under oath ? A. 
I told you, you had used somewhat similar language in refer- 
ence to the elders of the Henry Street Church, in my parlor ; 
I don't know that I entered into detail as to the expressions, 
but I told you you had used somewhat similar language. 

Q. Well, Mr. Wood, I won't ask you any more questions on 
that ; I shall come back on the stand. 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. How long have you been acquainted with Dr. Talmage ? 
A. About fifteen years. 

Q. Have you ever to any member of the Presbytery criti- 
cised unfavorably Dr. Talmage's method of preaching ? A. I 
may have done so. 

Q. Are you sure you did so ? A. I am not sure, but I 
think it quite probable I did. 

Q. Do you remember to whom you criticised unfavorably — 

in anything but a fraternal spirit A. (Interrupting.) I 

deny that I ever criticised it in any other way than in a 
fraternal spirit. 
59 



466 



Q. Why did you criticise his method of preaching ? A. I 
guess I know to what conversation you allude ; I am not quite 
certain I do. 

Q. Let us have it if you know it ? A. It was under the seal 
of confidential relationship ; that is why I hesitate to allude 
to it ; I decline to answer it. 

Q. You say you have done so ? A. I may have done so? 

Q. You are not sure you did ? A. I am not sure I did. 

Q. You are not sure you did not ? A. I am not sure I did 
not. 

Q. But you think 3^011 did ? A. I think I did, but yet my 
memory is treacherous somewhat in relation to that particular 
point ; I would here say that I have not approved of some of 
his methods of preaching, and I may have said so — told him 
so. 

Q. You say your memory is sometimes treacherous ? A. I 
said it was treacherous on that particular point. 

Q. It is singular that it should be on that particular point ; 
is it on any other points ? A. It may be. 

Q. Is it not possible that it is treacherous on that point when 
you met Brother Crosby on the Hudson Eiver cars ? A. I 
don't think it is possible. 

Q. Why ? A. Because the conversation was of such an em- 
phatic character that it could not but make its impression 
upon my mincl. 

Q. Is your conversation not of an emphatic character when 
you are unfavorably criticising Dr. Talmage? A. I don't 
admit that I was unfavorably criticising him. 

Q. You swore a little while ago that you may, and you 
think you did ? A. But you asked me if I did it in a fraternal 
manner. 

Q. We will drop that word "fraternal." A man when he is 
unfavorably criticising does not feel very brotherly; now, you 
say your memory is treacherous on some points ? A. I did 
not say so. 

Q. I think you did ? A. No, sir ; I said on one particular 
point. 

Q. Having'reference to Dr. Talmage ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did not this conversation on the Hudson River Kailroad 
have reference to Dr. Talmage ? A. It did, sir. 



467 



Q. How is it your memory does not prove treacherous then, 
and does now? A. No, I took note of it. 

Q. Are you in the habit of taking a note of words uttered 
by men under excitement? A. Sometimes I do. 

Q. Do you ever note your own words when under excite- 
ment ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you ever take notice of unfavorable criticisms of 
your own in your note book in regard to Dr. Talmage ? A. In 
regard to myself, but not in regard to Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Have you consulted it recently ? A. I have, sir ; I have 
it in my pocket now. 

Q. Have you a note that you unfavorably criticised Dr. 
Talmage ? A. No ; I don't think I have done that, because I 
don't think I did that ; that is, I don't think I unkindly criti- 
cised him. 

Q. Have you since your intercourse with brother Crosby 
been in the habit of receiving him in a very cordial and frater- 
nal manner? A. I always received him in a respectful, 
friendly way, of course. 

Q. How do you think a minister ought to receive another 
whom he regards as being a rash man and in the habit of 
characterizing his brethren in the Presbytery as scoundrels 
and liars ? A. If he has no personal difficulty with him he 
ought to treat him with respect. 

Q. Did you ever reprove brother Crosby ? A. I did reprove 
him at the time I so stated. 

Dr. Speak — I don't think we have any questions to ask, Mr. 
Moderator ; perhaps the witness desires to make an explana- 
tion on one point where he was arrested. 

The Witness — I don't remember just — it was in my parlor. 

Dr. Speak — You never heard anything contrary to Mr. Cros- 
by's Christian character ? A. That was brought out in this 
way — I beg leave here to explain it, because I can do so in 
consistency with truth; I had made a statement respecting 
him as a vulnerable man on account of his censoriousness and 
rashness ; I said it under the seal of confidential relationship 
in the presence of two brethren, members of the same asso- 
ciation with myself; they reported it to Mr. Crosby; }ir. 
Crosby connected that with the statement of Dr. Talmage, 



468. 

that he had received a letter damaging to him and he came to 
see me about it, subsequently connecting my statement that 
he was vulnerable with Dr. Talmage's statement that he had 
received a letter, and he wanted to know if I knew anything 
about the letter ; I told him I did not ; I had not heard of a 
letter at that time ; then he wanted to know if I had heard 
anything damaging to his reputation; I told him I had not ; 
in that way it came up. 
By Dr. McClelland : 

Q. Is it not possible that that assertion in regard to the 
elders was hypothetical ; that is, that he would not believe 
them under oath if such and such things were said by them ? 
A. I don't think it is hypothetical ; I don't see how it could 
be under the circumstances ; it was a very emphatic statement 
and he was a good deal excited, and he denounced their char- 
acter in very strong terms, and then used that expression when 
I gave my explanation. 

Q. Is it not possible that the strength of the expression so 
impressed your mind that you forgot the hypothesis? A. I 
don't know ; I cannot regard it as hypothetical, because some 
of the Session came in the room while we had been talking ; 
I went to them and spoke about it, thinking w T e would go to 
him and have a conversation about it. 
By Dr. Butler : 

Q. I would like to ask on what principle it is that Mr. Wood 
makes these entries in regard to statements made to him? A. 
For the same reason that I copy letters sometimes under some 
circumstances that are of a peculiar character, and when I 
think that possibly they may come to the surface again some- 
times, I want to be right. 

Q. Then there is some objection to using them subsequently ? 
A. Well, I did not know but possibly they might come up 
sometime; and I would say this, that my statement about 
this conversation in the cars w r as not with the slightest ex- 
pectation of my ever appearing as a witness ; it was made, in- 
deed, before the trial began. 

Q. But what was your object in making a note in reference 
to the conversation in the cars ? A. Dr. Talmage is a per- 
sonal friend of mine and I have great confidence in him, and I 



469 



made up my mind that I would go and talk with him and get 
an explanation about this Christian at Work, and I then stated 
to him that he was denounced as a liar and scoundrel in con- 
nection with these statements ; I have been asked why I 
treated him with respect ; I had supposed he had heard very 
strong statements, and they made that impression upon his 
mind. 

By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Do you know that my relations with the elders of the 
First Presbyterian Church have been friendly and cordial ever 
since the time that you refer to ? A.I presume they have 
been ; I rather think they have been. 

Q. Then your report to them did not have any effect on 
their minds, so far as you know ? A. Yes, sir ; I think it has 
had an effect ; but I am not here to testify to the effect. 

Q. Don't you know that my relations with — you mentioned 
Mr. Perkins— -with Mr. Perkins and with Mr. Ogden, have been ' 
particularly friendly and cordial since that time ? A. I don't 
know that ifc has been particularly, so. 

Q. Do you know that they have not been so ? A. No, I do 
not. 

By Dr. Wells : 

Q. May I ask why you thought it necessary to report to the 
elders of the First Church the conversation of Brother Crosby ? 
A. With a view of having a conversation with him about it 
there and then at that time. 

Q. 'Wouldn't it have been better for you to have kept that ? 
A. I don't know about that. 
By Dr. Butler : 

Q. May I inquire whether there was nothing in the conver- 
sation that Brother Wood would regard in any sense as confi- 
dential ; is he in the habit of stating things in that way ? A. 
I don't receive such things in confidence, especially when they 
are about special friends ; I am under a primary obligation to 
my friends. 

Q. It is your habit, then, to state these facts ? A. Although, 
as I said a while ago, this statement of Dr. Talmage was never 
noted in the expectation of being called as a witness. 

Q. It is your habit to state things that are said censoriously ? 



470 



A. I exercise my own discrimination about that entirely, sir ; 
I am competent to exercise my own discretion ; I understand 
the animus of that question. 
By Dr. McClelland : 

Q. Were there any persons present when Mr. Crosby made 
the remarks concerning the elders of the First Presbyterian 
Church ? A. No ; it was a private conversation ; it was in a 
room where a good many of them were ; there were persons 
in the room ; I don't suppose they heard the conversation ; we 
stood up on the floor and conversed together. 

Q. How far were the persons present from you ? A. I can- 
not tell you exactly ; I did not measure the distance. 

Q. Give us some idea ; it is a very important matter ? A. I 
cannot. 

Q. "Was Mr. Crosby excited ? A. Yes, sir ; very much ex- 
cited. 

Q. Did he speak loudly ? A. I don't know that he did. 

Q. Was he, then, not so excited but that he could keep his 
voice in absolute control? A. I cannot state that. 

Q. Did he speak as loud as excited men do ? A. He spoke 
loud enough for me to hear him. 

Q. When men are excited in such a way, do they speak 
loud ? A. He spoke loud enough to be heard. 

Q. Did he indicate by the loudness of his speech, that he 
was excited ? A. He indicated altogether that he was excited, 

Q. Did his voice ? His voice did, too. 

Q. Did his excitement extend, therefore, to the volume of 
his voice ? A. I don't know to what extent ; there was con- 
siderable volume, so that I could hear it. 

Q. Could it have been heard by the persons near as well as 
yourself? A. I cannot tell what might have been heard. 

Q. Did it seem to you- likely that persons near you might 
have heard it ? A. Not if they had been attending to their 
own business 

CHAELES WOOD. 

Mr. B. B. Coricin was then called, and being duly sworn, 
testified as follows : 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. When did you become connected with the Christian at 
Work ? A. October, 1875. 



471 



Q. How did you become connected with it ? A. By enter- 
ing into an agreement with the Trustees of the Christian at 
Work 

Q. When and where was your first interview, if you remem- 
ber, and whom with ? A. The first interview that had any 
shape or bearing on my conduct was with Mr. Eemington, at 
Saratoga. 

Q. When was that? A. The last of August or the first of 
September. 

Q. Just state, Mr. Corwin, the purport of that interview ? 
A. I was there during my holiday ; Mr. Remington came on 
purpose to see me ; he spent the best part of the day with me 
in talking over the matter ; there was nothing definitely ar- 
ranged ; I asked him if all were agreed ; he did not give any 
definite answer ; he was not in the habit of giving definite an- 
swers ; I think it was my experience with him ; the next in- 
terview I had, which was at my office, 319 Broadway, was with 
Mr. Hawley, the secretary of the association, and one of the 
other Trustees, I think Mr. Dickinson ; they brought me a res- 
olution of the Board of Trustees of the Christian at Work 
Association, which stated that the resolution passed unani- 
mously requesting me to become the treasurer and publisher ; 
I asked if all the creditors were unanimous in the matter ; 
they then brought me a resolution, passed subsequently, sta- 
ting that they had advised with their principal creditors, and 
it was unanimous. 

Q. What, at this time, was your business ? A. I was man- 
ager of the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company for the 
British Provinces. 

Q. How long had you been in that business ? A. I had 
been in that business — not for that company — for about ten 
years ; for that company, three or four years. 

Q. Did you, afterwards, see any of the officers of the Chris- 
tian at Work, if so, when and where ? A. I don't remember 
the subsequent interviews ; the result of all the negotiations 
and interviews was that I assumed the position of publish- 
er, on the first of October, I think. 

Q. 1875? A. 1875. 

Q. What was the financial condition of the paper when you 



472 



went into it ? A. The financial condition of the paper was 
not flattering ; I said to the Trustees, " If you will take care of 
the back indebtedness, I will try to look out for the future in- 
debtedness ;" the bookkeeper gave me a memorandum that the 
old company's paper matured in November, 1875, in March, 
1876, June, 1876, and July, 1876, $16,898 x y Tr ; accommodation 
paper, $45,207 T 5 o 3 o ; business paper, $9,518y 4 o 8 o- ; due contribu- 
tors, $1,400; sundry accounts, paper, printing, &c, $2,220 T 3 o 4 o ; 
rent, $600 ; in addition to the above there is about half a 
month's printing of the paper, amounting to about $1,000; 
total, $78,844 X <VV 

Q. Can you tell the number of subscribers when you went 
in and the number when you left? A. I think the first of 
October, it was about fourteen or fifteen thousand ; I think it 
was about the first of March — February to March — 18,000 ; 
there was one edition, I think, of about 19,000 or 20,000. 

Q. The first date was when you went in and the other when 
you went out ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long did you remain as publisher of that ? A. I 
will state in connection with the last question that on Decem- 
ber 9th we received 126 subscribers, December 16th, 208 sub- 
scribers, December 23d, 387 subscribers, December 30th, 677 
subscribers, making, having received during that month, by 
mail alone, 1,398 subscribers. 

Q. How long did you remain as publisher ? A. Nominally, 
six months ; actually, three months. 

Q. Just explain your remark ? A. When I first went there 
I supposed they wanted me to go to work, agreeing to take 
care of the past indebtedness, and for me to pay my attention 
exclusively to business ; October, November aud December 
had passed with every expression of satisfaction ; January 
came, and there seemed to be some hitch somewhere, some fric- 
tion ; we had received considerable money for subscriptions, 
but there seemed to be a tightening up of the money market 
especially ; Mr. Remington at last said that he could not fur- 
nish any more money, and, unless there could be some assist- 
ance, the paper must stop ; at last he concluded to carry it 
through the month of February ; I asked him what his plan 
was towards the subscribers, who had come in recently, naming 



473 



the months of December and January ; if he had any plan of 
supplying them with their subscriptions which would be due 
them, in case the paper stopped ; they having received but 
two months' subscriptions, there would be ten months due 
them; he said he had no plan; I did not feel then like urg- 
ing people to subscribe to pay in their three dollars if there 
was no chance or prospect of their getting more than one or 
two months of the paper ; we laid on our oars to know what 
the future would develop. 

Q. In Mr. Bemington's testimony you are charged with hav- 
ing managed the company disadvantageously ; have you any- 
thing to say about that ? A. Mr. Bemington's statement was 
not sufficiently distinct for me to reply to ; when I went there, 
there was a large contract already entered into for chromos, 
which were to be paid for out of the coming expenses ; they 
were not worth mailing, and I could not bear to send them off ; 
I do not know of anything else that I could refer to that was 
made before my arrival. 

Q. I will ask you another question ; did the debt of the 
paper increase while you were connected with it ? A. I think 
not. 

Q. How in regard to expenses ? A. I had reduced expenses 
very soon after I went there ; reduced some unnecessary help 
— employees — a large force, and had taken steps for reducing 
the item of rent, which was $2,000.00. 

Q. Do you remember an interview which took place at your 
house on the 6th of March, 1876, between Mr. Hallock, Dr. 
Talmage, and yourself? A. I remember such an interview. 

Q. Just state what was said at that interview? A. The 
interview was entirely unexpected to me ; it was late in the 
evening ; I had not seen Mr. Hallock before ; as I have already 
stated, Mr. Bemington had said that he would carry the Chris- 
tian at Work through the month of February. 

Q. Please go on and state what was said? A. I have al- 
most forgotten ; it was so many years ago that, if you throw 
me off the track, I shall not get on again. 

Q. Just state, as near as you can, what was said? A. I re- 
1 member Mr. Hallock's calling at my house in March; February 
> bad just passed, and March was upon us without any promise 
60 



474 



or prospect of the paper's continuing through another publica- 
tion ; Dr. Talmage's name was on the paper as editor ; my own 
name was on the paper as publisher ; it was a matter of great 
concern to us whether the subscribers, who had sent in their 
three dollars from all over the country, should receive the paper 
for the balance of the year ; that was one thing that was on my 
mind, and I think it was the only thing on Dr. Talmage's 
mind when Mr. Hallock called ; I believe that Dr. Talmage 
made the proposition to Mr. Hallock, " If you will buy this 
paper, relieve us from this uncertainty, I will serve you a year 
as editor for nothing ;" there was no further talk of bivying the 
paper ; nothing of the kind ; then the question was asked Mr. 
Hallock if, in the event the Christian at Wurk stopped, he 
could take on his own type, on his own form, and issue and 
supply for the unexpired term to the subscribers for the bal- 
ance of the year a paper, looking to them for the renewal of 
their paper for his remuneration ; the conversation lasted per- 
haps half an hour ; not over three quarters ; it was never re- 
ferred to again ; I never thought of it again ; it resulted in 
nothing. 

Q. Let me ask you, right there, whether there was any talk 
of starting a rival paper ? A. There was no talk of starting a 
rival paper, and no thought of starting a rival paper ; we had 
had enough of papers, I think — I had, at any rate — for the 
last five months, and I thought Dr. Talmage had, without any 
idea of starting a rival paper ; a rival paper was not men- 
tioned in any way, shape or kind, in my house on the 6th of 
March. 

Q. The whole thing hinged on the stoppage of the other 
paper ? A. Everything hinged on the stoppage of the Chris- 
tian at Work. 

Q. How about the word "at?" A. There were some re- 
marks made about the paper being issued under the name of 
the Christian at Work ; I think I suggested " leave out the 
word 'at' and call it the ' Christian Work,' it is a better title, 
an} how ;" it was a matter I had spoken of the previous year, 
when I first went to the paper ; in my opinion, it was a better 
title than Christian at Work. 

Q. What did Mr. Hallock answer, in regard to the possibility 



475 



of getting off the paper ? A. He thought he could do it on 
his own type, he being at that time, as I understood, the pub- 
lisher of a paper. 

Q. Of what paper ? A. The Liberal Christian, I think ; I am 
not sure. 

Q. Was there any allusion made in that conversation to the 
subscription list ? A. There was ; in the event of the Chris- 
tian at Work stopping, I remarked : "I can supply the name 
and address of all the subscribers to whom we ought to send 
the paper for the balance of the year." I had the subscrip- 
tion list in my desk, which was in the parlor ; I will mention 
here, how the subscription list came there ; when I went to 
the Christian at Work, in October, 1875, 1 was informed by the 
Secretary, Mr. Hawley, that it was the custom inaugurated by 
the previous publisher, that there should be three copies of 
the subscription list struck off every week ; one copy was hung- 
up in the publishing office for reference by the employees ; 
one copy was sent to Mr. Brady, 113 Spruce street, the mailer, 
and one copy was sent to the publisher's house — this was sent 
by the office boy ; I never touched it ; he delivered it at the 
door ; it was always put in the lower part of my desk, and 
there accumulated, month after month ; Mr. Hallock did not 
see it, or no other man. 

Q I understood you to say, Mr. Hallock thought he could 
get it out without any break, on his own type ? A. There was 
no allusion to anything except could the paper be gotten off 
in time to supply the place of the Christian at Work in case 
the Christian at Work broke? the correspondence between Mr. 
Hawley, Mr. Remington and myself had given me to under- 
stand, in most emphatic terms,, that unless something could be 
done, the paper could not go any longer ; Mr. Remington spy- 
ing, "It's a sorry sight to see a ship founder in sight of port, 
but such seems to be the fate of the Christian at Wor k ; " Mr. 
Hawley stating, in a letter of the 12th of January, I think, 
" Two things more Mr. Remington cannot do : he cannot sup- 
ply any more money, and cannot place any more discounts." 

Q. Had Mr. Remington himself gone to protest at that time ? 
A. I am not informed of Mr. Remington's finances at all, only 
through the Secretary ; I will say, though, that he never as- 



476 



sumed the duties of Treasurer of the Christian at Work ; Mr. 
Hawley, the Secretary, performed those duties, and he in- 
formed rue that the banks where he had formerly placed Mr. 
Remington's paper had refused to discount them. 

(Objected to.) 

A. It is official, sir. 

Q. Did Mr. Hallock, in that connection say anything about 
what you were talking of being legal or illegal? A. You say, 
what I am talking about ; T am talking about a good many 
things. 

Q. In this proposition that was made about getting out a 
new paper, did he say it was not legal — whoever you talked 
about — he said it might be according to Gospel, but it would 
not be according to law ? A. Mr. Hallock made a statement 
afterwards in which he said that he stated, to the proposition 
made to him at my house, the law would not allow it to be 
done, if the Gospel did. 

Q. That is the remark ; was anything of that kind said ? A. 
Well, sir, if anything of that kind had been said, 1 should have 
considered it an insult, in that it reflected on my pastor, and 
being very sure of that, the man who said it would not have 
waited any longer for an exit from my house. 

Q. You mean to say nothing of the kind was ever said ? A. 
Nothing of the kind was ever said in my presence, or in my 
house on the 6th of March, 

Q. Was there anything said about the subscription list being 
at your house ; I think you have said you had it there ? A. I 
referred to the fact, that I could supply the names and ad- 
dresses of all the subscribers who should have their paper for 
the balance of the year, eight, nine, or ten months, as it 
might be. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage say anything about the subscription 
list ? A. I do not think he said one word about it ; I do not 
think anything was said about the subscription list except the 
remark that I made myself. 

Q. You spoke of a system in regard to these subscription 
lists ; who inaugurated that system ? A. I do not know ; it 
was inaugurated before I went there. 

Q. Did you ever furnish a subscription list of the Christian 
at Work) to the Advance of Chicago ? A. No, sir. 



477 



Q. What did you mean by referring to the subscription list 
that you had in your desk ? A. I think I have answered that 
question ; I will answer it again. 

Q. No matter, sir ; Did Dr. Talmage make use of this ex- 
pression at that interview : " Not five hundred subscribers will 
" remain with Remington," or anything to that effect? A. I 
answered that at the time a good many years ago ; no such re- 
mark was ever made in my presence that night. 

Q. Did Mr. Hallock say that he could not conscientiously 
carry out the plan proposed by you at this interview ? A. He 
said he could carry out the plan proposed without a break. 

Q.-At this interview, was anything said about an emergency ; 
f so what was meant? A. It was all emergency; it was 
emergency whether the Christian at Work would stop — that 
was the chief emergency we were thinking of ; it was an emer- 
gency whether we could supply in the case of a stoppage of 
the Christian at Work to the people whose money we had 
taken, a paper in place of it. 

Q. Have you read the open letter of the statement of Mr. 
Hallock of October 19th, 1872 ? A. I have a reply to it. 

Q. Was that statement true or false? A. I should like to 
read my reply made at that time, I think it would be the best 
answer I could give. 

A. " Mr. J. N. Hallock, publisher and proprietor of the 
Christian at Work, has published a statement of what he says 
transpired at my house on the evening of the 6th of March, 
last, under the title " An Unique Suggestion— a Plan that did 
not Work, and that Stolen List ; " he did call without my in- 
vitation or expectation ; it was our only interview and lasted 
about half an hour ; there was no remark made during the 
time, that could be construed into Mr. Hallock's statement ; 
there was no attempt at privacy ; Mr. E. Remington, former 
proprietor of the Christian at Work, had notified the editor, 
publisher, and secretary, in January, that he was financially 
unable to carry on the paper ; this was known generally in the 
office, it was the cause of anxiety to all, especially to Dr. Tal- 
mage and myself, how the subscribers could be reimbursed 
for unexpired subscriptions ; Mr. Remington was asked by me 
what plan should be pursued ; he replied, I have none ; at last, 



478 



Mr. Remington agreed to carry the paper through the month 
of February only ; in the meantime every effort was to be made 
to sell or consolidate the Christian at Work ; it could not be 
done ; and the first of March found us in the same uncertain 
state, expecting every issue to be the last ; this was the con- 
dition of things March 6th, when Mr. Hallock called ; Mr. Hal- 
lock was asked if he could, in the event of a stoppage, publish 
a paper to fill out the unexpired time, trusting to the future 
renewal subscriptions for his remuneration ; he replied that he 
could ; there was no proposition made to him, no urging or 
effort to influence him ; the question was asked, what could be 
done in an emergency, and that is what Mr. Hallock terms an 
" unique suggestion ;" to get out a paper called the Christian 
Work was nothing new ; it was proposed repeatedly months 
before in the Christian at Work office to drop the word " at;" 
that was before Mr. Remington proposed to drop everything ; 
if that was done some paper must be sent to the subscribers ; 
that is what Mr. Hallock calls a " plan that did not work ;" at 
that time, March 6th, I was publisher and treasurer of the 
Christian at Work Publishing Company ; three copies of the 
mail list were printed, one for the mailer, one for the office, 
and one to be sent to the publisher's house for safety in case 
of fire at the office ; it was sent every week by the printer's 
boy, and placed in my desk, and never shown to Mr. Hallock 
or any other person ; I being treasurer and publisher, and hav- 
ing the subscription list sent to my house for protection, as 
did the former publisher, is what Mr. Hallock's statements call 
" that stolen list ;"' Mr. Talmage never uttered the words, in 
my presence, "not five hundred subscribers will remain with 
Remington," as Mr. Hallock asserts; Mr. Hallock's statement 
" I intimated that the law would not allow us to take such a 
course, even if the gospel would," is absolutely false ; his state- 
ment, " I informed them I could never conscientiously carry 
out that programme " is absolutely false. All my connection 
with the Christian at Work ceased March 31." 

Q. Now you say on your oath that the statement made in 
your — what do you say in regard to this statement, now upon 
your oath, as being true or false ? A. It was true w r hen I first 
wrote it, and it is true now. 



479 



Q. Did you receive any suggestions from any one about 
writing this reply? A. No man, woman or child ever made a 
suggestion to me of one word that is in that statement. 

Q. Dr. Talmage, then, made no suggestion to you whatever? 
A. He never saw it until after it was written, and I showed it 
to him. 

Q. How came Dr. Talmage's endorsement upon your reply ; 
is it there ? A. It is ; after I had written it, I took it to Dr. 
Talmage's house, and asked him if he had seen Mr. Hallock's 
statement, and told him I had made a reply to it which I wished 
to read to him. 

Q. And he then put the endorsement on ? A. He objected 
to making any reply to Mr. Hallock's statement ; he said it 
made no difference what Mr. Hallock had said,|he should not 
reply ; I told him I should reply whether he did or not ; I had 
something to say, whether he did or not, and positively asserted 
my determination to reply to Mr. Ballock in the words which 
I read to him ; I asked him if it was true ; he said yes ; I said, 
" then I ask you to make your endorsement upon it ; he made 
the endorsement as follows : 

" I have read the above statement by Mr. Cor win, and find 
" it true in every point ; I might particularize at length in re- 
* gard to Mr. Hallock's statement, which is false in part and 
" false m all. T. De WITT TALMAGE. 

" Brooklyn, Oct. 20, '76." 
I may say that Dr. Talmage did not request me to publish it ; 
did not know that I was going to make an open letter of it ; 
I used my own judgment in the matter. 

Q. Where did you publish it ? A. In all the papers I could 
get it in ; I cannot specify ; the Brooklyn Eagle, I remember, I 
went to with it. 

Q, Did you have any future interviews with Mr. Hallock of 
any kind? A. Never saw him again to speak with him, I think, 
until I saw him in this room. 

Q. Did you ever receive any congratulations from Mr. liem- 
ington, as to the manner in which you conducted the paper ; 
if so, when and where ? A. I did. 

Q. Just state it ? A. I have excerpts here from his letters, 
if I may be allowed to read them. 



480 



Dr. Spear — The witness identifies them. 

Mr. Crosby — I should like to see them if you please. 

Q. Read extracts from any letters to yourself? 

Mr. Crosby — I should like to ask if the letters themselves 
are in existence ? A. They are not. 

Q. Have you copies of the whole letters ? A. I have not. 

Q. Do you know whether there are copies of the whole let- 
ters in existenee ? A. I do not know what Mr. Eemington has 
got. 

Q. Do you know whether there are any ? A. How could I 
know. 

Q. I ask you whether you do know ? A. I do not. 
Q. You do not know whether there are any copies in exist- 
ence? A. This is the only copy I have. 
Mr. Crosby — I would like the whole letter if you can get it ? 
Mr. Millard — We have not got it. 

Q. Just read the extracts so far as you have them ? A. Mr. 
Remington wrote me in January, 1876, " We may confidently 
" look to see the Christian at Work, ere long emerge from the 
" cloud of embarrassment that has so long hovered over it ; *' 
"February 5th, 1876, Mr. Remington wrote me, "If there can 
"not be a reasonable certainty of at least meeting expenses 
" for the year to come, I could not think of undertaking to 
" carry the load any longer ; " another letter of January 4th, 
1876, says, "Letters from brother Hawley have kept me pretty 
" well advised in regard to the improved condition of affairs ; 
" I should have written before to congratulate you on the 
" measure of success you have already attained." 

Q. Those are all, are they ? A. I think that is all. 

Q. I will ask you, Major Corwin, what was Mr. Remington's 
conduct towards the employees of the paper ; what was his 
treatment of the employees? A. Dictatorial. 

Q. Did he make it pleasant or unpleasant for yourself and 
Dr. Talmage while you were connected with the paper ? A. 
It was not a pleasant position for me ; I do not think it was 
for Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Just state in what way he made it unpleasant, if in any 
wa}'? A, There was an unsettled state of management; a 
policy adopted one week might be changed the next ; Mr. 



481 



Kemington agreed to secure a lease of the building one week, 
and countermanded it the next. 

Q. Was Mr. Remington's decision in these matters final? 
A. No appeal from Mr. Remington. 

Q. Just state any instance illustrating, if you think of any ? 
A. Mr. Remington would agree to pay an employee a salary* 

Mr. Crosby — I object to that ; I shonld like a specific in- 
stance. 

The Witness — My own. 

Mr. Crosby— I object to it. 

The Witness — My answer is referring exclusively to myself ; 
I was Mr. Remington's employee at a salary of four thous- 
and dollars a year. 

Q. Just state it in the past tense that he did do so. 

The Witness — Mr. Remington agreed to pay me four thous- 
and dollars a year : that agreement might last three months 
and then he would want to change the salary ; there were 
several instances of that — my own — Dr. Talmage's ; it came 
under my own observation as publisher and treasurer. 

Mr. Crosby — So far as he knows it of his own personal 
knowledge. 

The Witness — At that time I was nominally treasurer and 
actually publisher of the paper ; I ought to have known. 

Q. Go on. A. He wanted Mr. Bright to take less salary 
ani Mr. Hawley ; I am not sure about Mr. Hawley, but Mr. 
Bright, I guess that is three. 

Q. Was the Christian at Work a corporation ? A. I think it 
was. 

Q. Who assumed control and management ? A. Mr. Rem- 
ington. 

Q. By whom were you employed as publisher? A. By the 
resolution of the Board of Trustees. 

Q. By whom were you discharged ? A. Mr. Remington. 

Q. Why were you discharged ? A. Mr. Remington wanted 
less money to pay for publisher. 

Q. What was your salary? A. $4,000 and an interest in the 
increase of business of the paper. 

Q. While connected with this paper, did you have frequent 
interviews with Dr. Talmage ? A. Yery frequent. 
61 



482 



Q. In those interviews, did Dr. Talmage express any dis- 
satisfaction with the management of the paper. A. He did. 

' Q. What advice did you give Dr. Talmage ? A. I advised 
him to get out. 

Q. Why did you give him that advice? A. I told him that 
if he staid there any longer he would be disgraced by the un- 
certain management of the paper ; those are the words that 1 
used. 

Q. Now I want to ask you if you know anything about Dr. 
Talmage leaving the Christian at Work, and if so, what? A. 
I know that Dr. Talmage intended to leave the Christian at 
Work on the 12th of November, 1876 ; I think he decided to 
leave three or four months previously, but had reconsidered 
that decision. 

Q. How do you know that he intended to leave on the 12th 
of November ? A. From the fact that I was present at an in- 
terview with Gen. Howard and Dr. Talmage in October, re- 
specting the connection of Dr. Talmage as editor with tine Ad- 
vance; they had talked the matter over previously, I think; 
the matter of giving notice to the Christian at Work was spoken 
of ; the matter that the Christian at Work had had notice three 
or four months previously was spoken of, but it was also 
spoken, " Better give them the thirty clays' notice, then there 
can be no misunderstanding ;" the calendar was consulted, 
that on the 12th of October the next issue would go to 
press ; I think there was already one copy in type, say per- 
haps the 5th of October ; but that next issue, the next edi- 
torial to be written would go to press on the 12th of October ; 
therefore, if a notice were given that his relations as editor of 
the Christian at Work would cease on the 12th of November, 
there could be no fault found, and that was decided upon then 
and there ; a memorandum was drawn up to that effect, signed 
by Gen. Howard and myself, as witnesses. 

Q. When was that interview ? A. That was dated the 4th 
of October. 

Cross-examined, by Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Have you that memoranda referred to ? A. I have not ; 
never had it. 

Mr. Crosby — Is it in possession of the counsel ? 



483 



Mr. Millard — We have not got it, sir. 

Q. Are you acquainted with Thomas E. Pearsall? A. I 
am. 

Q. Were you an elder in the Tabernacle Church at the time 
Mr. Pearsall resigned his position as Trustee ? A. I was. 

Q. What was the date of his resignation? A. I think in 
April, the first, second or third, 1878. 

Q. Are you still an elder in the Tabernacle Church ? A. I 
am. 

Q. When Mr. Pearsall resigned from the Board of Trustees, 
did he retain any of the books of the Board of Trustees in his 
possession ? A. I cannot say that ; I cannot answer that. 

Q. Why can't you answer it? A. Because I don't know. 

Q. Do you remember that he retained in his possession the 
book containing the minutes of the Trustees' meetings ? A. 
Mr. Pearsall delivered to me, I think, the minute book of the 
Trustees' meetings. 

Q. Did he retain it in his possession after he ceased to be 
Trustee ? A. I don't know how long after. 

Q. You don't know how long he kept it? A. He had it af- 
ter he published a letter, I think. 

Q. Did it afterwards come into your possession ? A. It did. 

Q. How did you get possession of it ? A. I sent to him 
asking him to let me have i*. 

Q. Did you send Mr. Bogers, the sexton, to Mr. Pearsall? 
A. Yery likely I did ; he would be a handy man for me to 
send. 

Q. Did Mr. Pearsall send word back to you by Mr. Bogers 
that he would not let you have the book unless you sent a 
written order and promise to return the book ? A. I think 
he did. 

Q. Did you then send a written order for this book ? A. I 
think I did. 

Q. And did you in the order promise to return the book the 
same day ? A. Yery likely I did ; when lie sent 

Q. (Interrupting). Is that the order? (handing paper to wit- 
ness.) A. That is my handwriting, I don't know what the 
order is ; (reading) " If Mr. Pearsall will send me the minute 
book of the Board of Trustees, by Mr. Bogers, the sexton, I 



484 



promise to return it to him by the same bearer to-day, April 
3d ;" that is correct. 

Q. Did you return it ? A. I did not, because Mr. Kogers 
brought me the word 

Q. I don't ask the reason ? A. I will give the reason — that 
I need not. 

Q. Did you return the book that you promised ? A. I did 
not, because he sent me word that I need not ; the messenger 
told me who brought the book. 

Q. Still you wrote him that you would send it ? A. Not af- 
ter he returned it with that message. 

Q. Now, can you explain why Mr. Pearsall would ask for a 
written order promising to return the book, and then tell you 
that you need not return it? A. He had not entered up the 
last meeting of the Board of Trustees which was held on 
March 31st ; he wanted to write that up ; he had in the mean- 
time after my first request for the book written it up, and then 
he sent me word that he did not want it any longer. 

Q. How do you know these facts ? A. The messenger 
brought the book and the report at the same time. 

Q. What report ? A. The report that I have just given you 
that Mr. Pearsall said he did not want it returned then ; he 
had written up the minutes. 

Q. Were you present at the Tabernacle on the 17th of Feb- 
ruary, 1879, when subscriptions were asked by Mr. Kimball to 
pay off the debt ? A. I was. 

Q. Did you sign the name of any person to a subscription 
card without the authority of any such person ? A. I did not. 

Q. Did you place the name or names of any person or per- 
sons on the subscription cards on that day ? A. Not without 
their authority. 

Q. Do you know Captain Latham ? A. I do. 

Q. Did you write Captain Latham's name on a card — a sub- 
scription card ? A. I did. 

Q. Is that your handwriting, sir? (hands witness paper). A. 
It is, and he authorized it. 

Q. (Eeading). " Captain Latham, $500." A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was Captain Latham there that morning ? A. He was 
not. 



485 



Q. Did he authorize you to give his name for $500? A. He 
authorized a subscription, and I as secretary of the meeting 
filled out a great many of the cards. 

Q. When did Captain Latham authorize you to subscribe 
$500? A. Some days previous to that he subscribed $500 in 
the presence of Dr. Talmage aud myself in reply to the pastor's 
solicitation, 

Q. Did he authorize you to place his name on a subscription 
card ? A. I placed his name there by virtue of my authority 
as secretary of that meeting ; as when all the other names 
were called out on the other side of the house, I wrote the 
names on the blank cards and handed them up to the desk. 

Q. Have you ever collected that $500 subscription ? A. I 
think not. 

Q. Have you ever asked Captain Latham for it ? A. I have 
not. 

. Q. Do you know that any one has asked Captain Latham for 
that $500 ? A. I do not know of my own knowledge. 

Q. Was John H. Cassidy formerly an elder in the Tabernacle 
church ? A. He was. 

Q. Was he present on the 17th of February when that sub- 
scription was taken ? A. He was not. 

Q. Did Mr. Cassidy authorize you to announce that he 
would subscribe $1,000 toward the payment of that debt? A. 
He did. 

Q. Where did he do it ? A. In his orifice in New York. 
Q. When ? A. Some clays previous. 

Q. Was any one else present? A. Dr. Talmage was present. 

Q. Wasn't the understanding between you and Mr. Cassidy, 
in the presence of Dr. Talmage, that when the whole debt was 
paid, except $1,000, which was due him, Mr. Cassidy, on a 
bond he held, he would cancel that bond ? A. Nothing was 
said about a bond. 

Q. There was no such understanding between you? A. 
Nothing was said about the bond. 

Q. Did Mr. Cassidy subscribe $1,000 unconditionally ? A. 
He did. 

Q. And was it announced by you in the presence of Mr. 
Talmage that Mr. Cassidy subscribed $1,000 ? A. It was. 



486 



Q. Have you ever collected that $1,000 from Mr. Cassidy? 
A. I have not. 

Q. Do you know whether this has been collected ? A. I 
don't think it has. 

Q. Have you ever asked Mr. Cassidy for it ? A. I have not. 

Q. Do you know whether he has been asked for it ? A. I 
think likely he has — not of my own knowledge. 

Q. Is that your handwriting ? (Handing paper to witness.) 
A. It is. 

Mr. Ckosby — (reading.) " Formerly an elder in this church ; 
John H. Cassidy, Orange, N. J. ; amount $1,000." 

Q. Were you President of the Board of Trustees of the 
Tabernacle? A. When? 

Q. Were you ever President ? A. I am now. 

Q. You are now the President of the Board of Trustees of 
the Tabernacle ? A. I am now. 

Q. How long have you been President of the board? A. 
Since last April. 

Q. Were you ever President of the Board of Trustees pre- 
vious to last April ? A. I was. 

Q. During what year ? A. I do not remember ; I was Pres- 
ident in 1875—1 think until June, 1876 ; I was President I 
think in lb74, and in 1873, perhaps 1872. 

Q. Did you ever while you were a member of the Board of 
Trustees hear the propriety of getting life insurance policies 
on the life of Dr. Talmage discussed ? A. I did. 

Q. Did the Board of Trustees ever secure policies of insur- 
ance on the life of Dr. Talmage at any time when you were a 
member of the board? A. They did for collateral security. 

Q. When was that? A. I do not remember the date. 

Q. Can you approximate the date ? A. I can tell you the 
exact date when I get the minute book here. 

Q. Can you approximate the date now ? A. Well, it was 
1874 or 1875, probably. 

Q. Can you tell me Avhat amounts were secured upon the 
life of Dr. Talmage ? A. I think it was two policies of $20,- 
000 each. 

Q. For what purposes were these policies secured ? A. In 
the event of Dr. Talmage's death that the debt might be 



487 



handled more easily ; with more especial reference to that— 
no, I correct that ; I do not think the bonds were then issued ; 
it was more especially in reference to the debt outside of the 
mortgage debt. 

Q. Who held that debt outside of the mortgage debt ? A. I 
cannot say now. 

Q. Do you remember any one person to whom the church 
was indebted outside of the mortgage debt ? A. T do not re- 
member at that time — at the time the policies were issued ; 
the policies were issued at the suggestion and instigation 
of the Treasurer, John F. Talmage. 

Q. What companies were these policies secured in ? A. 
The New York Life and Equitable I think. 

Q. Who secured these policies ? A. I did. 

Q. Did you receive a commission for this ? A. I always 
receive a commission on my business. 

Q. Did you receive a commission on these policies ? A. 
On all my business I always receive a commission. 

Q. Had you told the Board of Trustees A. (Interrupt- 

ing.) If you should get insured with me, I should get a com- 
mission on your insurance. 

Q. Did you tell the Board of Trustees, or any member of 
the Board of Trustees that you would get the whole matter 
arranged at the lowest possible rates and take no commission V 
A. Never. 

Q. Or did you use words to that effect ? A. No, sir ; no 
words to that effect, directly or indirectly ; I do not do busi- 
ness for fun. 

Q. Did you not intend to give the members of the Board of 
Trustees, or any of them, the impression that by leaving the 
whole matter in your hands that they would get the policies 
at the lowest possible expense? A. They never got any such 
impression from me. 

Q. Nor any of thein ? A. Nor any of them. 

Q. How much did you receive ? A. That is my business 
and not yours ; I might have told you that sooner, perhaps, 
but I tell you now. 

Q. These policies were secured for the benefit and interest 
of the church were they not ? A. They were. 



188 



Q. You made your commission out of them? A. I have 
told you that once ; I appeal to the Moderator that the 
questions may not be asked a second time. 

Presbytery adjourned. 

J. MILTON GBEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



Apkil 16th, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 16, at 3 p. M. 

Mr. B. B. Corwin, was recalled as witness, and at the re- 
quest of Mr. Millard, the cross-examination was temporarily 
suspended, and the direct-examination was resumed. 

Mr. Corwin testified as follows : 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. Are you a member of the Brooklyn Tabernacle? A. 
I am. 

Q. Are you President of the Board of Trustees? A. I am. 

Q. How long have you been connected with the church, 
over which Dr. Talmage is now pastor ? A. I think twenty 
years. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage ever explain to you what he meant by 
a free church ? A. He did. 

Q. When ? A. I think it was in the spring of 1869. 

Q. What did he say ? A. He said he had a great desire to 
have a free church. 

Q. Anything farther, that he said to you about that? A. 
I replied, I did not think much of a free church; he said he 
probably was not thinking of the kind of free church I was 
thinking of ; I told him I did not know what his kind was ; my 
idea of a free church was that my wife could sit in one place 
and my children in another, and I could sit somewhere else ; 
I would not attend such a church ; he said that was no free 
church at all ; a free church must preserve a home feeling ; 
the pews must be assigned to the regular occupants, just the 
same as if they paid for them ; that if God had given him 
power to attract people to hear him preach the Gospel, he did 
not want to have them have to consult their pocketbook, but 
he wanted them to come and pay what they could. 

Q. Was anything said at that time to Dr. Talmage about 



489 



salary? A. He remarked, during the same conversation, that 
if he had his idea carried out — he had thought of it for years 
— he had rather preach in such a church as that, where every 
body could pay what they could, than to preach in a pew 
rental church where they were obliged to pay a certain figure, 
or not come at all, for $20,000. 

Q. He had rather preach in such a church for what ? A. 
For $2,000 ; that is rather than preach in a church where the 
the pews were rented, for $20,000. 

Q, What was the first step taken by the church towards car. 
rying this idea out ? A. I was appointed a committee with 
Mr. James M. Rowan to solicit the congregation to receive 
the subscriptions towards the support of the Gospel in such 
a church, as was contemplated ; this is the book. 

Q. When was it? A. This book is dated March, 1870. 
Mr. Millard — We offer that book in evidence ; the book is 
marked "Defendant's Exhibit I," of this date. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage ever write a letter to the Board of 
Trustees, relinquishing his salary? A. He did. 
Q. When? A. I think it was in April, 1870. 
Q. What was done with that letter ? A. It was placed on 
the minutes of the Board of Trustees of the church. 

Q. Read the letter, please? A. (Reading.) " Special Meet- 
" ing of the Board of Trustees, held April 5th, 1870. The 
" following letter received from Rev. T. DeWitt Talmage : To 
" the Board of Trustees of the Central Presbyterian Church, 
" Brooklyn : Gentlemen, — I hereby relinquish you from all 
" obligation to pay me any more salary than the income of 
" the church may warrant after the first day of August next, 
" notwithstanding anything that may have been agreed upon 
" in my call to the church. T. DeWITT TALMAGE." 

Q. What salary was Dr. Talmage receiving at that time ? 
A. $7,000. 

Q. When were you first elected a Trustee? A. In 1870. 
Q. Do you remember the month, sir ? A. I do not remem- 
ber the month. 

Q. No matter; have you remained as Trustee up to the 
present time ? A. I was elected April 25th, 1870. 
62 



490 



Q. Repeated? A. An interregnum from May, 1876, to 
April, 1878. 

Q. During all the rest of the time you have acted as Trus- 
tee? A. I have. 

Q. "When was the first Tabernacle dedicated ? A. Septem- 
ber, 1870. 

Q. Was the pastor's plan for a free church adopted by the 
Board of Trustees ? A. It was. 

Q. When? A. (Beading.) "Special Meeting of the Board 
" of Trustees of the Central Presbyterian Church, held on 
" Tuesday evening, April 4th, 1870. Resolved, That the in- 
" structions given to the clerk at an informal meeting of -this 
" board in regard to the reading of certain papers upon even- 
" ings that pews and sittings were assigned in the Tabernacle 
" to pew holders and applicants, copies of which are entered 
" on the following pages, be ratified and confirmed." 

Q. What is that you have just read from ? A. The minutes 
of the Board of Trustees ; a special meeting of the Board of 
Trustees of the of the Central Presbyterian Church, held on 
Tuesday evening, April 4th, 1870. 

Q. I will ask you if this statement was afterwards ratified 
by the Board of Trustees ? A. I have just read the ratifica- 
tion ; the statement which I read I will read, if you wish. 

Q. Yes, sir? A. (Reading) : " The condition is, in selecting 
" sittings in this building, they are selected only for the use 
" and uccupancy of the persons selecting them, with their 
" families, and so long as they attend the services, and occupy 
" them, and comply with the rules and regulations now gov- 
" erning this society, or any rules or regulations of whatever 
" nature that may be adopted hereafter, will be entitled to oc- 
" cupy the seat or seats, and if not used by them, or they do not 
" comply with said rules and regulations, then they forfeit, 
" and the seats return back to the society, and will be appro- 
" priated to other occupants. The gospel is to be supported 
" in this society by subscription, and it is expected all will 
" want to help. As soon as convenient, the committee will 
" call upon the congregation, to have you subscribe the 
" amount you will give annually. If any desire to give the 
" amount this evening, the treasurer is present, and will re- 
" ceive your names." 



491 



Q. Give the names of those who composed the Board of 
Trustees, at that meeting? A. (Reading): " Piesent, at that 
" meeting, Mr. Andrew Smith, D. F. Wells, William H. Mars- 
" ton, James M. Rowan, D. H. Way, Frederick Sherwood, B. 
" R. Corwin, T. E. Pearsall." 

Q. Is that the Mr. Pearsall who was a witness here ? A. Mr. 
Thomas E. Pearsall ; yes, sir. 

Q. Do the records show that he was present at that meet- 
ing? A. He was present at that meeting. 

Q. Was the plan adopted a financial success ? A. It was. 
Q. Just state the result ? A. The year commenced August 
1st, 1870; from August 1st to August 1st, 1871, there was a 
surplus of $1,541.82; from February 1st, 1871, to February 
1st, 1872, a surplus of $504.80. 

Q. When was the church burned ? A. I have made a mis- 
take ; from August 1st, 1870, to August 1st, 1871, there 
was a surplus of $1,541.82 ; from May 1st, 1871, to May 1st 
1872, a surplus of $504.80; then the fiscal year was 
changed to February 1st, and from February 1st, 1871, 
to February 1st, 1872, a deficiency of $451.02 ; in the disburse- 
ments of this year there was $1,116.16 appropriated to the 
sufferers of the Chicago fire ; February 1st, 1872, to February 
1st, 1873, a deficiency of $77.54; this year the church was 
burned — the 22d of December, 1872 ; we therefore had two 
months' rent in the disbursements of that year, which ac- 
counted for the $77.54 deficiency ; February 1st, 1873, to Feb- 
ruary 1st, 1874, there was a deficiency of $8,284.47 ; we were 
that year in the Academy of Music ; our church was in ashes ; 
we were building ; nobody had any seat, and we paid to the 
Directors of the Academy of Music that year, $5,450 rent; 
from February 1st, 1873, to February 1st, 1874, a surplus of 
$6,977.88 ; the amount raised in the four years, from February 
1st, 1871, to February 1st, 1875, for current expenses was 
$74,873.14 ; the amount disbursed during the same length of 
time for current expenses, was $76,708.29; the amount raised 
in that time — we had built two churches in the time — the 
amount raised for construction account was $73,458.62 ; the 
amouut disbursed in that time for construction account, $115,- 
444.53. 



492 



Q. What salary were you paying Dr. Talmage at that time ? 
A. $7,000. 

Q. Did you know of any offer being made to Dr. Talmage 
prior to the burning of the Tabernacle, to auction off the pews? 
A. Mr. Wells, one of the pew committee, said to him, " If you 
" will allow us to put an auctioneer on the platform, we will 
" pay you $20,000 a year, as easy as $7,000." 

Q. What did Dr. Talmage reply? A. " When you engage 
an auctioneer, you must engage a new pastor." 

Q. When was the present Tabernacle built ? A. During 
the years of 1872, 1873 and 1874. 

Q. When dedicated? A. February 22, 1874. 

Q. Was the free church plan, adopted in the old Taber- 
nacle, carried forward to the new ? A. It was. 

Q. Have you any record of the action of the pew committee 
on this matter ? A. I have a record of the action of the pew 
committee, and I have a record of the remarks made by the 
pastor on the day of the dedication. 

Q. Kead them both, please ? A. (Beading) : " Eegular 
" meeting of the Board of Trustees, held at the residence of 
" Mr. Corwin, February 15th, 1875. The pew committee, 
" presented a form of pew assignment and of the regulations 
" which were adopted." The form is here, if you wish to have 
it read. 

Q. If you please ? A. (Beading) : " Pews and sittings in 
" this church will be assigned for the term of one year from 
" the quarter beginning February 1st, at the expiration of 
" w r hich time the same revert again to the Trustees. Prompt 
" notice should be given of intention on the part of those 
" holding seats to vacate the same, that other applicants may 
" be accommodated. Failure to occupy the pew for four Sab- 
" baths in succession will be deemed evidence of the sittings 
" having been surrendered, unless notice to the contrary is 
" conveyed to the Session. Any member changing residence 
" will confer a favor by giving prompt notice of the fact. As 
" no pew rentals are exacted, all the expense necessary for the 
" support and maintainance of the church must be defrayed by 
" voluntary contributions. Each member of the congregation 
" is expected therefore to contribute to the fullest extent of his 



493 



" or her means toward this end, in order that the Trustees may 
" have some assurance of the prospective income of tlie 
" church, by which to meet its running expenses. All contrib- 
uting members name an annual subscription, and pay the 
" same either by quarterly or weekly installments. Members 
" must be in their seats ten minutes before the hour of ser- 
" vice." 

Q. Were those regulations sent to every applicant for sit- 
tings ; was that your principle? A. It was; I am looking for 
a moment ; I have the pastor's remarks on dedication day ; I 
have them here somewhere ; I have a few other papers, but I 
can give the words; he said the Tabernacle would be a free 
church ; it had worked well in the past, and should work well 
in the future; expected everybody to give what they felt able 
to give. 

Q. Who was the Chairman of the pew committee at that 
time, when those regulations were adopted? A. Mr. Thomas 
E. Pearsall. 

Q. After the dedication of the present Tabernacle, did the 
Board of Trustees request Dr. Talmage to adopt the pew ren- 
tal system ? A. There was one such request made. 

Q. What was Dr. Talmage's reply ? A. The Board of Trus- 
tees felt, and I believe properly felt, that they would receive 
more money for less work, if the pew rental system was 
adopted ; they requested the pastor to allow them to adopt 
that plan ; I think it was in the early part of 187 f^, or the 
latter part of 1874 ; it was after the present church had been 
completed. 

Q. That was the Board of Trustees that resigned, was it ? 
A. Well, not entirely so, sir ; there were some members 
that had left previously ; they addressed a letter to that effect 
to the pastor, and he replied to them ; do you wish his reply ? 

Q. If you please? A. He replied that he had one favor to 
ask of them ; if they would continue to run the church accord- 
ing to the present plan — the voluntary contributions — for six 
months longer, he would resign at the end of that time, go to 
Europe ; there should be no jar, no loss, no misunderstand- 
ing ; in the mean time the church could look around for some- 
body who would preach to them and conduct their services 



494 



on tlie pew rental system, and everything would be amicably 
and pleasantly settled. 
By Mr. MoCullagh : 

Q. Was that a letter from Dr. Talmage ? A. It was. 

Q. Can that letter be produced ? A. I cannot find it ; I 
have looked for it faithfully; it was some years ago. 
By Mr. Millakd : 

Q. What prompted the Board of Trustees to make this re- 
quest to Dr. Talmage ? A. I think the chief promptings — 
and I think my own feelings were those of the rest- -were that 
there was more money and less work ; I wish to say here that 
we had such hard work for the past four years that I felt it 
was time to give us a little let up. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage refuse to comply with the request of 
the board? A. Positively did. 

Q. What has been Dr. Talmage's position as to the disposi- 
tion of the pews in his church from that time? A. I wish to 
add, further, he positively refused to comply with the request 
of the board, pleasantly, courteously, but firmly, and the 
board positively refused to accede to his request, and said, 
" We will put tire to tire, and at it again ;" and so we have 
been since. 

Q. What has been his position, as to the disposition of the 
pews, from that time down to the present? A. Always the 
same ; he has never changed an iota, as far as I know. 

Q. Has he invariably declined to adopt the p3w rental sys- 
tem in his church ? A. Always. 

Q. Do you remember Dr. Talmage, in the early summer of 
1877, making a request to you and John F. Talmage to secure 
to the parents of the children of the Sabbath school seats in 
the Tabernacle ? A. Mr. Talmage requested John F. Talmage 
and myself to visit the parents of the children of the Sunday 
school who had no church home, ascertain if any among them 
had no church home, and invite them to meet him, naming 
tw f o nights in the week at the church, with the pew com- 
mitttee, when they should be assigned pews and sittings with- 
out money and without price. 

Q. Did you comply with that request ? A. We did not. 

Q. Why not ? A. We did not have time. 



495 



Q. Did Dr. Talmage take any further action in the matter ? 
A. He did. 

Q. What was it ? A After the summer vacation — that was 
previous to the vacation — he came into the Sunday school in 
the afternoon, and requested all the officers and teachers to 
meet him at the close of Sunday school; they did; he then 
stated the same thing to those who went there, requesting them 
to make a canvass of every family represented in their classes, 
see if any of them were without church privileges, church as- 
sociations, or sittings in any church, and if they found any, 
bring them during the next week — nights were named — I think 
Tuesday and Wednesday or Tuesday and Thursday — to the 
church and offer them sittings without price ; some present 
said that they had sittings to spare in their pews, more than 
they really occupied, and they would surrender those sittings 
which had been assigned to them for this purpose. 

Q. Was that request carried out ? A. It was. 

Q. Just state the result ? A. I cannot tell to what extent; 
I know that the teachers complied with the request, made a 
canvass ; I know that the church was opened for the purpose 
of receiving parties who wished sittings, and that sittings 
were assigned in consequence of that canvass. 

Q. State in a general way, Major, the manner of assigning 
pews in the Tabernacle ? A. If a person wants a pew in the 
Tabernacle, they make application to some member of the 
Board of Trustees, the plan is shown to them, the pews are 
shown to them according to the number of sittings which they 
want, and they are assigned those sittings ; there is no par- 
ticular formality about it except at the opening of the year. 

Q. I would like to ask you, if that is the circular that you 
spoke of, and if so just explain it, and all of them ? A. This 
is the circular adapted for the assignment of pews for 1876. 

" Mr. I. W. Hathaway, Assistant Secretary— Sir : The under- 
" signed wishes to secure for the year commencing February 
" 1, 1876, two sittings in pew No. 630, and hereby agrees to 
" pay for the support of the gospel all I can afford, signed," 
name and address given. This is th$ form of an assignment. 
That is the form of application, and this is the form of assign- 
ment. 



496 



" Bkooklyn, February 23, 1876. 

Mr. Hall: 

"Dear Sir. — In accordance with your application, dated 
" February 2, 1876, the Board of Trustees hereby assign you 
" two sittings in pew 570, for one year, from February 1, 1876 
" subject however to the accompanying regulations. 

" Respectfully yours, 

" FREDERICK W. BAKER." 

I say here that that is Mr. Hathaway's handwriting ; he 
was authorized to sign Mr. Baker's name ; then, on the other 
side, subject to accompanying regulations respecting the 
assignment of pews which I have just read. 

Q. ire those the official applications, assignments and re- 
ceipts of the pews in the Brooklyn Tabernacle, adopted by the 
Board of Trustees ? A. I find another form of assignment; 
which was used in 1877, which read like this : "Application to 
" Pew Committee. Gentlemen, the undersigned wishes to se- 
" cure for the year commencing February 1, 1877, sittings 
" in pew No. and hereby agrees to pay for the support of 
" the gospel, dollars, payable quarterly in advance ; ' 
and the response was that year simply a variation 
It was sent by the pew committee. " Enclosed find applica- 
" tions for the reassignment of your pew, for the year com- 
" mencing February 1, 1877. Please fill up the same, en- 
" closing in the within envelope, and mail immediately. If 
" you feel warranted in increasing your subscription for the 
" support of the gospel during the current year it will be of 
" great service. Respectfully yours. Signed by the Pew Com- 
" mittee." Here is another form in this : " You are cordially 
" invited to meet the pew committee on evening, at 9 o'clock, 
" to secure sittings for the year commencing February 1.'' 
This is the notice adopted subsequent to that year : 

" We have to request immediate attention, so that we may 
" accommodate other new applicants. If no response is made 
" on your part, your seat will be reassigned without further 
" notice. Respectfully yours, Pew Committee." 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. These are about the same ? A. All about the same ; then 
this is a notice which the Treasurer sends out: " Mr. A., B. and 



497 



" C, Brooklyn, for the support of the gospel, Brooklyn Taber- 
" nacle, Eev. T. DeWitt Talmage, pastor, quarter due at so 
" much, received payment." 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. That completes the papers relating to that subject ? A. 
That is all I have, sir. 

Q. Is there any thing in those papers that refers to the 
dollar question in the disposal of the pews? A. Nothing. 

Q. Are the notices, given by Dr. Talmage, and have they 
been from time to time from the platform of the Brooklyn 
Tabernacle, in harmony with those papers, applications, 
adopted by the Trustees ? A. On February 22, when the 
present church was dedicated, the pastor said, while the 
Tabernacle was a free church they were assigned the pews 
without reference to the dollar question, the people giving 
what they felt they could ; the plan had worked well in the 
past, and should do so in the future. 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. Is that the notice read ? A. That is the wording taken 
from the stenographer's report, as reported in the Eagle the 
next day. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. Did you read among those papers a circular issued by 
the pew committee for 1877 ? A. I did, sir. 

Q. Was that circular ratified by the Board of Trustees ? A. 
There was no further action by the Board of Trustees sincfl 
the action which I called your attention to. 

Q. Who was clerk of the board at the time ? A. Mr. Pear- 
sall. 

Q. The same party that has been a witness on this trial ? 
A. Mr. Thomas E. Pearsall. 

Q. At the time the new Tabernacle was dedicated, Febru- 
ary 22d, was it publicly announced that the church was free 
from debt ? A. Mr. Ives said, as reported in the Eagle the 
next day in the stenographer's report by Mr. Walton, that in 
round numbers the church cost $100,000.00 ; $65,000.00 had 
been provided for leaving a balance of $35,000.00 to be pro- 
vided for here now ; we all knew that there was a mortgage \m 
63 



the church at that time, and did not propose to raise the mort- 
gaged debt. 

Q. You say that was published ? A. Yes,, sir. 

Q. In the Eagle? A. In the Eag'e, the next day. 

Q. Has the free church plan of the Tabernacle proyed a 
shocking financial failure No, sir ; I just gave the facts of 
the plan : nothing shocking about that I think ; the deficiency 
when we were in the Academy of Music was $5,450.00 rent; we 
had no opportunity to get at our people ; I wondered at their 
staying as they did ; sometimes they sat away up in the top 
loft, and sometimes stood out in the vestibule ; nobody had 
any preference there ; that was free enough, and yet for four- 
teen months we had to stand that kind of work ; we had noth- 
ing but a Sunday-school and prayer-meeting going on reg- 
ularly. 

Q, Can you give the financial results — I think you have 
given them already — of each year of the Tabernacle to No- 
vember 4th, lb76, the date of the publication of the August let- 
ter ? A. I have given that in the main. 

Q. Repeat them, if you please, so far as you have stated 
them ? A. Here is the regulation : this I read mostly from the 
Board of Trustees, although it is in the Treasurer's handwrit- 
ing here ; part of it is taken from the book ; the first Taber- 
nacle, August 1st, 1870, to August 1st. 1871 — that is the 
time when the subscriptions commenced — was $1:-,S99.S2 re- 
ceipts ; disbursements. 817,358 ; May 1st, 1871, to May 1st, 
1872, receipts, $16,717: disbursements. $113,2 12.20 ; February 
1st, 1871, to February 1st, 1872, $21,675.56 receipts ; disburse- 
ments, $22,126.55 ; deficiency, 14)1.02 is from the Chicago 
fire of $L11C36 : February 1st, 1872, to February 1st, 1S73, re- 
ceipts, $17,793.71; disbursements, $17,871.25 ; deficiency, $77.- 
54 : the church was burned up December 22, 1S72, and this rec- 
ord goes to February 1st, 1873, so that it is over a month's rent 
of the Academy of Music in the disbursements ; February 1st, 
1^73, to February 1871 — entirely in the Academy of Music — 
receipts, $13,179.70 ; disbursements, $21,464.17 ; the receipts 
fell off, and the disbursements increased by one item of 
$5,450, paid for rent of the Academy of Music ; February 1st, 
1874, to February 1st, 1875 — and that covers the year of the 



499 



statement I believe — receipts. $22,224.17 ; disbursements, $15,- 
246.29. 

Q. Up to November 4th, 1876, were you President of the 
Board of Trustees ? A. I was President of the Board of 
Trustees up to June 1st, 1876. 

Q. Did you ever pay, up to this time, one per cent, per 
month for the use of money to meet current expenses of the 
Brooklyn Tabernacle ? A. There was no occasion to do it ; 
never did, for no occasion ; disbursements, expenses, current 
expenses, or anything else ; never paid one per cent, per month 
for anything ; never heard of it until I heard of it in the Au- 
gustine letter. 

Q. How do you explain your endorsement on the blank ap- 
plication made for that purpose, which Mr. Hathaway intro- 
duced in his evidence ? A. Mr. Hathaway was the agent for 
the Board of Trustees — assistant secretary of the Board of 
Trustees ; where there was any advice required he would bring 
it into the board — he would bring the applications into the 
board ; here is a sample of the applications ; if there was no 
necessity of asking advice, Mr. Hathaway would assign the 
pews without advice ; for instance, there is an application for 
$150 (holding up paper) ; Mr. Hathaway don't want any ad- 
vice on that ; there is an application for $30 ; there is an ap- 
plication for $75 — offering $75 ; there is an appplication offer- 
ing $50 ; there is an application offering $40 ; there is an ap- 
plination offering $85 ; there is an application offering $25 ; 
there is an application offering $15 ; there is an application 
offering $12 ; that is an application offering $6 ; there is an 
application offering nothing; and the fact shows that Mr. 
Hathaway was satisfied to deal with those applicants without 
any advice from the Board of Trustees ; he didn't ask for any, 
and there is no endorsement on any of them ; now, there may 
have been some applicants which he thought he had better 
advise about; for instance, if William H. Yanderbilt had 
applied for a seat in the Tabernacle, and offered $5 a year, 
Mr. Hathaway would probably advise with the Trustees be- 
fore giving him a sitting anywhere, even a camp stool, know- 
ing he was able to pay more; if a man having a good bank 
account, offered fifty cents a year, Mr. Hathaway would not 



500 



feel justified in giving that man his sitting, because it was the 
plan that everybody should pay what they could ; if a man 
having a sittihg in another church made an application for a 
seat in our church, as a matter of convenience, Mr. Hath- 
away would probably refer that matter to the Board of Trus- 
tees ; that would come up in the pile of applications like this ; 
the Trustees would say, Hathaway being present and making 
his representation, he knowing the parties, and haviug come 
in contact with them, Hathaway would say : "That man offers 
so much ; it is crowding other people out, perhaps ;" the Board 
of Trustees say : " Not allowed." 

Q. You endorsed it? A. Yes. sir; by order of the Board 
of Trustees ; whatever they said I was simply the mouthpiece, 
signed it in pencil ; Hathaway took it up and and acted on it; 
so with all those applications ; so if a man is contumacious — 
not a contumacious witness, but a contumacious applicant, 
and Mr. Hathaway had met him, and he had. seen he didn't 
care for anything but his own convenience, he would make 
these reports to the Board of Trustees ; the Board of Trustees 
acting for the interest of the church, judging whether that ap- 
plicant was a proper person to receive a sitting, would decide 
what instructions to give Hathaway ; the application would be 
handed to me, I would endorse whatever the Board of Trus- 
tees said in pencil, sign it with my own initials or my name,jso 
that Hathaway might understand it, and pass it around in that 
way ; expediency was the only method of that service. 

Q. Was there any understanding in the Board of Trustees, 
that certain applications should be refused ? A. If the}' were 
members of other churches, I think that was an understanding 
we had to learn from experience ; we found that people were 
making a matter of convenience of us for rainy days and 
" sich," and if there was a man applied who was an officer in 
another church — and we had such instances ; I bear in mind 
oue ; a man came up and got his assignment ; he named no 
money, but I met him at a restaurant and he stuck $10 in my 
hand ; he is a very respectable man, and I supposed that 
meant for three months, that he probably wanted to pay $40 a 
year ; I didn't have anything to say to him ; I met him again 
and he said : " Oh, I meant that for a year, because you know 



501 



I am an officer in another church, and my daughters want to 
go to the Tabernacle as a matter of convenience ; I want a sit- 
ting there, and if that will help you out, why, it is all right ;" 
" Well," I said, " that won't help us out much, here is your 
money back." 

Q. You considered it A. (Interrupting.) We did not 

propose to have our church made a matter of convenience for 
people who didn't wish to come and worship with us. 

Q. And you did not consider that would be carrying out the 
free church plan ? A. Not by any manner of means. 

Q. Let me ask you, Major, were your endorsements only 
cases by order of the Board of Trustees? A. In every single 
instance by order of the Board of Trustees for Mr. Hathaway's 
guidance and instruction. 

(Mr. Millard here stated, that in regard to the fourth speci- 
fication relating to Mr. Hathaway, the counsel for the defence 
proposed to hold that in suspense for a while, and so had 
nothing more to ask the witness. There was an understanding 
between counsel to that effect. 
Cross-examined by Mr. Ceosby : 

Q. You testified yesterday that Captain Lathan had author- 
ized you to subscribe $500 for him at the time that the sub- 
scriptions were made for the payment of the debt February 
17th, 1878, I think ; now, sir, I would ask you, were you not 
present in court at the Gelston trial, when Captain Lathan 
swore that he did not authorize you or any person to make 
any subscription ? A. I was. 

Q. Did you hear him testify to that effect? A. I did. 

Q. You are the intimate and confidential friend of Dr. 
Talmage, are you not? A. I would not like to swear to that, 
sir. 

Q. Well, sir, you refuse to swear to that? A. I don't know 
how intimate I am with him myself. 

Q. I did nob ask you how intimate ; I asked you if you were 
the intimate and confidential friend of Dr. Talmage ? A. I am 
on friendly terms with him. 

(Question repeated.) A. I am on friendly terms with Dr. 
Talmage. 

Q. Do you refuse to answer my question ? A. How inti- 



502 



mate I am and how confidential I am with him, he is the best 
judge. 

Q. Then, yon do not wish to answer my question ? A. I 
am answering it just as far as I feel I can answer it, sir. 

Q. Are you deeply interested in the result of this trial ? A. 
Not one penny. 

Q. It makes no difference to you which way this trial goes ? 
A. Not a copper. 

Q. It won't effect your feelings in any way, which ever way 
it goes ? A. I am talking in a financial way. 

Q. I was not at all. A. "What are you talking — spiritually? 

Q. No, sir ; I ask you whether you are deeply interested^ 
personally, in the result of this trial ? A. Do you mean inter- 
ested in the result to the church ? 

Q. No, you — yourself. A. I am simply interested in having 
the truth developed, and his righteousness shine forth as the 
light, and his judgment as the noon day. 

Q. Then, you are deeply interested ? A. To that extent, I 
am. 

Q. Is there no personal interest ? A. To that extent ; 1 
will confine myself to that passage of the scriptures which 
comes to my mind which expresses my feeling. 

Q. It will make no difference to you whichever way this trial 
results ? A. I want to see the truth triumphant. 

Q. You refuse to answer that question ? A. That is ray 
interest. 

Q. That is not merely a personal interest ; that is a general 
interest ? A. That is a personal interest to me. 

Q. That is the only answer you will give, is it ? A. That is 
my personal interest in this trial. 

Q. Question repeated. A. Ask another question and per- 
haps I will answer it then. 

Q. Do you care which way the judgment goes ? A. Let 
the truth triumph, and let those who are not true go to the 
earth. 

Q. That is your earnest wish, is it ? A. That is my earnest 
wish ; I believe it, as I know my heart and am in the presence 
of this court ; I remember what this court is, sir, and I was 
never in a more solemn place, according to my oath. 



503 



Q. I am very glad that you feel so ; now, sir, we come to 
another subject that we were on last evening; at the time that 
these insurance policies were placed upon the life of Dr. Tal- 
mage, was not the church largely in debt ? A. It was in debt ; 
there was an indebtedness against the church; that was the 
reason of placing the insurance policies. 

Q. That was the object of insuring the pastor's life, to 
secure the creditors of the church ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was not the church, then, financially embarrassed, so as 
to make it necessary to get rid of the floating indebtedness by 
giving bonds? A. That was simply putting the indebtedness 
from one pocket into another. 

Q. That was the case though, was it not ? A. We issued 
the bonds for the floating indebtedness. 

Q. Did the old Board of Trustees, or any of them, so far as 
you know, know that you were making over $500 out of this 
insurance ? A. I don't know what they knew; I never made 
$500 out of the church in my life, nor $400, $300, nor $200, nor 
$100, nor one dollar. 

Q. I ask if the Board of Trustees, or any of them, knew 
that you were making it out of the church ? A. It was no 
business of the church what the insurance companies paid me. 

Q. Did you ever tell them you made $500 out of it ? A. It 
was no business of the church what the insurance company 
paid me. 

Q. Will you please answer my question? A. I have an- 
swered it, sir. 

Q. Did you ever tell any of the Trustees that you had re- 
ceived $500, or any sum on this matter? A. I wish to state to 
this court that I know just exactly how to answer a question 
that relates to my private business ; I have had dealings with 
members of this church, and they know what my intentions 
are, but I shall not 

Q. We will come now to your direct-examination yesterday ; 
you were asked when and where was your interview and with 
whom in regard to your agreement with the Christian at Work ; 
you answer, "The first interview that had any shape or bear- 
ing on my conduct was with Mr. Remington at Saratoga ;" do 
you mean to intimate by that answer that it was through Mr. 



504 



Remington's exertion and desire that you became connected 
with the Christian at Work ? A. That was the first interview 
that I had that gave me any serious intentions of connecting 
myself with the Christian at Work. 

Q. Do you know what led to that interview on Mr. Reming- 
ton's part ? A. I do not. 

Q. Do you not know, when Mr. Remington visited you at 
Saratoga, that he did it at Dr. Talmage's request? A. I think 
he did it at Mr. Hallock's request. 

Q. Do you know that he did it also at Dr. Talmage's re- 
quest ? A. I do not know ; I don't think he # did. 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage telegraphed him, wishing 
him to do it? A. I think Mr. Hallock did it — that is my pre- 
sent impression ; I don't think Dr. Talmage was in town then. 

Q. You never knew Mr. Remington received a telegram from 
Dr. Talmage, asking him to visit you at Saratoga and present 
this case to you ? A. I never did. 

Q. Well, sir, do you not know that it was at Dr. Talmage's 
earnest solicitation that you were employed as publisher ? A. 
I do not. 

Q. Do you not know that it was entirely through his per- 
sonal influence in the office that you were thus engaged ? A. 
I do not ; I have no doubt that Dr. Talmage first nominated 
me to the Trustees of the Christian at Work Publishing Com- 
pany ; I am equally sure that other people had something to 
do with it besides Dr. Talmage, or I should not have been 
th ere. 

Q. Do you not know that the officers of the Christian at 
Work Company objected for some time to your occupying that 
position, but that they were overborne in their objection by 
Dr. Talmage's assurances and pledges for you? A. If I had 
known that, I never would have been there, for I left a position 
worth more. 

Q. You did not know it at the time ; do you know it now? 
A. I never knew it. 

Q. Never heard of that ? A. I never heard of it. 

Q. You also testified yesterday in regard to the subscribers 
to the Christian at Work, and you said that on " December 
9th, you received 126 subscribers ; December 16th, 208 ; De- 



505 



cember 23d, 387 ; December 30th, 677 — making having received 
during that month by mail alone, 1,398 subscribers ;" now, sir, 
can you give, with equal accuracy, the number of subscribers 
that were dropped during that period ? A. I cannot, 

Q. Were any dropped ? A. I suppose some were dropped 
every month and every week. 

Q. Could you approximate to the number ? A. I cannot ; 
the way I had that number I cut it out from a file of the 
Christian at Work ; I knew that it was correct when it was 
published. 

Q. You knew it so thoroughly that there was no mistake 
about it, and you were ready to swear to it ? A. I wrote it 
myself ; I will swear to anything I write. 

Q. How many of these 1,398 were new subscribers? A. I 
cannot say that ; they all represented $3 subscribers. 

Q. Some of them may have been renewals from old sub- 
scribers ? A. No doubt of it ; I did not say they were new 
subscribers. 

Q. Were these subscriptions all paid for in money ? A. I 
cannot say that, sir ; some might have been paid for in chro- 
mos or sewing machines. 

Q. Were not many of the subscribers that were added to 
the paper at that time publishers of papers who paid for their 
paper b)^ advertising ? A. I do not remember any; I know 
that every one of them demanded twelve months of subscrip- 
tions. 

Q. That was in December ; do you know how many sub- 
scribers were added in January? A. I cannot say, sir ; that 
is the only record I could find, 

Q. Do you not know, or did you not know, that in the first 
half of the month of January, 1876, while 2,542 subscribers 
were added to the list, 3,082 were dropped from the list ? A. I 
don't know, sir ; very likely. 

Q. Being a loss of five hundred ? A. I don't deny the re- 
cords ; if it is the records, it is all right. 

Q. You say, sir, in your testimony yesterday, " There 
seemed to be a tightening up of the money market especially ; 
Mr. Eemington at last said that he could not furnish any more 
money, and unless there could be some assistance the paper 
64 



506 



must stop ; at last he concluded to carry it through the month 
of February ;" do you mean that he concluded to carry it 
through the month of February only ? A. He did not promise 
to carry it one day further. 

Q. Did he have to promise to carry it any further? A. The 
limitation was for the month of February. 

Q. Did he name that ? A. He did to me. 

Q. He stated he would further carry it up to the end of the 
month ? A. He did foi the month of February. 

Q. When was it he said that to you ? A. I think it was the 
last of January. 

Q. How late in January ? A. I cannot give you the exact 
date. 

Q. Was it in the last week of January ? A. Probably. 

Q. You think it was not earlier than that? A. We will say 
on or about the 31st — ten days earlier, it might possibly be. 

Q. Did he in telling you that he could only carry it through 
the month of February, express himself in such a way as to 
convey the impression to your mind that at the end of the 
month of February, so far as he was concerned, the paper 
should stop? A. January l'2th, I got the impression that 
Mr. Remington could furnish no more money, or about Janu- 
ary 15th. 

Q. From whom did you get the impression? A. From Mr. 
Hawley, the Secretary. 

Q. Will you read me what Mr. Hawley wrote you at the 
time? A. (Reading.) "You will see by Mr. Remington's letter 
enclosed that it is not choice but necessity on his part that 
prevents aid to the paper. Two things he cannot do at pres- 
ent; cannot furnish more money, cannot place any more dis- 
counts." 

Q. You took that as a final decision ? A. I took Mr. Rem- 
ington's remarks to me as the final decision. 

Q. But this letter from Mr. Hawley you did not take as a 
final decision ? A. No, sir ; subsequently I saw Mr. Reming- 
ton. 

Q. But then what Mr. Hawley wrote you in regard to that 
matter did not convince you that Mr. Remington was going to 
stop furnishing money to the paper ? A. I don't know 



507 



whether it convinced me or not; it convinced me that the end 
was drawing nigh. 

Q. You thought the paper was about on its last legs ? A. 
I did ; that is just it exactly. 

Q. You had no hope for it ? A. Not a hope. 

Q. Is that ycur handwriting? (Handing paper to the wit- 
ness.) A. It is, sir. 

Mr. Crosby reads the following letter, and offers it in evi- 

cioOCQ " 

New York, Jan. 24th, 1876. 

My Dear Mr. Remington, — Mr. Hawley has shown me your 
letter of 22d inst., which prompts this letter. We have now 
over 18,000 paying circulation, after taking off the January ex- 
pirations, which were large on account of being condensed 
last year from October, November and December subscrip- 
tions being extended into January, 1876. The books are evi- 
dence that the Christian at Work is to-day at the highest 
figure ever reached. The prospects were never so promising. 
To-day 300 subscriptions, and over 200 of them new subscrib- 
ers. It is very wonderful we should advance when older 
papers fall off. You ask Mr. Hawley if I am confident of se- 
curing a circulation of 25,000 this year ? Most decidedly yes. 
I am sure of securing a big advertising patronage. Things 
are surely very promising. If I could see you and show the 
basis of my confident assumptions, you would be equally con- 
vinced. The trip West was worth beyond a doubt 5,000 sub- 
scribers. It exceeded my anticipations. To day's mail shows 
results from that trip. The facts above stated surely prove 
that God is pleased with the publication. The good done by 
the Christian at Work equals that of a dozen churches. The 
future good in ratio. 'Tis late. Good night. 

Yours very cordially, 

B. R. CORWIN. 

A. January 24th, 1876 ; at the time of writing that I believed 
every w T ord of it. 

Q. What was the date of Mr. Hawley's letter to you? A. 
January 12th. 

Q. Between January 12th and January 24th your whole es- 
timates of the prospects of the paper entirely changed? A. 
No, sir. 



508 



Q. Didn't you testify, a few moments ago, that the paper 
was on its last legs ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Does that letter indicate your belief ? A. The point is 
this : I had said to Mr. Remington at the start : " You and 
your clerks will take care of the back indebtedness of the 
paper— about $75,000 or $80,000— and I will run the future of 
it ; " and that letter meant it. 

Q. That, you think, is a complete explanation ? A. That is 
to me. 

Q. Did you — I believe you testified yesterday that you did 
— secure the lease of rooms from the Metropolitan — you did 
not say where, but it was while publisher of the paper, secure 
a lease of rooms from the Metropolitan Life Insurance Com- 
pany for the use of the Christian at Work Company ? A. I 
did. 

Q. When was that ? A. I am sorry I have not the lease 
here ; I can get it for you ; I think the lease was negotiated in 
January, and consummated February 5th. 

Q. It was in February that the lease was effected ? A. Feb- 
ruary 5th, I think. 

Q. By whose authority did you secure that lease? A. Mr. 
Remington's. 

Q. For how many years was that lease to run ? A. Five 
years. 

Q. Were you authorized to procure it for five years ? A. I 
procured it for five years ; Mr. Remington said aiterwards it 
was only for one year ; I did not so understand it. 

Q. Had he said anything to you about a five years' lease ? 
A. He had not said anything to me personally about it ; he 
wrote and telegraphed. 

Q. Did he write and telegraph anything about a five years' 
lease ? A, He wrote about a lease. 

Q. Did he say anything about its being five years, or write 
anything about it? A, He wrote Mr. Hawley about the lease; 
he telegraphed that he thought it was best to take it, and 
wrote to me he thought it best. 

Q. Did he write or telegraph he thought it was bet ter to take 
it for five years ? A. He did not mention the term. 

Q. Did you ever say that the reason why you secured that 



509 



lease for five years was that you supposed that the paper 
would last as long as that V A. I don't remember that remark. 

Q. Do you remember that that was one of the reasons why 
you secured it for that term? A. No, sir ; I don't remember 
that. 

Q, Will you swear that was not one of your reasons ? A. I 
don't remember it. 

Q. Do you remember it was not ? A. I don't remember 
anything about it. 

Q. Well, sir, if you did not expect the paper to last for five 
years would you naturally have secured a lease for that time ? 
A. I secured the lease on the best terms possible ; the paper 
was thfm paying $2,000 a year ; the first year of the lease was 
$880 ; the second year was $1,000 ; the third and fourth years 
it was $1,250, and the lease was an asset, and the moment it 
was signed was worth more than it was agreed upon to pay by 
auybody that held it. If the paper collapsed that lease was 
an asset. 

Q. You do not remember, as a reason for that, that you said 
the paper would last that long? A. I don't remember that; 
that makes three times I have said it ; the next time it will be 
four times, and then I will suspend. . 

Q. I want it clearly, that is all ? A. You have it clearly 
now ; please remember I have said it three times. 

Q. Identify that signature, if you please (handing paper to 
witness) ? A. I think that is Dr. Talmage's handwriting. 

Q. Do you testify to it ? A. Oh, I think it is. 

Mr. Crosby reads the following letter in evidence, which is 
marked Plaintiff's Exhibit B, of April 16, 1879 : 

Dear Mr. Remington, — Yours received, and I have to-say 
that I much regret the involved state of things connected with 
our paper. I shall execute the commission you gave me, 
and see Mr. Cor win, and urge him to an amicable settlement 
of affairs. I have not seen him for several days, and know 
nothing of his intentions. 

It would be a sorry state of things if Christians at work 
could not peacefully arrange differences. 

Yours, &c, 

T. DeWITT TALMAGE. 

Brooklyn, Thursday, P. M. 



510 



Friday Morning. 

Since writing the above I Lave seen Mr. Corwin. He feels 
very strongly on this wLole subject. TLe cLief item of differ- 
ence seems to be the lease for five years. He Las a letter 
from you speaking of tLe telegram in which you gave consent 
to tLe renting of tLe new building. It appeared to all in the 
office that we ought to Lave a place rented, and tLe one se- 
lected seemed to be tLe most favorable. As to tLe term of 
five years, tLat was done on tLe supposition tLat our paper 
would last as long as tLat. Mr. Corwin tells me Le can cLange 
tLat lease if Le is requested to do so. I find tLat Mr. Knapp 
and Mr. Corwin Lave consulted lawyers, and botL are confi- 
dent tLat tLey are legally rigLt, and I suppose mean to main- 
tain tLeir position unless amicable arrangement be made. 

Mr. Corwin and Mr. Knapp are intimate friends, and I sup- 
pose tLe action of tLe one will be the action of the other. I 
think you ha 1 better see Mr. Corwin and talk this matter over. 
If tbese cases go into tLe courts, tLe godless secular journals 
will scarify our paper, and do it great Larm, beside taking 
montLs of precious time that migLt be better employed. It 
seems to me tLat tLe best way to settle tLis matter is to re- 
quest. Mr. Corwin to seek a cLange of Mr. Knapp in this mat- 
ter of five years, and tlien put in Mr. Corwin's Land adver- 
tising matters. I will be responsible for Lis rigLt conduct of 
tliose matters. 

Your " ten days' notice" regulation would make tLe way clear 
for tLe conjunction of any otLer paper. Still, tLe whole matter 
is under your control, and, as you say, it will be. I am under 
tLe opinion tLat Mr. Corwin could make an advertising patron- 
age something immense, if Le gave all Lis time to it. I be- 
lieve tLis plan would keep peace, save money, and be best all 
around. 

Yours, &c, 

T. DeWITT TALMAGE. 

. Q. Now, after reading especially tLis passage : " As to tLe 
term of five years, tLat was done on tLe supposition tLat our 
paper would last as long tLat," does tLat refresh, your memory 
in regard to it ? A. Not one particle ; what Dr. Talmage 
wrote Las no more refresLment to my memory tLan what you 
might write. 



511 



Q. Dr. Talmage did not secure the lease ? A. He did not ; 
he had nothing to do with it. 

Q. And Dr. Talmage writes that that was " done on the 
supposition that our paper would last as long as that ;" would 
Dr. Talmage be likely to write that without you had told him 
that was the supposition ? A. I cannot guess at that. 

Q. From your knowledge of his character do you think he 
would ? A. I am not an expert in character. 

Q. Do you remember having any conference about that with 
Dr. Talmage ? A. I do not ; the lease was made, and the 
lease was canceled — that is all about that — without damage to 
the paper. 

Q. You testified yesterday that " Mr. Remington, former 
proprietor of the Christian at JFor&,had notified the editor,pub- 
lisher and secretary in January that he was financially unable 
to carry on the paper ; this was known in general in the office ; 
it was the cause of anxiety to all, especially to Dr. Talmage 
and myself how the subscribers could be reimbursed for unex- 
pired subscriptions, " and so on ; you will identify that letter 
please? (handing letter to witness). A. That is Dr. Talmage's 
handwriting I think. 

Mr. Crosby reads the letter as follows ; and it is marked in 
evidence Plaintiff's Exhibit C, of April 16, 1879. 

* New York, February 7th, 1876. 

Dear Mr. Remington,— We still live, and, through your 
help and the Lord's blessing, expect to live. 

Retrenchment is the word all through our paper. Instead 
of Mr. Taylor, we get a man as good for $600, who will do all 
Mr. Taylor's work and more besides. We shall save $800 by 
the change. We shall have our temperance department kept 
up spiritedly. We hope that our efforts will be equal to your 
expectation, and that the storm tossed Christian at Work will 
sail out into smooth water. We all mean to put our trust in 
God and do our best. 

Yours, etc., 

T. De WITT TALMAGE. 
Q. Now, Mr. Corwin, when you swore that Mr. Remington 
had notified the editor that he was financially unable to carry 
on the paper, how did you know of it that he had notified the 
editor ? A. I heard him say it. 



512 



Q. In January? A. I think it was in January. 

Q. You so stated yesterday; well, that notification, according 
to this letter, seemed not to have much effect on Dr. Talmage ? 
A. I am not responsible for that. 

Q. You say this was known generally in the office ; it was 
the cause of anxiety to all ; how could you say it was the 
cause of anxiety to all when Mr. Talmage says : " We still live, 
and through your help and the Lord's blessing expect to live?" 
A. I expected to live ; I don't know whether Mr. Talmage did 
or not. 

Q. That is what you think Dr. Talmage meant by his letter? 
A. I don't know anything more than what he says; when Mr. 
Remington says : Your salary has come out of my pocket" — I 
don't know where the receipts went to — " and I cannot afford 
to pay you any more salary ; you must all come down, " and so 
on, I think I am justified in saying all that I have said. 

Q. You also say that he notified the Secretary in January 
to that effect ; what is your authority for that ? A. My mem- 
ory of the communication which Mr. Hawley received from 
Mr. Remington containing something of that kind — everybody 
must reduce salaries or he could not go any further. 

Q. Could you identify that letter, please (Landing letter to 
witness) ? A. I think that is Mr. Remington's handw T riting ? 

Q. Addressed to whom ? A. Mr. Hawley. 

Q. He was secretary of the company, was he not ? A. He 
was. 

Mr. Crosby offers this in evidence, and reads the letter as 
follows, it being marked Plaintiff's Exhibit D, of this date. 

Ilion, Feb. 8th, 1676. 

Dear Brother Hawley : Your letter of yesterday and tele- 
gram of last evening came to hand this morning. I telegraphed 
you to draw for the $500 you required to-day, but to make the 
draft three days' sight if you could. I am expecting some 
funds by day after to-morrow, from the arrangement referred 
to in previous letters, though the amount will not be as much 
as I had hoped to secure. I may be able, however, to obtain 
more a month or two hence, if necessary. Please inform me 
how 7 much your prolalle receipts will be this week and next, and 
how much you will be likely to need to cover the deficiency. 



513 



Also mention the bills outstanding that are most urgent. Do 
you know whether the $4,500 accommodation paper given 
Havemeyer due 11th is in his hands or in bank? Mr. H. is 
(I believe) now at Clifton Springs, and I have addressed a line 
to him there, inquiring concerning this paper, and I may hear 
from him in regard to it if you do not know how it is. I wish 
you to give me the figures for the advertising (the totals) in 
the months of November and December, 1875, as compared 
with November and December, 1874 (same as you have already 
given them for the month of January '75 and '76). 

Would like you also to give the number of mail subscribers 
to the Christian at Work at the present time, and the number 
of copies you are furnishing the news companies from week to 
week, as you are now supplying them ; giving me with the 
above, the number of mail subscribers last year ; the time, and 
also number of copies sold to the nevrs companies then. Are 
names of subscribers dropped out of the list promptly when 
the subscriptions expire if they are not renewed. And if I 
shall not be troubling you too much with my queries, please 
tell me what amount has been credited contributors on last 
two numbers of the paper ; I mean total amount each week. 

The reduction of expenses, as mentioned by you, will make 
a material saving in course of a year. 

Youis truly, 

E. KEMINGTON. 

Q. Your knowledge, then, of Mr. Kemington's intention was 
not very thorough ; Mr. E. Remington, proprietor, had notified 
the editor, publisher, and Secretary in January that he was 
financially unable to carry on the paper ; this was known gen- 
erally in the office ; it was the cause of anxiety to all, especially 
to Dr. Talmage and myself/' A. It was thorough enough for 
my action. 

Q. You were asked yesterday, "Did the debt of the paper 
increase while you were connected with it?" and you an- 
swered : " I think not ;" do you know whether the debt of the 
paper increased or not ? A I answer the same as I an- 
swered yesterday — I think not. 

Q. But you do not know ? A. The same answer. 

Q. You were also asked : " How in regard to expenses ?" 
65 



514 



and you answered : " I had reduced expenses very soon after 
I went there ; reduced some unnecessary help — employes — a 
large force, and had taken steps for the reducing of the item 
of rent, which was $2,000 ;" you mentioned those two items of 
reduction ; how much did you succeed, do you remember, in 
reducing the expenses ? A. The letter you have just read 
from Mr. Remington speaks of the reduction of expenses. 

Q. Do you know how much the expenses were reduced? A- 
I don't remember any others now ; please bear in mind that 
this is a good many years ago, and I have never charged my 
mind with it since, except as I had memorandum or data that 
I could refer to. 

Q. Do you remember any other items in which you reduced 
expenses ? A. I don't remember any others now ; I proposed 
to reduce the expense of rent. 

Q. What were the other expenses of the paper which might 
be reduced? A. Employees — an unnecessary number; the 
expenses of the composing room, which were also reduced ; 
this is a matter I have dismissed from my mind for a long time ; 
I don't propose to take it up again. 

Q. Well, sir, did you or not induce Messrs. Leveridge & 
Cobb to reduce the charge for composing and making up the 
paper from $180 to $100 a week, by promising to make up to 
them the amount afterwards ? A. There was an arrangement 
with Mr. Leveridge and Mr. Cobb ; I don't recall it to mind 
now. 

Q. Did you speak to any one else about that arrangement ? 
A. It was a matter of conversation in the office ; it was carried 
out. 

Q. Did you speak to Dr. Talmage about it — have any con- 
ference with him ? A. Very likely ; I don't call it to mind 
now ; quite possibly ; it was no secret. 

Q. Did you seek, in any way, directly or indirectly, to induce 
Leveridge & Cobb to make an agreement for composing the 
paper at a lower rate than they could afford, yon giving them 
to understand that they should lose nothing by it ? A. I re- 
ceived from them their proposition ; I acting in the best inter- 
ests of the Christian at Work Publishing Company, they acting 
in the best interests of Leveridge & Cobb. 



515 



Q. By the way, who was this Mr. Cobb ? A. Mr. Joseph E. 
Cobb. 

Q. Were you connected with him in any other relation ? 
A. No other relation. 

Q. Was he connected with the Tabernacle Church at that 
time ? A. He was a member of the church. 

Q. Was he an officer in the church ? A. I think he was an 
elder ; I am not sure ; I was not. 

Q. Is that your handwriting (handing witness paper) ? A. 
Yes, sir ; I think it is ; hold on a bit ; let me make sure of 
this ; this is very poor writing ; no, sir, that is not my hand- 
writing. ' ,. 

Q. No ; but that (pointing to it) ; there are two different 
handwritings on it ; here is a note signed " B. B. C. ;" is that 
in your handwriting ? A. It looks very much like it ; but it is 
very badly mixed. 

Q. Just indicate by drawing , a line under it with a pencil 
what is your handwriting? A. I think I wrote the whole of 
that. 

Q. This is a memorandum ? A. Without date. 

Q. The date has been inserted? A. I decline that. 

Q. I know you do ; the date has been inserted among other 
memoranda, and I don't propose to give it as evidence at all, 
but hereafter we shall do it, within a day or two ? A. I have 
no doubt but what the date is right. 

Mr. Crosby — I will merely state that the part of the memo- 
randum which is not in Mr. Corwin's handwriting is in the 
handwriting of Mr. Bright, and he will hereafter identify it ; we 
will connect it with him. 

Mr. Millard — You propose reading what Mr. Corwin has 
written ? 

Mr. Crosby — No; I propose to read all, because we cannot 
understand Mr. Corwin's statements without having the other 
in connection with it. 

(Mr. Crosby reads the memorandum, as follows : — it being 
marked "Plaintiff's Exhibit E, of April 1st, 1879.) 

New York, February 1, 1876. 

PROPOSAL. 

What will they set up and impose and make ready forms of 
twenty pages, just as it comes, and in long primer, brevier, 



Bonpareil or agate type, as ordered, per week? (X hope they 
will say $100 per week.— B. K C.) 

How much will they do our mail list, as now done, regardless 
of number of names? How much will they do all our job 
printing for in small or large quantities, as done in the past, 
giving us the preference over everybody, we furnishing the 
paper ? 

(The above is Bright's inquiry ; he is trying to make figures 
just for the occasion. That will not be lived up to, for he is 
very ambitions to say, " I did it." The composing room has 
been costing $180 per week, and the proof badly read. Now, 
tell L. and Cobb to offer to do for $100 per week, and we will 
see they don't lose by the offer. Tell them not to be afraid 
that we will take advantage of them.) 

Q. Can you tell me what you meant by saying ? A. (In- 
terrupting) Just what I said. 

Q. Can you tell me just what you meant by saying : "We will 
see they don't lose by the offer ?" A. I meant just exactly 
what I said in those words. 

Q. How, could they lose by the offer ? A. I cannot explain 
how they could lose by the offer ; they were practical men. 

Q. Can you throw any light on this?. A. Not one particle. 

Q. Nothing to say about it ? A. I don't remember now the 
circumstances. 

Q. If you cannot explain it, we will get it explained by 
somebody else by-and-by ; now, I want to ask you a few ques- 
tions about that interview at yeur house in March — early in 
March — to see if we can get at your theory of it, as it differs 
from Mr. Hallock's clearly and distinctly? A. I have no 
theory. 

Q. There are some points about it that I honestly want to 
get cleared up ; in your account of it, as you testified to it yes- 
terday, you say : " It was a matter of great concern to us 
whether the subscribers, who had sent in their $3.00 from all 
over the world, should receive the paper for the balance of the 
year ; that was the only thing that was on my mind, and I think 
it was the only thing on Dr. Talmage's mind when Mr. Hallock 
called;" now, sir, can you date that interview definitely? A. 
I accept Mr. Hallock's statement as to the date of it. 



617 



Q. Mr. Hallook said he could not swear positively as to the 
date of it? A. Mr. Hallock made a statement, I think, in 
which he said it was March 6th. 

Q. I think, if you will notice that statement, it may be read 
in either way ; can you date it in any other way ? A. I sup- 
posed it was accepted as March 6th ; I have not charged my 
mind to cipher it up. 

Q. That is the only way you have for identifying the date ? 
A. I have not charged my mind ; I "didn't know the date was 
questioned ; whatever Mr. Hallock states I have no doubt is 
correct— about the date. 

Q. Now, will you please answer my question ; have you any 
other means of identifying the date ? A. I don't call to mind 
anything in particular now. 

Q. That is, you don't know what the date was ? A. I ac- 
cept March 6th ; if that is not correct, I don't know whether it 
was the 7th or 8th ; I don't know particularly about it. 

Q. Then, you really have not got at the date upon this trial 
yet, for Mr. Hallock testified that he didn't know that he was 
not sure whether it was the 6th or not ; he thought it was 
about that time, and you cannot fix it any more definitely ? 
A. Oh, I relied on him entirely. 

Q. You cannot fix it any more definitely? A. I have not 
tried to; have never had the question raised until this 
moment. 

Q. Now, you say that your own name was on the paper as 
the publisher, and Dr. Talmage's was on the paper as the 
editor, and you felt a responsibility about supplying the unex- 
pired subscriptions ; this plan of yours then — I would like to 
have your attention, Mr. Corbin ? A. I am trying to help 
you ; I find here a note which I believe Mr. Hallock brought 
In which was dated ' March 6th, in which Dr. Talmage invited 
Mr. Hallock to come around to his house " this evening " be- 
fore 8 o'clock, and that I think was accepted as the evening in 
which Mr. Hallock called at my house. 

Q. Mr. Hallock was very careful in his testimony about 
that? A. Then I shall have to be equally careful myself. 

Q. Because he cannot fix the date, and we want to see if we 
can fix it by you ? A. I cannot ; Mr. Hallock states, I think, 



518 



in his public statement, that it was the 6th — the statemen 
which I replied to. 

Q. That is all a mistake ; it can be read that way, but it can 
be read another w^ay, also ; which was the way he intended it 
to be read ? A. I did not know it could be read two ways. 

Q. There are two ways of reading a great many things ? A. 
Not what I write. 

Q. Now, sir, I shall have to repeat the question I was askin 
you a few moments ago ; you stated yesterday in your testi 
mony that as Dr. Talmage's name was on the paper as edito 
and your name was on the paper as publisher, it w r as a matte 
of great concern to you whether the subscribers who had sen 
in their $3.00 from all over the country should receive th 
paper for the balance of the year? "That was the only thin 
that was on my mind, and I think it was the only thing on Dr 
Talmage's mind when Mr. Hallock called ; w T e were expecting 
stoppage of the paper ;" please tell us why you wanted Mr. 
Hallock to print the paper on his own type and forms? A. 
didn't know that he had any other types and forms. 

Q. Why couldn't the paper be printed on the types an 
forms on which it had been printed ? A. Probably the 
would be in the sheriff's hands by that time if the paper stop 
ped. 

Q. You think the creditors would have seized the propert 
of that paper ? A. Well, I should think so. 

Q. Was not Mr. Eemington responsible for the indebtednes 
of the Christian at Work ? A. I did not go into that. 

Q. Wouldn't the creditors have looked to Mr. Eemington to 
meet the obligations of the paper ? A.I didn't go into that. 

Q. Did you know as a matter of fact that was the case ? A. 
I don't know who the creditors . would have looked to ; they 
would have looked to the Christian at Work Association ; I 
don't know. 

Q. Did you know they had a legal claim on Mr. Eemington ? 
A. I don't know that they had. 

Q. Did you know it then ? A. I didn't know any more then 
than I do now. 

Q. Now, I should like to ask you whether the mail list of the 
Christian at Work was not a marketable property ? A. Not of 
a defunct institution, I think. 



519 



Q. Why not? A. I don't choose to argue it, that is all; it 
is my judgment. 

Q. At this time, if the paper should stop under Mr. Keming- 
ton, would the institution be defunct ? A. If the paper stop- 
ped, I should judge it was defunct. 

Q. Didn't the mail list apply then to the creditors of the 
paper ? A. I suppose it did. 

Q. They would have had the same right to seize the mail 
list that they would the type ? A. Most certainly. 

Q. What right had you or Mr. Hallock, or Dr. Talmage to 
use the mail list which belonged to the creditors of the Chris- 
tian at Work? A. We did not use it. 

Q. What right would you have ? A. We did not go into the 
hypothecation of the possibility of what might have occurred. 

Q. Didn't you ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You swore yesterday that you did ? A. I swore yester- 
day if it was necessaiy to supply those people whose money we 
had received and to whom the paper had not been sent for 
nine, ten, or eleven months, that we could give the name and 
address of those to whom we owed the paper ; I was very clear 
about that, I think. 

Q. Were not the names and addresses the mail list ? A. It 
was the mail list — contained on the mail list. 

Q. That is, you would use the mail list if — it was a hy- 
pothecation that you swore to yesterday — if the paper stopped 
you would use the mail list which belonged to the creditors of 
the Christian at Work to supply the unexpired terms ? A. If 
the paper stopped I proposed to supply the subscribers for the 
unexpired terms, if possible. 

Q. That was all you proposed? A. That was all I pro- 
posed. 

Q. Suppose new subscribers wished to come into the paper, 
would you have received them ? A. I receive them ? 

Q. In this plan you had ? A. Why should I receive them ? 

Q. You and Dr. Talmage and Mr. Hallock, according to the 
plan that you proposed tnat evening? A. I proposed to have 
nothing to do with it ; in case the Christian at Work stopped, I 
stopped, too. 

Q. You were going to withdraw ? A. Oh, yes, withdraw 



520 



from what ? I beg your pardon ; you say I was going to with- 
draw ; I want to answer your question by asking another ; 
withdraw from what ? 

Q. Withdraw from all connection with these gentlemen in 
this relation ? A. I hadn't any connection with them. 

Q. Were not you and Dr. Talmage and Mr. Hallock in con- 
sultation in regard to a certain business relation ? A. In con- 
sultation that evening, but not in relation to my being 
connected with Mr. Hallock ; none whatever ; never thought of 
it; Dr. Talmage, as I said before, said to Mr. Hallock : " If 
you will buy the Christian at Work now, and relieve us from 
this impending disgrace, I will edit the paper for one year for 
nothing :" I bad nothing to do with it ; I had had enough of 
newsparjers. 

Q. I believe you stated that Mr. Hallock did not say that he 
would bay the paper; you said, "Dr. Talmage said, 'If you 
will buy this paper, and relieve us from this uncertainty, 
I will serve you a year as editor for nothing ;' there 
was no further talk of buying the paper ; nothing of the jdnd ; 
then the question was asked Mr. Hallock, if in the event the 
Christian at Work stopped he could take on his own type, use 
his ow T n form, and issue and supply for the unexpired term to 
the subscribers for the balance of the year a paper, looking to 
them for the renewal of their subscriptions for his remunera- 
tion;" that was the proposition then ; Mr. Hallock was to be 
remunerated, was he, from the renewal of these subscriptions, 
if he received any remuneration; that w r as the idea, was it? 
A. That was the talk. 

Q. Wouldn't that remuneration come from the mail list, 
wdiich belonged to the creditors of the Christian at Work ? A. 
I should think it was coming from the people who renewed. 

Q. Were they not the people who were on the mail list of 
the Christian at Work ? A. You are one move ahead of me, 
Mr. Crosby ; I cannot follow T you quite as far as that. 

Q. I ask you, sir, whether those men who would renew their 
subscriptions w r ere not the men whose names w r ere ou the mail 
list of the Christian at Work? A. Originally on the list; if 
you put the word original there I will say yes, sir. 

Q. At that time that you made the proposition ? A. At that 
time. 



521 



Q. Then, all the advantage and remuneration which was to 
flow from this enterprise was to come, or largely to come, from 
the mail list which really belonged to the creditors of the 
Christian at Work, in case the Christian at Work should stop ? 
A. It was to come from supplying nine, ten or eleven months 
of the paper which he had given nothing for and for which the 
Christian at Work had got the money. 

Q. Was the mail list, the subscription list, at that time suffi- 
cient to pay the expenses of the paper ? A. That depends 
upon what the expenses were. 

Q. According to your understanding of the plan that was 
discussed at your house, and in your presence, how was Mr. 
Hallock to be paid for his share of the work of carrying the 
paper? A.. There was no further discussion than what I have 
stated ; it was an interview of half an hour, not longer than 
three-quarters ; it was unexpected ; the remark was made as I 
stated it yesterday ; I have no further explanation to give to 
anything that occurred that night; I stated it then in my reply 
to Mr. Hallock, which I read you yesterday ; I stated it in 
full, everything I call to mind without any mental reservation, 
or anything of the kind ; it led to nothing, and I charged my 
mind with nothing. 

Q. And you state that Mr. Hallock was to look to the sub- 
. scribers for his remuneration from their renewals, so that by 
the renewals from those subscribers he was to get his pay ? A. 
That is all I can state. 

Q. Did that mail list have any marketable Value ? A. Not 
to my own knowledge. 

Q. Did you know that Mr. Hallock afterwards paid for that 
mail list alone ten thousand dollars ? A. I do not know that 
he paid ten cents. 

Q. He has testified to the fact that he did ? A. I do not 
know. 

Q. At all events you and Dr. Talmage, or Dr. Talmage, in 
your presence, did ask Mr. Hallock if he could print and pub- 
lish the paper on his type in the case of its stoppage ? A. 
This is the third time I have stated that. 

Q. Now, sir, you knew at that time, as understood, that Mr. 
66 



522 



Hallock was the publisher of a Unitarian paper ? A I did not 
charge my mind with what Mr. Hallock was publishing. 

Q. You swore yesterday that you understood he was pub- 
lisher of a Unitarian paper ? A. I stated that I understood 
that he was the publisher of the Liberal Christian. 

Q. You and Dr. Talmage wanted Mr. Hallock to be the pub- 
lisher of your orthodox paper while he was already a publisher 
of a Unitarian paper? A. Now, then, will you please not put 
such questions in my mouth — my orthodox paper ! I had no 
orthodox paper. 

Q. The orthodox paper that Dr. Talmage was publishing? 
A. You put yours the other way ; I shall decline to answer 
anything further on that subject ; you tried to set a trap for 
me, and I shall stop. 

Q. I beg your pardon, I A. (Interrupting.) You 

ought to beg my pardon ; I shall answer no more questions on 
that interview. 

Q. In speaking of the mail list of the Christian at Work, you 
mentioned three copies which were printed according to the 
custom which had been inaugurated before you became pub- 
lisher, one of which was sent to the publisher's house ; you 
said, " This was sent by the office boy ; I never touched it ; 
he delivered it at the door ; it was always put in the lower part 
of my desk, and there accumulated month after month ; Mr. 
Hallock did not see it, or no other man ;" what do you mean 
when you say that " no other man " saw ; did you mean at that 
particular time ? A. I mean just exactly what I say — at that 
particular time, and at all other particular times. 

Q. Do you mean to say, sir, that no other man ever seen 
that mail list ? A. Not to my knowledge, no other man, 
woman or child ever saw it. 

Q. Did you retain in your possession a copy of the mail list 
of the Christian at Work after you left the service of that 
paper ? A. No, sir ; it went into the furnace, I think. 

<j Who threw it into the furnace ? A. I cannot tell you. 

<y. Did you ? A. I did not. 

Q. Then you don't know that it was thrown into the furnace, 
do you ? A. I do not know what became of it. 

Q. Had you more than one copy of . the mail list at your 



523 



house when you ceased to publish the paper ? A. I think the 
lower part of my desk was full of it. 

Q. Were all these copies destroyed, so far as you know ? 
A. They were. 

Q. At that time ? A. Yes, sir ; it was about cleaning house 
time ; I guess they were destroyed, to the best of my knowl- 
edge and belief. 

Q. Did you ever use the mail list of the Christian at Work, 
or dispose of it in any way for the use and benefit of yourself 
or any one else ? A. I answered that yesterday, in your hear- 
ing ; I will answer it again now ; I never did, and this is the 
last time I will answer it. 

Q. Didn't the New York Evening Express publish Dr. Tal- 
mage's sermons at one time 2 A. I do not know but what 
they do now ; I do not know. 

Q. You don't know ? A. I do not know ; I have not seen 
the New York Evening Express in a great while. 

Q. Have you any reason to believe that the New York Even- 
ing Express has published his sermons ? A. I have seen his 
sermons in the New York Evening Express. 

Q. Didn't you tell Warren S. Sillcocks that you would pro- 
vide him with a copy of the mail list for the use of the Evening 
Express ? A. I did not. 

Q. Did you not use words to that effect to him ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you supply, directly or indirectly, the owners or 
officers of the Advance, or any one connected with the Advance, 
with a copy of the mail list of the Christian at Work ? A. 
This is another time you have asked me that question, and I 
have answered it not two minutes ago. 

Q. Do you know how the Advance came into possession of 
a copy of that mail list ? A. I do not ; I have seen a letter 
from Mr. Howard, which says that he got it from the agent in 
the west. 

Q. The agent of the Christian at Work ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you have anv conversation with Dr. Talmage about 
the mail list after you and he had ceased the connection with 
the Christian at Work ? A. Never a word. 

Q. Now, sir, I will be compelled to repeat some questions ; 
has Mr. Thomas E. Pearsall never seen that mail list of the 



524 



Christian at Work while it was in your possession ? A. Not 
to my knowledge. 

Q. Has Mr. Warren S. Sillcocks ever seen it ? A. Not to my 
knowledge. 

Q. Didn't you show that to them or either of them ? A. I 
do not remember that I ever did. 

Q. Have you that list now in your possession? A. No, sir. 

Q. You testified yesterday, Mr. Corwin — Mr. Millard, I be- 
lieve, asked you : " Did Dr. Talmage make use of this ex- 
" pression at that interview, ' not five hundred subscribers will 
" remain with Remington,' or anything to that effect? A. I 
" answered that at the time, a good many years ago ; no such 
" remark was made in my presence." 

Q. Now, I ask you, was anything said about subscribers not 
remaining with Mr. Eemington ? A. No, sir. 

Q, Was there anything said about the subscribers following 
Dr. TaJmage? A. Nothing in my presence. 

Q. You read yesterday extracts from the letters from Mr. 
Eemington ? £i Mr. Eemington wrote me in January, 1876 : 
' We may confidently look to see the Christian at Work, ere 
long, emerge from the cloud of embarrassment that has so 
long hovered over it ; ' " that was the same month, was it, in 
which he informed you, and the editor and the secretary, that 
he was financially unable to carry on the paper ? A. January, 
1876. 

Q. And he writes to you : " We may confidently look to see 
the Christian at Work, ere long, emerge from the cloud of em- 
barrassment that has so long hovered over it ;" you read that 
extract in answer to this question : " Did you ever receive any 
congratulation from Mr. Eemington as to the manner in which 
you conducted the paper; if so when and where?" there is 
one of them here ; there is also another of them here ; this is 
January 4th, 1876 : "Letters from Brother Hawley have kept 
me pretty well advised in regard to the improved condition 
of affairs ; I should have written before to congratulate you 
on the measure of success you have already attained ; " now 
Mr. Corwin, didn't you send a statement to Mr. Eemington, 
before these letters were written about the condition of affairs 
of the company which was incorrect ? A. Not to my know- 
ledge. 



525 



Q. I do not mean to your knowledge when yon wrote the 
statement or when it was prepared, but did yon ever send a 
statement which was incorrect ? A. The statement which I 
sent to Mr. Remington was compiled from the advertising 
agent's report to me, and from the report of the secretary to me. 

Q. Were you not informed that this statement was incorrect 
before you mailed it, or before it was mailed to Mr. Reming- 
ton ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Was it not this statement which Mr. Remington received 
from you in regard to the condition of affairs of the Christian 
at Work which called forth these expressions of approval? A. 
I don't know, sir. 

Q. You said, so far as your observation extended, Mr. Rem- 
ington's conduct toward employes of the paper was dictatorial ; 
can you specify any act or work that can be properly charac- 
terized as dictatorial on the part of Mr. Remington ? A. I 
asked Mr. Remington in case the Christian at Work stopped, 
what plan he had for supplying the unexpired time to these 
subscribers ; he answered very curtly and only these words, 
" I have none ;" that is as good evidence as I can give. 

Q. Do you remember any other instance which illustrates 
that? A. Yes, sir; the instance when he came to me, I think 
about the last of February, and said my services were no 
longer required. 

Q. That sounded very dictatorial ? A. I think it did. 
. Q. Do you remember any other instance ? A. That is 
enough. 

Q. That is all you remember ? A. That is all I call to mind 
at present. 

Q. Do you remember any instance of his acting dictatorial 
to any other of the employees ? A. My impressions are that 
he acted the same way to other employes. 

Q. You do not remember any circumstances that came 
under your observation? A. I do not recall them to mind 
now. 

Q. You said that Mr. Remington wanted Mr. Bright to take 
less salary, and Mr. Hawley ; and then you said, "lam not 
sure about Mr. Hawley, but Mr. Bright — " well, we will stop 
at that there ; I believe also you said he wished you to take less 



526 



salary ; did he mention that to you personally ? A. I think he 
wrote to Mr. Hawley to request it. 

Q. Do you remember positively that he did request you, 
directly or indirectly, to take less salary ? A. Mr. Hawley re- 
quested me in Mr. Remington's name, if I remember it now. 

Q. He wanted Mr. Bright' s salary reduced ; do you know 
that Mr. Talmage was in accord with Mr. Remington in his 
desire to reduce salary ? A. I did not. 

Q. Did not you hear a letter that was read here in evi- 
dence suggesting a reduction of salaries by Dr. Talmage ? A. 
I have heard the letter read here this afternoon. 

Q. No sir ; the one that was read early in the trial ; I will 
read what I refer to and perhaps it will recall it ; he is speak- 
ing of the difficulties of the paper : " I think that until we get 
right side up " A. What is the date of the letter, please? 

Q. The date of the letter is August, 1875? A. I had 
nothing to do with the paper at that time, sir. 

Q. I am asking you whether you knew that Dr. Talmage 
had suggested a reduction of salaries? A. I did not. 

Q. I will refresh your memory : "I think that until we get 
right side up that Hawley ought to have not more than 
two thousand dollars, the same as Adams ^ave him ; Mr. 
Bright, $2,500, the amount at which I first engaged him ; the 
publisher taking a percentage ; all this until our affairs are 
adjusted ; the larger the salary given to these men the better it 
pleases me, but we cannot, in our straightened circumstances, 
afford to be exceptionally and unprecedentedly liberal." 
Also in the same letter before that one he said : " I think that 
our mistake has been too big salaries ; there is not a book- 
keeper in a religious newspaper office that gets more than 
$1,500 ; the advertising man never gets a regular salary, but is 
dependent upon percentage ; Mr. Hallock has had long ex- 
perience." So that Mr. Remington was acting in accord and 
at the suggestion of Dr. Talmage, who desired to reduce sala- 
ries ? A. I do not see as that letter proves it, sir ; that letter 
was written before I went there, or ever thought of going 
there. 

Q. You have no reason to suppose that Dr. Talmage's views 
had changed in regard to that principle ? A. I do not know 
that the letter was ever written. 



527 



Q. You have stated that you were the publisher of the 
Christian at Work for a while ; just state what months you were 
publisher? A. I think I commenced in October ; I think my 
relations ceased the 31st of March. 

Q. Did you perform the duties of your office all that time ? 
A. To the best of my ability ; as far as I was able. 

Q. Did you receive compensation according to the agree- 
ment with the company ? A. I never made any complaint, I 
think. 

Q. Did you take with you or keep in your possession any 
paper or papers belonging to the Christian at Work after you 
ceased to perform the active duties of your office ? A. I do 
not remember any papers. 

Q. Did you retain in your possession a note of the Christian 
at Work company endorsed by Mr. Remington for $2,500 or 
thereabouts ? A. There was a note in my possession which I 
had attempted to get discounted, w T hich was afterwards re- 
turned to Mr. Dickinson without any discounting; I informed 
them of it ; they had forgotten it was in my possession ; I 
informed them of it and returned it to Mr. Dickinson ; I think 
I returned it to him a month or two after I had left. 

Q. When did you try to get this note discounted, and it 
didn't succeed ? A. When I was publisher of the paper. 

Q. When did you inform them that you had possession of 
it ? A. When I found that I had it. 

Q. As soon as you found out ? A. Probably I cannot re- 
member the exact date. 

Q. Did you make any objection to returning it to them when 
it was asked of you ? A. I may have had some talk about it ; 
I considered that by my dismissal after the six months, that 
I had a proper claim against that institution, if there was any- 
thing valid, for at least a full year. 

Q. Was that the reason you retained that note ? A. It is. 

Q. Do you remember, during the session of the General 
Assembly, that Mr. Henry Dickinson called on you and de- 
manded its return ? A. He called on me, requesting the re- 
turn ; I gave it to him in the corridor^ of the Tabernacle while 
the General Assembly was in session. 

Q. Did you collect sums of money or merchandise from the 



528 



Christian at Work Company's advertisers after you ceased to 
perforin the duties of publisher ? A. In my final settlements I 
assumed certain charges, which were settled in full between 
us. 

Q. Is that an answer to my question, sir ? A. It is ; I will 
repeat it again ; I received in settlement certain amounts of 
merchandise and collections, &c. 

Q. You received in settlement with whom? A. The 
Christian at Work publishing company. 

Q. Had you received those sums of money or merchandise 
before that settlement was made ? A. I made the best settle- 
ment I could with them to avoid a law suit. 

Q. What was the law suit ; how was it to avoid a law suit ? 
A. That is my answer, sir. 

Q. Did you ever pay over these sums to the company ? A. 
The law suit, I may say, was, that I should have brought a law 
suit against them if I had acted as I felt I might. 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. Mr. Corwin, when did your engagement at the Christian 
at Work legally cease? A. I don't think it legally ceased — it 
illegally ceased the 31st of March. 

Q. For what length of time were you engaged ? A. There 
was no length of time named ; $4,000 a year and an interest in 
the business. 

Q. When did they re-elect their officers ? A. That I don't 
remember. 

Q. Did you ever see the regulations or rules under which 
the officers of that company were re-elected ? A. I don't re- 
member that I did. 

Q. Then, when your name was dropped, did you cease to 
have any connection with the Christian at Work, the latter 
part of March ; you regarded them as still indebted to you ? 
A. I certainly did ; it was a violation of the contract most 
glaring. 

Q. What means did you take to reimburse yourself ? A. I 
proposed to bring a suit against them, but decided not to 
do it. 

Q. Did you ever secure any moneys as a compensation for 
the time after the period you were dismissed until the fulfill- 



529 



rnent of the year? A. I think there was something allowed in 
consideration ; I cannot give you the amount of the exact set- 
tlement ; it was not a definite arrangement ; I made the best 
settlement for myself that I could under the circumstances. 

Q. In regard to this note, I would like to ask you one or 
two questions. A. I think I can explain in one word about 
that note. 

Q. Go on, sir. A. I found the note, I think, in a wallet, 
accidentally ; I considered that that note was a club in my 
hands to bring them to a fair settlement; I kept it in my hands; 
they wanted it ; I said : " Settle, and I will hand it over." 
They proposed to charge me with stealing the note. I says : 
" Charge, and go on that gait as long as you please." We had, 
of course, some talk about the matter ; finally, I said to Mr. 
Dickinson : " Here, take the note." I was under the influence 
then of the General Assembly of this church, and I did not 
want any more talk with Mr. Dickinson ; I gave him the note 
in the corridor of the Tabernacle, and dismissed it from my 
mind, and don't know anything more about it ; I did not steal 
it. 

Q. Do yon remember the final conversation which occurred 
between you and Mr. Dickinson before the surrender of the 
note? A. I remember the conversation. 

Q. Would you be willing to give it ? A. I remember there 
was a conversation ; I was told that Dr. Yan Dyke would call 
me inside the church the next minute, and I thought I would 
make it very short ; and I said : " Here, take the note, and do 
what you have a mind to do with it, and I will have no more 
to do with it." I said : " What do you propose ? " and he 
proposed something in his peculiar way, and I said : " Do you 
call that honorable ? " and he said : " No, I don't know that 
it is ; take the note back ;" and I said : " I don't want it ; I 
want nothing more to do with it ; I have to go inside." That 
is all I remember. 

Q. You said that you heard Capt. - Latham, in the civil 
court, swear that he never authorized you to put his name to 
that card for a subscription ol $500 ; and you have sworn that 
you were authorized. A. I don't know that he swore he never 
authorized me ; I heard him repudiate his $500 pledge ; I 
67 



530 



heard hiin make the $500 pledge ; I, as secretary of that meet- 
ing, filled out that blank and handed it up to the desk, as I 
did hundreds of others ; whenever there was one called off, I 
would write it and hand it up, so as to keep it a matter of 
record. 

Q. Where did he make that pledge ? A. In his own 
house. 

Q. In the presence of whom ? A. Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Would you explain again to me, if you please, your 
method of assigning pews, from the Trustees' stand point — 
very briefly ? A. If you should come to me, and ask me for a 
pew, I would say : " Here is a pew, there is a pew, and there 
is a pew ; which do you like best ?" and you would say : " I 
like that pew 7 ;" and I would say : "Very well, there is your 
pew ; now how much, sir, will you give for the support of the 
gospel in our church ?" 

Q. Then you assign them ? A. That is the assignment. 

Q. If you had a diagram, with a specific amount attached 
to each pew, suppose I came in and said : " Your church is a 
free church, and I am able to give what I am able to give, for the 
support of the gospel ; now here is a pew, and I will give 
you five or ten dollars for a year ;" and what would you do 
with me ? A. I shall have to ask the stenographer to read 
that long question over, and then I shall answer it right 
straight. 

Q. I think I can best get at this in piecemeal ; I prefer to do 
this in conversation, Mr. Corwin, and take myself in illustra- 
tion ? A. You have spoken, sir, about the diagram ; the first 
that was ever said about a diagram is in the minutes of the 
Board of Trustees, of January 6th, 1876; my best memory 
about that is this : the resolution is, a special committee of 
four, consisting of the finance committee and the treasurer was 
appointed, to make a schedule of rates of pews for the ensu- 
ing year ; Mr. Hathaway was to assume his duties about that 
time; we w T ere coming to the annual assignment of pews; 
strangers, who came in, not knowing our plan of assignment 
of pews, would be very much disturbed about what price to 
name; " Take that pew ; what price will you give?" " I don't 
know ; what shall I give ?" Mr. Hathaway, I think, stated that 



531 

such a diagram as that would be an aid to him ; he could 
show that, and say : " There, that is what we ought to get ;" 
a great many times a stranger would come in, and say to me : 
" I don't know what is the price," and I would say, " there is 
no price on that pew ; please give as much as you are willing 
to give ;" very often I would say, " You have attended church 
before ; how much did you give before ? are you willing to 
give just as much ?" whatever he said he was willing to give 
us, that was the price, that he named himself, that I received. 

Q. Who employed Mr. Hathaway as the financial agent of 
the Tabernacle ? A. I think I made the arrangement with 
him. 

Q. Do you remember the specific instructions he received 
in regard to renting the pews ? A.I don't think that he re- 
ceived any specific instructions. 

Q. Was he authorized, in case an applicant for a pew did 
not give him the amount designated on the diagram, he was to 
bring such influences to bear upon them, or was he to refuse 
them ? A. I never heard of any such instructions. 

Q. What do you mean by those instructions on the applica- 
tions ? A. I think I have explained it quite fully ; I said that 
when Mr. Hathaway represented that such an application 
would not, for certain reasons, be for the interests of the 
church to grant that application, the Board of Trustees would 
give advice ; sometimes they would say, " Just give it to him ;" 
sometimes they would say this thing, and sometimes that. 

Q. Were those endorsements, in every instance, which you 
put upon the application, brought upon those applications, 
the circumstances suggested by Mr. Hathaway ? A. As far as 
I remember ; the engagement of Mr. Hathaway I will read : 

" November 5th, 1874. 

" The President was authorized to enter into a contract with 
Mr. I. W. Hathaway for attention to the subscriptions of the 
church, for support of the gospel, and for the collection of 
such subscriptions, at a compensation of $1,000 per annum, on 
subscriptions collected amounting in the aggregate to $10,000, 
and fifteen per cent, on all additional subscriptions collected." 

Those were the instructions which I received from the Board 
of Trustees to make with Mr. Hathaway ; his duties were 



532 



" Attention to subscribers of the church for support of the 
gospel" and " for the collection of such subscriptions." 

Q. Do you believe that that system that you are carrying 
on there is a free church system in the sense in which it was 
announced from the pulpit, Sabbath after Sabbath ? A. Yes, 
sir ; I think it is fully up to the idea that was announced from 
the pulpit. 

Q. Did you ever know an instance in which a person was 
necessitated to vacate a pew in the Tabernacle, because they 
could not or would not pay the amount the Trustees, through 
their agent, demanded ? A. I don't know ; I don't call to mind 
a single instance in which a person was turned out of his pew 
because he could not pay. 

Q. Not necessitated to take a less^desirable pew ? A. I 
don't know of a single instance ; I will say here, that some 
that came under that — I shall not mention the names — but I 
know of a great many instances where people have lost their 
property where they have been paying liberally toward the 
support of the gospel in that church ; I know of one instance 
where a man was paying $300, liberally, voluntarily, have re- 
ceived his subscription myself, and he met with reverses ; he 
was not disturbed ; and I can mention a great many such 
cases. 

Q. Was a copy of the regulations adopted by the Trustees 
sent to every applicant when his application was received? 
A. As far as I know. 

Q. The instruction of your agent was, and the understand- 
ing on the part of the Trustees was, that a copy of these regu- 
lations should be put in the hand of every applicant? A. 
Those were the blanks furnished by the pew committee for 
that purpose. 

Q. I have one other question to ask, Mr. Corwin ; I want 
you to give your explanation of it, if you please ; how do you 
reconcile the method practically carried on in the Tabernacle, 
to which testimony was given here by Mr. Hathaway, with the 
announcement made from the pulpit that your church was a 
free church ? A. I think I have stated ; 1 don't get the pith of 
your question. 

Q. I am simply trying your method? A. I wish to say that 



I don't propose to antagonize anybody ; I am speaking simply 
of my own conduct, not anybody else's. 

Q. Were the Trustees familiar with the method adopted by 
Mr. Hathaway in renting the pews ? A. I am not going to 
state here whether Mr. Hathaway exceeded his instruc ions or 
not, for this reason, sir — the last time I met with the Board 
of Trustees was, I think, May 1st, 1876 ; and this seems to 
have been all matters which arose after that time ; I have got 
no charges to make against anybody. 

Q. I ask you this question, you were a Trustee when Mr. 
Hathaway was in the employ of the church ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were the Trustees familiar with that method of assign- 
ing pews? A. I have no doubt the pew committee was. 

Q. Were you ever present at a meeting of the Board of 
Trustees when the Trustees remonstrated with Dr. Talmage 
against his giving out that notice on the ground of a manifest 
moral obliquity ? A. Whose testimony are you referring to 
now ? 

Q. Mr. Pearsall's ? A. I was never present that I know of. 

Q. You heard his testimony ? A. I heard Mr. Hathaway's 
testimony at the meeting at Mr. Hobbs' house ; I was present 
there. 

Q. Did you hear them remonstrate there? A. I did not. 

Q. Did you ever hear the Trustees or any members of 
them ? A. We have very olten said to Dr. Talmage, " If 
you will allow us to rent the pews we will have a larger rev- 
enue." 

Q. Did any of the Trustees urge it on the ground that it 
was not honorable or right or moral for them to proceed in 
the method in which they were doing ? A. Never anything 
in my hearing. 

Q. You never heard Mr. Pearsall remonstrate with Dr. 
Talmage ? A. Mr. Pearsall's testimony was that, when Dr. 
Talmage called on him to join the church he remonstrated 
with him ; I was not present. 
By Mr. Ceosby : 

Q. Did you evor hear any of the Trustees confer with Dr. 
Talmage in any way in regard to the inconsistency of his 
notices with the practical part? A. No, sir; I believe that 



534 



Dr. Talm age's plan of disposing of the pews is a righteous 
plan ; I believe it is a free church ; I believe that it provides 
people with church homes who would not get church homes 
without it. 

Q. You said your plau was to give the choic e of pews ; you 
would say, "Here is a pew, and there is a pew and here is a 
pew," when people apply ; did you give the choice of all un- 
occupied pews, without reference to the appearance of the ap- 
plicants, or what you might happen to know of their means? 
A. As far as I am concerned about that, I will say this, I 
don't suppose we surrendered all our discretion in the mat- 
ter ; I suppose we used the best judgment we could use; 
that is my impression. 

Q. Do you say positively, so far as you know, that the seats 
were assigned always without reference to the dollar question ? 
A. So far as I know, the seats have been assigned without 
reference to the dollar question. 

Q. Who was to be the judge of the ability to pay ? You 
said no one was ever compelled to change his pew who could 
not pay the amount. Who was the judge of the ability of the 
person to pay ? A. I don't think that question ever came up* 

Q. You decided it, did you not ? A. I did not. 

Q. I mean you Trustees? A. Decided what ? 

Q. Whether the person could pay the amount? A. I don't 
think that question ever came up ; I don't think that question 
has ever been a question that has been discussed — no fixed 
rules. 

Q. No ; but, according to your testimony a few moments 
ago, you said the seats were assigned freely in this way ; and 
that no one had ever been turned out of his pew because he 
could not afford to pay the amount that the pew ought to get. 
A. I say that simply and squarely, whatever the language will 
import, with all the meaning of it. 

Q. You judged of the ability as to whether he could or 
could not? A. • I don't think anybody has ever been turned 
out. 

Q. Did Captain Latham say he could not afford to pay the 
amount demanded of him for his pew? A. I remember there 
was some discussion on Captain Latham. 



535 



Q. Did lie say be could not afford to pay the amount de- 
manded of him for his pew ? A.I had no conversation with 
him myself. He had some conversation with Mr. Hathaway. 

Q. Was it ever brought to you as information by Mr. Hath- 
away? A. I remember it being brought up before the Board 
of Trustees. 

Q. That Captain Latham had said he could not afford to pay 
that ? A. I have not said that. 
Presbytery adjourned. 

J. MILTON GEEENE, 

Stated Clerk 



Apeil 17th, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 17th, at 3 p. M. 

After a few words of explanation by the Moderator, two 
letters addressed to the Presbytery were read, one by Dr. Tal- 
mage, the other by I. W.*Hatnaway, in which each declined 
to vindicate his own character at the expense of the other. 

After the reading of the letters the following resolution was 
offered : 

Resolved, — That in view of the letters addressed to the Pres- 
bytery by Kev. Dr. Talmage and He v. I. W. Hathaway, Speci- 
fication IY. be dismissed. 

After a long debate the vote was taken, the ayes and nays, 
being called, and the resolution was lost by a vote of 14 to 16. 

Ayes — Baldwin, Cuyler, Drake, Davison, Evans, Martin, 
St. John, A. Taylor, Wood, Peck, Williamson, Pieison, L im- 
beer, Sexton — 14. 

Nays— Bridges, Foote, Halsey, McClelland, Nelson, C. H. 
Taylor, Yan Dyke, Wells, Bulkley, Eaton, Babcock, Hazard, 
Young, McDougall, Morse, Burger — 16. 

It was then Resolved, — That in view T of the letters received 
from Dr. Talmage and from Rev. I. W. Hathaway, we hear no 
more testimony on Specification IY., either direct or indirect. 

The ayes and nays being called, after considerable debate, 
the resolution was lost by a vote of 13 to 17. 

Ayes — Baldwin, Drake, Davison, Evans, St. John, A. Taj lor 
Wood, Peck, Williamson, Pierson, Laimbeer, Sexton, Young — 
13. 



536 



Nays — Bridges, Cuyler, Foote, Halsey Martin, McClelland, 
Nelson, C. F. Taylor, Van Dyke, Wells, Eaton, Bulkley, Bab- 
cock, Hazard, McDougall, Morse, Burger — 17. 

Presbytery adjourned. 

J. M. GREENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



April 18th, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 18tb, at 3 p. M. 

Mr. B. R. Corwin was re- called and testified as follows : 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. You testified, day before yesterday, in regard to a lease 
which you secured for the Christian at Work Company, from the 
Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, and I ask you whether 
you secured that with the expectation that the paper was to 
last for five years ; yon said, " I secured the lease on the best 
" terms possible ; the paper was trfen paying $2,000 a year J 
" the first year's lease was $880 the second year was $1,000 
" the third and fourth years it was $1,250 and the lease was 
" an asset, and the moment it was signed was worth more than 
" it agreed to pay by anybody that held it ;" now, sir, I want 
to ask you whether that was the object with which you secured 
that lease, that it might be an asset in the hands of the com- 
pany ? A. The object of my securing the lease was for the in- 
terest of the Christian at Work Publishing Company; no other 
object. 

Q. Was it for the occupancy of the room, or for the asset ? 
A. It was for the object which the lease specified. 

Q. Was it for the room to be occupied? A. I have the lease 
here, sir ; it will speak for itself ; I have since found it, and 
the information which the lease carries ; extract from a letter 
dated from Ilion, February 5th. 

Q. Will you let me see it ? A. Presently. 

Mr. Crosby — I want to see the letter, before the witness 
reads it. 

The Witness — Part of it is private. 

Q. Speaking of the mail list of the Christian at Work ; 
that mail list which* was in the possession of the defence ; you 
said, " I have seen a letter from Mr. Howard, he says that he 



537 



" got it from a gentleman in the west ; " to whom was that 
letter written, in which you saw that extract ? A. To Dr. 
Talmage. 

Q. Who was the agent? A. I do not know, sir. 

Q. Was the name in the letter? A. I do not think it was. 

Mr. Millard — I object to any evidence about the letter ; if 
the letter is m reach, I cannot say what it will be. 

Mr. Crosby — Very well, I had just as lief call for the letter. 

Mr Millard— Have you got that letter ? 

The Witness — I have not. 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Do you know whether C. D. Paine was that agent ? A. 
I do not. 

Q. Will you swear that the mail list of the Christian at Worh, 
which was sent to the defence, was not one of those which 
was sent to your house ? A. I will. 

Q. Will you swear that none of the lists which were sent to 
your house afterwards went to Chicago ? A. I will. 

Q. Will you swear that none of those lists fell into the 
hands of Warren S. Sillcocks? A. I will. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage ever ask you to send one of those lists 
to Warren S. Sillcocks, or anything to that effect ? A. H 
never did. 

Q. When, and where, did you last see one of those lists ? 
A. In my desk. 

Q. You have said in effect, I believe, that Dr. Talmage 
threatened to resign, if the pews were rented ; something to 
that effect ; did he not threaten to resign on other occasions, 
and for other causes ? A. Not to my knowledge. 

Q. Did he not lay down his resignation at a meeting of the 
Trustees and elders, one Sunday morning in the Lay College, 
and say he resigned, unless the Trustees signed a certain 
paper ? A. He did not. 

Q. Now, Mr. Corwin, I have got only one more question to 
ask, I expect ; did not you, and District Attorney Tenney, and 
Mr. Millard, and Dr. Talmage, meet at Dr. Talmage's house 
on Tuesday evening, and in the presence of a stenographer 
rehearse the direct testimony, question and answer, which you 
have given here ? A. We did not. 
68 



538 



Q. Did you and Mr. Tenney, and Dr. Spear and Dr. Tal- 
mage or any others meet at Dr. Talmage's house on Tuesday 
evening, or on any other evening and in the presence of a 
stenographer, rehearse your direct testimony, which you have 
given? A. I have answered once for all, I have rehearsed 
my testimony to nobody ; no rehearsal. 
By Mr. Wood : 

Q. I was about to ask, if in his endeavours to carry out 
Dr. Talmage's plao of a free church, he met with any 
obstacles existing, and if so, what were they ; I would like 
to hear that from hfm ; during the examination, that thought 
has been pressed upon my mind ? A. The main obstacle was 
the obstacles presented in the way of caricature and mis- 
representation coming from those from whom we had a right 
to expect sympathy and support ; I will name one obstacle 
that comes to my mind now ; it was the obstacle of the 
" Augustine " letter, of November 4th, published in the 
Presbyterian, which presented our credit to the world, as pay- 
ing one per cent, a month, and as having rolled up within five 
years an increased debt of over seventy thousand dollars, and 
of having an indebtedness of over a hundred ; it was an awful 
and shocking obstacle. 
By Dr. Van Dyke : 

Q. What was the debt of the Tabernacle on the 4th day of 
November, 1876 ? A. I have not the books here, to give the 
exact debt ; it was not a hundred thousand dollars. 

Q. Was there, at that time, a printed circular for the use of 
members of the Board of Trustees, in which the debt was 
distinctly stated? A. I think there was, I think I have it 
here. 

Q. Be good enough to state what the circular says ? A. Is 
that the circular ? (Handing paper to Dr. Yan Dyke.) 

Q. Be gcod enough to show what the debt is, according to 
that ? A. That circular shows a floating indebtedness, which 
was afterwards changed into a bonded indebtedness of $38,- 
088.02, and a bonded debt of $35,000. 

Q. That is all the paper ? A. That was every item, accord- 
ing to the treasurer's report. 

Q. Did that include the first and second mortgage on the 



539 



old brick building, commonly called the old Tabernacle? A. 
If you refer to the second mortgage, we never included that in 
our indebtedness. 

Q. "Was there a second mortgage ? A. There was. 

Q. Kegularly recorded ? A. Begularly recorded. 

Q. Was not the building called the Tabernacle responsible 
for the debts on the brick building ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You say trie debt on the main building was $70,000, you 
make it? A.I make it $38,083.02. 

Q. On the Tabernacle ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was the debt at that time on the old brick church? 
A. I do not remember now, at one time it was $35,000. 

Q. In the month of October, 1876 ? A. I don't remember 
whether it was then, or had been reduced at that time. 

Q. If the debts on the two buildings were recorded, and 
being a debt against two parties, would not that make it oyer 
$100,000 ? A. It was not a debt of two parties. 

Q. Answer the question ; if those two debts were counted as 
belonging to one party, would not it make it over $100,000 ? 
A. You might just as well count the debt on this church. 

Q. That is not an answer to this question? A. That is all, 
sir. 

By Mr. Davidson : 

Q. I should like to understand whether the witness ever en- 
deavoured to explain to "Augustine," in regard to this error; 
to correct this error if there was one ; if he did not, why not ? 
A. I did try to explain ; I wrote to Dr. Mutchrnore, who had 
accepted the hospitality of my house, and told him that I 
thought before publishing that letter, he should have written 
to me, and I asked him who " Augustine " was with the ex- 
pressed wish that I might call upon " Augustine," and tell 
him that he had been imposed upon ; he replied back that he 
had written to " Augustine " for permission, and I have his 
letter here ; and in the meantime a communication was re- 
ceived, of which I knew nothing : " November 10th, 1876 ; Dear 
"Sir: Yours of the llth'8, is before me; we have in 
" type for next week's issue a reply to Augustine from your 
" City, which covers the point of your inquiry ; " my letter to 
him was : " Dr. Mutchrnore : Dear Sir — It seems to me fair to 



540 



" grant my little request, to know who Augustine is ; it Was 
" that I might see him personally, and convince him that he 
" had been imposed on ; for this purpose, I renew my request, 
" and trust you will grant it ; is it right, is it fair, to assault 
" the Church of Christ under a nom de plume, and let some- 
" body else correct the bad impression ; I wanted Augustine 
" to correct his own evil work ; will he do it ; please oblige, 
" very earnestly and sincerely yours, &c, &c." 
By Dr. Yan Dyke : 

Q. "When did you first learn that I was the author of that let- 
ter, signed " Augustine ?" A. I have not known for sure that 
Dr. Yan Dyke was the author of "Augustine " until recently. 

Q. Didn't you know that I acknowledged my responsibility 
for the letter on the 9th day of November, five days after it 
appeared? A. I did not know that you acknowledged your- 
self to be " Augustine." 

Q. Did not Dr. Talmage tell you that he had been to my 
study, and that I told him I was responsible for the letter ? 
A. I do not think that you acknowledged that " Augustine " 
was Dr. Yan Dyke. 

Q. Well, sir ; it is not the question whether "Augustine" 
was Dr. Yan Dyke ; was I not responsible for the letter ? A. 
That was not satisfactory to me. 

Q. Didn't you know that I had asked Dr. Talmage for per- 
mission to go to you for the facts and figures in the case ? A. 
I do not remember. 

Q. Well, I remember? A. I did not at the time of the writ- 
ing of these letters. 

Q. Did Dr. Mutch more reply that he had refused to have the 
name given up ? A. He stated tbat he had referred to "Au- 
gustine " for permission to disclose his name. 

Q. He never stated I refused ? A. He never gave me the 
name ; if he had I should have come to see Dr. Yan Dyke im- 
mediately. 

Q. Didn't you say at the time that letter appeared in the 
month of October, and immediately after, in the month of No- 
vember, that I was the author, of it ? A. I don't remember 
that I did ; it was my very strong impression that you were, 
sir. 



541 

Q. And you never, in any way, undertook to correct my mis- 
take ? A. I was bound first to make sure ; I was not going to 
call on Dr. Van Dyke, and then have him tell me you have 
come to the wrong place. 

Q. You had doubt in your mind whether I did write it ? A. 
I didn't know whether you did or not. 

Q. Have you not ascertained that I was the author of that 
article ? A. I think very likely I have. 

Q. How did you ascertain that I was the author of that 
article ? A. Because I have been repeatedly told that you 
were ; I have been told by other newspaper men that you 
were. 

Q. And you did not doubt from the Eagle that I was the 
author of that article? A. I did doubt, or I should not have 
written to Dr. Mutchmore ; I felt very strongly, I living so near 
to you, that before writing that letter, you certainly would 
have given me an opportunity of correcting or certifying the 
facts. 

Q. And when you found out I was the author, state how it 
was you never came near me to correct it ? A. It was too 
late then, the damage had been done, no use of correcting it 
now. 

Q. Did you see the card put in the paper, November the 
18th or 25th, in which I said I withdrew the statement in as 
much as it had been impeached ? A. I never did ; I never 
saw the " Augustine " letter until I saw it during this trial. 

Q. Never saw the letter ? A. No, sir. 

Q. How do you know it appeared ? A. Numberless persons 
told me of the shocking report it contained. 

Q. Did they tell you I was the author of the letter? A. 
No, sir. 

" The pressure of very important business makes it impossible 
for me, at this late date, to give the time necessary for a care- 
ful reading of my testimony in Dr. Talmage's trial ; having 
waited to be called just six months to read and correct. Hav- 
ing read three pages of my cross-examination, the answers in 
several instances being found incorrect, I therefore sign it at 
the request of the committee, to show my respect for Presby- 



542 

terial authority, without vouching for the correctness of the 
record. " 
Oct. 18, 1879. 

B. E. COBWIN. 

At the close of Mr. Corwin's examination, 

Mrs. Talmage was called, and being duly sworn, testified as 
follows : 
By Dr. Speak : 

Q. Were you present at the interview which occurred be- 
tween your husband and Mr. Corwin in reference to the pub- 
lication of his (Corwin's) open letter, which has been read in 
evidence, in reply to the open letter of Mr. Hallock ; were you 
present ? A. I was. 

Q. Will you please to state what was said by both Mr. Cor- 
win and your husband at that interview? A. Mr. Corwin 
came to our house, early one morning, and he had a written 
statement in answer to Mr. Hallock's statement which had ap- 
peared in the paper ; he read the statement to my husband, 
and asked him if it was true ? my husband replied : " I would 
not publish that." Mr. Corwin said : " I did not ask you that 
question ; I want to know if it is true." My husband again 
replied : " It's true, but I don't believe in chasing lies ; I would 
never reply to that statement." Mr. Corwin then said : " I 
did not come to you for advice ; I intend to publish that state- 
ment, and I ask if you will endorse it, as being true ?" Mr. 
Talmage did endorse it, and I think Mr. Corwin published it. 

Q. Do you remember, Mrs. Talmage, anything that Dr. 
Talmage said in particular, on the evening on which his con- 
nection with the Christian at Work was severed ; you recollect 
the evening, do you ? A. I do. 

Q. Will you please to rehearse in the hearing of the court 
as concisely and fully as you can, what transpired there, after 
his retirement? A. I remember this one incident, very dis- 
tinctly ; my husband walked up and down the room and said : 
" There is one passage of Scripture that is continually in my 
"mind;" I said : "What is that?" be said, "It has been in 
" my mind, all the way coming home ; my soul is escaped as 
" a bird from the snare of the fowler ; the snare is broken, 
" and I have escaped ; " I remember this distinctly, because 



543 



he said it so many times ; we prayed over the matter a great 
deal, and he said : " Don't you think this is in answer to 
prayer ? " and I said I did ; it could not have been late ; the 
children were studying about the room, and he put his hands 
behind his back and walked up and down, and said: "My 
soul is filled with gratitude to God," and then, every once in a 
while, as though engaged, he put his hand behind his back 
and he said : " My soul is escaped as a bird from the snare of 
" the fowler ; the snare is broken, and I have escaped ; " he 
said it, many, many times that night, and again through the 
next day, he stated the same thing and said : " Don't you 
think it is in answer to prayer." 

Q. That concludes the statement you have to make ? A. 
That is the principal incident that I remember that night. 

Q. Do you recollect about what time he came home that 
night ? A. I could not tell the hour by the clock, but I re- 
member that it must have been early ; the children were in 
the habit of retiring about eight o'clock, and we had tea at 
that time, and the children were studying their lessons when 
he made this remark. 

Q. So that it was not late in the evening ? A. It could not 
have been late. 

Q. Was he at home all night, that night? A. Oh, yes, sir. 

Q. Had your husband, to your knowledge, been desirous of 
getting out of the Christian at Work for a long time prior to 
his leaving ? A. Yes, sir ; he had been very unhappj^ and 
restive under Mr Remington's influences. 

Q. Please to state, if you know the reason, why he did not 
leave sooner than he did ? A. Dr. Talmage had a very strong 
attachment to many of the subscribers who had come in 
during his administration of the Christian at Work ; he had 
had numberless letters which they had written to him telling 
him how much good his sermons had done them, and he was 
in constant receipt of these, and he felt sorry to part with 
them ; that was one reason. 

Q. That completes your statement upon that point, does it ? 
A. I think so. 

Q. Is your husband in the habit of consulting with you on 
his business matters ; is that his general habit ? A. He is, 



544 



Q. Was he in the habit of consulting with you in reference 
to matters pertaining to the Christian at Work? A. He did 
consult with me always. 

Q. It was a frequent thing with him, was it ? A. Yes, sir ; 
we consulted nearly every day, the latter part of his connec- 
tion with the paper. 

Q. Now in these interviews with your husband relating to 
this subject, what were you in the habit of saying to him ? 
A. I felt that I was incompetent to give advice with regard to 
the minutiae of the matter, and so I used to say to him : " De 
" Witt, I don't feel able to tell you what to do in this matter, 
" but if you go to God, in every step that you take, you will 
" never make a mistake ; " and then it seems to me every day I 
used to quote this passage of Scripture to him, because we be- 
lieved in prayer : " If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of 
" God, who giveth to all men liberally;" I said, " I am very 
sure you can make no mistake ;" I would like to say in regard 
to this matter, it is a very painful experience for me to tell 
what happens between my husband, myself and God, but in 
stating this matter of what I knew, they said that this testi- 
mony was to come before a body of men who believed in 
prayer, and that everything that had a bearing on the matter 
ought to be presented, and that is the reason why I go into 
the hallowed secrets of our home and our connection with 
God. 

Q. Were you in the habit, Mrs. Talmage, of seeing the cor- 
respondence between your husband and Mr. Remington ? A. 
Yes, sir ; I opened all my husband's correspondence. 

Q. All his letters ? A. All his letters that came ; I opened 
them, and sorted them ; many of them he never sees ; I answer 
them according to my own judgment ; other matters that it is 
necessary for him to see, I present to him, and he often gives 
me directions, just a word in which to answer them. 

Q. Then his correspondence in this line is very voluminous, 
and you relieve him in this way from the burdens ? A. I try to. 

Q. Now, what was the general nature of many of Mr. Rem- 
ington's letters to Dr. Talmage, which you saw? A. They 
were irritating, exasperating, depressing. 

Mr. Ceosby — I dislike to interrupt ; I would like to know 



545 



whether there are any of those letters that are described as 
Mrs. Talmage describes them ; whether there are any in exist- 
ence ? 

Dr. Speak — The answer of Dr. Talmage through his wife is, 
that they are all destroyed. 

Mr. Ceosby — Are they all destroyed? 

Dr. Spear — That is his answer ; that it is so. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. How do yon account for the friendly tone of some of Dr. 
Talrnage's letters to Mr. Remington, when, as you say, his letters 
were exasperating ; do you get the point of my question? A. 
Yes, sir ; would it be allowable that I should explain some of 
Dr. Talrnage's peculiarities ; I should have to do that in order 
to answer the question. 

Q. You may answer the question in your own way. 
A. Dr. Talmage seems utterly incapable of retaining the 
lemembrance of any wrong ; I say a grudge ; lie cannot 
remember it ; I literally mean, he forgets it ; as an illustra- 
tion, if a friend does him a wrong, the next time he meets him, 
he is sure to say " How are you old fellow ?" just the same 
as if he had never done him an injury, and one time I 
seriously remonstrated with him ; I said, *' I cannot under- 
stand that phase of your character ; it sometimes seems 
to me as if it was insincere ;" lie made this answer, and I 
never remonstrated since ; he said, " I am made that way ; I 
" cannot remember to be mad at anybody ;" and he said, "it 
" may be a weakness, but would you advise me to try and cul- 
" tivate a different disposition ;" I thought a moment, and 
then I remembered that it was Christ's way, and, though I did 
not say it to him, I thought in my heart, I was glad if there 
was one person w T ho could not only forgive but forget; so, with 
regard to Mr. Remington's letters, I doubt if you find a letter 
in this whole lot of Dr. Talrnage's which has anything other 
than a kindly spirit ; and when Mr. Remington would some- 
times write that he was doing so much for the paper, Dr. Tal- 
mage is always inclined to give him credit, and more than 
credit, so I presume that his letters were always friendly ; I 
have known him bometimes, under the indignation of the mo- 
ment, to write a pretty severe letter ; he shows me his letters ; 
69 



546 



then his habit is., to put it in his pocket, and I notice he al- 
ways burns it before the end of the week. 

Q. Now, I will call jour attention, Mrs. Talmage, to specifi- 
cation 5 ; do you remember the circumstances of your hus- 
band telegraphing to John F. Talmage, in reference to his sub- 
scription for the liquidation of the church debt ; you recall that 
scene, do you ? A. I do. 

Q. Will you tell the court, as clearly and as fully as you 
can, just the circumstances of that matter? A. These tele-, 
grams were sent at the time that we attempted to raise the 
church debt ; Mr. John F. Talmage was President of the Board 
of Trustees, and he was in Baltimore at that time, and also 
Mr. Hobbs ; Mr. Talmage felt — I do not know whether others 
did — that if $25,000 could be raised ^in the Board of Trustees, 
the balance of the money could be quite easily raised among 
the congregation, but he felt that that $25,000 must be raised 
in the Board of Trustees before he was willing to start in the 
matter at all ; so he sent a telegram to Mr. John Talmage and 
Mr. Hobbs, asking them if they would be willing each to give 
$5,000 provided all the rest of the money was raised ; the answer 
came back, they they did not feel able to do so. We were 
very much disappointed, Dr. Talmage particularly so, and he 
said : " I do not know what to do ; I do not feel like under- 
" taking this unless the $25,000 is raised in the board." Finally 
he said : " I will tell you what I will do, if you approve. I 
" will send a telegram to John Talmage, and tell him that if he 
" and Mr. Hobbs will do their very best — give everything that 
" they are able to — I will make up the balance to them." I 
said : " I do not think you are able," because he had promised 
$5,000 already. Then Dr. Talmage brought his fist violently 
down on the table and said : " I would give every cent of my 
" salary for one year to have that church debt raised, and I 
" will do it, too, if you are willing." I thought we were not 
able to do it, but Dr. Talmage went and itemized how he could 
support his family through the year, provided they accepted 
this telegram, and Dr. Talmage said it would be a matter of 
domestic economy ; I finally consented to do so ; I was williug 
to make any sacrifice, but I made this remark : " If you make 
" such sacrifices the people won't understand that you are 



547 

■ making as great sacrifices as they are." He said again : " I 
" don't care anything about any credit in this matter at all. 
" All I want is to have the church debt raised." Well, I was 
willing, and he made out the telegram and read it to me, and I 
said : " I don't think it would be pleasant for these gentlemen, 
" Mr. Talmage and Mr. Hobbs, to have it known that you 
" helped them out. Perhaps you had better give them to un- 
" clerstand that this will be a matter just between ourselves 
" and themselves." So Mr. Talmage said : " I will put the 
" word privately in. Do you think that would do ?" Said I : 
" Do you think they would understand that ?" He says : " You 
" know you cannot put everything in a telegram." So he read 
it to me again in which the word " privately " was inserted, and 
I said " I guess it will do," and the telegram was sent ; I was 
the one that suggested the word "privately," and those were 
the circumstances under which it was suggested. 

Q. That describes the scene ; that is, Dr. Talmage sent the 
telegram, and the declinature came, and then this conversation 
between yourself and your husband transpired before sending 
the second telegram ? A. Yes, sir ; he made out the second 
telegram while we were talking, and sent it then. 

Q. The sending of the second telegram was the result of this 
mutual conference between you and your husband ? A. Yes, 
sir ; entirely so. 

Q. Now I will call your attention to the sixth specification ; 
Mr. Fearsall says in bis testimony that Dr. Talmage agreed to 
make a publication from the platform that the Trustees were 
not to blame, in refusing the use of the Tabernacle for Mr. 
Morgan's concert, which would set the whole thing right, and 
that he did not do it ; please to state if you know all the cir- 
cumstances connected with that matter? A. Mrs. Morgan 
came to our house to see Dr. Talmage ; he was ver}^ busy at 
the time, and she told him that she was desirous of giving a 
concert in the Tabernacle ; a sort of complimentary 
concert it was, for Mr. Morgan's benefit ; and that she 
had applied to the Trustess, and that they had declined 
to give it to her — the building I mean — and she wanted 
Dr. Talmage to intercede with the Trustees, to see if 
they would not allow her to have the building for the occa- 



548 



sion ; Dr. Talmage was willing that sho should have the build- 
ing, and would be glad to do so provided the Trustees were 
willing, because that was their prerogative ; he had nothing to 
do with the building ; she merely asked him to state it as a 
favor ; he said he would do what he could, but he was so busy 
he forgot all about it ; so Mrs. Morgan again came to remind 
him of it, and again he forgot it, and the third time I conclud- 
ed I would help her out ; so she wrote a note to the Board of 
Trustees, which I took and gave them ; I don't think Dr. Tal- 
mage knew anything about it ; I took it one Sunday night to 
church, and sent it to Mr. Sillcocks ; Mr. Sillcocks came to me 
and said, " Mrs. Talmage, we cannot allow Mrs. Morgan to 
have the church ; " I think he said that they gave $600.00 ex- 
tra to Mr. Morgan so that he would not have any benefit, but 
I am not sure with regard to the sum ; that was Sunday ; the 
next Monday Dr. Talmage went away ; Mrs. Morgan gave her 
concert in Mr. Beecher's church, and by some means the 
papers criticised our Trustees quite severely for not allowing 
Mr. Morgan to have the use of our church ; Dr. Talmage was 
absent at the South about three weeks ; on his return the 
Trustees spoke to him with regard to this matter and said, 
" We have been quite severely criticised in the paper for not 
" allowing Mr. Morgan to have the use of our Tabernacle ; " 
Well, says Dr. Talmage, " I will stand by the Trustees in that 
" matter ; they have the right to let any one have the Taber- 
" nacle, or not, as they think best ; " I think it was Mr. Pear- 
sall said, would I13 be willing to state that in the pulpit, on the 
platform ; I think he said that ; Dr. Talmage said, " Certainly 
I would ; " but immediately after this came the great contro- 
versy with regard to retaining Mr. Morgan or allowing him to 
go, and I forgot to remind Dr. Talmage anything about it, and 
it never entered into his head from that time to this, and that 
is the reason that it was forgotten, and that is the specification 
Mr. Pearsall presented as an evidence of Dr. Talmage's un- 
truth. 

Q. Can you explain the seeming vacillation of Dr. Talmage's 
feelings towards persons with whom he has been in contro- 
versy, at one time criticising, and at the other time approving ; 
I will put to you this general question ; the answer which you 



549 



gave in regard to Mr. Remingtou, would that be the answer 
to this question ? A. That would be the same answer. 

Q. Do you desire to repeat it ? A. Do you wish me to re- 
peat it ? 

Q, The question is this ; can you explain the seeming vacil- 
lation of Dr. Talmage's feelings towards persons with whom lie 
has been in controversy, at one time criticising them, and at- 
another approving ; the apparent inconsistency ? A. He might 
criticise, if it just came out the very moment when the offense 
came, but if you give him a few hours afterwards, he would 
not criticise at all; he would be thinking of something friendly 
w 7 ith regard to him. 

Q. And the language that you apply with reference to Mr. 
Remington would apply generally to all parties ? A. Yes, sir; 
that is his peculiar characteristic ; he calls it his weakness. 

MRS. TALMAGE. 

At the close of Mrs. Talmage's testimony the Rev. Dr. Tal- 
mage was called, and being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

By Dr. Spear : 

Q. In what year did you become the editor of the Christian 
at Work? A. 1873. 

Q. For how long a period were you at that time engaged ? 
A. For fifteen years. 

Q. You had a contract ? A. By contract signed by the 
President and Secretary of the company. 

Q. When did you cease to be editor of the Christian at 
Wrrk ? A. When the issue of October 9, 1876, had arrived at 
its destination. 

Q. What was the financial condition of the paper during the 
ast year that you were connected with it as editor ? A. Very 
nuch embarrassed. 

i Q. You makft that general statement ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember any interview you had with Mr. Hal- 
ock at Major Corwin's house on March 6th, 1876 ? A. I do. 

Q. Or about that time ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Will you please tell the court what was the object and 
•urport of that interview ? A. It seemed that we had come 
b a stand sti'l in the paper ; Mr. Remington had told us that 



550 



he would see the paper through the month of February, but no 
further ; the month of March bad arrived ; I remember having 
in my mind consideration as to whether it was worth virile to 
write any editorials at all further, and as we seemed to have 
come to an impassable obstacle, and I had heard Mr. Halloek 
say either that he was disposed to purchase the paper, or that 
he had friends behind him who would purchase it, I sent him 
a note, which has been here in evidence, asking him to call at 
my house ; he called ; I think it was about seven o'clock in the 
evening, or eight o'clock ; I had an engagement at the Lay 
College that night ; he went with me, and from thence to 
Major Corwin's house. 

Q. Did you converse with him on your way from your house 
to the Lay College about the subject ? A. I suppose I did, for 
it was an all-absorbing subject to me ; we had made a large 
addition to our subscription list ; our newspaper had started 
up with prospects that we never before had ; everything was 
promising in the shape of subscriptions, and then this entire 
matter seemed about to stop for the lack of finances to con- 
duct the paper, and we had come into an engagement with all 
our subscribers ; those who had recently come in under Mr- 
Corwin's administration as publisher, and I had felt then, as I 
always felt, that an engagement of that kind is always one of 
a very delicate nature, as a great many persons who subscribed 
for a religious newspaper are of moderate or small means, and 
it sometimes implies less bread on the table, the subscription 
for a religious paper ; we had added several thousand to this 
list of subscribers ; and now, if the paper was to stop then and 
there, great disappointment to those people. 

Q. What was the specific object of that interview at Major 
Corwin's house ; what were you aiming at ? A. I was hoping 
that he would purchase the paper, or that his friends would, 
and that instead of having a dead halt in the publication, he, 
purchasing it, would continue the publication of it. 

Q. Were you desirous to continue the Christian at Work? 
A. Very, indeed ; my name was at the head of the paper as 
editor, and Mr. Corwin also as publisher ; we felt it would be 
a great wrong to these subscribers if the paper should stop 
then and there. 



551 



Q. The possibility, and, indeed, the contingency of its stop- 
ping seemed to you to be impending right over the paper at 
that time? A. Oh, sir, it was immediate. 

Q. And that was the sole object of the interview ; the thing 
at which you were aiming ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, Dr. Talmage, do you know anything about an ad- 
vertisement for the sale of the Christian at Work having 
been published in the New York Herald and otlw papers on 
July 13, 1876, under the name of A. L. Ford ? A. I never 
knew anything of it until the beginning of this ecclesiastical 
trial. 

Q. That was introduced in evidence ; I suppose the court 
remembers it : I will not recall it ; were you consulted by any 
one as to this advertisement? A. I was not consulted, though 
I was editor, Trustee, and stockholder. 

Q. Then you saj 7 the first knowledge you had of it is since 
the commencement of this trial ? A. Yes, sir ; I saw it in one 
of these scrap-books. 

Q. Calling your attention to .another point. Do you remem- 
ber making a memorandum agreement with Mr. Dickinson in 
May, 1876— the 29th of May, 1876? A. I remember that 
agreement ; it was about the first of June or last of May ; it 
was at the close of the meeting of the General Assembly ; I had 
resolved to leave the paper then and there ; I went over to the 
office, wrote a good-bye editorial, had it put in type, when 
somehow it came to the attention of Mr. Dickinson, who was 
interested in the paper, and he represented himself as in some 
way speaking for Mr. Remington ; he requested me not to 
publish that farewell editorial, and not to leave the paper, then 
and there saying that it was a dull time always with news- 
papers during the summer and I had better tarry in the paper ; 
so he wrote an informal memorandum, putting the salary at a 
very low point, saying at the same time that I need do nothing 
in the paper unless I desired to do so. 

Q. And this memorandum is the agreement to which you- 
refer ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you, at the time of this memorandum agreement, 
say anything to Mr. Dickinson about your leaving the paper ? 
A. I did. 



552 



Q. What did you say ? A. I told him I should go in the 
fall, anyhow ; instead of giving him thirty days' notice, I gave 
him four months notice. 

Q. The memorandum agreement stipulated that either party 
could terminate the arrangement by such a notice ? A, Yes, 
sir. 

Q. xAnd you said you would give four months' notice instead 
of thirty days' ? A. Yes, sir ; Mr. Dickinson wrote the memo- 
randum, if I remember right. 

Q. Then, according to the terms of this agreement, you were 
entitled, were you not, to a thirty days' notice in the event of 
the sale of the paper ? A. I most certainly was entitled to it. 

Q. Did Mr. Remington or the company give you any such 
notice prior to the sale? A. Absolutely none. 

Q. Had you any notice at any time ? A. No notice. 

Q. Then you received no notice of the sale of the paper from 
any one connected with the corporation ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Remington, Dickinson, Bright or any of the gentlemen ? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Dr. Talmage, when did you first learn that the paper had 
been sold ? A. On the afternoon of October the 9th, between 
two and four o'clock ; I heard it in two ways, or discovered it 
in two ways. 

Q. You learned the fact about that ? A. I learned the fact ; 
yes, sir. 

Q. From whom did you get this information at this period 
to which you refer ? A. An employee of the office came to 
me and told me that the paper had been positively sold ; that 
he had seen the memorandum ; then I heard during the after- 
noon, in the adjoining room — I heard a conversation which 
implied the sale of the paper ; from my editorial chair I could 
hear conversation in the adjoining room, the glass doors not 
always being closed, and I inadvertently heard this conversa- 
tion. 

Q. Did you hear the whole — all that conversation, or only 
fragments ? A. Only fragments, and such as was confirmatory 
of the information that had been given to me by the employee. 

Q. Did you receive this information from the employee after 



553 



your interview with Mr. Hallock at the Astor House ? A. I 
did. 

Q. Which he has spoken of in his testimony ? A. Yes, sir ; 
yes sir, my remembrance is the same as Mr. Hallock in regard 
to the hour in which I had the interview with Mr. Hallock at 
the Astor House ; that was about VI o'clock. 

Q. Was this the first information that you had received that 
the paper was sold ? A. It was the first. 

Q. Do you recollect distinctly this interview with Mr. Hal- 
lock at the Astor House ? A. I do. 

Q. Mr. Hallock in his testimony says that he told you in his 
interview at the Astor House, October 9th, 1876, at the inter- 
view referred to, that he had bought the Christian at Work on 
October 7th, 1876 ; is that statement correct ? A. Mr. Hal- 
lock is mistaken in regard to that. 

Q. Please state to your best recollection what occurred at 
that interview ; what was it ? A. Mr. Hallock said that he 
thought of buying the paper ; he used the phrase that he had 
used in half a dozen conversations ; sometimes he would meet 
me on the ferry boat ; sometimes on the street corner, and I 
would say, "Well, Mr. Hallock, have you bought the paper?" 
He would say, " No, but I am thinking of it ;" that noon he 
said he thought of purchasing the paper, and he drew from his 
pocket a memorandum which, I think, has been offered in evi- 
dence, asking me to sign it ; a memorandum proposing that I 
become editor of the paper under his charge, and offering me a 
certain salary, but I declined to sign it. 

Q. You speak of this memorandum ; you recollect his show- 
ing it to you ? A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Did you read it? A. Either that or he read it to me. 

Q. Did you say to him that if he had presented that paper 
— this memorandum — a week before, you would have signed it ? 
A. I have no remembrance of such a remark as that on my 
part. 

Q. Did you ask him at this interview if he had bought the 
paper ? A. I did. 

Q. What did he reply ? A. He said he thought of buy- 
ing it. 

Q. He did not say " I have bought it ?" A. No, sir ; as my 
70 



V 



554 

letter will iudicate written that evening : " In case you buy 
it," I said 

Q. That is the letter you wrote to him ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Will you read it please ? 

The witness read the letter of October 9th, 1876, as follows : 
" Deae Me. Hallock : 

I have considered the offer you have made me of 
the editorial chair of the Christian at Work, in case you 
purchase it, and have concluded that it is my duty to decline 
it, and so I accept another position. 

Yours, etc., 

T. De WITT TALMAGE. 

Oct. 9, 1876." 

Q. This letter was written after the interview at noon in the 
Astor House? A. It was. 

Q. And in the phrase " offer" there you referred to that in- 
terview? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When did you write that letter ? A. I think on the even- 
ing of the 9th. 

Q. Can you tell where you wrote it ? A. I cannot. 

Q- What is your impression, if you have auy? A. I have 
no definite impression as to where I wrote it ; I had three or 
four places in New York among friends where I was accus- 
tomed to drop in, and I cannot recall the place. 

Q. Had Mr. Hallock told you that he had bought the pap3r 
— that it was his — would you in that letter have used the ex- 
pression, "in case you purchased it? " A. Oh, no. 

Q. What do you now think was in your mind when you 
said " in case you purchased it ; " What is your understanding 
of that lauguage ? A. The fact that he had not purchased it ; 
in my previous interview with him he had been speaking of 
the possibility of his purchasing it,- and by this I meant that 
he had not purchased it. 

Q. That he had not communicated that fact to you ? A. 
That he had not communicated that fact to me, I mean. 

Q. How soon after this Astor House interview on the 9th of 
October did you have any other interview with Mr. Hallock, if 
at all ? A. I think it was on Wednesday evening ; I would 
not be certain about that day. 



555 



Q. Where was it ? A. It was at my house ; I went to Bos- 
ton that week, and I think I went the next morning. 

Q. Which would be Tuesday morning ? A. Tuesday morn- 
ing, and I think I left Boston at half-past nine or ten o'clock 
in the evening, although I am not sure whether it was Tues- 
day or Wednesday evening that I saw Mr. Hallock at my own 
bouse ; it may have been that my engagement at Boston was 
a little later in the week. 

Q. Did he come of his own accord to your house ? A. Of 
his own accord. 

Q. You did not anticipate his coming ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did he manifest at this time any feeling of excitement or 
anger against you ? A. Nothing like anger ; it was an ani- 
mated conversation. 

Q. Was the interview substantially a pleasant and courteous 
interview ? A. Courteous, yes, sir. 

Q. What was the feeling displayed by Mr. Hallock ; what 
seemed to be the state of his mind ? A. Well, it is nearly 
three years now ; my remembrance is not very definite as to 
what expression of feeling was in his manner. 

Q. Did he express disappointment ? A. I think he was— I 
rather think that feeling was quite prominent ; I got the idea 
from his conversation that he would like to induce me to re- 
turn to the Christian at Work, from something that he said in 
reference to the salary he could have given ; I do not now re- 
member that he positively made a proposition ; indeed, I know 
he did not make a positive proposition, but the implication of 
the conversation was that he would like to have me back ; at 
any rate, I took that idea. 

Q. You received that impression from the conversation? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did he speak to you in terms of reproach and condem- 
nation at all ? A. I do not think he did ; at any rate, I re- 
ceived no such impression. 

Q. Then there was nothing angry or especially exciting in 
the interview between you ? A. Nothing angry. 

Q. Had you seen Mr. Hallock in the City Hall Park the day 
before he bought the Christian at Work, which would be the 
6th of October ? A. It may have been ; I saw Mr. Hallock at 



5S8 



different points, almost always with the same salutation, "Have 
you bought the paper ? " and almost always with the same an- 
swer, " I am thinking about it." 

A. The salutation on your part ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And the answer on his part that he was thinking about 
it ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That was the very common character -of the interviews ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did he say anything to you about paying you two thou- 
sand dollars salary, and not holding you to your terms to edit 
the paper for nothing for a year ? A. I have no remembrance 
of it ; I remember an occasion on which I stated to him — it 
was in the crisis of the paper, a severe crisis of the paper — " if 
" you will purchase this paper now, I will edit the paper a year 
" for nothing," and that was the time when we expected the 
paper to stop, and I thought any harbor in a storm. 

Q. Did you give him in any way the ground to infer that 
this was a continuous agreement to run on indefinitely ? A. 
Oh, no ; if he would take it then and there at that particular 
crisis, when everything seemed to promise shipwreck. 

Q. At that specific moment ? A. At that specific moment; 
that I will say now was the interview at Mr. Cor win's house. 

Q. It was after the interview with Mr. Hallock at the Astor 
House, and when you returned to the office of the Christian at 
Work, that you first learned that the paper had been actually 
sold? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You did not learn it from Hallock? A. No; it was 
somewhere between two and four o'clock, I should think. 

Q. Between two and four o'clock you obtained this informa- 
tion in the manner in which you have described ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. What did you do then ? A. I wrote " Good-bye, Old 
Friends." 

Q. That was your valedictory ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What else did you do? A. I took it, I think, between 
six and seven o'clock in the evening, and, after a conversation 
with General Howard, I took it to the press room and asked it 
to be put in — asked to have it put in. 

Q. Who did you see ? A. I think I saw Mr. Cobb. 



857 



Q. "What was his position ? A. I think he had at that time 
control of the room ; he was compositor. 

Q. You saw General Howard before giving this order ? A. 
I think I did ; yes, sir. 

Q. Who is this General Howard — what was he ? A. He is 
the publisher of the Advance aud editor also now. 

Q. Did you order the presses that night to be run all night ; 
did you leave any order in respect to the running of the press- 
es, and if so, what ? A. I did ; I knew from the feelings of 
Mr. Eemington toward me that that was my only opportunity 
of getting a valedictory into the paper ; I felt that if it did not 
go m at that time, it never would have gone in, and that I 
should be out of the paper, the people, the subscribers, not 
knowing where I was, my name dropped from the head of the 
paper, and the inquiries never answered as to where I was ; I 
will just explain that my feeling in that respect was very much 
as if I would leave my church in Brooklyn and accept a call in 
Chicago ; in order to put myself right, I must preach a fare- 
well sermon in my church in Brooklyn before going to Chicago ; 
it would be a very strange thing for me, having accepted a 
pastorate in Chicago, never having said anything to my own 
congregation, and I looked upon it in precisely that way — that 
I must say " good-bye" to the subscribers of the Christian at 
Work, and let them know where I was going. 

Q. That is what you meant and all you intended in the 
valedictory, so called ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you pay any money for the extra expense incurred by 
withdrawing the article and putting in your valedictory and run- 
ning the presses? A. I think, for the extra work, I paid twenty- 
five dollars ; I thought it was very cheap indeed for getting 
my valedictory before all my friends ; but my supposition that 
it would not have gone in was confirmed when I saw that the 
issue was arrested and destroyed. 

Q. You learned afterwards that it was arrested ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. On what day of the w T eek was ' the Christian at Work 
usually published ? A. The forms were made up on Monday 
night, I think, and on Tuesday went to press. 

Q. That is, the presses were started Tuesday morning ? A. 



558 



Yes, sir ; I am not so certain about it whether it was Monday 
or Tuesday, but I think that was the day. 

Q. You have just said that you thought it was then or never 
in the circumstances for the insertion of your valedictory? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Why were you anxious to publish your farewell to your 
subscribers ? A. Well, I had a very pleasant association with 
a good many people through the paper, and I wanted to say a 
very pleasant " good bye" to them, and I wrote that editorial 
in — if I know what a Christiauspirit is, I wrote it in a Christian 
spirit. 

Q. It was, so far as that is concerned, the work of a moment ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had you any idea of doing it when you left home in the 
morning ? A. No, oh no ; I expected to get out the paper. 

Q. At no other period? A. At no other period. 

Q. Your farewell address — that is, this valedictory — bears 
date October 8th instead of October 9th; will you explain 
that ? A. Yes, sir ; that was a mistake ; October the 8th is 
the Sabbath, and I never wrote any editorials on the Sabbath ; 
it was Monday. 

Q. Now, were you consulted in any way by Mr. Eemington, 
or by any officer of the corporation, concerning the sale of the 
Christian at Work to Mr. Hallock ? A. I was not consulted. 

Q. Your position at the time was that A. An editor, 

Trustee, stockholder. 

Q. And the entire operation was effected without your 
knowledge? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, as editor in chief ; you were such, were you not ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was your view of your right to control the columns 
of that paper ? A. Absolute control of the editorial columns, 
and until that issue should reach its place of destination, 
whether in Houston, Texas, or Bangor, Maine, or Liverpool, 
England. 

Q. You were the editor of that issue ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You so regarded it ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You spoke of information you received in regard to the 
sale of the paper in the manner that you alluded to ; to whom 



559 



did you suppose the paper was sold when you got this infor- 
mation ? A. I supposed the paper was sold to a gentleman in 
Philadelphia with whom Mr. Eemington had been in confer- 
ence, and I had no idea of Mr. Hallock's having purchased it 
until in the interview with him in my house on Wednesday 
night, or, perhaps, Tuesday night, but I think it was Wednes- 
day night. 

Q. What did you think of the transaction in its relation to 
you ? A. Surreptitious sale of the paper to drop me in injury 
and disgrace ; that was my opinion, and it is my opinion now. 

Q. That is the view you took of it at the time ? A. I did. 

Q. Dr. Talmage, much has been said upon this trial and 
elsewhere about an advertisement of the Advance in the 
Christian at Work in the issue that contained your farewell ; 
I want to know if you had anything to do with that insertion ? 
A. I did not originate the idea of the advertisement ; I did not 
take it to the Christian at Work office ; I did not order its in- 
sertion ; I never knew its contents until I heard it read in the 
opening of this ecclesiastical trial. 

Q. You had evidence, then, of the fact that it was to be 
inserted ? A. No, sir ; I will explain : I understood all along 
that there was to be what we called an " exchange advertise- 
ment," which all newspapermen are familiar with, the Advance 
putting in an advertisement of the Christian at Work and the 
Christian at Work putting in an advertisement of the Advance 
free of charge. 

Q. How did you learn the fact that it was anticipated that 
such a thing was to be done ? A. I got that from Gen. Howard 
in conversation at different times — business conversation. 
He told me he had made an arrangement of that kind some 
time before, I think. 

Q. Then you swear directly and definitely that you had no 
knowledge of, and was in no way a party to, the insertion of 
this advertisement ? A. I swear that. 

Q. You used this word " papier mache ;" what do you mean 
can you explain that to the court? A. Yes, sir ; there was a 
good deal of emphasis, I notice, put upon the supposition that 
our electrotype takes three or four hours for its making, and 
counsel on the part of the prosecution have given the idea that 



560 



it must have been known for a long time, or for some hours — 
this entire arrangement — since it was an electrotype, and 
must have some time for its manufacture ; the fact was that it 
was papier inache, which takes twenty minutes at the outside. 

Q. How do you know? A. How do I know? I learned 
that since this trial began fromJMr. Kraus, 21 Eose street, who 
made that papier mache, and I saw on bis books — he has on 
his books, and will come here if my counsel desire to have 
him, to testify that he made that papier mache ; and it is a 
temporary arrangement ; I suppose an electrotype costs many 
dollars, and this cost twenty cents. 

Q. You have not knowledge of the fact that he made it ; yon 
had no connection with him ; you did not make the bargain 
with him, and did not know anything about it? A. No; I 
never heard of it done until I saw him during this trial. 

Q. You have made the inquiry since the trial has been in 
progress ? A, Yes, sir ; after I heard all the remarks about 
this electrotype, and about the length of time it took. 

Q. Did yon have anything to do with putting a copy of the 
Christian at Work, containing your farewell, on the desk? A. 
I had not. 

Q. Of Brother Hawley, &c. ? A. I had not. 

Q. Did you have anything to do with putting a copy of the 
Christian at Work that did not contain jowx farewell address? 
A. I did not have anything to do with any of those puttings ; I 
never put a copy on the table in all my life. 

Q. You gave any. order in regard to that at all ? A. No, sir ; 
when I went I generally went about ten or twelve o'clock on 
Mondays. 

Q. Do you know anything about that? A. No, sir; never 
heard of it until I heard of it here on this trial. 

Q. Mr. Eemington, Mr. Bright, Mr. Hawley, Mr. Dickinson, 
and Mr. Hallock expressed the opinion that you put that ad- 
vertisement in the Christian at Work ; they expressed that 
opinion; now what have you to say about that opinion ? A. 
"Well, instead of characterizing it myself, I think I will leave 
that for their calmer moments. 

Q. It is false, is it not? A. It is false. 

Dr. Spear — I would like if the counsel for the prosecution 



561 



will produce the letter of Dr. Talinage of October 5th, 1876. 
[The letter is handed to the witness.] 
The Witness — That is my letter. 

Q. Will you have the kindness to read it ? A. [Heading.] 

" Brooklyn, October 5th, '76. 

" E. Kemington, Esq. : 

" Dear Sir, — I take this opportunity of respectfully informing 
you that my relations with the Christian at Work will cease 
one month from to-day, 

" Yours, &c, 

T. De WITT TALMAGE." 

Q. The date of that letter is what ? A. October 5th. 

Q. Mr. Remington has expressed the opinion that this letter 
was dated back, it being postmarked October 9th ; what have 
you to say in reference to that opinion ? A. He is mistaken ; 
I never dated a letter back in my life. 

Q. Intentionally ? A. I mean intentionally, of course ; I 
may, by mistake, often ; I may have done so ; I say this em- 
phatically, because I suppose I have been placed in the posi- 
tion which almost every pastor has been placed in, relative to 
documents, and with a request to date back. 

Q. To gain some special end ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And your practice has been A. Always to deny 

that request. 

Q. Was it possible for you to give a thirty days' notice under 
the circumstances before you retired from the paper, October 
9th ? A. Yes, sir ; it was impossible ; they had sold the 
paper ; they had no more to do with it on that Monday ; it 
would have been as absurd for me to give a notice to the Czar 
of Russia as to E. Remington, as I found them between two 
and four o'clock — they had sold the paper and had gone out. 

Q. Had you been for a long time anxiously desirous of sever- 
ing your connection with the Christian at Work? A. Yes, sir; 
it was my one desire. 

Q. Will you state the reason which created this feeling — 
this desire ? A. Oh ! the irritations and exasperations that I 
received from E. Remington, such as I have never received 
from any man ; I prefer not to dwell much on that subject. 

Q. You include the whole in that general statement ? A. 
71 



562 



Yes, sir ; a long series — quite a long series, at any rate reach- 
ing through most of a year, the last year more especially ; 
then, at times, there would be interregnums of pleasantness, 
during one of which interregnums I wrote a letter which I be- 
lieve has already appeared in evidence here. 

Q. Had you, for some months prior to this, written a vale- 
dictory with a view to its publication ? A. Yes, sir ; I thought 
I mentioned that. 

Q. I believe you did ? A. Yes, sir ; about the first of 
June. 

Q. Was that valedictory actually put in type ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. By your order ? A. Yes, sir ; it came to me at the ed- 
itorial table, in type, and for correction of proof. 

Q. Mr. Dickinson says in his testimony that he called upon 
you in the autumn of 1876, and asked you if you had any sug- 
gestions to propose, as to the circular they were about issuing, 
and you said you had not any ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Why didn't you make suggestions then ? A. When Mr. 
Remington called in the autumn to ask if I had any change to 
suggest in the circular ; I told him I had no suggestions to 
make ; my reason for saying that was, that I did not want to 
give any information to my enemies as to what I proposed to 
do, and E. Remington was my enemy. 

Q. You regarded him as hostile to you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It was a matter of personal caution that made you silent? 
A. It was, sir. 

Q. Do you know of Mr. Remington's attempt to supersede 
you by employing other ministers upon the paper? A. I 
know, positively, that he had sought three different clergymen, 
and offered them the editorial chair, without giving me any in- 
formation of the fact that he was so surreptitiously attempting 
to take the editorial chair from me ; two of those clergymen are 
in this house now ; I will not mention their names, because it 
might not be pleasant for them ; one clergyman, whose name 
I will mention, was the Rev. Wm. M. Taylor, of New York, 
who finally became the editor ; that he had been offered the 
chair ; and there were other clergymen to whom it was offered ; 
you may know how I felt under all those considerations. 



563 



Dr. Spear — Now, I will ask the counsel for the prosecution* 
to give the defence the letter of Dr. Talmage to Mr. Hallock' 
written about March, 1876, which has been given in evidence; 
I think it is without date. 

Mr. Crosby — There is one of March 6th. 

Dr. Spear — It is the one in which this phrase " non-com- 
mittal" occurs. 

Mr. Crosby — Oh, that has not any date. 

(The letter is produced.) 

Q. What do yon mean in that letter by the expression *' better 
be non-committal in your conversation with Remington ; do 
not tell what other papers we might absorb in our project," 
etc., and so on ; what do you mean there? A. I mean do not 
tell any enemy what we propose to do ; I saw he was plotting 
for my disgrace ; I not only thought so, but I know so. 

Q. This then, was based upon the idea that Mr. Remington 
was your enemy ? A. Yes, sir; " don't tell him about what 
" other papers we might absorb in our new project, nor how 
" much capital ; yet I told him we could get almost any amount 
" of capital ; I have an idea that Downs has several hundred 
" thousand dollars ;" now I will say, in regard to that 

Q. Yes, sir ; go on and explain the letter, if you choose to. 
A. Yes, sir ; that week, when I said we could get almost any 
amount of capital, I did not mean twenty million, but I meant 
almost any amount of capital that was necessary to carry on a 
religious newspaper ; there was no braggadocio in this ; during 
those months, or about that time, I put down on one table in 
New York $^50,000 of securities by my friends ; none of the 
money myself or of my own ; but it was $250,000 securities 
which had been promised in a meeting of gentlemen who had 
funds ; I state that fact. 

Q. For the paper ? A. For the paper. 

Mr. Crosby — What was that date ? A. I did not give the 
date ; " I told him we could get almost any amount of 
capital ; " to that offer which I made I have two witnesses be- 
side myself ; " I have an idea that Downs has several hun- 
" dred thousand dollars ;" Mr. Downs was not a fiction ; Mr. 
Downs was a very elegant gentleman, who came to me three 
times and offered me an editorial chair in a paper which he 



564 



would start, or he proposed in the other case to purchase a 
paper and give me the editorial chair ; he is a man of large 
wealth, and afterwards — I believe he has been in commercial 
life in New York ; " Downs has several hundred thousand 
" dollars t but Eemington is decidedly disposed to quote you 
" and try to bring your statements into collision with mine; I 
" leave for Montreal to-day ; " I remember being in Montreal 
several times. 

Q. When did you actually become the editor of the Ad- 
vance ? A. In November ; my original memoranda with Gen. 
Howard proposed my becoming editor November 12th or 
14th ; I think November 14th ; I had no idea of going into 
the Advance until that time ; I really practically did not be- 
come an editor of the Advance until November, although I 
immediately began my editorial work, and you will see, 
brethren — the court will see — that I had an abundance of 
time to give an addtional thirty days notice. 

Q. What was the elate of your memoranda — arrangement 
with the Advance — with Gen. Howard ? A. My first memo- 
randa was October 4th ; October 5th came the letter of Mr. 
Eemington ; I hope the brethren of the prosecution will notice 
the chronology ; my first memoranda with Gen. Howard, 
October 4th ; my letter to Mr. Eemington, October 5th ; 
October 9th, 12 o'clock, my interview with Mr. Hallock ; 
October 9th, between two and four, my discovery of the sur- 
reptitious sale ; October 9th, between six and seven in the 
evening, my insertion of the "Good-Bye" editorial: but the 
original memorandum looking to November the 14th or 12th — 
I am pretty sure it was the 14th, so that it would have 
given abundance of time to have given them the additional 
thirty days' notice. 

Q. Now, this memorandum agreement on the 4th of October, 
was it a completed arrangement or simply a memorandum? 
A. No, no ; it was a memorandum that we changed three to 
four times, and it was not finally concluded until that after- 
noon in October 9th. 

Q. It took its final completing especially in the afternoon ? 
A. Yes, sir ; it was never an iron arrangement ; it was a 
friendly sort of memorandum, so that I remember being in 



565 



Chicago in December, and we tore up that memorandum and 
made a new one in December when I was in Chicago. 

Q. Did you give to the Advance a list of the subscribers of 
the Christian at Work? A. I never did. 

Q. Did you instruct any one to do so ? A. I never did. 

Q. Did you know of any one having done so ? A. I never 
did. 

Q. Did the Advance, to your knowledge, have any such list ? 
A. I never knew of any such thing ; I would like at this point 
to call for a letter, which I loaned some of my friends, from 
General Howard. 

Mr. Millard — Is it the one Major Corwin referred to ? A. 
Yes, sir ; it is not an affidavit, but a letter ; Mr. Corwin, 
haven't you got that ; I loaned it to tome of my friends — in 
which he explains all these things. 

Mr. Crosby — I should like to know what relevancy it has. 

Mr. Millard — I suppose it is the same Major Corwin refer- 
red to, stating how he got that list. 

Mr. Crosby— Oh ! that letter. 

The Witness — Yes, sir ; in which he says General Howard 
purchased the right from some agent at the west. 

Dr. Spear — That is a recent letter, that has come to you ? 
A. Yes, sir ; that has come to me in a week or two. 

Mr. McCullagh — I hope that that letter will be produced ; 
it is very important for the defense. 

The Witness — Oh, yes ; it came to me this week, and it will 
be found ; I have it among my papers. 

Q. Wa?s any list — any mail list — of the Christian at Work, 
stolen from the Christian at Work, to your knowledge ? A. 
No, sir ; I never knew of any. 

Q. What has been said upon this trial, and elsewhere, con- 
cerning the Christian at Work difficulty — what have you to say 
about it ? A. It was a newspaper quarrel, in wdiich some 
gentlemen tried to overthrow me, but did not succeed, because 
I was too quick for them. 

Q. You left the paper too soon for them to gain the end ; 
now, after a lapse of three years, upon a review of this whole 
matter, do you consider that you did any wrong, or made any 
mistake at that time, in the course you pursued? A. I was 



566 

guilty of no wrong, aud committed no mistake ; if I had the 
same circumstances to go through now, I should do precisely 
as I did, without a single variation, and so would any man who 
had any regard for his own rights. 

Q. Did you make the difficulty — the general difficulty be- 
tween you and the Christian at Work, Company a matter of 
special prayer ? A. I did. 

Q. I choose to pass into the privacy of your heart on that 
subject, please tell the court what that fact is ? A. On the 
morning of the day in which I left the paper, when I left 
home I felt very much impressed with the fact that something 
decisive might happen that day ; I felt that I was hounded — 
there is no other word that I can think of that expresses my 
feelings — I felt I was hounded, and I didn't know what would 
occur that day ; I was so much impressed, I know, the pre- 
vious Sabbath, that I was quite unfit for that Sabbath's work ; 
in the morning, in conversation with my wife in regard to it 
she gave me the advice she is very apt to give, " You ought to 
be especially in prayer at this time," and I said, " I know I 
ought to be," and I started for the office ; after getting out 
door, I thought, perhaps I have not made this as much a 
matter of prayer as I ought to — this whole Christian at Work 
matter which had been an accumulative trouble month after 
month, month after month, until it well nigh destroyed my 
life ; I never felt my health give way under anything except 
under the pressure of that occasion ; I could not have lived under 
the same pressure much longer, and as I was standing on my 
front stoop I rung the door bell and went back into the house, 
and went up to my study on the fourth floor, locked the door 
and knelt down and asked God that whatever I might' be 
called to do that day I might do with reference to the judg- 
ment — the last judgment — and that I might be directed in 
everything; I will say to the brethren of this court that I 
have always been sure that I made no mistake on that, since I 
asked most especial direction, and I had the theory, if our re- 
ligion is not practical enough to get direction when we do not 
know what to do, there is not much in religion. 

Q. Well, this Christian at Work difficulty was pressing your 
mind from time to time, and from week to week ; now, you 



567 



were liable to have a special trouble on any day ? A. Any 
day. 

Q. You did not know when it would come ? A. When it 
would come. 

Q. You felt you were in the hands of enemies ? A. I did ; I 
feel so now ; I know it. 

Q. It was in that general dilemma of circumstances that led 
you to this seeking of wisdom from above? A. It was nothing 
special except the accumulation that had been rolling over on 
me, rolling over for weeks and months, and then my constantly 
thinking of the facts that the editorial chair had been offered 
to other persons, and mean things done. 

Q. Without familiar and inviting conference with you, as 
editor in chief ? A. Yes, sir ; it never came from those persons 
themselves — any information. 

Q. Mr. Hallock says that you endeavored to purchase the 
Christian at Work, about a year and a half after this time, is 
that so ? A. I did ; with the one distinct idea that if I pur- 
chased that paper and was again in the editorial chair, I would 
have an opportunity of correcting the slander which had gone 
forth, week after week, and month after month, from that 
paper, and for a while, whole columns of abuse ; that paper at 
that time opening itself to receive communications from any- 
body that happened to have an antipathy about me person- 
ally — put in that column and sent broadcast all over this land ; 
I said to my wife, at Martha's Yineyard, I think a year ago 
last summer, I believe I shall get some of my friends to pur- 
chase the Christian at Work, so that I can say to multitudes 
of people, who have never heard any explanation about 
things, only the statement of my enemies, what the real cir- 
cumstances were ; I had found in the Southern States, and far 
away from our daily papers, the explanation which might have 
come in our daily papers ; I think persons to whom this whole 
Christian at Work matter had been a perpetual mystery, and 
they were asking me questions, when I happened to be in 
those States, and I think if I could purchase that paper, or 
rather, have my friends purchase it, I could make that expla- 
nation all over the country ; and I heard at that time, also, 
that there was a difference of opinion between Mr. Hallock 

Hi 



568 



and the present editor, and that the connection was about to 
be dissolved, and I thought that was a good time to purchase 
it. 

Q. Your theory was to right yourself before the readers of 
that paper, and before the public ? A. Yes, sir. 

Dr. Spear — I would like it, if we could have Dr. Talmage's 
public announcement in the Tabernacle on October 5th, 1876. 
Is that here ? 

Mr. Crosby — It is ; yes, sir. 

(The paper is produced.) 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. That is the Advance, is it ? A. Yes, sir ; you ask me 
whether I recognize this as the statement I made? 

Q. Yes, sir ? A. I don't remember the statement ; I do not 
doubt its truth (reads it) ; I have no remembrance of saying 
that, but I do not deny it at all. 

Q. You don't deny the truth of that statement ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Mr. Hallock states that, in this statement, you uttered 
six falsehoods ; now, what have you to say in regard to that ; 
name the first falsehood ? A. Well, where was it ; please to 
march them out in the series. 

Q. You say there arejno falsehoods ? A. I do not see any 
falsehoods here. 

Mr. Millard — The first one was that it was not sudden ? A. 
That that was a lie ? 

Dr. Spear — That is the allegation of Mr. Hallock? A. Yes, 
sir ; oh, yes, if I think of anything — January, February, 
March, April, May, June, July, August, September and Octo- 
ber — I don't think it is very sudden. 

Mr. Millard — The next one was that it was surreptitious ? 
A. It was, most certainly, surreptitious ; I being editor and 
stockholder, I ought to have been informed ; it was sold sur- 
reptitiously. 

Dr. Spear — It was sold without your knowledge ; is that a 
fact ? A. That is a fact. 

Q. He furthermore says your declarations • A. Sold to 

the publisher of an Unitarian paper ; well, Mr. Hallock ad- 
mitted, in this chair here, that he had been the publisher of a 
Unitarian paper, and everybody in New York that knows any- 



569 



thing about papers ; knows he was the publisher of Unitarian 
papers ; so I told the truth there, orjce anyhow ; " that an im- 
pression, on the part of the editor, that I would go with it." 

Q. Would you vary that announcement from the pulpit, or 
anywhere else ? A. No, sir ; it is accurate to the last point ; 
so that when he says I_ lied six times, I say Mr. Hallock was 
mistaken six times. 

*Q. Did you pay any money to help the Christian at Work in 
its financial emergencies ? A. 1 did ; I paid $2,500 ; I have 
paid, considering my means, more than Mr. Remington ever 
did, and when the paper was sold Mr. Remington got some of 
the purchase money, I suppose ; I never got a farthing — not 
even a thank you — for $2,500. 

Q. It appears you were a stockholder in the Christian at 
Work ; what did you do with your stock ? A. I was a stock- 
holder. 

Q. What did you do with it ? A. Mr. Hawley, who was on 
this witness stand, was about to start a juvenile paper under 
the auspices of the Christian at Work Company, or something 
like that ; he wrote to me that he was poor, but that if I 
would give him my stock it would be a great help to him ; I 
gave him all the stock, and the only receipt I had for it was 
his assailing my character in this chair. 

Q. He made you no pecuniary return in any form ? A. No ; 
the only return has been in the presence of this court. 

Dr. Speak — I should like to have that statement of Mr. Cor- 
win's produced — the public statement. 

A. I should like to explain now in regard to that $2,500 I 
gave, because it might come on in questions ; the paper came 
once before to a standstill, and it was necessary to get $5,000, 
and some gentlemen put their names — we could borrow the 
$5,000 by a note — and some gentlemen put their names on the 
note ; one gentleman paid $2,500, and I paid the other $2,500 ; 
I thought it proper to make that explanation, as some persons 
might not understand. 

Look at that paper and see if you identify it as the letter 
of Mr. Corwin (handing letter to witness). A. Yes, it has the 
general appearance. 

Q. What is the heading ? A. " Hallock and his Christian at 
72 



570 



■ Work /<•■? it looks about like the same document that has been 
in evidence; and about the same document to which I put my 
name, saying, " I wrote the above statement of Mr. Corwin, 
and find it true in every point. I will not particularize at 
length in regard to Mr. Hallock's statement, which is false in 
one and false in all. T. De WITT TALMAGE." 

Q. Just state the circumstances which stand in connection 
with that statement ? A. Mr. Corwin called at my house with 
that^written statement and read it to me, reading at the same 
time Mr. Hallock's statement, which I had not seen or read, as 
it is a rule of my life not to read anything disagreeable, and 
thatjstatenient had come to me, but I did not read it 

Q. You mean Mr. Hallock's statement? A. Yes, sir ; was 
there any doubt about which statement w T as disagreeable ? If 
so, I want to be understood; it is Mr. Hallock's statement 5 
Mr. Corwin read his statement, and I said to him, " why, what 
do you want to chase those lies for '? It never pays. If you 
kill one lie there will be twenty that will come to the funeral." 
He says to me, " I don't ask your advice ; I am going to pub- 
lish this anyhow ; I w^ant to know whether it is true." I said, 
." Jt is true, of course. 1 ' 

Q. He published it upon his own responsibility and at his 
own instigation ? A. Yes, sir. 

: Q. Did you know he intended to >vrite the letter ? A. No, 
sir ; no. 

Q. Your first knowledge of it was when he brought it to 
you? A. Yes, sir. 

I Q. Do you declare now the statements made in that open 
letter of Mr. Corwin's to be true, according to your best knowl- 
edge ? A. Yes, sir ; according to my best knowledge, 
a Pending the examination of Dr. Talmage, Presbytery ad- 
journed. 

J. M. GEEENE, 

i . . Stated Clerk 



Apeil 21st, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 21st, at 2 \ p. M. 

Dr. Talmage was withdrawn from the stand for the purpose 
of introducing one or two experts in editorial matters. 



«71 



The Rev. S. I. Prime, D. D., was then called, and being duly 
sworn, testified as follows : 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Doctor Prime, will you have the kindness to tell the court 
what is your present official position ? A. I am the editor-in- 
chief of the New York Observer; I suppose you refer to my 
connection with a paper. 

Q. How long have you been editor of that paper? A. I 
have been editor of it, with a brief interval, since the first of 
the month of April in the year 1840 ; sorry you draw out 
such- ■ 

Q. Are you also a publisher of the paper ? Yes, sir ; I am 
one of the owners of the paper. 

Q. You have had a large experience both as editor and pub- 
lisher ? A. About forty years in the one or the other, or 
both. 

Q. Now, what is the extent of the control which, an editor 
has over the columns of the paper ? A. That might depend 
upon the contract that was made between the editor and the 
publisher ; if he was made the editor-in-chief, his control would 
be complete, unless there was some reservation in the con- 
tract. 

Q. You mean control over the correspondence and editorial 
columns? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, on the supposition that Dr. Talmage was editor-in- 
chief of the Christian at Work on the 9th of October, was it his 
right, without consultation with the publisher and the owners 
to insert such a valedictory as he thought just to himself and., 
to the subscribers ? A. My previous answer has answered that 
question also ; if there was nothing in the contract to limit his 
right, he had a perfect right to print what he pleased in the 
editorial columns of the paper. 

Q. Was it in your judgment, was it consistent with the min- 
isterial and Christian character for him to exercise this right ? 
A. I cannot conceive of any reason why it should not be so ; 
you do not ask me anything in relation to the article lie in- 
serted, whether that was consistent or not. 

Q. I put the generic question to you ; on the supposition 
that Dr. Talmage had reason to believe that a scheme was on 



m 



foot to dispose of the Christian at Work surreptitiously, and 
that this would be his last opportunity to communicate with 
his subscribers, was it right for him to use all due diligence to 
secure the publication of his valedictory in that number of the 
paper? A. I should certainly do it myself ; I should use all 
due diligence. 

Q. Diligence to do the thing ; would you deem it, in the 
circumstances which I have stated with reference to his rela- 
tion to the subscribers of the paper, his duty to do so, or your 
own duty to do so ? A. I shall have to ask you now what the 
former question was, because it is a long one and involved. 

Q. I will put it to you again ; on the supposition that Dr- 
Talmage had reason to believe that a scheme was on foot to 
dispose of the Christian at Work surreptitiously, and that this 
would be his last opportunity to communicate with his sub- 
scribers, was it right for him to use all due diligence to secure 
the publication of his valedictory in that number of the paper? 
A. I am clear in relation to that, that it was ; it was right and 
proper for him to publish his valedictory in that paper, if he 
had the control of it as editor-in-chief, and believed there was 
a scheme on foot to put him out of it, and that was his last 
chance ; that is the idea. 
Cross-examined by Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Should you consider that Dr. Talmage had the right to 
introduce such a valedictory as was spoken of by the other 
counsel, until you had made caieful and diligent inquiry to 
find out the facts about this scheme to drop him from the 
paper? j A. The answer to that has already been made ; if he 
had reason to believe. 

Q. Would you add to that, if he had good reason to believe? 
A. Oh ! certainly, certainly, certainly. 

Q. Do you think he ought to have made careful inquiry, as 
to the grounds of his belief? A. I think he should have satis- 
fied himself, certainly. 

Q. Now, I shall ask you, sir, as an expert, has the editor the 
legal right to insert anything that is calculated to damage the 
financial interests of the paper of which he is the editor? A. 
That is implied in what I have said before ; the editor is one 
thing and the publisher is another, and if — I give you an illus- 
tration, from the profession. 



578 



Q. I would rather you would just answer this question ? A. 
I will have to explain a little; a publisher of a magazine, we will 
say, has employed an editor through the year ; he finds that 
that man is publishing sentiments in the magazine which he 
does not approve ; now the views of the editor may be injuring 
the financial interests of the paper, but the contract between 
the editor and the publisher justifies the editor in using his 
discretion, until the contract terminates, and the fact that it is 
to injure the fiiianciaHnterests of the paper is no reason why 
he should not go on. 

Q. That is as to the insertion of his views in the paper, that 
that illustration covers ; now I come back to this question 
again, aud I should like an answer, yes or no ? A. I will try 
to answer it as well as I can. 

Q. Has an editor the legal right to insert anything that is 
calculated to damage the financial interests of the paper ? A. 
Yes, sir ; he has a legal right to insert anything tnafc the con- 
tract allows him to. 

Q. Now, has the editor-in-chief the legal right to insert in 
the columns of the paper anything against the known or ex- 
pressed wishes of the proprietor ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is it the custom of editors to put in the paper what they 
please, no matter what the known wishes :^of the owner may 
be ? A. Oh ! I presume not, sir. 

Q. Is it considered proper ? A. That I cannot answer. 

Q. Not as an expert ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You don't know how that is looked upon in the profes- 
sion? A. No, sir; I know there are frequent conferences be- 
tween editors and publishers. 

Q. Has the editor the legal right to insert in the paper, we 
will say a criminal accusation against the proprietor, a charge 
of theft, or highway robbery ? A. Well, I have answered that 
question again and again ; there is a very broad distinction to 
be made between a legal right and what courtesy allows. 

Q. You think he has a legal right to do that ? A. Un- 
doubtedly ; it is true ; no man has a legal right to tell a lie. 

Q. Has he a legal right, against the wishes of the pro- 
prietor, to put in an editorial, urging the subscribers of the 
paper for example, or requesting them, or recommending them 



574 



to give up their subscriptions ? A. Well, sir, I have answered 
these questions over and over again. 

Q. He lias the legal right ? A. He has the legal right if his 
contract authorizes him to use the editorial columns at his 
discretion. 

Q. Now, I will ask you whether an editor has the moral 
right to put in a paper the things I have spoken of ; has he 
the moral right to put in the paper an article urging the sub- 
scribers to leave the paper; give up their subscriptions? A. 
Circumstances may make it very proper that he should do it. 

Q. Do you think, that under any circumstances, the editor- 
in-chief of a religious paper, has the moral right to put in the 
newspaper an editorial which would be damaging to the finan- 
cial interests of the proprietor of that paper by those means, 
such as urging the subscribers to go to another paper? A. I 
think, that almost under any circumstances, it would be very 
wrong ; but that circumstances may be, as I said before, such 
as to justify it. 

Q. But he has not always the moral right to do that ? A. 
No, sir ; it must be very extraordinary circumstances that will 
justify anything of the kind. 

Q. Do you believe that the editor of a religous paper has 
the right to insert an editorial in the paper — the moral right, 
I mean— the whole tenor of which is to induce the subscribers 
to follow the editor to another paper ? A. I make the same 
answer that I did before. 

Q. Now, under any circumstances has the editor the moral 
right to put that in a religious paper which would tend to ad- 
vance the interests of another paper, to the injury of the paper 
in which the editorial appeared ? A. The same answer to the 
question. 

Q. It is a different question ; you give the same answer ? 
A. The same answer. 

Q. It is not what the result to the paper would-be, but the 
advancement of another paper, to the injury of the one he 
leaves ? A. I understand you ; certainly. 

Q. Has he the right to insert in the columns of a religious 
paper, an editorial holding up the paper he is leaving iu un- 
favorable contrast with another paper? A. The same answer 



575 



as before ; it must be very extraordinary circumstances that 
would justify anything of the kind ; very. 

Q. In putting in such an editorial as that, you have just re- 
ferred to as requiring very strong circumstances to make it 
morally right, is it not your opinion that the editor would only 
be justified in doing it after careful investigation into the 
causes, which should lead him to do it ? A. Most certainly. 
Redirect-exainination by Dr. Speak : 

Q. I will repeat the question which you have already 
answered in the affirmative, Dr. Prime, without subjecting you 
to the necessity of answering the question, in order that you 
may answer another question : " On the supposition that Dr. 
" Talmage had reason to believe that a scheme was on foot to 
f * dispose of the Christian at Work surreptitiously, and that 
" this would be his last opportunity to communicate with his 
" subscribers, was it right for him to use due diligence to 
" secure the publication of his valedictory in that number of 
" his paper?" Now, Brother Millard will have the kindness 
to read in your hearing the valedictory. A. Before he reads it 
I would like to say that you are now going beyond the office 
of an expert. 

Mr. Millard — Would it be doing a thing that would be 
so extraordinary as has been just described, it the editor in his 
valedictory simply told the paper he Avas going to ; would that 
be considered as advertising in another way any other paper? 
A. I do not think I can answer that question ; I think my answers 
have been sufficiently explicit ; I do not see that I am called upon 
to pronounce upon the applicability of this particular valedictory 
and general principles, which I, as an expert, if you choose to 
apply that term to me, the principles which I have defined ; I 
have endeavored to state that it was his right, his privilege, and 
that under certain circumstances, it would be his duty, to use 
all due diligence to communicate with his subscribers ; on the 
other hand, I have said, and I wish particularly to be prop- 
erly presented to the Presbytery on that subject, and to be 
understood, that only extraordinary circumstances would jus- 
tify an editor in doing that in his paper which would be to its 
injury ; I have tried to discriminate carefully in that matter. 



576 



By Dr. Speab : 

Q. Then to the question I have i repeated you give the 
affirmative answer. A. I will hear it again, if you please. 

Q. " On the supposition that Dr. Talmage had reason t j be- 
" lieve that a scheme was on foot to dispose of the Christian at 
" Work surreptitiously, and that this would be his last oppor- 
" tunity to communicate with his subscribers, was it right for 
" him to use all due diligence to secure the publication of his 
" valedictory in that number of the paper ?" A. I answer to 
that most certainly. S. IRE>LEUS PRIME. 

At the close of Dr. Prime's examination, Rev. Elbert S. Por- 
ter, D. D., was called, and being duly sworn testified as 
follows : 
Dr. Speak : 

Q. Are you the editor of a newspaper? A. I am not, sir. 

A. You have been ? A. I have been. 

Q. Of what paper ? A. The Christian Intelligencer. 

Q. For how long a period ? A. For about sixteen years I 
was the controlling editor of it, and have been an editor ever 
since I was appointed in 1852, resigned as editor-in-chief in 
1868, but was speedily afterwards re-engaged in writing edito- 
rials, and have been doing that most of the time since. 

Q. You have, then, a pretty large experience as an editor-in- 
chief of a newspaper ? A. Some. 

Q. Now, sir, what is the extent of the control which an 
editor-in-chief has over the columns of the paper? A. I un- 
derstood, and acted upon the principle, that I had absolute 
control over all the reading matter of the paper ; over the col- 
umns of the paper, so far as the reading matter was concerned, 
of every sort and kind. 

Q. Then, on the supposition that Dr. Talmage was editor- 
in-chief of the Christian at Work, on the 9th of October, was it 
right, without consultation with the publisher, or the owners, 
to insert such a valedictory as he thought just to himself and 
to his subscribers ? A. It was right, if he was editor-in-chief, 
and had control of the columns ; he could put it in at the last 
moment, so long as he was editor. 

Q. Was it in your judgment consistent with ministerial and 
Christian character to exercise this right ? A. Editors are 
always consistent and of the right character. 



577 



By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Now, on the supposition that Dr. Talmage had reason to 
believe that a scheme was on foot to dispose of the Christian 
at Work surreptitiously and that this -would be his last oppor- 
tunity to communicate with his subscribers, was it right for 
him to use all due diligence to secure the publication of his 
valedictory, in that number of the paper ? A. It was right 
on the law of self-preservation. 

Q. That completes your answer to that question, does it ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had you known, from your acquaintance with the Chris- 
tian at Work affairs in 1876, that there was imminent danger of 
the stoppage of that paper? A. I did, I knew it; I would 
like to say that when Dr. Talmage went in as editor, he em- 
ployed me as literary editor, and I continued in that capacity 
in connection with the paper during the term of Dr. Talmage's 
connection, and after that I remained in the service of the 
Christian at Work after Mr. Hallock bought it, and am in a 
friendly connection with the present managers of the paper. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Was the conference held with youi about becoming one 
of the editors of the paper before Dr. Talmage left? A. Yes, 
sir ; it was. 

Q. And in case of disaster, was there an effort made for the 
reorganizing of that company ? A. I can state truth very 
briefly ; I received a letter in 1876, in the month of February, 
from Dr. Talmage, informing me that the financial affairs of 
the paper were such that the expenses would have to be re- 
duced in every way possible, and he hoped that better times would 
come, when I could be re-engaged ; I was out of the paper then 
as literary editor for about a month, and was called back again 
on new terms, and during that time I was familiar, somewhat, 
with the financial affairs of the paper, and it was doubted from 
week to week whether they would go on unless some new men 
could be found to advance money. 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. When was it ? A. The spring of 1876 ; I cannot specify 
the time ol the month. 
73 



578 



Q. How long were you out of the paper ? A. About one 
month. 

By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Do you consider that these plans of reorganization as- 
sumed the dropping of Dr. Talmage ; was that a fact ? A. I 
hardly assumed anything ; they were all in chaos ; they did 
not know what to do. 

Q. Did Mr. Haight, the publisher of the Intelligencer, show 
you the figures of the Christian at Work, in reference to the 
consolidation of that paper with the Christian Intelligencer. 
in the spring of of 1876 ? A. He did. 

Q. Was contemplating that consolidation ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you ever hear any discussion in the Christian at 
Work office, about dropping the word " at " from the title ? 
A. Several times it was spoken of ; there was no secret ; I did 
not know exactly what it meant, except that it might be an 
improvement in the style of the paper. 
Cross-examined by Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Before inserting a valedictory of such a nature, and un- 
der such circumstances as were suggested to yon by the coun- 
sel on the opposite side, would it not be incumbent upon the 
editor to make careful investigation of all the circumstances, 
to be well assured in his own mind that there was a scheme 
for dropping? A. I think he should have definite intelli- 
gence upon which to act. 

Q. In what part of 1876, did you know as you stated ; I 
believe that the paper was about — what was the answer to 
that question ? A. What is the question ? 

Q. What part of 1876 did you know that there was imminent 
danger of the paper stopping ? A. It would be impossible for 
me to locate the time, and confine it to any one single month ; 
if you will allow me to say it has been testified here that 
there was a conference with Dr. Talmage and Mr. Dickinson 
• in regard to a change of affairs ; my relations to Mr. Hallock 
and Mr. Bright were very pleasant and friendly, as they are 
to-day, and they were pleased to communicate to me from time 
to time as I was in the office, the condition of affairs ; I saw 
them, and saw Mr. Remington as well, and he talked to me 
about it. 



5?9 



Q. You say you received a letter from Mr. Talmage in Feb- 
ruary? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did he in that letter, state to you that there was immi- 
nent danger of the paper stopping ? A. Not in that letter. 

Q. Didn't he state in that letter, that he hoped better times 
would come ? A. He did. 

Q. You stated there was a negotiation with you in regard to 
the coming editor I believe ; what was the nature of that 
negotiation ? A. It was a tentative proposition. 

Q, By whom was it made ? A. By Major Bright, and his 
idea was to get Dr. Ludlow and myself to edit the paper, in 
case Dr. Talmage dropped it ; I said Major Bright was man- 
aging editor and stockholder, and one of the Trustees, and had 
conference with me in regard to getting Dr. Ludlow and 
myself to become editors of the paper in case Dr. Talmage 
went out, but it was not known then, whether he would stay 
or not. 

Q. Did Major Bright tell you that there was any intention 
of dropping Dr. Talmage at that time ? A. He did not tell 
me that there was an intention, but he acted upon the convic- 
tion ; things were uncertain. 

Q. Did he tell you that he thought Dr. Talmage would per- 
haps not stay in the paper ; that was the condition upon which 

the negotiations ? A. Major Bright and Dr. Talmage 

were very intimate friends, and they were both in trouble about 
the paper. 

Q. When was it Major Bright came to you ? A. Well, it 
was somewhere in April or May, I think. 

Q. April or May, 1876? A. I think so. 

Q. You can't fix it any nearer than that? A. No, sir. 

Q. You said something about Mr. Haight publishing the 
Intelligencer ; will you please read that ? (Stenographer read 
the question.) A. I want to say if that was my answer exactly, 
I want to change it ; he told me the Christian at Work had 
been offered to him, and he had been up to get the figures and 
show them to me. 

Q. When was that? A. In the spring of 1876. 

Q. Did he tell you who had asked him to come ? A. He did 
not ; he said it had been offered to him. 



580 



Q. Did you, at that time, know that, Dr. Talniage was making 
efforts to find a purchaser for the paper ? A. I did not. 

Q. Did you have any information in regard to that fact ? A. 
I had this information that we were all looking around to see 
if we hadn't some men that would supply the deficiency cre- 
ated by Mr. Kemington's possible withdrawal ; I got some of my 
friends to go there and meet with members of the committee, 

Q. That was a generally understood thing among the offi- 
cers of the Christian at Work ? A. It was, sir. 

Q. "When Major Bright came to you negotiating about your 
becoming editor, was it because he expected Dr. Talmage 
would withdraw ? A. Well, sir, I think I can give you a com- 
plete psychological exhibit of that period. 

Q. I don't want that ; I want to know your understanding 
with Major Bright ? A. They were all in a fearful state of un- 
certainty in the office. 

Q. Did Major Bright, when he came to you, give you as a 
reason for this negotiation, that he expected or feared Dr. 
Talmage would withdraw? A. He feared he would, because 
the possibility was of Mr. Eemington's withdrawing. 

During the further examination of Dr. Talmage, an affidavit 
-was offered in evidence from Gen. C. H. Howard, of Chicago, 
which, after some debate, was allowed by Presbytery to be 
read as a letter. 

Dr. T. DeWitt Talmage recalled to the stand. 
By Dr. Speak : 

Q. Dr. Talmage, in the contract which you made with the 
Christian at Work, were you restricted, by the terms of that 
contract, in any way as to your control over the editorial col- 
umns of the paper ? A. No, sir ; I do not remember any re- 
strictions. 

Q. Your control, then, was absolute and complete over the 
columns of the paper ? A. My control was absolute. 

Q. If I recollect right, you referred, in your testimony on 
last Friday, to exasperations from Mr. Bemington through let- 
ters addressed to you ; were there any other sources of exas- 
peration, and if so, what were they? A. Yes, sir ; in addition 
to letters, there was the maltreatment of my friends ; Mr. Cor- 



581 



win was taken from a lucrative position, introduced into the 
Christian at Work office — the paper nearly in a bankrupt state 
— and because in three months the paper had not been en- 
tirely reconstructed and Mr. Remington hadn't got out the 
money that he put into it, there immediately began to be se- 
vere criticisms of Mr. Corwin, and at the end of six months he 
was discharged, but really his work practically ended at the 
end of three months, because there was so much discourage- 
ment thrown in his way, and indeed a cloud hung over our 
entire establishment, all the departments ; as soon as Mr. Cor- 
win came in, everything brightened ; I thought he was the 
man ; I had commended him in that relation to the proprietors 
of the paper ; I thought he was the man then for the position ? 
as I think now he was just the man for it, and there was a 
feeling of good cheer all through the office that was very re- 
freshing ; subscribers came in in unwonted numbers ; it was 
suggested on this witness stand, that at the close of the year 
there were a great many subscriptions that had expired ; that 
is always so in a newspaper office ; there are more subscrip- 
tions that expire at the close of December than there are new 
subscriptions on the first of January ; that is so in every paper ; 
but then the subscriptions keep on accumulating after Jan- 
uary — January, February, March, and so on ; but the positively 
new subscribers and the number of the old subscribers who 
renewed their subscriptions was unprecedented in that paper. 

Q. I think, Dr. Talmage, that some reference was made by 
one of the counsel for the prosecution, to your manner of re- 
ceiving church members ? A. If you will excuse me, in an- 
swer to the question you gave in regard to the exasperations 
I had suffered — it was the criticisms also of my managing 
editor. 

Q. Mr. Bright? A. Mr. Bright; I mean criticisms in re- 
gard to him by Mr. Remington, because his temperance prin- 
ciples did not seem to be strong enough, his holiness princi- 
ciples did not seem to be strong enough, and the fun column 
was not liked, and in various ways Mr. Bright was criticised 
by Mr. Remington, and the whole thing became to me very 
unpleasant, and another exasperation was the constant threat 
of the stoppage of the paper ; we knew not with what issue 



the paper would be abandoned ; this constant uncertainty im- 
peded progress in the publishing department, and in the 
editorial department, and in everything connected with the 
paper ; that is about all I have to say on that. 

Q. Reference was made the other day by one of the coun- 
sel for the prosecution to your manner of receiving church 
members, with the suggestion that you might have a desire to 
roll up a long list of converts to the glory of Dr. Talinage ; 
what is the fact about that? A. In our church, we are as 
careful in the reception of members, I think, as in any Chris- 
tian church ; I never examined members in regard to the 
minor points of religious belief, but as my reason will bear 
me out, I am always cautious in my examination of mem- 
bers, to find out whether the heart has been renewed by the 
grace of God, and whether there is a determination to live a 
Christian life, but I make absolutely nothing of the differences 
between denominations of Christians, and I know, that some- 
times I lay myself open to remarks among my brethren, be- 
cause of that abstinence from any discussion of ecclesiastical 
differences ; but after I have examined members all the mem- 
bers of my Session have full right to supplement the examina- 
tion, and I cannot imagine any greater care in the reception 
of members into the church than that which we exercise from 
time to time ; indeed, I may say that I never ask persons to 
become members of the church ; I ask them to become Chris- 
tians, and then I take it for granted, that if they are Christians, 
they will desire to be associated very soon with the people of 
God. 

Q. Have you recently received a letter from Gen. Howard, 
the editor and publisher of the Advance ? A. Yes, sir ; last 
week, I think. 

Q. Will you have the kindness to identify that letter ? 

(Letter handed to the witness.) A. Yes, sir ; that is Gen. 
Howard's letter ; do you desire to have me read it ? 

Mr. Crosby — May I ask what that is? 

Mr. Millard — The one you called for in regard to the mail 
lists. 

A. (Reading.) "Rev. T. DeWitt Talmage.— Dear Sir: 
Having seen in the published reports of the trial by the Pres- 



583 



bytery of Brooklyn, that some one or two witnesses have 
avered or implied that the Advance made use of 
the subscription list of the Christian at Work 
while you were editor of the Advance, I write to 
say that as publisher and proprietor of the Advance, I feel 
called upon to defend you and myself from any such imputa- 
tion. I am not certain that you were fully aware of the ar- 
rangement I made with the former western agent of the Chris- 
tian at Work • at least the details of the contract with him. 
He had been a general agent for books and other publications 
besides the Christian at Work, and claimed that he owned and 
had a perfect right to the use of several thousand names, 
which he had procured in the way of his own business. His 
former compensation, as he claims, included the use of the 
names, in addition to the cash commission. I therefore made 
a contract with him, in which he was paid a definite yearly sal- 
ary for his own services and the use of all his names. The 
words of this part of the contract defining the agreement on 
the part of the said former western agent of the Christian at 
Work was as iollows, viz.: "And will use such agent's names 
" and list and other appliances as he has at his command, in 
" managing the editorial department of the Advance.'''' Had 
those interested in the Christian at Work taken into account 
this arrangement, they would probably by means of this found 
an explanation of some of the facts of which they testified, 
rather than by the inference that you stole the lists of that 
paper. I will merely add, that if you stole the lists of the 
Christian at Work, or procured it, or used it in any unwarrant- 
able or improper way, I never knew it ; and furthermore, I am 
willing to take oath that to the best of my knowledge and be- 
lief you never did so procure or use such list. 
I am sincerely yours, 

0. H. HOWAKD." 
Q. You have received also from Mr. Howard an affidavit ? 
A. I have. 

Q. Is that the paper (handing paper to witness) ? A. I will 
say in explanation of this document, that it is an affidavit 
sworn to by Gen. Howard in the presence of the notary pub- 
lic, and the County Clerk of Cook County, I think ; Cook 



5Si 



County, under the seal of this County, or the seal of the State, 
asseverates that this notary public has been properly ap- 
pointed. 

Q. That was transmitted to you by Gen. Howard? A. 
That was transmitted to me by Gen. Howard, and it covers 
the whole ground ; I will say also to the members of the Pres- 
bytery, through the Moderator, that Gen. Howard is sick at 
this time and unable to come ; he has been sick for several 
weeks and may be for several months. 

(Mr. Crosby objects to the reading of the affidavit, claiming 
that the proper way to obtain the testimony is by the ap- 
pointment of a commission to be sent out to Chicago to take 
cross-examination as well as direct.) 

Counsel for the defense propose that the affidavit be read 
now and then counsel confer together and interrogatories be 
sent to Gen. Howard and his answers can be read in Presby- 
tery if they arrive in season. 

After considerable discussion, Dr. Yan Dyke moved that the 
affidavit be submitted to the counsel for the prosecution, and 
that, in the presence of and on consultation with both parties, 
they submit interrogatories to be sent out to Chicago and 
sworn to, according to Chapter 13 of the Book of Discipline. 

Mr. Millard moves, as an amendment, that the affidavit be 
now read as a letter, and that the counsel, at the close of this 
session, prepare cross-interrogatories to be forwarded to Gen. 
Howard, which shall be read here, if they arrive before the 
close of the trial. 

The amendment is adopted. 

Dr. Van Dyke — I give you notice of protest, Mr. Moderator. 

A. (Reading.) " State of Illinois, Cook County. Charles H. 
Howard, proprietor of the Advance, being duly sworn, saith : 
That in the month of October, 1876, he made proposal to the Rev. 
T.De Witt Talmage, at that time editor-in-chief of the Christian 
at Work, to become the editor of the Advance-; that Dr. Tal- 
mage at first suggested that in case he entered into such an 
engagement it should not begin until November, 1876, in order 
that he, Dr. Talmage, might give the Christian at Work Asso- 
ciation thirty days' notice ; but afterwards he stated to this 
affiant that he had been credibly informed that the Christian 



585 



at Work was either about to be, or had already been, sold or 
transferred to other parties, and that this transfer had been 
made without consulting or notifying him, Dr. Talmage ; and 
he further stated to affiant that he, Dr. Talmage, had given 
notice some months previously that he should leave the 
Christian at Work in the autumn of 1876, and that he decided 
to accept the offpr to become the editor of the Advance, to 
.take effect at once, and write his farewell editorial for the 
Christian at Work immediately ; that Dr. Talmage did accord- 
ingly write such an editorial, and signed the engagement with 
affiant to be editor of the Advance ; affiant further saith that 
with his understanding of the facts in the case Dr. Talmage 
had a perfect right to do this ; he further saith that at or about 
the day of said engagement of Dr. Talmage as editor of the 
Advance affiant made a contract with the business manager of 
the Christian at Work that an advertisement of the Advance 
should be inserted in the next number of the Christian at 
Work, and the advertising manager of that paper,*"at the same 
time, agreed with the affiant that such advertisement should 
be inserted in the next number of the paper, although it should 
arrive late, as was apprehended, since it was to be stereotyped 
without being set in ordinary type ; said advertisement was 
accordingly inserted in the Christian at Work, and, as affiant 
was informed, a full edition of that paper containing such 
advertisement was printed. 

Affiant further saith, that the whole transaction concerning 
this advertisement was begun and completed by the affiant and 
said business agent of the Christian at Work exclusively, and 
that Dr. Talmage had no agency or part in the matter, directly 
or indirectly. And he further saith that, greatly to his sur- 
prise, the proprietor or mauager of the Christian at Work re- 
fused afterwards to mail the edition containing Dr. Talmage's 
said farewell editorial, and printed another edition, leaving out 
both said editorial and advertisement. The editorial writing 
and insertion were, as I understood the facts, wholly within the 
province and authority of Dr. Talmage, as editor-in-chief of 
the Christian at Work. C. H. HOWARD, 

Subscribed and sworn to before me } 

this 23d day of March, 187tf," J 

74 



586 



The Moderator — That is sufficient, Doctor. It is received as 
a letter, and not as an affidavit. 

Dr. Van Dyke — Now will you allow me at this point to 
enter my protest upon the submission of that letter? 

" The undersigned respectfully protests against the action 
" of the Presbytery in allowing the reading of the affidavit 
•' from Gen. Howard as a letter. 

" I. — Because the said affidavit is not a letter, and the action 
" of the Presbytery in the premises is based upon a assump- 
" tion that is not true. 

" II. — Because admitting the affidavit of witness on one 
" side cuts off the other side from the inherent right of cross- 
" examination. 

" III. — Because such action without the article is a direct 
" violation of the Book of Discipline, chap. VI., sec. 13, which 
" provides for the examination of witnesses who cannot conve- 
" niently attend." 

The Moderator — The protest will be entered unless there is 
objection. The examination will continue. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Now I am going to ask you a series of questions that re- 
late to the third specification. Will you have the kindness to 
tell the court what is your idea of a free church — what is and 
has been your idea? A. My idea of a free church is a church 
where every man pays as much as he can for the support of 
the Gospel, his own conscience being the dictator. 

Q. Have you any specific rule to be laid down for his action 
in that matter other than his own conscience ? A. No other 
rule ; it is a matter between himself and God. 

Q. Is that the system you sought to establish in the Brook- 
lyn Taburnacle ? A. Just the system. 

Q. Have you in mind any passage of Scripture by which you 
sought to embody the principle of the free church theory? 
A. Yes, sir : the entire theory started with that passage in 
James which says, in substance : " If there come into your 
" assembly a man with gold ring and goodly apparel, and you 
" say to him, sit thou here in a good place, and there come in 
" a man in plainer raiment, and you say to him, stand thou 
" there or sit thou here under my|foot stool, you are become 



587 



" partial in yourselves and judges of evil thoughts." All the 
ideas I have ever had about a free church I got out of that 
passage ; and then I had observed also in all our churches 
that men who had been generous supporters of Christian in- 
stitutions through financial misfortune gradually lost their 
places in the church and were crowded back from the front 
pews to the middle pews, and back from the middle pews to 
the back pews, and back from the back pews to the doors? 
and back from the doors into infielity. 

Q. You wanted to avoid that ? A. I wanted to avoid that, 
and when a man had a seat in the church given him, he should 
keep it, he and his children forever. 

Q. Now at about the time you came to Brooklyn did you 
receive calls from other churches ? A. Yes, sir ; I had a call 
at that time to Chicago and one to San Francisco. 

Q. Why did you accept the Brooklyn call rather than the 
others ? A. Because the field was clear ; the church had been 
without a pastor for a good while, and had been depleted so 
through that absence of any pastor that it seemed to me to 
be an opportunity to build up a church on the free principle , 
from the very basis, and without the invasion of any theory 
that might be dominant at that time in the church. 

Q. These other churches to which you were called were 
established ? A. They were established, and it would require 
a remodeling of the old institutions rather than the beginning 
of new, whereas in this church in Brooklyn there was an op- 
portunity to begin anew. 

Q. Your plan, then, was to mould and establish this church 
according to your idea of a free church ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That was the controlling consideration in bringing you 
here rather than in taking you elsewhere ? A. I think it was 
the controlling idea. 

Q. Will you state to the court, Dr. Talmage, how the Gospel 
is supported in your church ? A. By voluntary contributions 
and — without reference to the dollar question ; now J suppose 
I had better explain that ; when I say without reference to the 
dollar question I do not mean to give the idea that no money 
is needed for the carrying on of Christian institutions ; but f 
mean by that idea that a man's getting a seat in the church 
does not depend upon what he can pay. 



588 



Q. You mean that every man shall pay all ^he can? A. All 
he can. 

Q. And that every man shall be accommodated in some 
way? A. Tes, sir ; I believe it to be the Christian principle. 

Q. Will you please give, if you can recall that, the announce- 
ment you have been in the habit of making to your congrega- 
tion as to the assignment of pews ? A. Well, I think for a 
year or two, I had the stereotyped announcement which I 
have just quoted : "The pews are assigned here without refer- 
ence to the dollar question ; " I changed that afterwards, at 
the suggestion of members of the Board of Trustees ; not that 
they suggested to me that, there was any deception or any mis- 
representation in that announcement, but they expressed the 
fear that some people might get the idea that there was no 
demand of any financial support of the Gospel, and after the 
statement of the Board of Trustees to me - different members 
of the board — I said in my pulpit : " I have been giving out 
"the announcement that pews in this church are assigned 
"without reference to the dollar question; but I don't want 
" you to think from that that we don't want you to pay for the 
" support of Christian institutions ; we want you to pay all 
" you can conscientiously." 

Q. There have been other free churches, Doctor, besides 
yours ; now what is the distinctive idea of your church as a 
free church? A. I think the distinctive idea in two respects 
is, in the first place, the pre-eminence of the home feeling and 
the culture of the home feeling ; in the churches started on that 
principle — the free principle — so far as I know of them in other 
days, not knowing what change there may be in the present 
year, there was no preeminence ; the father of the household 
might sit in one place, the mother in another place, the chil- 
dren in another place, and they went around from point to 
point in the church and the home feeling was not cultivated; 
in this church we proposed to give a man a pew and have him 
keep it as long as he was regular in his attendance upon the 
Gospel and behaved himself in the proper way, and when he 
died his children after him took possession of the pew, as we 
have ^again and agaiu in our church had demonstrated; the 
father paying generously for the support of the Gospel, he 



589 



died ; his family left in straightened circumstances, the chil- 
dren hold to that pew ; I call to mind now families where be- 
reavement desolated them, and still they have kept their pew, and 
will always keep their pew so long as I have any influence. 

Q. Carrying out that idea, has there been a theory with you 
that the church that is free shall be made attractive and in- 
teresting V A. Yes, sir; now you suggest the other distinctive 
idea, and that was that we should have all the luxuries of re- 
ligion ; the very best music we could find and the very best 
architecture, and we economized in nothing where the comfort 
of the people is concerned ; so that at the very inception of 
this idea, and without any consultation with any one, I went 
to New York and engaged George W. Morgan for $2,200, in no 
wise having the idea of an institution where the severe econo- 
mies would hinder the comfort and ; the attractiveness of the 
place ; I think those are the two distinctive ideas. 

Q. Which you have had in mind and have ever sought to 
realize? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, was the announcement which you were in the 
habit of making as to the assignment of pews without refer- 
ence to the dollar question, as you have explained it, and did 
explain it to the people, was it a true announcement or a false 
one ? A. True ; it is a sentiment that has been very near to 
my heart. 

Q. Would it have been possible for you to have made this 
announcement Sunday after Sunday in the face of your large 
congregation, in the presence of thousands, if they had known 
it was false ? A. I cannot imagine any one capable of such 
stultification; it would be easier for me to announce that every 
man who came in this room this afternoon had paid ten dol- 
lars to get in ; every person in the room would have known it 
was a falsification, and it would have been a greater impossi- 
bility for me to stand before any congregation, Sabbath after 
Sabbath and year after year, and make an announcement in 
regard to a free church when I knew at the same time all the 
congregation were aware of the fact that I was falsifying. 

Q. You had no such idea in your idea V A. Never. 

Q. Did you ever know that the pews were being rented in 
your church at any time at a fixed rental ? A. Never. 



590 



Q. Were you ever told by any party that this was so ? A. 
Never. 

Q. Did Thomas E. Pearsall tell you so ? A. Mr. Pearsall is 
mistaken ; Pearsall^ and other members of the Trustees at dif- 
ferent times discussed with me the propriety of going to the 
pew rental system ; I remember very distinctly Mr. Pearsall 
speaking of that; I think he favored— indeed I know he 
favored the pew-rental plan. 

Q. Were you ever criticised by Mr. Thomas E. Pearsall or 
any other Trustee, or any other person in your church as to 
the manner and form of your announcement ? A. Never ex- 
cept in that way ; I was criticised by them all at one time, and 
they would say to me, " In keeping on with that form of an- 
nouncement you seem to imply that the people are to give 
nothing ;" well, I said "I will correct that ; I had no such idea 
as that." 

Q. And then you became in the habit of using the explana- 
tory language to which you have referred and avoiding any 
such inference ? A. Yep, sir. 

Q. Did you ever see a diagram of the church with the fixed 
price for the pews ? A.I never did. 

Q. Did you ever know of the existence of any such diagram? 
A. I never knew of any such diagram ; I never heard of it 
until I heard of it on the trial. 

Q. Mr. Pearsall says in his testimony that while he was a 
member of the pew committee he had a plan for the renting of 
pews which, to use his own language, was this : " I had a price 
fixed on about every pew, and I assigned them according to 
their price ;" were you aware that Mr. Pearsall was assigning 
pews in this way ? A. No, I was not. 

Q. He says that he told you often of the fact ; now, what 
have you to say to that? A. Well, he is mistaken. 

Q. It is not so ? A. It is not so. 

Q. Do you remember of having had such a conversation 
with Mr. Pearsall as this to which he testifies : " I would often 
speak to Dr. Talmage about it ; I would say almost even- 
Sunday, you announce that the pews are let without reference 
to the dollar question ; all the audience know that is a bum- 
bug ; they just laugh at you now ; I said, ' Why not rent the 



591 



pews ; you could get more for them ; ' and he replied, - yon 
know my idea is to ran a free church ; ' yes, but, I said, ' you 
are not running a free church ; ' " did Mr. Pearsall ever talk to 
you in that way ? A. No; be spoke in criticism as the differ- 
ent members of the board did before I changed that announce- 
ment, that they were fearful that my mode of announcing it 
interfered with the financial prosperity of the church, because 
some might mistake and think, well, we don't want any money 
at all for the keeping up of this church ; I remember that criti- 
cism, and then my change of announcement was to meet that, 
which I considered was a fair and reasonable one. 

Q. Did Mr. Pearsall, or any one else, ever say that this an- 
nouncement that you made, was a mere humbug or pretense? 
A. Ah, I never used any such. 

Q. No deception or pretense ; no such language used by 
you ? A. No. 

Q. Were you ever solicited by the officers of the church to 
adopt the pew r rental plan ? A. Yes, sir ; I was ; whether by 
permission or by vote in Session, or by individuals, I cannot 
now think. 

Q. Bat your attention was called to it and you were urged? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was your reply to this solicitation? A. I have 
always opposed it with a good deal of spirit. 

Q. Do you remember any inducements held out to you by 
the officers of the church to adopt the pew-rental plan ? A. 
Yes, sir; they offered me a very largely increased salary. 

Q. If the pews would be rented ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you recollect any specific proposition in the way of 
increase that was ever made to you ? A. Yes, sir ; I was 
offered twenty thousand. 

Q. If the pews were rented ? A. If they were rented or sold. 

Q. When you were receiving how much salary? A. v-'even 
thousand dollars. 

Q. You would rather sacrifice the thirteen thousand than 
to abandon your principle on that subject? A. Yes, sir ; I had 
put a great deal of stress upon it ; I had thought more upon 
that subject of a free church than any other subject proposed 
except my own personal salvation. 



592 



Q. Do you remember any inducements that were held out to 
you, by the officers of the church, to adopt that plan ; did you 
write to the Trustees in March, 1870, relinquishing your 
salary ? A. Yes, sir ; I did ; that was at the time I began the 
discussion of a free church ; it was soon after I came to Brook- 
lyn, and we had a Board of Trustees — very good men — who 
said that they did not know whether it was possible for us to 
maintain the church financially ; they were in favor of it ; I 
remember Mr. James H. Prentice at that time was in the 
Board of Trustees ; he said, 'That is a good Christian principle, 
but I am somewhat in doubt whether a church can be main- 
tained in that way ; " and I remember there were other gentle- 
men of the Board of Trustees, who made the same remark, 
and at that time I surrendered my salary, taking the risk my- 
self—financial risk. 

Q. Was the letter a long one or a short one ? A. I think it 
was a short one; the purport of it was: "I hereby resign 
my" 

Q. (Interrupting). Relinquish ? A. "I hereby relinquish 
my salary, and I will not expect you to pay me any more sal- 
ary than the income of the church makes it comfortable for you 
to pay ;" that is about the idea. 

Q. This was in 1870 — March ? A. I think it was about 
that time ; just after I had been in Brooklyn a while. 

Q. Has the success of the free church plan as adopted by 
yourself been satisfactory to you? A. It has ; there are fric- 
tions in that plan, as there was in all plans, but considering 
the fact that we practically built about three ohnrches, as I 
could show in the matter of outlay of money 

Q. Tell the thing in full ? A. Well, in the first place, the 
enlargement of the old chapel ; then the building of 
the first Tabernacle one year ; then the very ex- 
pensive enlargement of that Tabernacle the next ; then 
it burned down, and then the building of the present 
Tabernacle ; there was not in all that time any bright 
financial weather in the country, and considering we had so 
much building to do, and amidst so much financial distress 
throughout the land, I consider that the free church plan has 
worked admirably ; of course, here and there there have been 
as I say, frictions. 



5y3 



Q. That completes the statement you have to make in re- 
gard to that point ? A. Yes, sir ; that is about all. 

I call your attention to specification 5 ; I wish that might 
be read, so that the court may see what it is. 

(Specification 5 is read by the Clerk.) 

Q. What was the position of John F. Talmage on June 
30th, 1876 ? A. He was the President of the Board of Trus- 
tees. 

Q. What relationship was there between yourself and John 
F. Talmage ? A. He is my nephew. 

Q. State as fully as you can the circumstances under which 
you sent him a telegram January 30th, 1878, and the object 
you had in view in sending it ; I will read the telegram in the 
hearing of the court: " Brooklyn, January 30th, 1878. John 
F. Talmage : Will you and Mr. Hobbs allow me to pledge 
you each for five thousand dollars, provided I make up to 
each of you privately the difference between your subscriptions 
and five thousand. Telegraph immediately. T. DeWitt Tal- 
mage ;" I repeat the question ? A. Our church was in debt ; 
I was very anxious to have the debt paid off ; there were a 
good many persons in the congregation who were anxious in 
the same direction ; Mr. John F. Talmage was in Baltimore, 
and Mr. Hobbs, who was also a member of the Board of Trus- 
tees ; I telegraphed first : " Will you give five thousand dollars 
for the payment of our church debt?" he telegraphed back in 
substance that he could not afford to do so ; our great desire 
was to raise twenty-five thousand dollars in the Board of Trus- 
tees ; I felt if we could not raise twenty-five thousand dollars 
in the Board of Trustees there would not be much use in try- 
ing to raise the debt, and that was the prominent idea in my 
mind ; then being disappointed in the telegram, I telegraphed 
again that which you have just read. 

Q. What transpired between the first and second which led 
to the second one ; describe the scene? A. Mrs. Talmage and 
I were conferring in regard to the matter, and I suggested that 
I would give five thousand dollars, and it did not make any 
difference whether I gave it in my own name or whether I gave 
it in the name of the Board of Trustees, and then I sent that 
telegram. 
75 



594 



Q. You had already intended to give five thousand ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And this contemplated an additional five thousand? A. 
Additional five thousand ; yes, sir ; perhaps you wish the ex- 
planation of the telegram? 

Q. I want you to bring before the court the whole operation 
of your mind, and that of your wife — the whole operation of 
your mind, as near as you can recall it ? A. I don't know as I 
can give you any more than I have given you; it was, of 
course, a discussion of domestic economy with us, and I am 
not accustomed to take any important step without advising 
with my wife ; she is a better financier than I am ; and I sent 
the telegram proposing if they could not give that amount of 
money I would make up to them privately the amount — what 
they failed to give ; the word " privately'" was suggested by 
my wife on the ground, that, perhaps, these being commercial 
gentlemen, they would not like it in that shape — would not 
like it put it in the shape that I was making this money up to 
them, and then I remember the suggestion was made — per- 
haps it might be misunderstood, and I remember making the 
remark : "Oh, you can't put everything in a telegram ;" it was 
with the idea of making twenty-five thousand dollars in the 
Board of Trustees. 

Q. As the starting point of the whole thing ? A. As the 
starting point of the whole thing ; I did it in perfect conscien- 
tiousness ; I didn't intend to play off this subscription upon 
another subscriber and say, " Here, Mr. Talmage gives so 
much, and, therefore, I want you to give so much ;" that never 
entered my mind, but I felt that we must have an aggregate 
of twenty-five thousand dollars in the Board of Trustees, or 
it would hardly be worth while to start. 

Q. You had really made up your mind to give five thousand 
dollars ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you proposed to make up to these gentlemen, Mr. 
John F. Talmage and Mr. Hobbs, any amount which their 
subscription should fail of being five thousand? A. Yes, sir; 
I discussed with my family, as I think my wife testified in evi- 
dence, the propriety of my giving up my salary and more than 
my salary for the first year, so great was my desire to have 
the debt cleared off. 



595 



Q. You were willing at that time to sacrifice your whole 
salary for a year, to gain the end ? A. I was willing ; if I 
ever had a generous sentiment in my heart I think I had in 
that, for this subscription fetched the blood. 

Q. Did you intend to have the subscription of John F. Tal- 
mage in any way a false subscription ? A, It never entered 
my mind ; now I will say in this connection something which 
bears upon it ; I had a great desire to have my nephews — for 
John F. Talmage is one of a firm made up of three young 
gentlemen — I had a great desire to have them at the front in 
the matter of this church debt raising ; there was a special 
reason for that ; they are the sons of a very dear brother 
through whose pocket I entered my profession ; my brother 
Daniel, their father, said to me when I was quite a boy : 
" De Witt, you don't seem to be satisfied and happy ; what is 
the matter ;" "Well," I said, "I want an education;" "Well," said 
he, " why don't you go and get it?" "Well," I said, " I have not 
the means to do so ;" " Well," he says, " go to the grammar 
school and I will pay the way ;" so I went to grammar school, 
and he clothed me, paid my board, and he gave me not only 
the comforts, but the luxuries- of life; I got through there 
and then he says, " Now, where do you want to go ? Harvard, 
Yale, New Brunswick or New York University ?" he says, "If 
you will come to Brooklyn, here, you can live at my house 
and I will pay your way ;" so I came to his house ; his wife 
was a mother to me ; he paid all my expenses at the New York 
University ; he clothed me, he gave me my books, he gave me 
everything I wanted, and when I got through, he said, "Now, 
I think you want to study for the ministry;" "Well," he says, "go 
where jou please, if you want to go to Andover or Yale, or 
New Brunswick or Princeton, go where you please ;" so I went 
to New Brunswick ; he paid all my expenses of education, 
and when I got through, he said, " well, I guess you want to 
be married ;" "Well," I said, " I do ;" "Well, now," he says, " I 
think you had better go and see Niagara Falls, on your wed- 
ding trip," and, he says, " here is the money ;" so he paid the 
expenses of my trip to Niagara Falls, and there was only one 
accident that hindered him from furnislr ng my house at 
Belleville. 



596 



Q. You are describing the history of your brother now ? A. 
Yes, sir ; my brother Daniel ; the only accident that hindered 
his furnishing my house, for I saw him getting ready to do so, 
but one day, after being absent two or three days from Belle- 
ville, I went to the village, and the old elder with whom I was 
stopping says : " You had better go up and see the old par- 
sonage ;" but I says, " I don't want to see it. It is empty." 
"Well," he says, " you take the key and go up and look at it ;" 
and we went up ; my wile with me ; we opened the door, turned 
to the right — the study was furnished ; turned to the left — the 
two parlors were furnished even to upholstery and pictures ; 
went up stairs — all the bed rooms were furnished ; went up 
into the attic — servant's room furnished ; down to the dining- 
room — dining room furnished — went into the pantry — the 
pantry furnished ; went into the kitchen — the kitchen furnished ; 
the wood in the stove ; the coal on the top of the wood, and a 
match lying down on the hearth ; so that all we had to do to 
start keeping house was just to strike a match ; w r ell, that was 
the accident that kept hitn from furnishing my house ; I have 
merely said these things to show you how very dear that 
brother was to me, and how desirous I was to have his sons 
come to the front and I came here to Brooklyn ; one of my 
ideas of coming w r as to be with him ; he was a favorite brother; 
and my first Sabbath came here, in Brooklyn, and at half-past 
seven in the evening I was to preach, and at half-past six, my 
first Sabbath evening, these boys — for they will never be any- 
thing but boys to me, if I should live to see them sixty years of 
age — these boys came in at half-past six, and said to me, 
" Father is dead ;" so I felt I never could do enough for any- 
body that belonged to Daniel Talmage — one of the most mag- 
nificent men the world ever made. 

Q. You w r anted to bring his descendants forward ? A. I 
did ; and all that idea came into the telegram. 

Q. In your mind? A. Yes, sir. 

Now- I will call your attention to Specification 6 ; will the 
clerk have the kindness to read it ? 
(The clerk reads the specification.) 

Q. There is really no evidence sustaining this specification 
at all ; I will ask you one or tw 7 o questions ; did you, at any 



597 



time, in the year 1878, act and speak deceitfully in reference 
to the matter of the re-engagement of the organist of the Tab- 
ernacle Church, as charged and set forth in this specification ? 
A. I did not. 

Q. What have you to say in regard to that ? A. Well, it 
was testified in this chair by Mr. Pearsall that I promised on 
the following Sabbath to give a notice in regard to the fact 
that I — that I promised to give a certain notice ; I cannot 
recollect what it was, and that I forgot it, and I have no doubt 
it was true. 

Q. A concert ? A. Yes, yes ; something about a concert ; 
my wife knows better than I do ; he says I promised on my 
return from the South, to give a certain notice, and I did not 
do it ; I have no doubt he is accurate. 

Q. As to the fact? A. Yes, sir; but I forgot it; I forget 
something of that kind every Sunday ; I do not know where the 
question points to exactly ; during all that discussion I be- 
trayed again and again a great admiration for George W. Mor- 
gan as an artist and as a gentleman ; that admiration always 
increasing. 

Q. Will the clerk read Specification VII. ? 

(The seventh specification is read by the clerk.) 

Q. W T hat have you to say, Dr. Talmage ? A. On a 
Thursday evening I saw in the Brooklyn Eagle a state- 
ment that I was to be arraigned or would be probably 
arraigneu for divergence from doctrinal modes and usages — I 
have forgotten the exact words — of the Presbyterian Church. 

Mr. Millaed — Just identify that, please (hands witness 
newspaper slip) ? A. That is it, " For alleged departure from 
doctrinal rules and usages." 

Mr. Crosby — I should like to have the whole article read. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. You identify that as the article you saw ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you recollect when this was published in the Eagle ? 
A. I recollect it was on a Thursday evening by an event which 
transpired on that evening. 

Q. Was it transferred to the New York papers ? A. I was 
very busy the rest of that week, and I remember I did not 
have time to read the newspapers ; but I heard on Friday and 



598 



Saturday that the article was copied in all the New York 
papers, so that when I said on the Sabbath or made the state- 
ment that it had been 

Q. We will call that up in a moment ; I will ask Mr. Millard 
to read this article that he saw. 

Dr. Millard (reading): "In hot water. The approaching 
" meeting of the Brooklyn Presbytery, which is to be held 
" next Monday, promises to be very animated and interesting. 
" It is probable that action will be taken looking to the pun- 
" ishment of Kev. T. DeWitt Talmage, pastor of the Brooklyn 
" Tabernacle, for alleged departure from doctrinal rules and 
" usages, and for various actions which have awakened the 
" criticisms ofj his Presbyterian brethren. Dr. Talmage sel- 
" dom attends the meetings of the Presbytery, and apparently 
" takes but little interest in its proceedings. For a long time 
" complaints have been made of his indifference, but the op- 
" position to him has not taken any tangible form until a very 
" recent period. 

" After the last meeting of the Presbytery, which was held 
" about a month ago, some of the clergymen composing the 
" body held an informal consultation in regard to his recent 
" conduct. Special stress was laid on the sensational style of 
" preaching in which he has of late been indulging more than 
" ever before. A general sentiment of disapprobation was 
" evoked, especially with regard to what some of the clergy- 
" men claimed were glaring innovations on the polity of the 
" church on the part of the Tabernacle preacher. In the line 
" of his shortcomings, it is said, were included his visits to the 
«' haunts of vice and his pictures of gilded sin so vividly pre- 
" sented to his congregation. Nothing definite was determined 
" upon in the consultation, although the brethren came to the 
" conclusion that it was high time some action should be 
" taken. 

<: The feeling of opposition to Dr. Talmage which has been 
" seething for some time has nearly bubbled over since the 
" Presbytery last met. His sharp thrusts at his contemporary 
" pulpiters have aroused a storm of indignation, not only among 
" the clergy but the laity as well, and in some quarters the de" 
*' mand that he be disciplined has been earnestly made. It is 



599 



" understood tbat the developments on the trial of the Taber- 
" nacle suit against Gelson are looked upon by the opponents 
1 of Dr. Talmage as discreditable to him, and they will possi- 
14 bly form a portion of the charges which it is reported are to 
" be presented against him. 

" A prominent member of the Presbytery, when questioned 
" on the subject to-day, said, that so far as he knew no charges 
" had yet been prepared. There had, he said, been some talk 
" about the matter, but he could not say whether a definite 
" conclusion had been reached. The Presbytery had not be- 
" gun proceedings before, because, although Dr. Talmage had 
" given cause of complaint, they had hoped he would do bet- 
" ter. No improvement had been made so far as he could see. 
" Indeed, matters had grown worse, and Dr. Talmage had 
" practically ceased to be a Presbyterian long ago. In the 
" opinion of the clergymen, Brother Talmage ought to come 
" out boldly and declare he was not a Presbyterian, and be- 
" come an independent preacher of the Gospel." 

By Mr. Spear : 

Q. That is the article that you read, Dr. Talmage, is it? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Which, as you were informed, was transferred to the 
New York papers ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember that on the next Sabbath you had a 
great many notices to give ? A. I always do ; I have no doubt 
I had. 

Q. Had you previously thought of making any reference to 
this article in the pulpit — previously thought out the idea 
that you would make any reference to it ? A. No ; I don't 
think so ; I don't know in what connection I spoke of it at 
all ; perhaps I spoke of it in connection with the meeting of 
the Presbytery ; I always publish the meeting of the Presby- 
tery when I think of it. 

Q. Whatever you did came before your mind casually and 
at the moment you did it ? A. Yes, sir ; I never rehearse my 
publications. 

Q. What did you say, as far as you can recollect it ? Can 
1 you recollect it at all ? A, I have no possible remembrance 



600 



of it ; I have seen it once or twice in the papers, but I could 
not recall it. 

Q. Can you recall what you stated on that Sabbath in the 
pulpit? A. I cannot. 

Q. Yon recollect that you made some reference, but what it 
was — the words — you cannot recollect? A. Oh, yes ; I re- 
member I called attention to something in regard to — well, 
that I was to be arraigned for doctrinal usages — for a diver- 
gence from the doctrinal usages of the Church, or to be 
tried for heterodoxy, which is the same thing. 

Q. You cannot recall the language which you used ? A. 
I cannot. 

Q. You only simply recollect that you did make some such 
reference? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And that this reference was occasioned by the article 
you saw in the Eagle ? A. Yes, sir ; which I heard was copied 
in all the papers, and I supposed it was. 

Q. Had you, at the time of this announcement, any idea in 
your mind that you were to be arraigned for falsehood and de- 
ceit? A. None whatever. 

Q. Had you in your mind the idea that you were to be ar- 
raigned at all? A. I don't remember ; I think I got my entire 
idea, if I got any idea at all in regard to it, from that article. 

Q. Was anything said about falsehood and deceit in the 
article ? A. Nothing. 

Q. It was not suggested to your mind at all? A. No, sir. 

Q. Had you, at the time of the announcement which you 
made, whatever it was, in mind the conversation alleged to 
have taken place between you and Arthur Crosby and Mr. 
Green about a year previously ? A. No, sir. 

Q. That conversation was not then present at all in your 
mind? A. No, sir. 

Q. It did not flit across your mind at all ? A. No, sir ; I 
live too busy a life to carry impressions of that kind. 

Q. Mr. Crosby says, in his testimony, that in his interview 
with you he made reference to the New York Times, and that 
you replied that you had a personal quarrel with one of the 
editors or the editor ; what have yon to say in regard to that 
matter ? A. I say Mr. Crosby is mistaken ; we, in that con- 
versation, discussed the criticism made by one or two papers. 



601 



Q. Upon you ? A. Yes, sir, and discussed the reason, but 
as to saying that I had a personal controversy with any editor 
of the New York Times, I never did, for I never knew an editor 
of the New York Times ; I never knew any one connected with 
the Times except a gentleman by the name of Mr. Pullman — 
in what department I don't know — but he was a very plea- 
sant friend of mine — I had met him on public occasions — very 
genial. 

Cross-examination by Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. I want to ask'you some questions, Doctor, relative to that 
advertisement that appeared in the New York Herald, July 
13th, 1876, and in other papers, under the name of " A. L. 
Ford ;" as a matter of fact, do you not know that it is custom- 
ary for business men to advertise business matters uncW an 
assumed name ? A. No, I did not. 

Q. In your judgment, is there anything dishonorable or any- 
thing wrong in an advertisement for sale of property, or of 
business under an assumed name ? A. That is a question of 
ethics that I would rather not discuss. 

Q. Then you say as a matter of fact you have never known 
of an instance of property being put up for sale under an as- 
sumed name? Q. There may be circumstances of that kind 
which I don't recall ; I know very little of practical business 
details. 

Q. You are not capable of giving a judgment as to the moral 
character of such an act ? A. I would rather not go into that ; 
there are gentlemen who will be on the stand more competent 
than myself; I don't feel myself competent to state. 

Q. As a matter of fact, wouldn't it have done you harm to 
have inserted an advertisement stating the bold fact that the 
Christian at Work was for sale when you were its editor ? A. 
Well, I don't think it would. 

Q. You don't think it would have injured you in the estima- 
tion of the Christian public for the paper to be advertised for 
sale, in which you were known to be the editor, and which was 
recognized as your paper ? A. Oh, it is a frequent thing — the 
sale of a newspaper ; the passage of a paper from one hand to 
another, from one company to another, is nothing derogatory 
76 



602 



to the gentleman in the editorial chair ; it might affect the 
financial credit of the paper. 

Q. That does not exactly answer my question ; this paper- 
was known as your paper, and. my question is, would you 
have regarded it as an injury if the advertisement had i eeii 
inserted in prominent papers of the day — the bald fact that 
this paper was for sale ? A. I don't know as it was called mv 
paper ; it was not my paper, certainly, so far as the owning of 
the majority of the stock was concerned ; the stock that I 
owned was a mere nothing. 

Q. That hardly answers my question yet ; I want to get at 
the specific point that you would have regarded the insertion 
of such an advertisement an injury to yourself or your name? 
A. I would be glad to answer the question if I knew how to 
answer it. 

Q. You could answer it yes or no, or decline to answer it? 
A. Just please read it again. 

Q. As a matter of fact would you not have considered it an 
injury for the bald statement to be put in the public prints of 
the day that the Christian at Work, the paper of which you 
were known as an editor, was for sale ? A. No ; I don't think 
it would have done me any injury. 

Q. As a matter of fact wouldn't it have injured the paper? 
A. I cannot see why it would ; wdien I see a newspaper ad- 
vertised for sale, it never depreciates my idea of the news- 
paper ; there are but very few of the great dailies that have not 
been sold within our memory. 

Q. Would you subscribe, Doctor, lor a religious paper that was 
in such a critical condition, that was for sale and likely to pass 
from one hand to another ? A. Well, it would depend upon 
whether I thought the paper would continue in the same jine 
of principle, advocating the same principles. 

Q. How would you know that when it was up for public 
sale? A. For instance, if the New York Observer was offered 
for sale I w r ould subscribe for the New York Observer just as 
confidently at that time of sale as I would at any other time, 
because its principles are pretty well established, and we know 
what will be the line of advocacy generally. 

Q. Do you not think that it would have prevented new sub- 



603 



scribers from subscribing for that paper, if they saw it for 
sale ? A. I don't know that it would, because they did not 
know of my relations with the proprietors; they did not know 
but we had all moved together in the matter. 

Q. And they did not know whether you would continue or 
not ? A. They could not tell in the matter whether it would 
interfere with the subscribers ; I could not say. 

Q. To pass to another point relative to the signing of that 
memorandum by Mr. Dickinson — you remember the memo- 
randum ? A. Yes, sir ; about the first of June. 

Q. Was the continued .existence of the Christian at Work 
then a matter of doubt in your own mind? A. I don't 
remember now what was the operation of my own mind at 
that time, except that it was one of personal unrest and dis- 
quietude. 

Q. Were you anxious at the time that you signed that me- 
moiandum to protect the interests of your subscribers ? A. I 
don't remember what was the state of my mind on the sub- 
ject ; the circumstances were I expected to go out at that time 
of the paper, and I had written a valedictory which was put 
in type. 

Q. At. every stage of your connection with that paper when 
its existence was in question, weren't your feelings excited in 
behalf of the subscribers ; that is, were not theiuterests of the 
subscribers dear to you? A. I always had a great regard for 
the subscribers. 

Q. Then, as a matter of fact, at the time you signed that 
memorandum the interests of the subscribers must have had a 
place in your miud and heart ? A. I don't remember any 
action of my mind at that time ; the making of the memoran- 
dum was a surprise to me ; I did not expect to make it at that 
time j indeed I expected to go out at that time. 

Q. Do you remember at any period when you were con- 
nected with the paper when the interests of the subscribers 
were not dear to you ? A. Oh, I was always interested in the 
welfare of the subscribers. 

Q. When Mr. Dickinson laid the circular before you which 
promised the subscribers that you would continue as editor 
and continue to furnish them sermons as you bad done pre- 



604 



viously, and he asked you if you had any suggestions to make, 
what did you say? A. That was in October, wasn't it? 

Q. That was in September ; when he laid this circular 
before you, which was the plan for the following winter's 
campaign, and asked you if you had any suggestion to make, 
what did you say ? A. Whether I suggested any change ? 

Q. Yes ? A. I said I had no change to suggest, for I want 
you to be aware at that time that I felt that I was in the hands 
of my enemies, and I wanted to give them no premonition — I 
wanted to give them no idea as to what I proposed to do, un- 
der any circumstances. 

Q. Then, as a matter of fact, when Mr. Dickinson laid this 
circular before you, didn't you allow the publishing company, 
by your consent, to deceive the subscribers, by stating in this 
circular that they would receive your editorials, your sermons, 
when you, in your own mind, knew that you were not going to 
furnish them ? A. I did not give any such information at all ; 
what action they preferred to make I was not responsible 
for. 

Q. By your assent to the circular ? A. I didn't give 

my assent. 

Q. By your refusal to tell them that you would not give 
them your sermons, didn't you, to that extent, deceive the sub- 
scribers ? A. I entirely abstained from any information in re- 
gard to myself ; I remember perfectly well Mr. Dickinson's 
coming to my house, and I remember that the only mode of 
self preservation, and the preservation of my rights in the 
case, was to be non-committal, and I don't think of any other 
word that gives my idea. 

Q. You do not get the pith of my question yet ; the pith of 
my question is this, do you not regard, whether consciously or 
unconsciously or not, I am not asking now — do you not, look- 
ing at it from your present standpoint, regard that you are a 
party to the deceiving of the subscribers to the Christian at 
Work, when you allowed this circular to go out ? A. Most 
certainly not. . 

Q. We have had some Scripture recited this afternoon ; I 
would like to know if that was in accordance with the spirit 
and letter of that passage which says, " Avoid the appearance 



605 



of evil ?" A. I certainly did not intend to run in collision 
with that passage ; I don't think I did. 

Q. If, when you signed the memorandum in May or June or 
in the spring, you gave Mr. Dickinson to understand that you 
would inevitably go out in the fall— gave him four months' 
notice — why does he come to you three months afterwards and 
lay before you the circular which implied that you were to 
continue in your relations as editor of that paper throughout 
the coming year, and ask you if you had any suggestions to 
make ? A. I don't know why he came, except that perhaps 
he thought I had changed my mind, or something of the kind. 

Q. You did not remind him, in that interview, that you had 
given him four months' notice, and intended to leave it? A. 
I don't know whether I did. or not — I don't remember ; I sim- 
ply remember my position was non-committal. 

Q. Before or about the time Mr. Hallock bought the paper, 
didn't you know that there was an anxiety and a desire on the 
part of all the owners of the paper to dispose of it? A. I 
knew that at different times there had been a disposition to 
sell it ; what the feeling was during the summer and autumn 
I knew not ; I was absent from the city during the summer 
and in the autumn was very busily engaged. 

Q. Did you ever make any proposition yourself to any person 
to purchase the paper 9 A. I have forgotten now. 

Q. But you knew there w T as a desire on the part of all the 
officers of that publishing company and the owners to dispose 
of the paper? A. I remember now of suggesting to a gentle- 
man in Chicago that I thought the paper could be had, might 
be bought. 

Q. As a matter of fact, did you think that there was a dis- 
position or an effort on the part of the principal owner to sell 
the paper secretly, without your knowledge? A. Yes, I did. 

Q. Why ? A. Because it was sold secretly ; I heard also of 
the fact that clergymen had been approached on the subject of 
the editorial chair, and I heard of subterraneous movements 
for the sale of the paper, the step taken in such a way as im- 
pressed me with the fact that they did not want me to know 
what was being done, and which finally culminated in the fact 
that I found that it was so. 



606 



Q. These overtures made to these different gentlemen to be- 
come editor or editors of this paper, might not those overtures 
have been made conditional in case of the withdrawal of you 
from the chair on account of the financial condition of the 
paper ? A. They were not in several cases ; I know positively 
they were not ; they were positive offeis of the editorial chair. 

Q. Would you be willing to give us instances ? A. "Well, I 
prefer not to, because it would be unpleasant for the gentlemen 
themselves — two gentlemen in the bouse this afternoon; I 
know of two others. 

Q. D.d Mr. Hallock tell yon, in his interview at the Astor 
House, that he bought the paper ? A. Do you mean on Mon- 
day? 

Q. Yes ? A. No, sir; lie told me he had thought of buying 
it, using about the same phraseology — I cannot remember the 
verbiage — that on previous occasions he used. 

Q. If Mr. Hallock had not bought the paper, why did he 
lay the memorandum before you, offering you a compensation 
to become its editor? A. Well, it was in the same mood in 
wdiich I had frequently met him ; he had a salutation of this 
kind almost always where I would see him ; I remember once 
on Fulton street, " Well, have you bought the paper?" he 
said, " No, but I am going to some time — I am thinking of it,'' 
and I suppose it was in that same indefinite way. 

Q. At this time, as a matter of fact, didn't you think he had 
ceased thinking of buying the paper and had actually pur- 
chased it ? A. No ; I did not. 

• Q. Didn't you repeatedly, in conversation, give Mr. Hallock 
to believe that if he had bought the paper you would continue 
to be its editor and serve him in that capacity even a year for 
nothing? A. No; that was on one occasion most emphati- 
cally I gave him to understand I would serve him a year for 
nothing if he would purchase it in that very severe crisis of 
the paper, at the time of the interview at Mr. Corwin's ; then 
I told him very distinctly, I told him then, I felt we were on 
the rocks, and the idea came into my mind that it was hardly 
worth while to write any editorial of it, because it seemed we 
should hardly have another issue. 

Q. Did you, on any subsequent occasion, give Mr. Hallock 



607 



to understand that this promise still remained in force, pro- 
vided he should buy the paper ? A. I have no remembrance 
of that. 

Q. Did you, from youi pulpit, announce that it was the im- 
pression on the part of the publisher that you would go with 
it? A. I don't remember my announcement ; I remember I 
made some announcement, but what I said I don't remember ; 
it is impossible for me to recall my publications. 

Q. You testified, I am told, to that yesterday ? A. What 
was tli at ? 

Q. Did you announce, from your pulpit, that the impression 
on the part of the publisher was that you would go with it? 
A. I don't remember ; I don't really remember what I said on 
that occasion. 

Q. (By Mr. Crosby.) It was published in the Advance ? A. 
Yes, sir ; I read it over, and remember saying at the time that 
I had no remembrance of what I said. 

Q. (By Mr. Millard.) I think you added that you " pre- 
sumed that was correct ?" A. Yes, sir. 

Q. (By Mr. Crosby.) After reading it all over yesterday, you 
said that was true, whether that was what you stated or not ? 
A. About a sudden change — surreptitious, and all that— that 
is true. 

Q. (By Mr. McCullagh.) Then, I would repeat the ques- 
tion ; did you announce, from your pulpit, that it was the im- 
pression on the part of the publisher that you would go 
with it? A. I don't remember ; I have no remembrance of it 
a all ; I have not a remembrance of anything in that article, 
but I don't dispute it. 

Q. Do you remember that you did not make such an an- 
nouncement ? A. I don't remember what I said ; I don't re- 
member anything in connection with it. 

Q. How did the purchaser get the impression that you would 
go with him, and you believed that he had such an impression, 
if he had not on certain occasions received words tantamount 
to its effect that you would continue its editor ? A. I don't 
remember that I said that ; I may have, and I do not dis- 
pute it. 

Q. Then how would you account for this impression exist- 



608 



ing on the part of the publisher if you had only once, a long 
time before that, given him the promise at Mr. Cor win's house? 
A. I cannot recall my announcement. 

Q. (By Mr. Crosby.) Yesterday you testified, after reading 
this over, that it was true; it is the announcement that was 
printed in that paper, in Chicago, on the 19th? A. Some of 
those things I know that they w 7 ere true, but, as to remem- 
bering an announcement I gave among publications three 
years ago, it is an impossibility. 
By Mr. McCdllagh : 

Q. Then you aie not prepared to say how Mr. Hallock could 
have received the impression that you would go with him ? A. 
I don't know what impressions were on his mind; I can only 
tell the impressions on mine. 

Q. You have testified that you have, from your pulpit, an- 
nounced that, when the paper was sold, the impression on the 
mind of the publisher was that you would go with it as its 
editor? A. Yes, sir ; but I have no recollection of the matter 
at all. 

Q. As a matter of fact, did you know that the Christian at 
Work Publishing Company would have refused to have al- 
lowed you, as retiring editor, to have inserted a proper vale- 
dictory ? A. I do know it as a matter of fact ; it is de- 
monstrated by the fact that they suppressed the edition in 
which my valedictory was going. 

Q. I preceded the word " valedictory " by the word 
" proper ;" there may be a difference between the answer and 
that ; I ask you the question again ? 

Q. (.Repeated.) A. Yes, I know it as a matter of fact, be- 
cause my valedictory was a proper valedictory. 

Q. Do you believe that that valedictory was calculated to 
injure the paper? A. No, I do not; I cannot imagine any 
other valedictory that a man could write when he is going out 
of a paper unless he gives some litte idea where he is going or 
why he is going. 

Q. Did yon, as a matter of fact, believe that the design of 
the Christian at Work Publishing Company was to drop you as 
editor, in disgrace? A. Yes; of some men in it. 



609 



Q. Who ? A. Well, I think, perhaps, I had better decline 
to answer that. 

Pending the examination of Dr. Talmage, Presbytery ad- 
journed. 

J. M. GEEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



April 22d, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 22d, at 2J p. m. 

The Eev. Br. Talmage was recalled, and testified as follows : 
By Mr. Crosby: 

Q. You said yesterday, I believe, that there were three 
grounds upon which you based your belief or knowledge of 
Mr. Eemington's enmity to you, and the first one that you 
mentioned was the exasperating nature of the letters that you 
received from him ; now, sir, you stated a few days before that 
those letters were all destroyed, I should Lke to ask you when 
they were destroyed? A. I don't know ; I found two of those 
letters some weeks ago ; they were exhumed by a member of 
my family accidentally, from a great many letters, the ac- 
cumulation of years, and I carried two of them in my pocket 
two or three weeks during this trial, but where they are I don't 
know ; I have been looking for them. 

Q. Have you made thorough search for them ? A. I have ; 
I may find them, perhaps, before the trial is over. 

Q. Were all the others destroyed ? A. I don't know ; I sup- 
pose they were. 

Q. Have you searched for any others ? A. I have to some 
extent ; it is almost a hopeless search ; letters of that style in 
my household have a very brief existence. 

Q. Have you destroyed any letters from Mr. Eemington, 
during the last two weeks ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Have you destroyed any letters from him since the be- 
ginning of this trial ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Have you destroyed any since the resolution which re- 
sulted in this trial was first introduced ? A. No, sir ; I have 
not seen any of Mr. Eemington's letters since, but those two 
that I speak of. 

Q. Were those two very exasperating in their nature ? A. 
77 



610 



One was ; the other I did not read through ; it was a long let- 
ter of some two or three sheets. 

' Q. The others are all gone? A. Yes, sir; I don't know 
where they are. 

Q. Did you ever communicate with Mr. Eemington the fact 
that he annoyed and exasperated you, and that you considered 
him your enemy ? A. I don't know as I did ; I never write 
anything of that kind that I know of ; if I feel exasperated I 
generally keep it to myself. 

Q. Is it your habit to destroy all letters and papers which 
bear badly against other men? A. It is a rule of my life to 
destroy everything unpleasant. 

Q. Have you not said within the last few weeks in regard to 
a certain member or members of this Presbytery, " I have put 
a number of things in my pigeon holes which would make 
cheerful reading ?" A. I don't know ; I have a great deal of 
cheerful reading. 

Q. Yes, sir ; and I ask you if you have said that, or words to 
that effect, recently ? A. I don't remember whether I did or 
not. 

Q. Was it uot another reason that you gave for your belief 
in Mr. Remington's enmity, was his treatment of your friends ; 
in the first place, Mr. Corwin ; now was it not at your earnest 
persuasion and personal solicitation, that Mr. Corwin was en- 
gaged by the Trustees of the Christian at Work as publisher? 
A. At the time we were looking for a publisher, I suggested. 
Mr. Corwin's name. 

r Q. I ask you — — ? A. But I would like to finish that, if 
you please. 

Q. I should like to have you answer my question, if you 
please ; I put the question directly, and would like to have a 
categorical answer, yes or no, whether it was not at your ear- 
nest persuasion and solicitation thatMr. Corwin was engaged as 
publisher ? A. Yes, and no. 

Q. Did you not promise, if his management was not a suc- 
cess, you would serve the paper a year for nothing? A. I 
did, and would have done so. 

Q. Do you not know, sir, that during the six months of Mr. 
Corwin's management the cash receipts were $5,000 less than 



611 



during the same period of the previous year ; that is from the 
books ? A. I don't know any such thing ; I know that every- 
thing brightened up the moment Mr. Corwin stepped into the 
office, and continued to brighten, until at the end of three 
months Mr. Remington began to make the place uncomfort- 
able for him. 

Q. Don't you know tha^ Mr. Corwin secured a lease of rooms 
from the Metropolitan Insurance Company for five years, when 
he had been authorized to secure it for only one year ? A. I 
don't know the particulars of that engagement ; I know he en- 
gaged, after receiving a telegram from Mr. Remington, consent- 
ing that he should do so, that he made an engagement of the 
rooms at a cheaper rate. 

Q. I ask you again, and should like to get = an answer to the 
question ; don't you know that Mr. Corwin secured a lease of 
rooms from the Metropolitan Insurance Company for five years, 
when he had been authorized to secure it for only one year ? 
A. I don't think I ever read the lease, and about the length of 
time for which the lease was made, I know not. 

Q. Didn't you know at that time? A. No. 

Q. There is a letter of yours presented here in evidence, in 
which you state that the lease of five years was secured be- 
cause you supposed the paper would last as long. as that? A. 
I don't remember the letter ; I don't remember whether the 
lease was for five years or one year, now ; it has long gone by. 

Q. "Were you not present at a meeting of the Board of 
Trustees, when it was unanimously resolved that we unanim- 
ously call Mr. Corwin to be our publisher, on terms presented 
in committee's report, as made, and was not the following a 
part of the terms upon which Mr. Corwin was engaged : " If 
" Major B. R. Corwin will accept the position and faithfully 
" perform the duties of the Christian at Work Publishing Com- 
" pany, under the regulations of the constitution and by-laws 
"of the said company ?" A. I do not have any remembrance 
of that meeting ; no doubt there was a meeting held, but I must 
explain one of my answers; while I commended Mr. Corwin as 
the man best adapted for the place, I invariably gave the gen- 
tlemen to understand that they must not engage him because I 
recommended him, but if they engaged him at all it must be 
through their appreciation of his qualifications for that place. 



612 

Q. But you endorsed him very heartily and cordially ? A. 
I did then, and do now. 

Q. Then one of the terms upon which Mr. Cor win was en- 
gaged, was that he should perform his duties under the consti- 
tution and by-laws of said company ; now, sir, was not this 
one of the by-laws of the company : " That the publisher 
" shall have power to make purchases and contracts, save in 
" matters of special importance, involving large amounts, or 
" extended time, when they shall be subject to the approval of 
" the board ; he shall also present a monthly statement of the 
" business of the company?" A. I never read the by-laws, as 
I remember. 

Q. Now, Major Corwin having engaged a lease for five years, 
when he was only authorized to engage it for one? A. I 
didn't say that. 

Q. I didn't say you did, sir; I say that being a fact, did he 
not break the terms of his contract in binding the company to 
a five years' lease, without the knowledge or consent of the 
owners ? A. I don't think Mr. Corwin is capable of breaking 
a contract. 

Q. New, sir, I want to call your attention to a paper already 
in evidence here; please look at that? (Paper handed to 
witness.) A. Do you expect me to read that ? 

Q. I will read it to you, if you prefer it? A. It is Egyptian 
hieroglyphics to me. 

Mr. Crosby — It is in evidence already ; Exhibit E, April 
16th ; it is a proposal by Mr. Bright to the composers of the 
Christian at Work. "For what will they set up and compose 
" and make ready on forms of twenty pages, just as it comes, in 
u long primer, brevier, nonpareil, or agate type, as ordered, per 
" week ; then in Major Corwin's handwriting ; I hope they 
" will say $100 per week, B. B. C." " For how much will they 
" do our mail list, as now done, regardless of number of 
" names ? How much will they do all our job-printing for in 
" small or large quantities, as done in the past, giving us 
" the preference over everybody, we furnishing the paper?" 
Then, again, in Mr. Corwin's handwriting, " the above is Mr. 
" Bright's inquiry ; he is tiyiug to make figures just for the 
" occasion, that will not be lived up to, for he is very ambitious 



618 



" to say, I did it ; the composing-rooin has been costing $180 
" per week ; now, tell L. & Cobb to offer to do it for $100 a 
" week, and we will see that they do not lose by the offir ; 
" tell them not to be afraid that we will take advantage of 
" them ;" did you ever see that paper sir ? No, sir ; I never 
saw it. 

Q. Didn't you know that was addressed to you? A. I don't 
know ; it may have been. 

Q. You say you never saw it? A. Oh! I don't know ; I 
may have seen it; I don't remember it. 

Q. In regard to that, I would ask you, didn't you send for 
Leverich and Cobb to come to your house and make the 
arrangement suggested in that paper ? A. I don't have any 
remembrance of that. 

Q. Didn't Mr. Leverich and Mr. Cobb, in response to 
your request, call at your house, and didn't you propose to 
them to make an agreement to make up and compose the 
paper for $100 a week ? A. I have no remembrance of that ; 
they were frequently at my house in connection with the 
paper, 

Q. Do you remember their telling you they could not do 
so without loss ? A. I don't remember that. 

Q. Do you remember promising that they should lose 
nothing by an arrangement that you and Major Cor win sug- 
gested to them ? A. No ; I don't have that remembrance. 

Q. Do you remember telling them that Major Corwin would 
see they lost nothing by it ? A. I don't remember anything 
like that. 

Q. Did you, or as far as you know, did Major Corwin ever 
make up to Messrs. Leverich and Cobb any loss which 
they sustained in carrying out this arrangement, suggested in 
this note ? A. I never knew they met with any loss. 

Q. They did. A. This is the first I have heard of it. 

Q. The other friend of yours who was ill-treated by Reming- 
ton, you said, was Mr. Bright, who was your friend ; now, sir, 
have you always spoken of Mr. Bright as your friend ? A. I 
cannot recall all my conversations in regard to Mr. Bright. 

Q. Do you remember speaking of him in a way that is not 
friendly? A. I. do not remember any such time. 



614 



Q. Didn't you say, soon after yon left the Christian at Work, 
words to the following effect : " The slnr inserted in the Sun, 
" from the pen of one Bright, who now styles himself managing 
" editor of the Christian at Work, is a form of retaliation for 
" reprimands I had to give him verbally and in writing, for 
" repeated blunders or willful violations of my directions in the 
" conduct of the paper ; his infidelity, stupidity, or bad 
" temper embroiled the paper with nearly all the journals of 
" the clay ; he was perpetually nagging in a manner as absurd 
" as it was malignant ; that is what is the matter with Mr. 
" Bright, whose name belies both his manner and his talent ;" 
did you ever use words to that effect ? A. I have no remem- 
brance of it. 

Q. Now, sir, I should like to ask you whether at the time 
that Major Bright was receiving these annoyances from Mr. 
Remington A. I didn't say he was receiving these annoy- 

ances from Mr. Remington; I was receiving them in regard to 
Mr. Bright. 

Q. Mr. Bright then, so far as your knowledge is concerned, 
was not receiving any annoyances from Mr. Remington ? A. 
I don't know how much I said to him in regard to it, or 
whether I said much. 

Q. Now, sir, as to the negotiations with other ministers, you 
gave that also, as a reason why you believed Mr. Remington 
was your enemy, because he was negotiating with other 
ministers ; had you not said some time in the spring that you 
would leave the paper inevitably in the fall ? A. I said so in 
my conversation with Mr. Dickinson. 

Q. You had announced that you would inevitably leave in 
the fall ; what was there unjust or inimical to you in Mr. 
Remington's seeking to supply your place when you would go, 
in case you should go ? A. He sought before that to supply 
my place. 

Q. When he found you were going, he didn't try any more 
to supply your place, did he ? A. He may have done so ; how 
much I don't know ; indeed, I know it was continued, but I 
know it was also so before that. 

Q. Let us see, as a matter of fact, whether there were any 
serious negotiations ; can you tell me these clergymen whom 
he was negotiating with ? A. I prefer not to state their names. 



615 



Q. Was Dr. Porter one of them ? A. I decline to mention 
their names ; I knew of four persons to whom application had 
been made. 

Q. Dr. Porter has testified here in regard to that, that he 
received a tentative offer from Mr. Bright, in case you should 
withdraw ; was Dr. Ludlow one of these ? A. I decline to 
answer. 

Q. Was the Rev. Alfred Taylor one of them ? A. I decline 
to answer that. 

Q. Was Dr. William M. Taylor one of them ? A. I think 
he was. 

Q. It has been testified here that there were no negotiations 

with him ; were there any others A. I will say in regard 

to that, that since these proceedings have been begun, Mr. 
Dickinson told me that with Mr. Pvemington, he was with Dr. 
Taylor of New York, in negotiation in regard to becoming 
editor. 

Q. Were there any other clergymen besides those four I 
have mentioned? A. I said there were four, I did not say 
who they were. 

Q. Were there any others? A. There may have been others, 
besides the four that I think of. 

Q. These were not the four that you thought of? A. That 
you say, but I didn't say. 

Q. I am asking you ; one witness here on the stand, has 
testified in regard to you — Mrs. Talmage — £k I have known him 
" sometimes to write a pretty severe letter. He always burns 
" it before the end of the w T eek ; " now, sir, without of course, 
questioning Mrs. Talmage's understanding of that, as a matter 
of fact, is it so, that you do not write and send severe letters ? 
A. Oh, I suppose 1 do sometimes. 

Q. Is it a habit of yours to write severe letters to people ? 
A. No, sir; it is not my habit. 

Q. 1 call your attention to these letters that are in evidence ; 
the one which you wrote to Mr. Hathaway, in which you say, 
k< the last letter I wrote to Dr. Hall he answered insolently, 
' and so cannot write again." A. Yes, sir ; I know why that 
was put in evidence ; it was to bring me in collision with Dr. 
Hall ; I understand all that. 



616 



Q. Also this letter, which is in evidence, in which you speak 
of Oliver Johnson as the spiritualist, free-lover, and Frothing 
hainite infidel; also this letter, in which you speak of Mr. 
King: "We can do nothing until Mr. King is entirely out ; 
" newspaper business needs to be done with closed doors, and 
" we cannot afford to have our plans telegraphed all through 
" the newspaper offices." 

Q. Please identify that letter ? (handing paper to witness.) 
A. I think it is my writing. 

Mr. Crosby reads as follows : 

"East Hampton, L. I., Aug. 28, 75. 

" Deae Mr. Kemington, — I hear from New York that negotia- 
" tions for publisher have failed ; I feel that failure to secure 
" a publisher very speedily is a death blow to our paper, in 
" consequeuce of Mr. King's extensive advertisemsnt in con- 
" nection with the Christian Union ; the impression is abroad 
" that we are about to disband ; we are now under the manip- 
" ulation of the Christian Union, My. Hawley having full con- 
" fidence in Mr. King, but I feel everything depends on prompt 
" action in the matter, and you hold our fate in your hands : 
" Mr. Havemeyer has full faith in Mr. King, and but for your 
" intervention, we drop into the hands of the Christian Union, 
" edited by Oliver Johnson ; Mr. King represents himself every 
" way as assistant publisher of the Christian Union, and pub- 
" lisher of the Christian at Work : you see the effect of that; 
" hoping that we may be divinely directed, in this crisis of the 
" paper, and thanking you for your self-sacrificing interest in 
" our behalf, 

" I am, yours, etc., 

" T. De WITT TALMAGE." 
That is dated August 28, 1875 ; the other letter about Mr. 
King is dated May 17, 1875 ? A. Mr. Moderator, have I an 
opportunity now to explain that letter ? 

The Modeealoe — Not without the permission of counsel. 

By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. I will give you an opportunity in a moment ; I should 
like to ask you whether, between these two dates of writing 
these letters, you signed the following resolution : 

" Resolved, In accepting Colonel King's resignation, the board 



617 



" yield with reluctance to claims which call him to another 
" field of labor. That they bear testimony to the ability, the 
" unswerving fidelity, and the constant assiduity with which 
" he has performed his several duties since his connection with 
" the paper. That they bear willing testimony also to his 
" high persuasive character, and assure him of their heartiest 
" good wishes and personal friendship. They thank him for 
" the devotion shown and the important services rendered to 
" the paper, and shall personally ever entertain the liveliest 
" interest in his future welfare." 

Q. Did you sign that resolution ? A. I did ; that is my 
opinion of Mr. King. 

Q. Then your opinion of Mr. King in those letters was not 
true ? A. It was at that time — Mr. King was misrepresented 
to me by persons in the Christian at Work office ; they had filled 
my mind with prejudices against Mr. King, which I found were 
unfounded. 

Q. Can you explain how it is that this resolution goes in 
between the two letters, in both of which you speak of Mr. 
King in very deprecating terms ? A. I don't know, except 
that during the last six months of my stav in the Christian at 
Work office there were many things breathed into my ear in 
regard not only to Mr. King, but in regard to other persons, 
and my views of men may have vacillated under that constant 
gossip. • 

Q. So that in May, 1875, you characterized Mr. King very 
severely ; in July you write and send this thorough endorse- 
ment of him, and in August you again write of him very 
severely? A. To give you my idea of Mr. King now — I have 
a very high appreciation of him, since I have entirely left tli6 
Christian at Work office, and hear no more of the bombard- 
ment that was going on against him. 

Q. Mr. Hawley, however, had confidence in him, and also 
Mr. Havemeyer ; you referred to the contract made with the 
Christian at Work Company in 1873, by which you engaged to 
be editor for fifteen years ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was not a new company formed after you became the 
editor ? A. There was reorganization ; I don't exactly know 
in what shape. 
78 



618 



Q. In 1874, was not a new company formed ? A. I don't 
know whether new papers were made or not. 

Q. Did this contract hold over? A. I have never put any 
stress upon the original contract ; I merely mention that in 
response to the question that was asked me, as to how long I 
was engaged for, when I became editor, which was fifteen 
years. 

Q. Was there any other contract ? A. I don't remember ; 
I don't think there was any contract written until the mem- 
orandum I made with Mr. Dickinson. 

Q. Now, I should like to ask you some questions in regard 
to your interview with Mr. Hallock and Mr. Corwin, at Mr. 
Corwin's house ; you say, " Mr. Remington had told us he 
" would see the paper through the month of February, but no 
" further ;" did he tell you that personally? A. Well, where 
I got my information, I know not, but it was in the office ; we 
all had the information, and all knew it. 

Q. When did you obtain that information ? A. Well, at the 
time ; whether by letter or telegram, or by Mr. Remington's 
presence, I don't know. 

Q. What time ? A. Just during February, I think ; per- 
haps February or January ; when he said that through Feb- 
ruary he would 

Q. You knew he was threatening to drop the paper 
immediately? A. Well, it was liable to be dropped at any 
time. 

Q. Now, sir, I would ask you in reference to this letter of 
yours, which is in evidence, if you can explain this expression ; 
it is dated 

" February 7th, 1876. 

" Dear Mr. Remington : 

" We still live, and through your help and the Lord's bless- 
" ing exgect to live." 

Q. Is that true ? A. Well, we should live, certainly, if the 
Lord helped us. 

Q. That is not what you say here ; did you expect to live as 
a newspaper, through Mr. Remington's help ? A. If the Lord 
had added his blessing, we should certainly expect to live. 

Q. You think the Lord did not add his blessing? A. I 



619 



should not like to define the line at which the Lord ceases to 
bless us. 

Q. While you were expecting at any moment the paper 
might stop, you wrote to Mr. Kemington this : " We still live, 
" and through your help and the Lord's blessing, expect to 
" live? " A. I expected to live ; I live now. 

Q. You think that explains that paragraph ? A. I don't ex- 
actly know what I proposed there. 

Q. " Retrenchment is the word all through our paper ;" you 
were evidently talking about the paper ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. " Instead of Mr. Taylor, we get a man as good for $600, 
" who will do all Mr. Taylor's work, and more besides ; we 
" shall save $800 by the change ?" A. I will explain that. 

Q. I don't care about that. A. You had better let me. 

Q. " We shall have our temperance department kept up 
" spiritedly ; we hope that our efforts will be equal to your 
" expectation, and that the sfcorm-tossed Christian at Work 
" will sail out into smooth waters ;" was that true ? A. Was 
what true ? 

Q. What I have just read : " We hope our efforts will be 
" equal to your expectations, and that the storm-tossed Chris- 
" tian at Work will sail cut into smooth waters." A. I hoped 
for smooth waters ahead somewhere. 

Q. In regard to this lease, which was made on the 6th day 
of February, there is a letter in evidence which says, in regard 
to this term of five years, that that lease was made on the 
supposition that the paper would last as long as that ; will you 
explain to me the reason why that lease was made, and how 
could you write the letter to Mr. Remington, when you ex- 
pected that every moment the paper would stop? A. I have 
no remembrance of writing in that way ; I shall have to read 
the letter all over before I can answer. 

The Moderator — What is the date of that letter? 

Mr. Crosby — It is undated ; the contents show that it was 
written shortly after Mr. Corwin left the Christian at Work 
Company, which was the last of March. 

Q. You heard Dr. Porter's testimony, did you not ? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Did you hear him testify that he received a letter from 



620 



yon in February, in which you said that you hoped for better 
times in regard to the paper? A. I heard him say that. 

Q. Then you wrote to Dr. Porter afc that time, telling him 
that you looked for better times on the paper ? A. I don't re- 
member any letter of that kind. 

Q. According to his testimony, you did. A. I have no re- 
membrance of that letter. 

Q. Mr. Corwin, in his statement, which is sworn to, and which 
you indorsed, says that Mr. Hallock was to furnish the sub- 
scribers for the uuexpired term of their subscriptions; what 
did you mean, according to the statement of Mr. Corwin, that 
you indorsed, about Mr. Hallock's looking to the renewal of 
subso iptions for his remuneration ? A. There are persons 
subscribing nearly every day in the progress of the } T ear, but 
whether there were new subscriptions at that time, I do not 
know. 

Q. It was in the spring ? A. There are additions of sub- 
scribers all the time throughout the year. 

Q. Would those be renewal subscriptions? A. They might 
be renewals, and there might be new T subscriptions. 

Q. "Was it proposed b}' you at that time to use the list of 
subscribers of the Christian at Work for the new paper, with 
the new name which you asked Mr. Hallock to publish on his 
type? A. I don't remember of any proposition of that kind; 
the supposition was that the paper was going to stop ; the only 
thing that made an impression upon my mind in that conver- 
sation was that if the paper stopped, there would be a large 
number of persons to whom the paper would owe a year's sub- 
scription or nine months' subscription, and that it would seem 
to be a great wrong to those subscribers, some of whom made 
their subscription with a great deal of self-denial, if they could 
not get their paper. 

Q. You said that Mr. Hallock was to look for his remunera- 
tion to the renewals of the subscriptions ; did you not then 
contemplate the continuance of the paper after these unex- 
pired terms were filled? A. I don't remember the minutiae of 
that at all ; there is only one thing which has impressed itself 
upon my mind, and that is the idea that I have just men- 
tioned. 



621 



Q. Did you in the statement which you indorsed at the time 
A. I cannot remember what the action of my mind was at the 
time, except what I have stated. 

Q. Who owned that subscription list of the Christian at Work? 
A. I don't know ; I suppose the stockholders. 

Q. If the paper had failed, as you say you feared it would, 
would not that list have belonged to the creditors? A. I don't 
know what the law would have decided in the matter. 

Q. Does not the subscribers' list of a paper have a market- 
able value ? A. It depends upon circumstances ; if the paper 
were dropped under circumstances which were disgraceful, the 
list would not be of very great value. 

Q. Whether it was of great value or little value, was it not 
among the assets of the paper ? 

Q. Did you know that Mr. Hallock paid $10,000 for that 
list ? A. No, sir ; I did not know it. 

Q. Haven't you heard that he paid $10,000 for it? A. No, 
sir ; I have not. 

Q. Did you know that Mr. Hallock's remuneration was to 
be out of this subscription list of the Christian at Work ? A. 
I don't remember the circumstances except two or three that 
I have mentioned. 

Q. Did you see the advertisement signed A. S. Ford, at 
the time it was published, offering a paper for sale without 
mentioning the name of the paper? A. I don't remember 
having seen it until the commencement of this trial ; I saw it 
in one of the scrap-books here. 

Q. Did you know that the paper was being offered for sale ? 
A. I heard that it was. 

Q. Did you not send Kev. Alfred Taylor to Mr. Alvord, to 
negotiate about buying the paper in behalf of yourself, or in 
behalf of your friends, about the time that that advertisement 
appeared ? A. I have no remembrance of any such circum- 
stance. 

Q. Did you know that Rev. Alfred Taylor had called once 
or twice upon Mr. Alvord, in regard to the purchase of the 
paper by you or your friends ? A. No, sir ; I have no re- 
membrance now of it. 

Q. Did you never learn that |the Rev. Alfred Taylor made 



622 



an offer in your name or in the name of your friends to Mr. 
Alvord, for the purchase of the paper about the time that 
the advertisement appeared ? A. I have no remembrance of 
that. 

Q. Will you swear that it was not so? A. I have no re- 
membrance of it. 

Q. Didn't Mr. Remington himself tell you that he would sell 
the paper ? A. I don't know as he did, I had an idea that he 
would like to sell it. 

Q. Did you ever have any correspondence with him on the 
subject of the sale of the paper ? A. I don't remember now 
of having any correspondence of that nature with him. 

Q. Didn't he offer it for sale to you, or, through you, to your 
friends ? A. I have some indefinite remembrance of his writ- 
ing to me once in regard to the paper, I think perhaps two 
years before. 

Q. Did you not, in the spring of 1876, write two or three 
times, certainly twice, to Mr. Remington suggesting parties 
who would buy the paper ? A. I remember suggesting to 
some one connected with the office, a gentleman from Chicago; 
my idea in suggesting him was, that he was a special friend, 
and I wanted to secure his coming to New York ; that is the 
reason of it ; it was not, however, any gentleman whose name 
has been mentioned here. 

Q. Did you not try to find a purchaser for the paper ? A. 
Yes, sir ; but I have not any remembrance of making any such 
effort ; I would have been very glad for some person to have 
bought it so as to have taken it out of that management 
which was to me unpleasant to the very last degree of un- 
pleasantness. 

Q. I want to ask you about this letter, which has been put 
in evidence, which is called the " non committal letter," in 
which you say to Mr. Hallock " better be non-committal in 
your conversation with Remington ; don't tell him about what 
other paper we might absorb in our new project ; " what was 
the new project ? A. Now, you are coming to private business 
matters. 

Q. I don't want you to go into the details ? A. I can't 
answer your question now, because you are coming to my 



623 



private business matters ; the next sentence of that letter 
gives some light perhaps on what you are inquiring about. 

Q. "Nor, how much capital ; I told him I thought we could 
get almost any amount of capital ;" the "we" has reference 
to Mr. Hallock and yourself ? A. That letter was written to 
Mr. Hallock, I suppose that is what must have been meant by 
" we" 

Q. In commenting upon this letter in your direct-examina- 
tion, you have said in regard to this " nor how much capital : 
I told him I thought we could get almost any amount of cap- 
ital ; " that those words did not mean any amount of capital 
to the extent of twenty millions of dollars, but that they meant 
enough capital sufficient for a newspaper ; this letter was in 
reference to newspapers, wasn't it? A. At that time Mr. Hal- 
lock a'ad myself, and I think at different times on the street 
and elsewhere had talked newspaper ; he seemed to be quite 
desirous of purchasing the Christian at Work ; I met him at 
various times when this was talked of. 

Q. Did you talk with Mr. Remington about that ? A. That 
I don't remember ; I gave Mr. Hallock a letter to Mr. Reming- 
ton once, but I think that was in regard to his becoming the 
publisher. 

Q. Will not this remind you, " But Remington is decidedly 
disposed to quote you, and try to bring your statements into 
collision with mine ;" did you have any conversation with Mr. 
Remington about Mr. Hallock buying the paper ? A. I think 
I did ; either that or publishing it ; my first acquaintance with 
Mr. Hallock was in consequence of the offer that he made to 
become the publisher ; we were without a publisher, I think. 

Q. But the use of the word " capital" would seem to indi- 
cate that the letter was not about his being publisher ? A. Mr. 
Hallock represented himself as having some friend standing 
behind him. 

Q. Did you know who that friend was? A. No, sir ; I did 
not. 

Q. Can you tell what the date of this letter is — it is not 
dated, you say — " I leave for Montreal to-day ;" it was un- 
doubtedly written in the spring of 1876 ; can you fix the date 
from the fact of your going to Montreal ? A. I cannot ; I 



(J24 



have no idea what time it was ; I think I was in Montreal 
twice, connected with some engagement there ; I suppose I 
could tell by my memorandum books. 

Q. I call your attention to this little note, in lead pencil : 
"Mr. Hallock — Please be at my house a little before seven this 
evening ; I wrote Remington the letter we proposed ;" that is 
signed by you, and says, "Thursday;" do you remember the 
meeting that resulted from that ? A. Yes ; I think it is the 
meeting Mr. Eemington referred to in his testimony. 

Q. Who were the other parties to whom you referred in your 
letter to Mr. Remington ; Mr. Remington has testified that he 
received a letter not mentioning Mr. Hallock's name, but stat- 
ing that there were certain gentlemen that you expected him to 
meet ? A. I don't know ; there were several gentlemen talk- 
ing about newspaper projects with me, and which of them I 
had expected there or invited there at that time, I cannot now 
sav. 

Q. As matter of fact, were there any other gentlemen here 
besides you and Mr. Hallock and Mr. Remington present at 
that meeting ? A. I don't think there was that night. 

Q. Can you state the substance of the conversation ? A. I 
cannot ; Mr. Remington, I think, was very desirous to make 
some arrangement about the paper ; I rather think that the 
suggestion came from Mr. Hallock for the meeting, but I 
remember the result of it ; Mr. Hallock, as he went away, said 
it would be impossible for him ever to make a bargain with 
that man. 

Q. Was that interview in the spring? A. 'That I cannot 
say. 

Q. Mr. Hallock was mistaken in that remark, wasn't he; 
he did make a bargain with that man afterwards ? A. He has 
made several mistakes. 

Q. Did you not have other interviews with Mr. Hallock on 
this subject of buying the paper from Mr. Remington? A. I 
think I saw Mr. Hallock half a dozen times at various points, 
in the streets and elsewhere, and we had but one salutation 
always, and that was in regard to the paper. 

Q. Didn't you make appointments to meet Mr. Hallock and 
talk with him about these matters ? A. Two or three times ; 



625 



and immediately after those letters I did have conferences with 
him or talked with him ; the whole of this occurred from some 
extra pressure in the paper ; there would come a crisis, and it 
would seem as if it would be obliged to stop, and then there 
would come another, and sometimes I wrote in one direction 
and sometimes in another. 

Q. These letters — this non-committal letter in which you 
spoke of negotiations with Mr. Hallock, and the letter ap- 
pointing a meeting at your own house with Mr. Kemington 
and Mr. Hallock, and these other letters which are in evidence, 
" Send me word where I can find you," &c, were they not in 
reference to conferences concerning the negotiations with Mr. 
Hallock about buying the paper? A. From the fact that all 
of them failed, I had come to form a decided belief that he 
never would buy the paper. 

Q. Did you know why Mr. Hallock would not buy the paper 
at that period of the year — in the spring ? A.I don't remem- 
ber that he stated anything of that kind. 

Q. These things, or most of them, occurred in the spring of 
1876 ; do you not know that the reason that Mr. Hallock 
would not buy the paper at that time, was simply because he 
didn t wish to carry it through the dull summer months at the 
price Mr. Remington then asked , that he wished to wait until 
the fall, after the dull summer months were over ? A. He 
didn't give that reason to me ; he gave me to understand that 
he could not make a bargain with Mr. Remington ; he said he 
was the hardest man he ever talked with on business matters ; 
h was so undecided and indefinite ; and so I got the idea 
from Mr. Hallock that there never would be any bargain be- 
tween them finally, although we kept up our habitual saluta- 
tion when we met each other in the street in regard to the 
paper. 

Q. You have testified to an agreement between you and Mr.. 
Dickinson about 30 days' notice ; you have testified also, that 
as a party to the agreement, you were entitled to 30 days' 
notice in the event of a sale of the paper, haven't you ? A. 
I testified that I was entitled to 30 days' notice. 

Q. You have testified, have you not, that you were entitled, 
by the terms of that agreement, to 30 days' notice in the eyent 
79 



626 



of the sale of the paper? A. I had no notice that the paper 
was to be sold ; it was sold surreptitiously. 

Q. That is not an answer to my question? A. I will tell 
you my idea about the 30 days' notice; if I see a man over- 
board, I don't expect him to give 30 days' notice of his inten- 
tion to swim ashore. 

Q. That is an illustration, but it is not an answer ; I will 
read this memorandum. [Keads agreement dated May 29th, 
1876.] Where is there anything in that agreement about the 
sale of the paper ? A. I didn't observe anything in reference 
to the sale of the paper there. 

Q. Isn't the only agreement on their part in this paper to 
pay you $30 per week salary? A. And to give ice 30 days' 
notice of the ending or cessation of our engagement. 

Q. The engagement then which was made, was that they 
were to give you 30 clays 1 notice, and were to pay'you $30 per 
week as salary, and that you were bound to furnish your 
sermons and editorials? A. That is your way of putting it. 

Q. Isn't that on the face of the agreement? A. I under- 
stood that each was to give 30 days' notice in case of the 
cessation of the agreement; I gave him four months' notice 
when I made the bargain ; I told him that I would go out in 
the autumn any way, but they did not give me any notice 

Q. If the paper were transferred or sold, you could still 
furnish your sermons and editorials for $30 per week? A. 
That would be a question of law. 

Q. Isn't that according to the face of the agreement? A. 
It is a legal question that I would not feel competent to de- 
cide. 

Q. If you considered that they were morally bound by that 
agreement to give you notice of the sale of the paper, were 
they morally bound to do so if Mr. Remington had been in- 
formed by Mr. Hallock that he was negotiating with you and 
was ready to pay you a larger salary than you were getting? 
A. That is too intricate a question to get through my mind. 

Q. Then we will leave it where it is for future use ; while 
you did not know the motive and plans of these two gentle- 
men in regard to the sale of the paper, have you any knowl- 
edge of their motives and plans in regard to yourself ? A. I 



don't know bow we are to judge of motives, except by the ex- 
pression of 'them, and then it depends upon whether the 
expression is an honest one or not. 

Q. What did you know of the plans? A. The plans in re- 
gard to what ? 

• Q. The sale of the paper ; did you know the details of their 
arrangement in regard to the sale of the paper ? A. I don't 
kuow what you refer to now ; do you mean the time that it 
was sold on Saturday ? 

Q. Yes; did you know the details of the arrangement be- 
tween Mr. Remington and Mr. Hallock at that sale ? A. I 
have forgotten now; I was informed between two and four 
o'clock on Monday afternoon by an employe that the paper 
was sold. 

Q. Did you know the details of the arrangement between 
Mr. Hallock and Mr. Remington when the paper was sold to 
Mr. Hallock ? A. I should have to refresh my memory be- 
fore I answer that question. 

Rev. Dr. Speak — The witness does not understand the ques- 
tion. 

Mr. Crosby — Then I will repeat it ; did you know the de- 
tails of the arrangement between Mr. Hallock and Mr. Rem- 
ington when Mr. Remington sold the paper to Mr. Hallock ? 
A. All I remember is, that it was sold — the impression was 
that it was sold to a gentleman in Philadelphia with whom 
Mr. Remington had been in conference. 

Q. Did you knoAV then that there was an attempt to drop 
you out of the paper in injury and disgrace? A. The long 
lane which led up to the event made me feel certain that the 
idea was to sell the paper surreptitiously, andtodrop me to my 
injury ; I thought so then, and I think so now, with more em- 
phasis. 

. Q. Did you think they were trying to deceive you ? A. I 
did. 

Q. Then to meet their deceit, you deceived them ? A. No ; 
I didn't deceive them. 

Q. To meet their deceit you put your valedictory in the 
paper without their knowledge or consent ? A. To meet their 
deceit I exercised my absolute right as editor, which right 
Dr. P rime and Dr. Porter say I had. 



Q. You have testified that at the time this agreement was 
made you gave four months' notice that you would leave the 
paper in the fall, any way ; now, if you gave four months' 
notice, as you state at the time you made the agreement, why 
did you stipulate about 30 days notice in the agreement? A. 
That was written by Mr. Dickinson and to please himself. 

Q. And signed by you to please yourself? A. It was just a • 
temporary arrangement. 

Q. That is the reason you stipulated for 30 days' notice 
when you had already given four months' notice? A. Mr. 
Dickinson wrote the memorandum ; it was an informal affair I 
I told him, now I will go anyway in the fall. 

Q. Did you read the memorandum over before you signed 
it ? A. I suppose I did ; the whole thing was so indefinite on 
my mind that I had forgotten the minutiae of it. 

Q. You hadn't forgotten when you first read it over ; I ask 
why you stipulated for 20 days' notice when you gave, at the 
time of making the agreement, as you say, four months' notice ? 
A. I think it was Mr. Dickinson's idea giving 30 days' notice ; I 
think I said afterwards, this is all right, but I give you now 
notice. 

Q. You have testified that they were bound to give you 
notice, can you tell me, if you had given them four months' 
notice how they were bound to give you 30 days notice ; 
you say you had given them four months' notice, how were 
they bound to give you auy notice ? A. The fact that I dis- 
charged my duty did not release them, from the discharge of 
their duty. 

Q. After giving four months' notice, as you say you did ; you 
would inevitably go out in the fall, why did you, afterwards, 
when Mr. Dickinson presented the circular of the paper and 
asked for suggestions, tell him that you had no change to 
suggest ? A. I had no suggestions to make to Mr. EemiDgton ; 
he had made too many suggestions to me. 

(Mr. Ceosby reads circular.) 

Q. That circular is an announcement sent out to the sub- 
scribers about the coming campaign, isn't it? A. I don't know 
what it is ; for I never read it. 

Q. Was it not calculated and intended to excite the expec- 



629 



tation that you were to be editor and write editorials and fur- 
nish sermons for the paper during the coming season ? A. 
My answer is, that I had nothing to do with that, had no 
responsibility for it, did not originate it, did not sanction it, 
and I disclaim any connection with it. 
Q. You didn't sanction it ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did Mr. Dickinson bring it to your house ? A. He was 
ther.e, at my house ; what he brought I don't remember. 

Q. Do you remember what the subject of the conversation 
was? A. I remember we talked something about the autumnal 
campaign. 

• Q. Did he say anything about the circular? A. That I 
don't remember now ; the only impression that conversation 
left upon my mind was, that I must be non-committal, as I 
was. 

Q. Did you allow that circular to go out without change, 
concealing from the subscribers that you were going to leave 
the paper ? A. I had no more to do with that than I had with 
writing the first chapter of Genesis. 

Q. Did you not, in saying to Mr. Dickinson that you had no 
change to suggest in regard to the circular, acquiesce and allow 
it to raise expectations which you d-d not mean to fulfil ? A. 
I disclaim any connection with that. 

Q. You then wished to conceal your plans from Mr. Rem- 
ington, and you thought you could also, by making no sugges- 
tions of change, conceal your plan from the subscribers ? A. I 
disclaim any connection with that at all. 

Q. You have testified that you have learned the fact that the 
paper had been sold, not from Mr. Hallock, but from an em- 
ployee and from fragments of a conversation which you over-' 
heard, have you not ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who was that employee? A. I don't remember. 

Q. Do you remember wnat position he held in the office ? 
A. I do not. 

Q. Have you ever talked with him since about it ? A. No, 
sir ; I had all the information I wanted that afternoon. 

Q. You testified that this employee had seen the contract ? 
A. Or a memorandum. 

Q. What did he tell you ? A. The minutiae of the conversa- 



63Q 

tion 1 cannot remember ; I know he told me the paper was 
sold. 

Q. Do you remember anything else that he said about it ? 
A. I cannot recall anj T thiiig now. 

Q. Did you question him in regard to the details ? A. Yes, 
sir ; I questioned him in a surprised way. 

Q. Did you ask who had bought it? A.I think not. 

Q. Did you ask him how much it was sold for ? A. That I 
don't remember. 

Q. Did you ask him whether there was any provision made 
for you in that contract or memorandum? A. I don't re- 
member. 

Q. Do you remember whether you questioned him carefully 
as to the details? A. The point upon which I questioned him 
was as to the certainty of his information. 

Q. Just one fact ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. All that you learned from this employee, whose name 
you do not remember and whose position you have forgotten, 
was the bare fact that the paper had been sold ? A. That it 
had been sold and that the sale was surreptitious. 

Q. Did he tell you that ? A. I found that out myself ; if I 
got any other impression I cannot recall it now. 

Q. Who were the persons who were conversing on this sub- 
ject, the fragments of whose conversation you overheard? A. 
I have suspicions as to who they were, but I have no positive 
knowledge ; therefore I will not express an opinion. 

Q. Were they whispering ? A. I cannot say. 

Q. What room were they in ? A. In the Secretary's room 
it was either there or in the hall. 

(Plan of offices shown witness.) 

Q. You were In the editorial room ? A. Yes, sir ; and they 
were either in the hall-way or here (referring to plan) ; I will 
not be positive as to where I overheard this conversation, but 
it was either here or there. 

Q. Whether they were in the hall or in the Secretary's room 
you cannot state ? A. That I cannot tell ; it was in confir- 
mation of the information that has been given to me. 

Q. You say you don't remember whether they were whis- 
pering? A. I don't remember now; the information given to 
me by the employee had made me on the alert. 



631 



Q. Were they talking in an ordinary tone of voice? A. 
That I cannot say. 

Q. The window was open or the sash of the door was open? 
A. Either the door or the window was open ; I have forgotten 
now how the editor's room was divided from the hall-way. 

Q. Was there an effort at concealment then on their part? 
A. It was a conversation that evidently was not intended for 
my ear ; I am not an eavesdropper, and I had no desire to 
listen. 

Q. What was the first thing that attracted your attention ? 
A. Remarks confirmatory of the statement which came to me 
from the employee. 

Q. Do you remember what they were ? A. I cannot remem- 
ber the words, but the conversation implied that the paper 
was sold. 

Q. Do you know who they were that were talking ? A. I 
said I had suspicions as to who they were, but could not state 
from positive knowledge. 

Q. Did you recognize their voices at the time ? A. I had 
suspicions. 

Q. How were those suspicions aroused by their voices ? A. 
I decline to answer that question because I see you want to 
develop that which I have no right to state, mere suspicion. 

Q. I want to know how you found out ; I don't ask you for 
their names ; I ask you whether you had your suspicion 
aroused by your recognizing their voices ; my object is to find 
out whether you heard distinctly enough to recognize their 
voices? A. I heard them distinctly enough to get confirmation 
of this statement which had been made by the employee. 

Q. Did you go, after you got this information in this w r ay — 
from an employee, whose name you have forgotten and whose 
position in the office you have forgotten, and who did 
not tell you anything of the details, and from these fragments 
of a conversation which you happened to overhear — to any of 
the officers of the company for more definite informa- 
tion? A. I had no conferences ; there was no disposition be- 
tween Mr. Remington and myself to have any conversation on 
anything. 

Q. Did you not go to any of the other officers of the com- 



632 



pany for information ? A. No, sir ; I felt I had enough infor- 
mation because I was on the watch for traps ; I knew that 
there had been a trap set for me, but did not know exactly 
where it was. 

Q. How did you know there had been a trap set for you ? 
A. I knew it in various ways. 

Q. Can't you tell us some of them ? A. By friends who told 
me of the antagonism between certain persons. 

Q. (Interrupting.) That is very general ; why didn't you seek 
more definite and positive information in regard to a matter 
of so much importance, from some of the officers of the com- 
pany ? A. I felt I had enough information and my judgment 
was right ; it has been proved by the sequence of facts that it 
was so, and that my information was correct. 

Q. You might h ive got still further information; if you had 
inquired you might have found that it was not surreptitious and 
not done without regard to your interest ; in a matter of so much 
importance, involving the interests of other men, did you go 
solely upon information obtained from an employee and from 
fragments of a conversation which you happened to over- 
hear '? A. And from fifty instances which led up to the event; 
I was looking for nitro-glycerins, and I tound it and it didn't 
take me a long while to get out of the way. 

Q. You say you knew the paper was sold, and on that infor- 
mation, you say, you think they then tried to deceive you ? 
A. I don't think anything about it ; I know it. 

Q. To meet their deceit you inserted your valedictory at 
night, without their knowledge or consent ? A. To meet their 
deceit I exercised my absolute right as editor-in-chief. 

Q. Y^ou think there was no deceit about that? A. Not a 
particle ; it was my last chance to say good bye. 

Q. We come now to the interview with Mr. Hallock, at the 
Astor House, on Monday, October 9th, the day upon which 
you put in your valedictory; you testified that that was held 
about noon; how did you come to have that interview? A. I 
think Mr. Hallock called me out ; my impression now is 
only from what has been told here, or told somewhere; some 
one, I think came to the editorial room and said a gentleman 
wanted to see me ; I think ifc was about the time of day that I 



633 



was through my hardest work, and I generally wandered out 
about noon to the Astor House or some other luncheon 
place. 

Q. Did you know or have any idea of what Mr. Hallock 
wanted at that interview which he sought? A. I don't re- 
member now ; he had been talking for a year and two months 
I think, occasionally, about purchasing the paper; I was very 
glad to get any information as to what was going on in the 
office, and going on among those who I thought were op- 
posed to myself. 

Q. Had you had a conversation with Mr. Hallock on the 
Friday preceding ? A. I cannot say ; Mr. Hallock says I 
did have a conversation with him, and I may have met him 
somewhere. 

Q. Did you make any sort of an appointment, definite or in- 
definite, for this meeting of Monday ? A. That I don't re- 
member. 

Q. You testified that Mr. Hallock did not tell you that he 
had bought the paper, but said merely that he thought of buy- 
ing it ; did you see the agreement which he brought for your 
signature ? A. It was rather an offer he made to me ; I think 
I either read it or he read it over to me, and the idea that im- 
pressed itself upon my mind was that he proposed that I 
should become editor, at a certain compensation. 

Q. Did he urge you to sign it? A. That I don't remember; 
I know it was under discussion, and that I declined to sign it. 

Q. Do you remember that he did not seem to care whether 
you signed it or not ? A. There was nothing that impressed 
me at that time. 

Q. Did you refuse positively to sign it? A. I did not 
sign it. 

Q. Did you refuse his offer positively and definitely ? A. I 
didn't sign the paper, so I must have refused it. 

Q. You misunderstand my question ; did you refuse his 
offer definitely and positively? A. I don't remember what 
conversation we had after that ; he offered me that paper and 
I did not sign it. 

Q. Don't you remember whether you positively declined the 
offer, once for all. A. No ; my memory is topical, and I re- 
80 



634 



member that he proposed, or asked me if in case he bought 
the paper, whether I would be editor; that was the subject of 
his remark. 

Q. Did you not say you would give him an answer the next 
day ; I don't remember ; I know 7 1 did give him an answer that 
evening. 

Q. If you did give him an answ r er, you did not give him an 
answer at that time, did you ? A. I wrote "In case you pur- 
chase " that evening; he got it the next day. 

Q. I am asking about your remembrance of that conversa- 
tion, when this offer w 7 as made, and that you decliDed after- 
wards in that letter ; and ask you whether you positively de- 
clined the offer at that time ? A. I declined to sign it. 

Q. My question is, did you decline the offer definitely and 
positively at that time ? A. I decliuecl to sign the paper ; that 
is all I can remember now of the occasion. 

Q. You say you didn't get the impression that he had 
bought the paper, do you not ? A. I didn't get the impression 
that he had bought the paper, no. 

Q. Did you get any impression that he was just about to 
buy it ? A. My impression was that he thought of buying it. 

Q. Didn't you get any definite impression from a man who 
presented a paper for you to sign, all drawn up with an uncon- 
ditional offer of a salary of $2,000 a year as editor? A. I 
would in some cases, but, as I say, I had met Mr. Hallock on 
the street a half a dozen or perhaps a dozen times, I don't re- 
member now, and there seemed to be no consummation in the 
matter, and I had made up my mind he would not purchase 
the paper. 

Q. Had he ever before presented a paper all drawn up 
ready for your signature ? A. I don't know as he had, and I 
don't know as he had not. 

Q. Do you ever remember of his doiug so at any other 
time? A. I don't recollect now. 

Q. Mr. Hallock is a man of ordinary shrewdness, isn't he? 
A. I cannot pass a judgment on Mr. Hallock. 

Q. Did you get an impression that Mr. Hallock was only 
thinking of buying the Christian at Work when he presents to 
you a paper in which he binds himself to pay you $2,000 a 



635 



year to edit a paper, he not knowing whether he would have 
any paper for you to edit or not ? A. The paper made no 
very serious impression upon my mind ; it seemed to me more 
like an offer made in a hypothetical ease, which men often do ; 
they s-iy, " If I do so and so, will you do so and so?" 

Q. I will read the agreement : " Id consideration of the fact 
that J. N. Hallock is intending to clear the Christian at Work 
entirely from debt, and put it upon a healthy, cash-paying 
basis, I do hereby promise and agree with him, in considera- 
tion furthermore of the sum of $2,000 to be paid by him to 
me, in equal monthly installments, to continue the use of my 
sermons, and also my services as editor, exclusively on the 
-Christian at Work, for one year from date ;" is there anything 
in that about " In case he should purchase the paper ?" A. I 
think, from the very wording of it, he implies that it is only a 
possibility that he may buy it. 

Q. It says: "In consideration of the fact that J.N. Hal- 
lock is intending to clear the Christian at Work entirely from 
debt ?" A. That is the idea—" intending ;" he told me at 
different times when we met, for a year before, that he in- 
tended to buy the paper ; then he said he thought he would 
buy it, and then afterwards that he was seriously thinking of 
buying it. 

Q. In this paper he binds himself to pay you $2,000 a year ; 
that you saw in this paper, did you not ? A. I did not go into 
a severe analysis of the document ; I suppose I should if I had 
signed it, have examined it more thoroughly. 

Q. You say, in your direct examination : " I may have for- 
gotten some of that interview?" A. I do not remember say- 
ing that, although I have before now forgotten things. 

Q. I will turn to it if you wish to have me do so ? A. I 
make no dispute about it. 

Q. Do you know how many important words of that inter- 
view you may have forgotten? A. No, I could not tell. 

Q. You wrote this letter in which you say : " Mr. Hallock, I 
have considered the offer you made for me to take the editorial 
chair of the Christian at Work, in case you purchase it, and 
have concluded that it is my duty to decline it, and so I accept 
another position ; yours, etc. ;" dated Ociober 9, 1876 ; then it 



636 



was an offer, wasn't it, that he made you — a definite offer ? 
A. I cannot say that it was a definite offer. 

Q. It was an offer of $2,000 a year salary, wasn't it ? A. It 
was entirely hypothetical ; he said that he intended 

Q. (Interrupting.) If you will read this, you will see that the 
hypothesis is not all in regard to the offer ; it is the considera- 
tion of the fact that he makes you an offer unconditionally. 

Q. You had signed an agreement with the Advance, had you 
not, at this time ? A. I made a memorandum October - , which 
was changed two or three times. 

Q. That memorandum which you signed, and Mr Howard 
signed, in presence of witnesses, held you, didn't it? A. The 
engagement between General Howard and myself was an in- 
formal engagement; the final contract which we made was 
entirely different from any of these others. 

Q. But that memorandum held you, didn't it, morally ? A. 
It was finally destroyed ; it was changed three or four times, 
and then destroyed. 

Q. Please answer my question ; did that memorandum hold 
you to the engagement with the Advance? A. Yes, it held me 
to the engagement for November 14 ; it was an informal under- 
standing at my house. 

Q. Whether informal or not, did it hold you, morally and 
legally, to the engagement with the Advance? A. In this way, 
that if October 4 was Tuesday, I could have changed it any 
day during the week ; because when that memorandum was 
made, it was understood that it was the data from which other 
documents might be made ; I remember on Saturday making 
some memoranda in regard to matters that I should, perhaps, 
want finally presented, in case the engagement was entirely 
closed. 

Q. Were the provisions of that memorandum legally binding 
upon you? A. There are higher obligations than the legal — 
that is, the moral, and General Howard gave me to understand, 
and I gave him to understand, that before the final conclusion 
of our arrangement, I could make any change that I desired. 

Q. So as to break it entirely? A. Change it, not to break 
it ; finally, in December, we took the memorandum with that 
made on the evening of October 4, and destroyed it, and made 
another in Chicago. 



637 



Q. That is not a direct answer to ray question ; I will ask it 
once more, and I would like an answer directly — were the pro- 
visions of that agreement which you signed with General How- 
ard binding upon you ? A. I have answered that as thor- 
oughly as I can answer it. 

Q. Was it binding so far as to necessitate, legally and mor- 
ally, your becoming the editor of the Advance ? A. I had 
made a memorandum to go out of the Christian at Work after 
a while, but when was not definitely stated. 

Q. Is that an answer to my question ? A. As near as I can 
put it; I had made a memorandum by which I had proposed 
to leave the Christian at Work November 14 ; that would have 
given me the superfluous notice of thirty days, if I had felt 
myself bound to do so, even if I had entirely forgotten that I 
had given four months' notice ; if I had left that out of con- 
sideration entirely, and had considered myself bound to give 
the thirty days' notice, you observe that there was abundance 
of time to give the thirty clays' notice. 

Q. At the time, then, that you had this conversation with 
Mr. Hallock at the Astor House, you were bound by the 
agreement to become the editor of the Advance, were you 
not ? A. I decline to answer that now, because I have an- 
swered it at length. 

Q. You have answered it so much at length that I have not 
got a direct answer to the question? A. I have answered it 
two or three times as well as I knew how. 

Mr. Crosby — Is not the witness obliged to answer categor- 
ically ? 

The Moderator — If he can answer categorically ; but there 
are a great many questions that cannot be answered in that 
way. 

Q I ask you whether you cannot answer this question cate- 
gorically, whether when you had this conversation with Mr. 
Hallock at the Astor House you were not then morally bound 
by an agreement with Mr. Howard to become the editor of the 
Advance ? A. Having fully answered the question in other 
forms, I decline to answer it now. 

(The stenographer was here called upon to read the testi- 
mony of Dr. Talmage upon this point.) 



638 



Q. You say, then, that it was understood that you could 
change, but Dot break the contract? A. I avoided using the 
word " break," because in that connection it rather implied 
dishonor. 

Mr. Ckosby — What I want to know from the witness is 
whether at that time he was, according to his own understand- 
ing, morally and legally bound to become the editor of the Ad- 
vance ; that is the question I ask, and I submit whether it can- 
not be answered categorically ? 

The Moderator — If he cannot answer by yes or no he is at 
liberty to decline to answer ; he has the right to answer yes 
or no, but not if such an answer would not convey the truth 
or the impression of the truth. 

Q. Would such an answer not convey the truth or the im- 
pression of the truth ? Answer that question yes or no. A. I 
cannot answer that question any more accurately than I have 
already answered it ; it is all in the same prolonged answer, 
but that is what I mean. 

Q, By these answers that you have given do you mean to 
convey the idea, that you were morally bound to become the 
editor of the Advance, or that you were not ? A. I have given 
you precisely the idea that is involved in my answers. 

Q. You decline to state what that idea was ? A. You can 
have the stenographer read it again. 

Q. I did not ask you that (Question repeated) ? 

The Moderator — If the witness can answer yes or no, let 
him do so. 

Q. Did this original memorandum hold you, and was it 
binding upon you, and were you already under obligations to 
go upon the Advance, as editor ; did that memorandum bind 
you to any such engagement with the Advance ? A. If counsel 
have failed to get my meaning from what I have already 
answered, I cannot help that ; I have explained as well as I 
knew how. 

Q. You refuse to make any further answer ? A. I refuse 
nothing ; I have answered the question. 

Q. I ask you whether you refuse to make any further 
answer ? A. I will make the same answer that I made before. 

Q. I will ask you whether you reluse to make any further 
answer ? A. I do refuse. 



639 



Q. Had you at the time of that interview with Mr. Hallock, 
at the Astor House, written that notice which you sent to Mr. 
Remington about 30 days? A. I wrote that on the 5th of 
October. 

Q. Did you have it in your pocket at that time ? A. No, I 
think it must have been in the post-office, or have arrived 
there ; it must have arrived there before. 

Q. Why did you not decline Mr. Hallock's offer at once on 
the spot ? A.I did not feel in any shape bound to let Mr. 
Hallock know of my intentions at any time, or make any ex- 
planation to him. 

Q. Couldn't you have given him any explanation why you 
had refused his offer ? A. I did not make any explanation to 
him about anything ; he made his offer to me. 

Q. Couldn't you have refused his offer without making any 
explanation ? A. I was entirely free to do as I pleased. 

Q. Can you give any reason why you did not decline at 
once to accept Mr. Hallock's offer ? A. I don't know as I 
can ; I could with deliberation perhaps, recall what was in nry 
mind at the time ; I simply know the fact that I declined to 
sign the paper then. 

Q. You did not decline the offer ? A. I declined to sign 
the paper. 

Q. And afterwards, in the evening you declined that offer, 
and wrote the letter which has been referred to ? A. I wrote 
that letter, I think that evening. 

Q. What had occurred between the interview with Mr. Hal- 
lock, at the Astor House, and your writing that letter, to bring 
you to the decision not to accept his offer ? A. I don't re- 
member now what the circumstances were ; between two and 
four o'clock I heard that the paper had been sold, and I pre- 
pared my valedictory and took it to the Christian at Work 
office. 

Q. Was the reason why you did not absolutely and definitely 
refuse Mr. Hallock's offer founded on anything that occurred 
before you had that interview with him ? A. That I cannot 
recollect now. 

Q. You have testified, in your direct- examination, that you 
may have met Mr. Hallock in the City Hall Park, on October 



64:0 



6, and you say that you met him at different times, and that 
you usually met him with the same salutation ; you would ask 
him if he had bought the paper, and he would answer that he 
was thinking of it ; you also testified, on your direct-examina- 
tion, that at the Astor House Mr. Hallock said that he thought 
he would bny the paper, and had used similar phrases on a 
dozen different occasions, have you not ? A. I don't remem- 
ber whether I did or not. 

Q. Is it true ? A. I met him several times — I should think 
a half a dozen or a dozen times. 

Q. And your usual salutation was, " Have you bought the 
paper ? " A. Frequent salutation — yes. 

Q. Then according to that statement, Mr. Hallock and your, 
self had frequently talked, along about this time, about buying 
the paper or thinking of it ? A. He talked of it so frequently 
that I had made up my mind he never would buy it. 

Q. You did not believe that he was thinking of buying the 
paper, as he said he was ? A. The impression got in my mind 
that he was not going to buy the paper, for the reason that it 
was such a prolonged matter and went on from month to 
month. 

Q. You announced from your pulpit, Sunday, October 15, 
that you found on Monday, October 9, that the paper had 
been surreptitiously sold, didn't you? A. I do not remember 
what I announced ; I remember speaking of it, but I cannot 
recollect a publication I made then (with so many things pass- 
ing through my mind), and I cannot recollect notices that I 
gave from my pulpit thre« years ago. 

Q. Do you not believe that you said the paper had been 
surreptitiously sold ? A. It is very likely that I said so, be- 
cause it was surreptitiously sold. 

Q. You have stated that Mr. Hallock had repeatedly said to 
you that he was thinking of buying the paper ; will you be 
kind enough to tell the Presbytery wherein consisted the fraud- 
ulent and surreptitious nature of the sale of the paper ? A. 
From time to time the idea became fixed in my mind, that he 
was not going to buy it ; at an earlier period I had supposed 
there was some friend back of him, who was ready to buy the 
paper, but I finally came to the belief that there was nothing 
in it. 



641 



Q. Did you believe there was nothing in the paper that he 
presented that you saw ? A. I did ; 1 thought it was only a 
series of events that terminated in nothing, or, which I sup- 
posed would terminate in nothing. 

Q. Wherein consists the fraudulent or surreptitious nature 
of the sale, when the purchaser told you repeatedly that he 
was thinking of buying the paper, and you had urged him re- 
peatedly to buy it, and had indorsed him as a proper man ? 
A. I never urged him, as I remember, but once, to buy it, or 
perhaps twice; once in my interview in Mr. Corwin's house, 
and once in my interview at my own house, when Mr. Rem- 
ington was present. 

Q. There is a letter in evidence, in which you asked to make 
an appointment with Mr. Hallock, at his own office — the office 
of the Liberal Christian ; do you remember that interview ? 
A. I do not remember ; I was at that office once, and saw the 
editor ; I don't know that I met Mr. Hallock there; perhaps I 
did. 

Q. Your " non-committal" letter refers to negotiations be- 
tween Mr. Hallock and Mr. Remington in regard to the pur- 
chase of the paper, aud to a man by the name of Downs ; do 
you know what Mr. Downs" relations were with Mr. Hallock ? 
A. I do not know ; Mr. Downs was a very pleasant gentleman 
who called on me some years ago, when I was living in Quincy 
street, in the outskirts of the city ; he proposed the publica- 
tion of a religious paper, and wanted me to become the editor; 
I think he called twice or three times on the subject. 

Q. You say your usual salute to Mr. Hallock was, " Have 
you bought the paper?" Was that a joke? A. Yes; it got 
to be a joke. 

Q. Was it a joke at first? A. No ; I don't think it was. 

Q. You thought he might buy it ? A. Yes. 

Q. If you expected that he might buy it, how was the sale 
surreptitious ? A. I did not expect him to buy it for the last 
six months ; here and there, at times, I supposed there were 
parties behind him who were able and willing to buy ; but I 
heard from different sources that he was not in a condition to 
buy the paper. 

Q. The letter that you wrote him, after your interview at the 
81 



642 



Astor House, says, " I have considered the offer," etc., " in 
case you purchase it." Can you tell me, more exactly than 
you have told, when that was written ; is there anything by 
which you can tell about what time it was in the evening? A. 
T cannot tell. 

Q. Can you tell wnere it was written ? A. No ; I had three 
or four places where I was apt to lounge on Mondays. 

Q. Did you lounge that Monday evening ? A. For a little 
while ; I was pretty busy ; between six and seven o'clock I 
was pretty busy and lively. 

Q. Can you recollect all the circumstances of that day ; what 
did you do as soon as you had heard the paper was sold ; what 
was your first step ? A. To be very indignant. 

Q. How long did your indignation last so that you could do 
nothing else ? A. I do not remember how long it lasted. 

Q. What was the first thing you did ? A. The first thing I 
did was to write my valedictory ; I think that was the first 
thing. 

Q. Do you remember talking with Mr. Bright about the 
paper, and about making it up for the press, while you and he 
were together, and your saying it was all right? A. No, I do 
not remember it ; I think you ought, in common fairness, to 
allow me to say that I never had any collision with Mr. Bright ; 
I do not w T ant the impression to get out that we had any an- 
tagonism there ; every editor-in-chief and managing editor 
will sometimes come into discussion as to what is proper for 
the paper, and I remember we had an animated discussion 
once in regard to some things that were put into the paper, 
during my summer absence, in regard to the Baptist Chui ch ; 
Mr. Bright's ideas on some points were a little different from 
my own, but it did not amount to anything like a violent dis- 
cussion ; I have got nothing against Mr. Bright. 

Q. After hearing Mr. Bright's testimony in regard to talking 
with you about making up the paper that afternoon, do you 
recollect the circumstance at all ? A. No, I do not ; I do not 
remember now ; Mr. Bright generally left the office, I think, 
about four o'clock in the afternoon ; he lived in Tarrytown. 

Q. You do not remember of telling him, about four o'clock 
that afternoon, that the paper was all right? A. No ; I do not 
remember saying that. 



Q. At what time did you have that interview with Mr. How- 
ard, in regard to which you have testified, and in regard to 
which he testified ? A. I had an interview with him in the 
morning, and then I think I had an interview with him about 
four o'clock, after this affair had occurred ; I was between two 
and four, in the office, and I think it was then that the revela- 
tion was made — between two and four. 

Q. Is that C. H. Howard ? A. There are two General How- 
ards — General O. O. Howard and this General Howard ; one is 
in the army and the other in editorial life ; they were both in 
the war, and were both in active service and both generals ; 
they are brothers. 

Q. Can you tell me what the subject of the conversation on 
the morning of that day with General Howard was? A. No, I 
cannot tell ; he was a newspaper man, and I was a newspaper 
man, an d we would be very a-pt to talk about newspapers. 

Q. You do not remember anything definite about that con- 
versation ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Can you tell what passed between you at that conversa- 
tion in the afternoon, after you had found that paper had been 
sold ? A. I cannot detail the verbiage of it, but it must have 
been my giving him the information that the paper had been 
sold surreptitiously, and that I was out and out right away. 

Q. Did you say anything to General Howard at all about the 
advertisement which was inserted in the same paper in which 
your valedictory was inserted? A. Nothing except a discus- 
sion that we had at different times about exchange advertising; 
1 had an indefinite idea about that ; that is, that all the religious 
papers offer to exchange advertisements — the Advance puts in 
one for the Christian at Work, and the Christian at Work lor 
the Advance, and so forth. 

Q. That was the subject of your conversation that after- 
noon — about this advertisement? A. I don't remember hav- 
ing any conversation about that ; but I remember talking with 
hinr about this exchange advertising. 

Q. You don't remember, that afternoon, after you found the 
paper had been sold, telling him that you were going to leave 
it, or that you had any conversation with him at all about the 
advertisements? A. I judge from what has been read on trial 



644 



that there must have been a communication between us at that 
time. 

Q. Did you tell Mr. Howard, at that time, that you intended 
to insert your valedictory secretly, without the knowledge of the 
proprietors of the paper ? A. I did not insert my valedictory 
secretly. 

Q. Did you insert it without the knowledge of the pro- 
prietors of the paper ? A. I did not consult them ; I never 
consulted them in regard to what I should put in the paper. 

Q. Did you tell Mr. Howard that you intended to put in 
your valedictory without their knowing anything about it ? 
A. I do not remember now what my conversation with him 
was. 

Q. You don't know whether you so informed him or not ? 
A. I cannot swear to it. 

Q. Did General Howard know that, in that valedictory you 
proposed to insert in the Christian at Work, you intended to 
say, or did say, that you were going to the Advance. A. That 
I cannot say; the valedictory w<°s just such a one as I would 
write now, if I were going to write one. 

Q. Did you say that to General Howard ? A. I cannot say 
whether I did or not. 

Q. Do you remember whether you told him what its con- 
tents were ? A. I don't know ; I think very likely I may have 
done so ; the valedictory was written in ten minutes. 

Q. What else did you do that afternoon besides your talk 
with General Howard and the writing of your valedictory ? A. 
I don't remember now. 

Q. You stated that about 7 o'clock you went into the press- 
room ? A. Between 6 and 7. 

Q. And asked to have your valedictory put in ; Mr. W T augh, 
in his testimony, says it was between 6 and 7 o'clock ; are you 
sure you went to the press-room ? A. No ; not to the press- 
room, to the compositors' room. 

Q. The press was in a different building ? A. Yes , the 
paper was printed in some other street, I believe. 

Q. When you took the valedictory to the composing room; 
about 7 o'clock, hadn't the paper, as you and Mr. Bright had 
prepared it in the afternoon, gone to the press-room to be 



645 



struck off? A. I don't know ; I don't think it had ; it may have 
done so. 

Q. Perhaps this fact will remind you that there were some 
copies of the paper, as originally prepared, struck off? A. 
That I didn't know. 

Q. I have one here, I believe ? A. I did not remember that 
fact. 

Q. Did you go to the press-room at all ? A. I don't remem- 
ber whether I went to the press-room at that time or not ; I 
was in the press-room but once during my connection with the 
paper ; I don't think I went at that time, but I may have done 
so. 

Q. Who was the foreman of the composing room and had 
charge of it ? I think Mr. Cobb hsd charge of it at that time, 
but I am not certain of that. 

Q. Did you" not go, in company with Mr. Cobb, who was an 
elder in your church, to the press-room of E. S. Dodge, about 4 
o'clock on the afternoon of the 9th of October, and there make 
an arrangement to have the presses run that night? A. I 
don't remember that ; I remember paying $25 to have the 
facilities for the publication of the valedictory. 

Q. Don't you remember making an arrangement with the 
foreman of E. S. Dodge to have the presses run that night? 
A. I don't know how I made the arrangement, whether by a 
letter or by personal interview ; but I remember the desire I 
had to get my valedictory — my good-bye — before all the 
readers ; I remember, also, being impressed with the cheap- 
ness of the thing. 

Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Cobb that day 
about it ; he was an elder in your church, wasn't he ? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Did you hear Mr. Waugh testify that you were in con- 
ference with Mr. Cobb for a little while in the evening, in the 
composing room ? A. I believe he did. 

Q. Do you remember that conference with Mr. Cobb ? A. 
No ; I was not there more than a minute ; it hardly amounted 
to a conference. 

Q. Was that the only conference you had with Mr. Cobb 
that day ? A. I don't remember now ; I was very apt to see 
him a dozen times. 



646 



Q. You cannot recollect going in his company to the press- 
room of E. S. Dodge & Co., for the purpose of making arrange- 
ments to run the presses that night ? A. No ; I cannot recol- 
lect ; I know I was in the press-room but once during the time 
that I was on the paper. 

Q. Please state when you mailed the letter post marked 
October 9th? A. That I don't know; I suppose I wrote it 
that afternoon or evening. 

Q. Which afternoon or evening ? A. Of the 9th. 

Q. The letter that was sent to Mr. Remington, I mean? A. 
I wrote it on the 5th. 

Q. When did you post it ? A. I don't know ; I heard what 
Mr. Remington stated in regard to the late arrival of that 
paper ; it did not surprise me at all, for the reason that very 
often I sent my letters to New York, sometimes by boy and 
sometimes by iriends who were going over ; sometimes I carry 
them myself in my pocket. 

Q. There is a little discrepancy in regard to the date, as to 
whether it is the 5th or 6th ; you have referred to it several 
times, and it has been referred to as the 6th ? A. You mean 
th* 8th or 9th. 

Q. I mean as to the date of the letter dated October 5th ; in 
your remarks from the pulpit you refer to it as October 6th; 
I suppose that was a slip, was it not ? A. I cannot say. 

Q. I want to get at when the letter was written ; it is dated 
the 5th ; I should like to know what day it was written — 
whether it was written on Friday, the 6th, or on Thursday, the 
5th, if you can recollect ? A. I write a great many letters 
that I do not put any date on at all ; but when I do put a 
date on, it is very apt to be right ; but my confidence in my 
accuracy in that respect is a little shaken, from the fact that 
my valedictory was dated on Sunday, and I know I did not 
write it on Sunday, but that I wrote it on Monday. 

Q. That was a typographical error, was it not ? A. It 
might have been a typographical error, and it might have 
been a mistake in regard to what the day of the month really 
was. 

Q. Perhaps, if you can recall where you wrote the letter 
you can tell the date of it ? A. I generally write that kind of 



647 



a letter in Brooklyn, at home; but I cannot say now ; I must 
say that I have no remembrance of ever having written it until 
it came here on trial. 

Q. It was dated, Brooklyn, October 5th ; you don't recol- 
lect anything of that at all ? A. I never remember to have 
written anything of the kind at all ; but it is in my hand- 
writing. 

Q. You testified that you had absolute control of the edi- 
torial columns, did you not ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you then have the right to put in whatever you 
pleased, without reference to the wishes or the interests of the 
proprietors ? A. Now, you come to a question of ethics that it 
is hardly necessary to discuss ; I simply state this fact, that I 
never put in anything in the paper that I thought would do 
any damage. 

Q. Was the agreement that you should have entire and 
absolute control of the editorial columns ? A. Yes ; it was. 

Q. "When was that agreement made? A. It was a tacit 
agreement ; 1 don't know as it was written ; but it was a con- 
versational understanding, as expressed by experts, and it was 
the understanding which every newspaper man has, that the 
editor-in-chief has entire control of the reading matter of the 
paper. 

Q. Unless there is something specified to the contrary in 
the agreement ? A. Well, I suppose a man might make such 
an agreement. 

Q. Did you enter into any agreement with the Christian at 
Work Publishing Company? A. Yes ; I had an agreement 
with them in 1873 ; then we had that conversational agree- 
ment ; but I don't think I ever discussed with any man con- 
nected with the paper the prerogatives of the editor-in-chief ; 
that matter I considered settled for all time to come. 

Q. Did this agreement of 1873 give you absolute control 
over the columns of the paper ? A. I don't know; I have not 
read it in a good w T hile ; in what was called the reorganization 
of the company, a year or two later, there was nothing written. 

Q. But a new agreement was made ? A. It was a conversa- 
tional agreement ; there were never any documents, which I 
have seen, at any rate ; I have not any. 



648 



Mr. Crosby — I would like to put in evidence that agreement. 
It was referred to in the beginning of the direct-examination of 
Dr. T aim age. 

Witness — That document was nothing ; it was done away 
with when we began the reorganization. 

Q. Was it formally done away with ? A. It was done away' 
with, unless I am still editor ; it was for fifteen years that I 
was engaged. 

Q. I will read it. (Reads agreement dated 15th day of Au- 
gust, 1873.) A. That w r as my original agreement with Mr. 
Adams, who was publisher then ; he passed out of the estab- 
lishment, and was no more connected with it ; then, about a 
a } r ear and a-half after, there was reorganizaton, with new 
officers, and there w r as an entire change, and then there was 
no documents. 

Q. You have testified that the reas on why you put your 
valedictory in that night was, that it was the only oppor- 
tunity you had to get it in, because of Mr. Remington's feel- 
ing against you, haven't you ? A. Yes ; I knew that that was 
my only opportunity, as it subsequently proved, from the fact 
that the whole edition of the paper was suppressed ; that 
proved that I was right in my supposition. 

Q. Then you knew that Mr. Remington would have pre- 
vented it going in, if he had known it ? A. I did know it. 

Q. Had he the right to control the editorial columns ? A. 
No ; but he so interfered with the different departments of the 
paper, that I knew he would with a high hand do anything he 
wanted to ; I knew it by the fact that he would break his en- 
gagement with his publisher, whom he had taken from a 
lucrative position, at the end of three months, and would make 
it uncomfortable and unpleasant for him, and drop him out at 
any time he felt like doing so. 

Q. Did he take him from a lucrative position, and drop him 
out at the end of three months ? A. He practically dropped 
him out at the end of three months ; at the end of six months 
he discharged him ; but for the last three months there was 
nothing in the office that was at all pleasant. 

Q. In spite of your letters to the contrary, you have testi- 
fied that there was no necessity for your giving notice to Mr, 



649 



Remington before you retired, because he had gone out ; that 
it was as absurd to give notice to the Czar of Russia as to Mr. 
Remington, and he had nothing whatever to do with the paper 
on that Monday ; haven't you testified to that effect ? A. 
Yes. 

Q. You put in that editorial at night, and concealed it from 
Mr. Remington ; yet you would not give notice to Mr. Rem- 
ington because he had gone out ; can you explain the inconsis- 
tency of those two statements? A. I will leave that to the 
court, letting them take the facts ; I do not see anything that 
needs explanation. 

Pending the examination of Dr. Talmage, Presbytery ad- 
journed. 

J. M. GREENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



April 23d, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 23d, at 2 J p. m. 

The Rev. Dr. Talmage was recalled and testified as follows : 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. I wish to call your attention to this letter dated October 
9th, 1876. 

(Letter read by Mr. Crosby). 

I wish to know if you did consider the offer you had made 
him, after he had presented it to you ? A. It is as I stated ; 
I considered. 

Q. And you say, " I have concluded that it is my duty to 
decline it " as a matter of fact ; had you not concluded that it 
was your duty to decline it as soon as it was made without 
any further consideration ? A. I could not conclude to decline 
it until it had been presented. 

Q. Well, sir, as soon as it was presented, did you conclude 
to decline it ? A. I don't remember the action of my mind at 
that time. 

Q. Well, sir, you have testified that you made an arrange- 
ment with the editor of the Advance, and that you had written 
and given thirty days' notice, and announced your withdrawal 
from the Christian at Work at the time when the offer was 
made ; now, sir, can yox\ recall whether as soon as it was made 
82 



650 



you decided to decline it ? A. I cannot recall the action of my 
mind at that time. 

Q. And you say, " and so I accept another position ;" had 
you not already accepted another position before this offer 
was made? A. I was (not) in consultation with General 
Howard ; a memorandum had been made, but the finality of 
our arrangement had not been reached, and a change might be 
made at any time. 

Q. Had you accepted the position that General Howard 
offered you? A. There were consultations about it, but it was 
not entirely completed, as I have stated. 

Q. I don't wish to seem to press questions that have no ' 
meaning, but I simply ask you for the fact, whether you had 
accepted General Howard's offer, definitely and distinctly ? 
A. I expected to go to the Advance. 

Q. Why did you not inform Mr. Hallock at that interview^ 
that you expected to go there ? A. Now you come to private 
business matters of my own. 

Q. I will now call your attention to the interviews in 1877, 
with Mr. Hallock, and the two notes which are already in evi- 
dence, the first one dated August 24th : 

" Dear Mr. Hallock — Could I see you in the Astor House 
" parlor, upon a matter of business, at twelve, or one, or two 
" o'clock, and if so, which," and the other : 

" Dear Mr. Hallock — If convenient, I would like to have you 
" call at my house after eight o'clock this evening, so that 
"we may conclude the conversation opened last Friday. I have 
" also something additional to say. Please answer, Yours, etc. 
"I would call and see you but I am keeping bachelor's hall at 
" present, and I am obliged to be around the premises." 
I ask you, whether you had an interview with Mr, Hallock at 
his own house, besides these that are referred to, one at the 
Astor House, and one at your house ? A. I think I did see 
him at his house. 

Q. The night before the interview at your house ? A. That 
I cannot say. 

Q. You gave as a reason why you wished to come back to 
the Christian at Work with Mr. Hallock in 1877, when you were 
leaving the Advance, or were about to leave the Advance, that 



the paper opened its columns to all sorts of abuses about you, 
and you wished to make an explanation to the whole country, 
which you thought you could do, if you purchased the paper. 
That was your testimony, wasn't it ? A. The substance of it, 
yes, sir. 

Q. Did you not also swear, that you never chase a lie 

A. (Interrupting.) I have been on hunting expeditions of that 
kind several times, but they have been so unsatisfactory, that 
I don't enjoy it. 

Q. Why then were you so anxious in 1877 to chase lies, that 
you were willing to purchase the paper, and come back with 
Mr. Hallock upon it ? A. The lies were so stupendous, that I 
could shoot them down without any trouble if I only got in 
range of them. 

Q. Did not you have three distinct interviews with Mr. Hal- 
lock in 1877 in regard to reviving your connection with the 
Christian at Work as editor ? A. I had two or three. 

Q. Didn't Mr. Hallock, at the first interview, say positively 
that he would not sell the paper ? A. I have forgotten what 
the result of that conversation was ; I know we talked it over. 

Q. Were not the other interviews — the two following — solely 
in regard to your becoming editor, with Mr. Hallock as owner 
and publisher ? A. I don't remember ; the only conversation 
I remember is the impression upon my mind, that I felt that 
that paper had most infamously treated me, and I should then 
have liked to have an opportunity of correcting the falsehoods 
that were put forth so constantly and systematically for weeks 
after my departure from it. 

Q. Did you not intimate at the interview of August 31st, 
that if Mr. Hallock would consent to the arrangement that 
you should come back, you would charge nothing for your ser- 
vices for the first year? A. I don't remember any such con- 
versation. 

Q. In this letter to which I have called your attention, you 
say, " I have also something additional to say do you re- 
member what that something additional was? A. No, I don't. 

Q. Did you not tell Mr. Hallock that in addition to serving 
him the first year without charge as editor, you would also 
serve the second year for merely a nominal salary, and that 



652 



you would agree to put it in writing ? A. I don't remember 
such a conversation ; I wish to state at this point, that yester- 
day and the day previous in my testimony, as to-day, I fre- 
quently make answer, " I don't remember ;" I wish to say to 
this court that when I say I don't remember, it is because 1 
don't remember, not because I wish to dodge any question ; 
the style of life that I have been living is so busy that it is im- 
possible for me to remember details of conversation or busi- 
ness engagements ; during these three years my labor has been 
extended ; I have been a preacher in my church, the President 
of the Lay College, an editor and lecturer, and almost every 
night in the round year (except Saturday nights) if I have not 
been preaching somewhere I have been busy ; it is absolutely 
impossible for me to remember details ; I wish to make this 
explanation, at this point, to the Presbytery, to show them 
that when I say I don't remember, it is because I don't re- 
member. 

Mr. Crosby — I accept that statement very fully. I want 
also to make a personal statement myself, anditis simply this: 
when Dr. Talmage has answered I don't remember, and I 
press the question and put it in different forms, it has been 
with the object of trying to refresh his memory, and in the 
hope that the different forms of putting the question might 
suggest something to his mind. 

The Witness — I would say in regard to all of those letters, 
that I have no remembrance of ever writing them. Of the 
twenty or so letters which have been put in evidence, I have 
no remembrance of ever having written them at all. They had 
passed completely out of my mind, so that it is a very difficult 
thing for me to explain all the circumstances. 

Q. You then state positively that you remember nothing 
about offering your services to Mr. Hallock one year for noth- 
ing, or anything of that kind ? A. I don't remember any such 
conversation. 

Q. Did you not seek in those interviews to become connect- 
ed with Mr. Hallock on the Christian at Work ? A. My chief 
idea was to purchase the paper and make corrections of the 
misrepresentations which had been made in regard to me. 

Q. That is not an answer to the question ; did you not seek 



653 



in those interview?, or either of them, (whether they were at 
your house or elsewhere) to be connected with Mr. Hallock on 
the Christian at Work ? A. I will make no farther answer 
than I have done ; I have answered that question twice. 

Q. Then, if you decline to answer farther, we will leave it 
where it is ; you have just testified, as you did before, that 
your chief object was that you might have an opportunity of 
correcting the slanders which had gone forth week after week 
in this paper ; was not Mr. Hallock responsible for these slan- 
ders, as you call them, so far as you know? A. I don't take 
the responsibility of fastening slanders anywhere. 

Q. Didn't Mr. Hallock publish in that paper a statement 
which you, in your endorsement of Mr. Corwin's open letter 
declared to be false in part and false in all? A. How much 
Mr. Hallock had to do with the publication of those things I 
don't Jmow. 

Q. Did you not know that Mr. Hallock had published a 
statement which you afterwards declared to be false in part, 
and false in all ? A. Mr. Corwin read to me a document, which 
he said Mr. Hallock had written, then I immediately wrote my 
name after Mr. Corwin's in refutation of the slanders. 

Q, Had Mr. Hallock ever retracted that statement to you? 
A. I don't know whether he had or not. 

Q. Did Mr. Hallock ever intimate to you that his statement 
in regard to you was false ? A. I don't remember. 

Q. On what ground of agreement could you two men come 
together for the purpose of correcting a slander which he had 
put forth, and never retracted, and which you had declared to 
be false in part, and false in all ? A. You are putting some- 
thing up only for the purpose of knocking it down again. 

Q. I would like to have an answer to my question ; you 
have testified to facts upon which my question is based ? A. 
I have answered that so often that if you don't understand me 
now, you never will. 

Q. It is not simply my understanding, it is for the under- 
standing of the court that I ask these questions ; you have 
testified that you sought to become an editor in connection 
with Mr. Hallock as owner of that paper ? A. That is a case 
of deceit and falsehood on your part. 



654 

Q. It is evident, that in the spring of 1876, you were de- 
sirous that Mr. Hallock should purchase the Christian at Work, 
and you brought Mr. Hallock and Mr. Remington together at 
your house, with that object in view ; is not that true ? A- 
Please repeat the question. 

Q. (Question repeated.) A. I don't remember the circum- 
stances of calling them together ; I know that the question had 
come to be about the cessation of the publication of the 
paper, and any one who would have purchased the paper at 
that time would have been welcome to have it. 

Q. Did you not inform Mr. Remington at that time that you 
desired Mr. Hallock to purchase the paper ? A. I had an 
interview with Mr. Remington in regard to Mr. Hallock, and 
immediately after or very soon after I know Mr. Remington 
rather expressed himself dissatisfied with the idea of getting 
Mr. Hallock ; he said his business standing was not good, that 
he was a Unitarian, and he did not seem to be very much in 
favor of Mr. Hallock generally. 

Q. Did you deny to Mr. Remington, that Mr. Hallock was a 
Unitarian? A. I don't remember what I did. 

Q. Did you not, on any occasion, beside the meeting at your 
house, intimate to Mr. Remington that you desired Mr. Hal- 
lock to become the owner and publisher of the paper ? A. 
I don't remember. 

Q. Did you ever intimate to Mr. Remington that your mind 
had changed in regard to Mr. Hallock, and that you wouldn't 
like to edit a paper with him as the owner ? A. I don't re- 
member. 

Q. You had given Mr. Hallock to understand, had you not* 
that it would be agreeable to you to become associated with 
him on the paper? A. Mr. Hallock came down to my place 
at East Hampton, and said a good deal in regard to his qual- 
ifications as a publisher ; he was an entire stranger to me, and 
came, as I recollect, without any letter of introduction ; I was 
rather pleased with him at the time, and after some conversa- 
tion, I think I gave him a letter of introduction to Mr. Rem- 
ington. 

Q. Had you known Mr. Hallock for some time? A. I think 
the first I ever saw him was at my house in East Hampton. 



655 



Q. Are you sure ? A. I am not certain, but I think that is 
the first time I ever saw him. 

Q. You are mistaken ; your letter from East Hampton, re- 
ferring to Mr. Hallock, says, " I have known him for a long 
time ? " A. Then I think he was twice at my house in East 
Hampton, but I am not certain. 

Q. You hadn't known him before you saw him at East 
Hampton? A. I cannot remember when my acquaintance 
with him began. 

Q. Had you given Mr. Hallock to understand that it would 
be agreeable to you to be associated with him on the paper, 
in the spring of 1876 ? A. I don't know, I don't remember 
any conversation of that kind ; I had several conversations with 
him, I could not specify the particular time in 1874, 1875, or 
1876. 

Q. Didn't you ever give him an intimation that it would be 
agreeable to you, to have him own the paper, and you edit it ? 
A. We had pleasant conversations in regard to the matter, but 
what I said I don't remember. 

Q. Did you ever intimate to Mr. Hallock that you had 
changed your mind ? I don't know whether I did or not. 

Q. Didn't you give both of these men reason to believe that 
the transfer of the paper from one to the other would be pleas- 
ant to you? A. I don't remember ; I know that Mr. Hallock 
was very anxious to become the publisher when he came to 
me ; we had no publisher at the time, and I was desirous that 
we have a publisher. 

Q. I ask you once more this question ; you have not an- 
swered it yet ; had you not given both of the men, Mr. Hal- 
lock and Mr. Remington, reason to believe that the transfer of 
the paper from one to the other would be pleasant to you ? 
A. I don't know how many conversations I had in regard 
to it. 

Q. Will you please answer my question ; had you ever given 
them that impression ? A. I don't remember what conversa- 
tions I had. 

Q. Did you ever intend to give the impression to these two 
men, Mr. Hallock and Mr. Remington, that the transfer of the 
paper from one to the other, would be pleasant to you ? A. I 



656 



remember in a conversation in Mr. Corwin's house, talking 
with Mr. Hallock in regard to it, and it seemed then as if our 
last number of the Christian at Work had been issued ; we had 
been under the nightmare of the proposed stoppage of the 
paper, and I would have been glad to have had Mr. Hallock 
take it or anybody else. 

Q. Did you on other occasions when meeting Mr. Hallock, 
give him the impression, or intend to give him the impression, 
that you would like to have him take the paper ? A. I don't 
remember now. 

Q. Did you ever give the impression, or intend to give the 
impression, to Mr. Remington, that you would be pleased to 
have Mr. Hallock purchase the paper ? A. I don't remember 
now any of the conversations on that subject with Mr. Kem- 
ington, except I remember once a conversation in which Mr. 
Remington spoke prejudicially of Mr. Hallock, after I had 
given him that letter of introduction. 

Q. You state positively that you don't remember that you 
ever intended to give the impression to Mr. Remington that 
you would like to have Mr. Hallock purchase the paper ? A. 
I would have been glad to have anybody publish it at that 
crisis, to get out of the doldrums. 

Q. That is not my question ; I ask you whether you remem- 
ber intending to give the impression to Mr. Remington that 
it would please you if Mr. Hallock bought the paper ? A. I 
don't remember now ; I don't remember all the conversations. 

Q. You decline to answer whether you remember having 
ever given that impression, or intending to do so? A. I don't 
decline to answer, for the reason that I don't remember. 

Q. You don't remember whether you ever intended to give 
him that impression ? I can't submit to this ; I wish you would 
stop this nagging. 

Mr. Ceosby — There is no intention of nagging the witness. 
Q. Did you not, at the meeting at your house, when Mr. 
Remington and Mr. Hallock and yourself met there, at that 
interview, intend to give the impression to Mr. Remington 
that it would please you if Mr. Hallock bought the paper? A. 
I certainly would have been pleased to have anybody buy it- 
Mr. Hallock or any one else — under the stress of anxiety which 
we were laboring in connection with that paper. 



657 



Q. Did you give, or intend to give, Mr. Kemington that im- 
pression, at that time ? A. I can give no further answer to 
that question. 

Q. When you inserted your valedictory, or caused it to be 
inserted, in the Christian at Work, did you not believe that 
the paper had been sold to a gentleman in Philadelphia ? A. 
I did. 

Q. Did you not believe that paper was no longer Mr. Kem- 
ington's ? A. I supposed it had passed out of his hands ; 
whether he retained any stock or not, I don't know ; I don't 
know anything about the minutiae. 

Q. Was it right for you to put in your valedictory, in a 
paper which belonged to a man in Philadelphia ? A. That is 
a question of ethics and law. 

Q. What reason had you to supjDose that that Philadelphia 
gentleman who had bought the paper would not allow you to 
put in a proper valedictory at the expiration of thirty days, or 
before, if you wished ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Did you have any reason ? A. I don't know. 

Q. On Monday morning, October 9th, did you have any idea 
of writing that valedictory when you left home ? A. I don't 
remember now. 

Q. You did remember when you were on your direct-exam- 
ination ? A. I don't certainly remember any idea that I had 
of writing that valedictory ; I wrote it when I got the informa- 
tion upon which it was based ; it was between two and four 
o'clock. 

Q. Did you have any idea of writing a valedictory for that 
issue of the paper before you saw Mr. Hallock at the Astor 
House ? A. I don't remember that I did. 

Q. Do you remember that you did not ? A. I do not remem- 
ber anything about it. 

Q. Did you, at your interview with Gen. Howard, on Mon- 
day morning, October 9th, say anything to him about insert- 
ing your valedictory that evening ? A. I don't think I did. 

Q. You say that your agreement with Gen. Howard was 
not formally consummated until October 9th ; what do you 
mean by formally consummated ? A. I mean all the facts, and 
all the particulars of the arrangements were not complete, 
83 



658 



Q. It was signed before that, was it not ? A. It was signed ; 
yes. 

Q. At what time, on Monday, October 9th, was it formally 
consummated? A I think it was toward evening; I think it 
was formally consummated then. 

Q. Are you sure it was not formally consummated before 
noon ? A. I think it was toward evening. 

Q. You can't remember more certain than that ? A. No. 

Q. When did Gen. Howard first learn that you intended to 
leave the Christian at Work, at that time, instead of waiting 
until the 14th of November ? A. I think toward the evening 
of October 9th. 

(j. Did you tell Gen. Howard of Mr. Hallock's offer ? A. I 
don't remember. 

Q. Do you remember saying anything to Gen. Howard 
about Mr. Hallock at that interview ? A. I don't remember. 

Q. Did you tell Gen. Howard about this Philadelphia gen- 
tleman you supposed had bought the paper ? A. I have for- 
gotten. 

Q. It is in evidence, in Mr. Corwin's testimony, that at that 
interview with Mr. Howard on October 4th, when you signed 
the agreement to become the editor of the Advance, it was un- 
derstood that it was not to have effect until November, in 
order to give thirty days notice to the Christian at Work ; Mr. 
Howard, in his letter, says, " but afterward he stated to this 
" affiant that he had decided to accept the offer, and become 
" the editor of the Advance at once, and write a farewell vale- 
" dictory for the Christian at Work immediately ; " when did 
you state that decision to Gen. Howard — how soon afterward ? 
A. That question is so long that I can't get it through my 
mind. 

Q. I will try and make it shorter ; Gen. Howard in his letter 
says (first speaking of his engagement with you — his pro- 
visional engagement with you): "Dr. Talmage at first sug- 
" gested that the engagement should not begin until Novem- 
" ber 14th, in order that he might give the Christian at Work 
" thirty days' notice ; but he stated to me afterwards, that he 
" had been credibly informed that the Christian at Work was 
" about to be or had already been sold, and that the transfer 



659 



" had been made without consulting or notifying him. He 
" further said to affiant, that he had given notice some months 
" previously that he should leave the Christian at Work in the 
" autumn, and that he decided to accept the offer to become the 
" editor of the Advance, to take effect at once, and write an 
" editorial for the Christian at Work immediately." The ques- 
tion I ask you upon that is, how soon after you suggested 
that the engagement should not begin until November did you 
state to Gen. Howard that you had decided to accept the offer 
at once ? A. It is impossible for me to retain all that question 
in my mind ; I have not the least idea what you are asking 
me. 

Q. I want to know how soon, after you suggested, that the 
engagement should not begin with the Advance until Novem- 
ber 14, that you said to Gen. Howard, that you had decided to 
accept the offer at once? A. I don't remember. 

Q. Did you state to Gen. Howard, before Monday, October 
9, that you wished your engagement to begin then with the 
Advance ? A. Our memorandum of October 4, was in reference 
to beginning on November 14. 

Q. Did you, before Monday afternoon, October 9, suggest to 
Gen. Howard that you would like to begin your engagement 
with the Advance at once, instead of waiting until November ? 
A. I have forgotten. 

Q. Did you intimate to Gen. Howard, at either of your in- 
terviews with him, that you would like to be released from the 
agreement you had made to become the editor of the Ad- 
vance ? A. I don't remember ; we had conversations for some 
weeks ; I think there was a letter written to me perhaps a 
month or so before, and there was some general discussion 
on the subject. 

Q. Did you on that Monday, October 9, at either of these 
two interviews, and after you had signed the agreement with 
Gen. Howard, on October 4, intimate to him, that you would 
like to be released from the agreement you had made, to be- 
come the editor of the Advance ? A. After October 4 ? 

Q. Yes; after October 4? A. I didn't have any conversa- 
tion of that kind. 

Q. Did you, on Monday, October 9, in the morning or after- 



660 



noon, express any desire to Gen. Howard to give up the plan 
of going on the Advance, and remain on the Christian at 
Work? A. I don't remember. 

Q. Is it possible that you did so ? A. I don't understand. 

Q. (Question repeated.) A. I don't remember, so many 
things have passed through my mind since then ; if you had 
lived as busy a life as 1 have, I don't think you could have 
carried all these things. 

Q. I call your attention to this question, for if you didn't 
express the desire, you certainly remember the fact of what 
was in your mind? A. Excuse me for not answering further 
than I have ; I have answered two or three times as well as I 
can. 

Q. Do you remember that you didn't, on Monday, October 
9, express any desire to Gen. Howard, to give up the plan of 
going on the Advance ? A. I don't remember any such thing 
as that. 

Q. When did you first inform your associates on the Chris- 
tian at Work that you were negotiating with the proprietors 
of the Advance ? A. I don't remember. 

Q. Did you inform any of your associates of the Christian 
at Work that you were negotiating with the proprietors of 
the Advance! A. No ; I don't think I did. 

Q. You closed your valedictory by saving, " This world never 
" seemed so bright, or heaven so glorious as this afternoon ;" 
did the information you had received about the sale of the 
paper produce this joyful feeling on your part ? A. No ; it 
was the prospect of getting out of purgatory. 

Q. How were you getting out of purgatory ? A. By getting 
oat of the Christian at Work. 

Q. The Christian at Work was purgatory ? A. That is what 
you say. 

Q. That is what you say ? A. No ; you say it. 

Q. What particular fact was in your mind on the morning 
of October 9th, that caused the special depression of spirits of 
which you have testified, and which led you to think you were 
hounded ; you have testified at some length in regard to your 
feelings that morning? A. I didn't testify to any depression 
of feeling ; I said I was hounded, and I am now. 



661 



Q. What specific fact led you to think you were hounded ; 
why did you think so then ? A. I had about the same demon- 
strations. 

Q. By whom? A. I don't care now to become personal. 

Q. In what particular way were you being hounded on that 
morning ? A. I saw the same spirit which has been shown on 
this trial — the same kind of animus that would bring a man 
two hundred miles without any compulsion, to be a witness 
against me, and to hang around the church court week after 
week. 

Q. I repeat the question, in what particular way did you 
think you were being hounded on the morning of the 9th of 
October? A. There had been an intention which was becom- 
ing more and more evident, to drop me from the paper, to my 
injury and disgrace, and that evidence was all the time accu- 
mulating ; the particular facts of it it would be difficult for me 
now to recall. 

Q. Had you heard at that time, on the morning of October 
9th, that Mr. Remington was negotiating with a gentleman in 
Philadelphia? A. I don't remember; I knew in the afternoon 
he had sold the paper, and I supposed he had sold it to a gen- 
tleman in Philadelphia ; from whom I got the opinion that he 
was attempting to make a sale in Philadelphia, I don't know ; 
I didn't get it from him, certainly, who was the chief stock- 
holder. 

Q. In your direct examination, considerable stress was laid 
upon the fact, that after leaving your house on Monday morn- 
ing you returned to the fourth story for special prayer and aid, 
and that alter asking Divine protection, you felt that it was 
impossible for you to make a mistake ; what particular action 
were you contemplating that morning, in which you thought 
you might make a mistake ? A. I was not expecting any par- 
ticular action upon my own part, but Monday was generally a 
day in which I observed more especially the maneuvers of my 
enemies, as that was the day in which I was in New York, 
and in the office a great deal — other days not so much. 

Q. I call your attention to the testimony ; you say, " I sup- 
pose the paper was sold to a gentleman in Philadelphia, with 
whom Mr. Remington had been in conference ;" who w T as that 
gentleman ? A. I refuse to give his name. 



662 



Q. Can you tell when, and from whom you learned that Mr. 
Remington had been negotiating with that gentleman ? A. I 
don't remember who told me, but I have heard since from the 
gentleman himself that he was in conference with, and that he 
was putting these two men against each other — 'Mr. Hallock 
and this Philadelphia gentleman. 

Q. Can you tell when you learned that ; was it a week be- 
fore Monday, October 9th? A. I can't tell. 

Q. Do you know how long before that Monday it was that 
Mr. Remington had been in conference with this gentleman ? 
A. I did then know ; I knew the particulars of the negotiation, 
but I can't recall them now. 

Q. Did you say anything to Mr. Hallock about this Phila- 
delphia gentleman when you saw him at the Astor House on 
Monday, when he told you that he thought of buying the 
paper, and wanted you to sign an agreement to remain on the 
paper ? A. I don't remember anything about that. 
' Q. You don't remember that you did tell him ? A. I don't 
remember anything about it. 

Q. You testified on Friday last that you had no idea of Mr. 
Hallock having purchased the paper until in the interview with 
him at your house on Wednesday or perhaps Tuesday night ; 
will you please state, as near as you can remember, what he 
said in communicating to you the fact that he had purchased 
the paper ; can you remember at all what he said ? A. No, I 
cannot. 

Q. Did you express surprise at his having purchased the 
paper ? A. I have forgotten. 

Q.. Did you tell him at all up to that time you had supposed 
the paper had been sold to a gentleman in Philadelphia? A. 
I don't remember. 

Q. Was anything said between you and Mr. Hallock about 
this Philadelphia gentleman ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Were you not surprised at learning that you had been 
mistaken in regard to the purchaser of the paper? A. I have 
forgotten how I felt about that time. 

Q. Having testified that you had no idea of Mr. Hallock's 
having purchased the paper until at the interview with him at 
your house on Wednesday night ? A. [Interrupting.] I said 
Tuesday or Wednesday. 



663 



Q. Having testified that you had no idea of Mr. Hallock's 
having purchased the paper until in the interview with him at 
your house on Tuesday or Wednesday night, will you state 
whether or no you made this announcement to your congrega- 
tion on Sunday, the 15th of October, which appears in the 
Advance of October the 19th : " This is no sudden change ; my 
final resignation was made October 6th, when I wrote that I 
should cease relations with the Christian at Work within a 
month of that date, but last Monday I found that the Christian 
at Work had been surreptitiously, and without my knowledge, 
sold to the publisher of a Unitarian paper, with the impression 
on the part of the purchaser that 1 would go with it." Did you 
make that announcement in your pulpit ? A. As I said be- 
fore, I do not remember to have made that announcement ; I 
may have made that announcsment, but I cannot be responsi- 
ble as to what the verbiage was exactly. 

Q. Is that verbiage true ? A. When I spoke of Mr. Hal- 
lock as being a Unitarian publisher, I simply mentioned the 
fact as I w T ould in regard to any man who was a Baptist pub- 
lisher, or a Methodist publisher, or a Presbyterian publisher. 

Q. Your answer to my question then is that you don't know 
whether you made that statement from the pulpit or not — the 
statement which is published in the Advanced A. I don't 
remember it now. 

Q. Did you state from your pulpit that you found on Mon- 
day that the paper had been sold to the publisher of a Unitar- 
ian paper ? A. I don't remember the statement about the 
publisher ; I don't remember making any statement ; I prob- 
ably did, but I have no kind of remembrance of the pub'ica- 
tions I make ; I make about ten or fifteen every religious 
service, and none of them make any very serious impression 
upon my mind; not expecting to be brought into critic sm 
for my publications, I do not put any special mental effort on 
them. 

Q. In making that announcement from the pulpit, did you 
not intend to give your reasons for withdrawing from the 
Christian at Work ? A. I don't remember making any an- 
nouncement in regard to it at all ; at the same time I don t 
deny that I did make the announcement. 



66± 

Q. Can you account for the fact that your letter of October 
5th was not mailed until after you had inserted your vale- 
dictory ? Do you know when it was mailed ? A. I wrote it 
on October 5th ; whether I wrote it in New York or Brooklyn 
or not I don't know. 

Q. It is dated Brooklyn ? A. I don't remember anything 
about that ; I had various ways of sending my letters to the 
Post Office ; sometimes by boy — a messenger boy that went 
over every morning — sometimes by friends who happened in> 
and by whom I would send a package of letters. 

Q. It was received at the New York Post Office at 12 o'clock 
at night October 9th. Can you at all account for that fact ? 
A. I don't know ; it may have been a fault in the delivery of 
the letter ; there may have been some point at which the letter 
was delayed. 

Q. I ask you whether you can account for the delay in mail- 
ing the letter? A. No, I don't know; I gave thirty days' 
notice ; you observe that even if that letter did not get to Mr. 
Pvemington before the 9th, I would still have had abundance 
of opportunity of giving the thirty days' notice, because I did 
not intend to go out until November 14th, so he has several 
days' notice any way ; the delay of that letter in reaching the 
Post Office is, therefore, a comparatively trifling matter, be- 
cause if it had not reached him before the 9th, he would have 
had more than thirty days' notice. 

Q. In designating the purchaser of the paper as the pub- 
lisher of a Unitarian paper, did you intend to convey the idea 
that you were averse to remaining with Mr. Hallock on that 
account ? A. When I made the remark about the Unitarian 
paper I did not intend to say anything against Unitarians, for 
the reason that some of the very best friends I have in the 
world are Unitarians ; I simply spoke of his being the pub- 
lisher of a Unitarian paper in the same way as I would speak 
of a Methodist or a Baptist publisher, or a Presbyterian pub- 
lisher — a man who published those papers. 

Q. Did you ever state that you did not desire to remain with 
Mr. Hallock because he was the publisher of a Unitarian pa- 
per? A. I don't remember now. I am under the impression 
that I did say it was sold to a Unitarian paper at some time, 



665 



whether I said that in a letter or from the pulpit I cannot now 
state. 

Q. Was it not a fact that Mr. Hallock was not the publisher 
of a Unitarian paper at that time ? A. I have always sup- 
posed that he was the publisher of a Unitarian paper; he told 
me he was. 

Q. At that time ? A. No, but he told me before in conversa- 
tions with him, and then he was known throughout New York 
as being the publisher of a Unitarian paper. 

Q. Wasn't it a fact that he had ceased to be the publisher of 
the Liberal Christian and bad taken his name as publisher from 
the paper more than a year previous ? A. I never heard of 
that. 

Q. Had he not told you a good while before that he was 
about to sever his connection with that paper? A. I don't 
remember. 

Q. Had he not told you that he intended leaving the Liberal 
Christian ? A. I have forgotten. 

A. Had he toid you that he did not believe in it ? A. I got 
the general impression from him that the paper did not pay 
financially. 

Q. Did you not yourself say that he was connected with the 
Liberal Christian merely as a business man and that he was 
himself an evangelical man ? A. I don't remember, I maj have 
said that or something like that. 

Q. Did you believe at the time that you made that an- 
nouncement that Mr. Hallock was then the publisher of a 
Unitarian paper ? A. I did, and I think so now. 

Q. You say the purchaser had the impression that you were 
to go with the paper; from whom and when did you learn that 
Mr. Hallock had such an impression? A. I have said three or 
four times that I do n ot know whether I made that publica- 
tion. 

Q. If you did, and you have not denied it, but have said that 
very likely you did make it, do you know how Mr. Hallock got 
the impression that you were to go with him? A. No, I do 
not. 

Q. You don't know where Mr. Hallock got that impression ? 
A. No. 

84 



666 



Q. Did you ever give him the impression that you would go 
with him ? A. I don't remember. 

Q. As to the advertisement you say: "I did not originate the 
idea of the advertisement ; I did not take it to the Christian 
at Work, I didn't order it inserted, I never knew its contents 
until I saw it and read it in the opening of this ecclesiastical 
trial." Do you know who did prepare that advertisement? A. 
I think General Howard did. I think he says so in his af- 
fidavit. 

Q. Can you remember to whom and when you first made 
known the fact that you were going to sever your connection 
with the Christian at Work on the 9th of October. A. No, I 
do not remember. 

Q. Do you remember speaking to anybody in reference to it 
before you spoke to General Howard ? A. I have forgott n. 

Q. Do you remember to whom and when vou first com- 
municated the contents of your " good bye" editorial? A. No, 
I don't remember. 

Q. Did you communicate the contents of your valedictory to 
the person who prepared the advertisement, whoever it was? 
A. I told you distinctly that I do not remember communicat- 
ing it to anybody ; now, you ask the question which implies 
that I was a fool when I answered the other. 

Q. It may refresh your memory ; can you explain in any way 
how the person who prepares the advertisement obtained the 
information which enabled him to commence it in this wise : 
" Upon another page Eev. T. DeWitt Talmage publishes his 
valedictory to the readers of the Christian at Work, and an- 
nounces the fact that he has become editor-in-chief of the Ad- 
vance" A. It is not my business to explain that of which I 
know nothing. 

Mr. Crosby — Here is a fact which is a very important one 
in the case at issue ; Dr. Talmage's announcement is published 
on the last page, and is headed, " Dr. Talmage's Announcement " 
in large letters ; and again, upon another page, " Eev. T. DeWitt 
Talmage publishes his valedictory to the readers of Christian at 
Work, and announces the fact that he has become the editor- 
in-chief of the Advance ; " then it goes on with details and direc- 
tions as to where Dr. Talmage is to be found, and the fact is 



667 



stated, that people can send their subscriptions to him, &c, re- 
ferring directly to his valedictory ; now, what I ask him is to 
explain how the person who prepared that advertisement ob- 
tained the information which enabled him to make the state- 
ment that he did in that advertisement. 

The Witness — On the afternoon of October 9th, General 
Howard and I completed oar arrangement ; we completed our 
memorandum, as he says in his affidavit ; I changed my idea ; 
instead of going upon the Advance, November 14th, I had 
found that this paper had been surreptitiously and meanly sold 
without consulting me, who was the editor-in-chief, stock- 
holder and trustee, and after that infamy had been committed 
I very naturally gave the information to General Howard when 
the memorandum was made out. 

Q. Do you suppose it was from that information this adver- 
tisement was prepared ? A. It would seem to be the natural 
inference. 

Q. General Howard says in his affidavit that the adver- 
tisement was prepared for that issue in great haste, and with 
the fear that it might be late ; do you know whether any one 
else possessed a knowledge of your valedictory besides General 
Howard, before you took it to the press-room Monday night ? 
A. That I don't remember ; I don't remember where I wrote 
my valedictory ; it bears the evidence of very rapid writing ; 
I suppose it may, perhaps, have taken me ten minutes to 
write it 

Q. Do yon remember whether you informed any person be- 
fore you wrote your valedictory that you were going to write 
such a one ? A. I don't remember giving any such informa- 
tion, because I didn't know about it until I began to write it, 
or about that time. 

Q. Did you inform any person before you learned from the 
employee, between 2 and 4 p.m., that the paper had been sold, 
that you intended to publish in that issue of the paper a 
valedictory editorial ? A. I don't have any remembrance of 
any such thing as that. 

Q. Can you tell how long it would take to prepare such an 
advertisement and deliver it at Crap's, 27 Kose street ? A. 
At the outside it would take an hour with four or five men up- 



668 



on it — it would take an hour to get it into shape ; it might be 
done sooner with more force, but with four or five men it 
could not be done in less than an hour. 

Q. To write it and set it np you mean? A. Yes ; to have it 
set up and put in proper shape. If there was an advertise- 
ment that had been written and published in the paper it 
could be changed to mean something immediate, as that does, 
in five minutes. 

Q. What time did you have your conversation with General 
Howard ? A. I cannot tell ; I suppose, perhaps, about 3 or 4 
o'clock. 

Q. You testified that you had been to Mr. Crap's ? A. Since 
the trial began. 

Q, When you went there you inquired about this advertise- 
ment ; did you ascertain what time, on Monday, October 9th, 
it was taken there to have the stereotype prepared ? A. No ; 
I asked the precise moment when it came up, but he did not 
remember. It was sent there at 5 o'clock ; I have found out 
that fact that it was sent to his office at 5 o'clock, and was put 
into papier mache, and got back at 6 to the office of Mr. C. C. 
Shelly, Barclay street ; the whole thing —the sending over, the 
putting into papier mache, and the returning of it — the entire 
enterprise took about an hour and no more. 

Q. You had not been informed then by any one that it was 
left at Crap's before 2 o'clock ? A. No, sir ; it was not: I know 
it was not, on my information given me. 

Q. I hope that information will be brought before the court ? 
A. It will be, I suppose ; I defer to my counsel in all these 
things. 

Q. You were asked by your counsel this question : " You 
had no idea then of the fact that it was to be inserted?" To 
which you answered : " No, sir ;" and then you added — " I will 
explain, that I understood all along that there was to be what 
was called ' exchange advertisement,' &c, with the Advance." 
Did you understand that such advertisement was to be made 
in the paper containing your valedictory when you talked with 
General Howard about exchange advertisements; was it the 
understanding that whenever you put your valedictory in there 
should be an advertisment the same time? A. I did not testify 
to any such understanding as that. 



669 



Q. I call your attention to two bits of evidence ; Mr. Haw- 
ley testified that he received a letter from the Advance a week 
before the issue of October 12th, urging the exchange of ad- 
vertisements, and expressing a strong desire to get the Ad- 
vances advertisement into the issue of the Christian at Work 
for October 12th ; then turning to General Howard's letter, we 
find that confirmed; he says that he made an engagement or 
arrangement with the advertising manager of the Christian at 
Work that such an advertisement should be inserted in the 
next number of the paper, even if it should arrive late, as 
was apprehended ; did you learn from General Howard why 
he wished to have the Advances advertisement in that special 
number of the Christian at Work ? A. I don T t think I had 
any conversation in regard to that. 

Q. Do you know whether General Howard made this ar- 
rangement about the Advance advertisement appearing in that 
special number of the Christian at Work before or after your 
interview with him in the afternoon ? A. No, sir, I do not ; I 
had nothing to do with it ; I knew nothing about it. 

Q. You have spoken of Mr. Shelly ; how long have you 
known him ? A. I have known him seven or eight years. 

Q. Is he an elder in your church ? A. He is. 

Q. How long has he been an elder ? A. I should think four 
or five years. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Shelly on Monday, October 9th ? A. I 
think I did ; I believe I saw him in his counting room ; his 
counting room is a very convenient place to go to. 

Q. Can you tell what time it was on Monday that you saw 
him? A. No. 

Q. Do you remember what you talked about with him ? A. 
No ; I am very often in his counting room. 

Q. "What is his business? A. He is a printer. 

Q. Do you know how the advertisement reached the office 
or the publishing room of the Christian at Work ? A. No, I 
do not. 

Q. When did you first learn that it was taken to the 
Christian at Work ? A.I don't know ; I never had anything 
to do with that. 

Q. What did you have in your mind when you said to the 



670 



Committee of this Presbytery, in your conference with them, 
that you might have carried it there as a bundle or package? 
A. If you will read the whole account of that interview you 
will see that I distinctly said that I did not take it; then I 
thought that afterwards, perhaps, some person might have 
sent a package with me, but I remember of carrying no pack- 
age to the office. 

Q. How did you come to think of the advertisement as a 
bundle or package? A. I did not ; I had heard in the course 
of this trial that it was a lar^e electrotype which had taken 
some ten or fifteen hours to prepare. 

Q. This was before that; had you heard before that what it 
was ? A. I had forgotten whether I heard it was an electroype 
or not ; I think I heard somebody say it was an electrotype, 
then ; after that I heard in the opening of this case on the part 
of the prosecution that it was something that it took perhaps 
ten hours to make, and which is made at considerable expense ; 
I couldn't understand that, and I have since found out that it 
was papier mache, which takes twenty minutes instead of ten 
hours, and which costs forty cents. 

Q. You had learned before the beginning of the trial— be- 
fore this conference with the committee, that it was in some 
such form of stereotype or electrotype ? A. I don't know ; I 
don't know what my impression was in regard to it. 

Q. Did you ever talk with Mr. Shelly about that advertise- 
ment ? A. I have within a week or so. 

Q. Did you before that ? A. Not that I now remember. 

Q. Do you know that Mr. Shelly had set that advertisement 
up in type ? A. I think Mr. Shelly told me so when he gave 
me that information ; I never discussed it particularly until I 
think the fore part of this trial ; I saw him in his seat appar- 
ently very much amused while the discussion was going on in 
regard to the elaborate and expensive electrotype which took 
ten hours to prepare ; I was somewhat interested to know 
what his amusement was about, and I found out afterwards 
that it was not an electrotype at all, but it was papier mache, 
which was made in twenty minutes ; it was a very natural 
amusement for a person that understands about those things. 

Q. Did you, on Monday, October 9th, see Mr. Shelly and 



671 



talk with him on that day about the advertisement ? A. I 
don't remember now. 

Q. You are not certain whether you did or not ? A. Mr. 
Shelly quite frequently does printing in connection with church 
matters ; if we have anything that we wish very beautifully 
done we are very apt to get him to do it, and I am very apt 
to go in there. 

Q. You cannot swear positively that you did not talk with 
Mr. Shelly on that day about the advertisement ? A. I can't 
tell ; I have no remembrance of it ; I would express the desire 
that if possible my examination be concluded to-day ; my wife 
is very ill in consequence of the nervous strain to which she 
has been subjected upon this trial — very seriously ill, and I 
do not know at what moment I may be called to leave the city 
with her. 

Q. I have but very few more questions to ask you ; I ask 
you now in relation to the sixth specification ; was there a 
meeting of the members of the Board of Trustees at your 
house in the spring of 1878 — March 21st — when the subject 
of the organist was considered ? A. There was a meeting of 
that kind ; I don't know the date ; it was at the close of an 
absence of three or four weeks. 

Q. Was a resolution offered and passed requesting the Ses- 
sion to appoint another organist in the place of Mr. Morgan ? 
A. I cannot give evidence to that ; I should refer to the mem- 
bers of the Session who are present. 

Q. It is in evidence that there was such a resolution ; did 
you not advocate the adoption of some such resolution ? A. 
My only remembrance of those meetings— we had two or three 
meetings — was that I hoped that Mr. Morgan would be re- 
tained ; I have forgotten the circumstances ; the whole thing 
is indefinite. 

Q. Did you ever give as a reason why you opposed making 
a request to the Session to appoint another organist ? did you 
not give as a reason for that that you did not perceive it was a 
mere strategy by which the Session was to obtain control of 
the matter, or words to that effect? it was stated that you said 
that the reason why you opposed making any request to the 
Session to appoint another organist, was because you did not 



672 



perceive that it was a mere strategy on the part of the Session 
to gain control of the music ? A. I never saw any strategy in 

my Session. 

Q. You never said those words or words to that effect? A. 
I don't remember ; I would not be apt to say anything against 
my Session. 

Q. Did you hear Mr. Pearsall testify that you had promised 
to announce to the congregation that you would be responsible 
for the action of the Trustees in not letting Mr. Morgan have 
the Tabernacle for a concert? A. Yes, sir; I heard him 

say so. 

Q. Did you ever say that you did not promise to explain 
that in the pulpit, that you promised to tell the Session but 
not the congregation, or words to that effect? A. I heard Mr. 
Pearsall say I promised to make an announcement of some 
kind on the following Sabbath, and did not do it, which is the 
most natural thing in the world ; there is not a Sabbath but 
what I forget some publication ; last Sabbath for instance, I 
had said with a good deal of emphasis I would give a notice 
which was sent to me by a dear friend of mine some two or 
three days previously ; when the Sabbath came I forgot all 
about it greatly to my chagrin; I did not think of it until Mon- 
day ; so when Mr. Pearsall says that I promised to give a 
notice on the following Sabbath that was given to me on 
Thursday I have an idea that he is right. 

Q. That explains that point, but my question was, did you 
ever say that you did not promise to explain that from the 
pulpit — that you promised to tell the Session but not the con- 
gregation ? A. I don't remember now. 

Q. Did you ever say in reference to the resignation of the 
Trustees who resigned in April, 1878, that you felt grateful 
and relieved, and as happy as a man who had to have a bad- 
aching tooth taken out — who held on to it and didn't want to 
have it pulled, but who was mighty glad when it w^as pulled, 
or words to that effect ? A. I don't remember ; I said a good 
many things ; I don't remember that. 

Q. Did you ever read a letter published over the names of 
Mr. Sillcocks, Mr. John F. Talmage, Mr. Coggswell and others, 
in which they gave their reasons for resigning their office as 
Trustees of the Tabernacle ? A. I never read it. 



673 



Q. Did you ever read a letter published over the name of 
Thomas E. Pearsall, in which he stated he had lost all faith in 
your veracity ? A. I never did. 

Q. Did you ever say you had read them both? A. Mr. Pearsall 
sent me a copy of his letter in manuscript which he published 
the same day or the same evening in the Eagle ; I glanced at 
the one that was sent to me at my house, and I found that it 
was not very refreshing reading, and I did not read it very 
critically or elaborately ; it is one of my rules in life never to 
read anything that is not pleasant. 

Q. Did you ever say that you had never read them both ? 
A. I knew the contents afterwards because I had heard so 
much discussion about them ; I saw at the very start of that 
letter that he made an arraignment of myself. 

Q. Did you say that you read them both ? A. I don't know 
whether I said it or not ; the whole thing seemed too ridicu- 
lously frivolous— that I should have forgotten to give a publi- 
cation on a Sabbath that I had promised to give on a previous 
Thursday, that it seemed to me to be beneath my dignity to 
take any notice of it. 

Q. Did you ever say in reference to these letters, " I feel 
that any pastor who reads these letters will congratulate me 
that they are letters of resignation," or words to that effect? 
A. I don't remember ; I see that you want to stir old matters 
up, and I don't propose to help you do it. 

Q. I am trying to fulfill my duty here ? A. Will you tell 
me what connection it has with this specification ? 

Q. It has a very close connection. A. I cannot see the re- 
lation. 

Q. Do you object to answering the question ? A. These 
gentlemen refuse to come here as witnesses against me ; any- 
body can understand that question. 

Q. I ask you the question once more ? A. I do not wish to 
say anything against these gentlemen ; some of them are very 
good friends, and I do not wish to be brought into any an- 
tagonism with them. 

Q. Did you ever say, " I feel that any pastor who reads 
these letters will congratulate me that they are letters of resig- 
nation," or words to that effect ? A, I decline to answer. 
85 



674 



Q. Did you not so state to a representative of the Eagle on 
the first or second of April, 1878, or about that time? A. I 
decline to answer. 

Q. Did you not say to St.[Clair McKelway, who was an 
elder in your church and a representative or employee of the 
Eagle, that you felt grateful and relieved, and as happy as a 
man who had to have a bad aching tooth taken out, and didn't 
you say to Mr. McKelway, " I feel that any pastor who reads 
these letters will congratulate me that they are letters of 
resignation ? " A. I decline to answer. 

Q. Did you not know that Mr. McKelway was getting your 
words for the purpose of publishing them in the Eagle? A. I 
decline to answer. 

Q. Did you ever know that you had been reported as saying 
such things about these Trustees, or any of them ? A. I decline 
to answer. 

Q. Did you ever know or did you ever hear that you had 
been reported as saying anything unpleasant about these Trus- 
tees or any of them? A. I decline to answer. 

Q. Did you publicly deny that you had said such things? 
A. I decline to answer. 

Q. Did you ever privately deny that you had spoken in that 
way ? A. I decline to answer. 

Q. (Hauding witness paper.) Will you identify that as your 
handwriting? A. I think that is mine. 

Q. I will read it to you : 

" Monday, 

" Dear Nephew : 

" Last night we smashed our debt. That debt was the crown 
of all divergencies which ended in the late unhappiness, i. e., 
the question of economy. Come to the meeting of thanksgiv- 
ing to-morrow night. I have never said anything that was 
unclever about you or any of the Trustees. I am not respon- 
sible for newspaper or verbal reports of what was said. I hear 
you are going into the country for a couple of years. Come 
around to-morrow night, and show that you feel all right. I 
do not know how you will interpret this letter ; I hope as I 
mean it. Let the dead past bury its dead. There :'s no feel- 
ing that would make you anything but comfortable to-morrow 



675 



night. I think country fare and silence will now fetch you 
around all right. 

" Yours truly, 

"T. DW. T." 

Marked Exhibit 1, April 23d, 1879. 

Q. Did you not state from your pulpit, within ten days of 
the time when you are reported to have had that interview 
with Mr. McKelway, March 24th, 1878, that the Board of 
Trustees of your church were all your personal friends ? A. 
I do not remember now. 

Q. I come now to another matter in regard to the second 
specification ; did yoa ever see a circular letter signed by C. 
H. Howard & Co., addressed to Mr. C. D. Paine, Superinten- 
dent of the Subscription Department of the Advance: it pro- 
fesses to give all the facts concerning your withdrawal from the 
Christian at Work? A. I never remember to have seen any. 

Q. I will show you a copy of it, and ask you if you remem- 
ber it? A. (Witness reads paper.) I do not remember to 
have seen that. 

Q. It is headed: " Dr. Talmage, Christian at Work." Copy 
letter giving all the facts, etc., signed by C. H. Howard & Co. 

Dr. Spear — The doctor does not identify the paper. 

Mr. Crosby — I am simply giving the paper its designation, 
which I think it is proper and right to do. 

Q. Do you know that such, a letter was issued by C. H. 
Howard & Co. ? A. No ; I have no remembrance of it. 

Q. Were you ever informed that such a letter was in circu- 
lation among the agents ? A. I don't remember having any 
conversation at all about that ; the business department and 
affairs of the paper were something I never had anything to 
do with. 

Q. Did you not give to C. H. Howard & Co., or some one in 
their employ, information as to the alleged facts that were in 
their letter ? A. I don't remember now ; I talked at different 
times in regard to it. 

Q. Did you say to any one connected with C. H. Howard 
& Co., that you were President of the Board of Trustees at 
the time you left the Christian at Work? A. No ; I don't 
think I did. 



676 



Q. Was it the fact that you were the President of the Board 
of Trustees ? A. I don't know whether I was or not ; I was 
not overborne with the honor. 

Q. Did you ever say that you had put a large amount of 
money in it, and induced your friends to put in a good deal 
more, or words to that effect ? A. I do not remember any 
such thing. 

Q. Did you put large amounts of money into the paper, and 
induce your friends to put in a good deal more ? A. I put in 
money myself, but I did not induce my friends to do so ; I 
gave a large amount of money for me ; it would not have been 
much to some other persons, but it was, however, a large sum 
for me ; I remember I had to stir around considerably to 
get it. 

Q. Did you ever state, as one of your reasons for leaving 
the Christian at Work, that the principal owner of the paper 
insisted that the paper should advocate certain perfectionist 
or higher life doctrines, with which you did not agree, or words 
to that effect? A. I do not remember any conversation of 
that kind ; I felt that one reason of Mr. Remington's antipathy 
to me was, that some of his sentiments I felt I could not ad- 
vocate in his paper. 

Q. Was one of your reasons for leaving the fact that one of 
the principal owners of the paper insisted upon your advocat- 
ing higher life doctrines, as they are called ? A. I believe in 
the higher life myself, — two different kinds of higher life. 

Q. My question is, was that one of your reasons for with- 
drawing from that paper — that the principal owner insisted 
that the paper should advocate certain perfectionist or higher 
life doctrines with which you did not agree ? A. That ques- 
tion is very long — please repeat it. 

(Question repeated ?) A. I do not remember any such con- 
versation as that. 

Q. I ask you whether that was one of your reasons for 
leaving the paper ; I have not asked you about any conversa- 
tion? A. The reason I left the paper was because it left me ; 
it had been sold on Saturday ; and the paper went away from 
me before I went away from the paper ; the one thunderous 
reason was that the whole thing had been sold out from under 
me. 



677 



Q. Did yon give that as a reason why yon left the paper, or 
was that one of the reasons why you left the paper, that the 
principal owner insisted upon your advocating certain higher 
life doctrines, with which you did not agree ? A. I cannot re- 
member now all the emotions that passed through my mind. 

Q. I am asking you for only one of them? A. One was that 
I found the thing had been sold surreptitiously. 

Q. I am asking you whether what I have stated was one of 
the reasons why you left the paper ? A. I don't think I had 
any other idea in my mind that afternoon, except the one I 
have stated, namely, that the paper had been sold out from 
under me. 

Q. Do you say that was not one of your reasons ? A. That 
afternoon I think I had nothing but that idea in my mind. 

Q. You decline to state whether it was one of your reasons 
for leaving the paper ? A. I have answered the question. 

Q. I am asking you if this was one of the reasons for leaving 
the paper? A. I have answered the question as well as I know 
how. 

Q. Yery well, we will leave it there ; I will now pass to 
another point ; did you ever state that you had learned in- 
directly that there were attempts to sell the Christian at Work? 
A. Oh, yes; but not from any member of the corporation. 

Q. You had only learned indirectly that there were attempts 
to sell the Christian at Work ? A. I heard in various ways 
that a movement was on foot to sell the paper in a way dis- 
graceful to myself, or so as to drop me out in injury and 
disgrace ; I was impressed with that fact ; I knew from various 
sources that there was an attempt to drop me out, to my 
injury and disgrace. 

Q. Did you state that you had found that an attempt had 
been made to sell out your services ? A. I do not remember 
any such statement as that. 

Q. Did you find that an attempt had been made to sell out 
your services ? A. I have forgotten the various stages of those 
events ; I have a faint recollection that at one time the idea 
was to sell me out with the paper ; but the more forceful im- 
pression was finally made upon my mind that the paper was 
to be sold from under my feet. 



678 



Q. You had both reasons, then, for leaving? A. The latter 
one was the only one finally. 

Q. Then C. H. Howard & Co., in publishing this letter pur- 
porting to contain all the facts, did so without your- knowledge ? 
A. I don't know what I may have said to them, or what they 
may have written to me in regard to it. 

Q. I pass to the matter of the telegrams ; did you have any 
conversation with your nephew, Dan Taltoage, about this 
$5,000 subscription, before you telegraphed to J. F. Talmage ? 
A. That I cannot state ; I cannot tell the chronology of the 
events ; I talked about raising the church debts at different 
times with the young Talmages, perhaps for a year before. 

Q. Do you remember asking Daniel Talrnage, on the even- 
ing of the 28th of January — the evening of the meeting of the 
Trustees — where his brother John was? A. No, I do not re- 
member ; I found out in some way where Mr. John Talmage 
was. 

Q. Do you remember Daniel Talmage refusing to tell you 
where his brother John was ? A. I don't remember of having 
a conversation with him on that specific occasion ; I very olten 
saw him. 

Q. Do you remember asking him to telegraph John F, Tal- 
mage himself in regard to this matter? A. No, I don't re- 
member. 

Q. Do you remember that he would not tell the contents of 
the telegram which he received from John F. Talmage, in re- 
ply to the one he sent? A. I don't remember. 

Q. Did you suggest to Daniel Talmage to put his name 
down for $5,000, and promise to make up the difference ? A. 
I don't know ; I sent a telegram, which you have seen ; whether 
I had any conversation with Daniel Talmage in regard to it, 
or with his brother John, I don't know. 

Q. Do you remember his saying to you, " Uncle De Witt, 
that is too thin ?" A. No, I don't remember. 

Q. Any similar expression ? A. No, I don't remember. 

Q. Did he say to you, "While I am in the rice business, I 
will not do anything of that sort ; but if I go into the ministry, 
perhaps I may ?" A. I don't remember of his saying that ; I 
received a letter from him a few days ago, in which he said 
that you intended to drive me out of the Presbytery. 



679 



Q. Did you say to Daniel Talmage words to this effect : 
" We must have your name for $5,000, to use with Sillcocks ? 
A. I don't remember any such conversation. 

Q. Do you remember ever saying to him that you would 
like to have his name for a certain amount to use with any one 
else ? A. I don't remember any such conversation. 

Q. Do you deny that you said it ? A. I don't remember ; I 
had a good many conversations with the Messrs. Talmage ; I 
protest against the disposition to (as was said in the letter in 
the Eagle) set blood against blood ; I decline to answer any 
question that proposes to place me in antagonism with my 
nephews ; I have no antagonism with them, and I don't intend 
to be placed in that position. 

Q. Did you not tell the Committee of the Presbytery that 
the whole design in procuring the subscription from John F. 
Talmage for $5,000, part of which you were to pay, was to 
arouse the enthusiasm of the people ? A. I don't remember 
now exactly what I said ; I did not give all the reasons in the 
case ; ray first and great reason was that we wanted to raise 
$25,000 from the Board of Trustees before we started upon the 
congregation ; I felt that if we could not raise that amount 
there, it would hardly be worth while to go further ; the other 
reason, which was of a more delicate nature, I did not give, 
because I did not know that it was anybody's business, as it 
involved my relations to my brother Daniel ; but I felt after- 
wards that probably, in justice to myself, I ought to speak of 
it, and I stated it, and it involved the recital of the endeared 
relations between my brother and myself ; I did not feel called 
upon to state that to the committee, and to tell them every- 
thing ; I did not tell them that ; but I thought afterwards per- 
haps it was better that I should do so. 

Q. You told it in part ; you gave different reasons which 
were perfectly consistent with each other ; you said the whole 
design was to arouse the enthusiasm of the people ? A. He 
was one of the Board of Trustees, and, as I say, I had that 
idea of raising $25,000 in the Board in my mind. 

Q. Another reason was that your nephews might be brought 
prominently forward in the matter ? A. I don't know whether 
I said that or not. 



680 



Q. You intimated it in answer to a question of Mr. Babcock ; 
you said that he was your nephew, and that you felt you could 
do that way with him, because of the nearness of your rela- 
tionship. In regard to the first reason for inspiring the con- 
gregation, I wish to inquire how were the congregation to be 
inspired by the fact that John F. Talmage's name was down 
for $5,000 — how were they to know that fact ? A. He was one 
of the Board of Trustees, from whom we hoped to raise the 
$25,000. 

Q. Were not the names of the different members of the 
Board of Trustees announced with the amounts that they 
gave ? A. I have forgotten now. 

Q. Do you remember whether the whole amount that the 
Board of Trustees subscribed was announced in one lump, or 
was it announced according to the different sums given ? A. 
I have forgotten whether we raised $25,000 from subscriptions 
on the part of the Board of Trustees, now, or not. 

Q. Unless this public interest was to be excited by an an- 
nouncement of that kind, what effect would your nephew's 
subscription of $5,000 have upon the public interest ? A. We 
desired to raise $25,000 in the Board of Trustees, and being 
one of the Board, it was necessary, in order to raise that 
amount, that the different members of the Board should sub- 
scribe different amounts. 

Q. Did you not offer to make up Mr. Hobbs's subscription 
also ? A. I believe I did in the telegram. 

Q. Do the same reasons apply in the case of Mr. Hobbs that 
apply in the case of your nephew ? A. No, not all the reasons ; 
Mr. Hobbs was a very pleasant gentleman ; but he was not a 
relative. 

Q. Did you or not, in announcing the telegrams from the 
pulpit, on February 2d, when you said that any man who 
could twist anything wrong out of that was either a knave or a 
fool, or some such expression, omit the word "privately" from 
the telegram that you read ? A. I did not consciously ; I 
may have omitted a word ; I must say that I am not particular 
when I read notices, and I sometimes leave words out. 
By Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. You have testified, you will remember, that you paid 



681 



$2,500' to help the Christian at Work in a financial emergency ; 
what did you mean by a financial emergency in this connec- 
tion ? A. There came a time when we had to stop or raise 
$5,000. 

Q. Were you one of the incorporators of the new publishing 
company, when the company passed from the association into 
what was known as the Christian at Work Publishing Com- 
pany? A. I don't know how my name stood; I only know 
the one fact, that I paid the $2,500 ; it was very plain to me. 

Q. Did you pay that into the treasury of the Christian at 
Work Publishing Company ? A. We had to borrow $5,01)0, 
and we made up a note for that amount ; I paid $2,500 of it 
and another gentleman paid $2,500. 

Q. Did you pay more than $1,750 into the treasury of the 
Christian at Work; you think your shares were not then 
$2,500 ; wasn't it a piece of financial sagacity on the part of 
Dr. Talrnage without signing a note which made him responsi- 
ble ? A. Oh, no ; when I put my name to the note, I expected 
to pay the whole thing ; I always do ; I never put my name to 
a note unless I expect to pay the whole thing. 

Q. You did not pay this $2,500 into the treasury of the 
Christian at Work Company ? A. I had forgotten that $1,750 ■ 
I paid $2,500 beside that. 

Q. Besides the $1,750? A. Yes; I had forgotten that; I 
will present my bill and collect the whole of it. 

Q. How many shares did you own? A. I had a large share 
of the trouble — that I know ; and I think I had the largest 
share. 

Q. In your direct-examination you said that when you left 
the Christian at Work Publishing Company, you turned over 
$2,500 of shares to help Mr. Hawley ? A. Oh, no ; I don't 
think I turned over $25 worth. 

Q. You said the shares amounted to $2,500? A. No; you 
have got me wrong there. 

Q. I have taken the substance of your evidence from the 
stenographic report ? A. That is not correct ; when I came 
to give my direct-examination I was speaking of this $2,500, 
and afterwards I remembered that probably I did not make 
my meaning plain ; and when I came to look over some of the 
86 



682 



reports of my testimony, I found that according to them they 
seemed to give the idea that it was an additional $2,500, which 
was not correct. 

Q. You spoke of turning over your shares, after the paper 
had been sold to Mr. Hawley, at his request ; how much weie 
those shares worth? A. There was nothing connected with 
the paper that was worth much. 

Q. Were they not absolutely worthless — not worth the 
paper they were written on ? A. I don't know that ; Mr. Haw- 
ley applied to me for these shares, and I considered the mat- 
ter a moment, and I remember the idea passed through my 
mind that, " If I just give these shares away, then I will be en- 
tirely free from the Christian at Work ; " and I gave the whole 
thing away ; I did not know what it was worth — whethei it 
was worth anything or not. 

Q. You have got two thiugs confounded in your mind, or 
probably I have ; did the Christian at Work Publishiug Com- 
pany own and publish, in addition to the Christian at Work, 
any Sabbath-school papers? A. Yes, there were Sabbath- 
school papers went out from the office. 

Q. What portion of the value of the assets of the company 
did those Sabbath-school papers represent ? A. Th;it I could 
not tell ; I have no idea. 

Q. They are supposed to have been worth one-third ; at the 
time you turned over your shares to Mr. Hawley, the Christian 
at Work had been sold and all the assets that remained of the 
publishing company were the Sabbath-school papers ; your 
shares, therefore, were worth, when you turned them over to 
Mr. Hawley, one-third of the amount they bore upon their 
face ; so, as a matter of fact, if the shares were not absolutely 
worthless, they were only worth one-third of the amount that 
they bore on their face ? A. I hope the brother will not ex- 
haust himself on that question ; I cannot understand a word 
of it. 

Q. Did you not know that Mr. Hawley took the Sabbath 
school papers and assumed $14,000 of the liabilities of the in- 
solvent company, when he asked you for the surrender of your 
shares of the stock? A. No; all the impression I had when 
I gave him up those shares was the hope that he would make 
a fortune out of them. 



683 



Q.- You have testified to the fact that Mr. Remington sold 
the paper, and that you never got anything but " thank you,' 
and did not even get that ; and the implication is that Mr. 
Remington received something when he sold the paper ; do 
you not know that after the paper was disposed of, Mr. Rem- 
ington became responsible for the liabilities of the defunct 
company to the amount of $50,000? A. All I know about it 
was that Mr. Eemington talked a good deal about being out of 
pocket; I know also that all the moneys that were received at 
the Christian at Work office went into his pocket; and it was 
very natural that he would pay out the expenses ; but it has 
been represented here, or seems to have been represented on 
this trial, that none of this money went into Mr. Remington's 
pocket ; whereas, the fact is that the entire proceeds of the 
establishment went into his pocket. 

Q. Do you not know that Mr. Remington never received a 
dollar, principal or interest, of the money which he had put 
into the Christian at Work Publishing Company ; but that he 
discharged its liabilities, amounting to $50,000? A. No; I 
don't know that. 

Q. I will ask you a question upon another point ; did any 
member of your Session object to your method of receiving, 
upon profession of their faith, members, upon the ground that 
your examination was superficial and unsatisfactory — not on 
doctrinal points, but on the experimental points ? A. No, I 
don't remember any such thing. 

Q. Did any member of your Session, to your knowledge, 
make a motion in the Session to the effect that applications 
for membership should be postponed until they should be in- 
vestigated by the Session? A. I have no remembrance of 
anything of the kind ; I would here like to make an explana- 
tion ; an effort has been somewhat laboriously made to repre- 
sent that I received members without proper caution ; I wish to 
say there is no person in this Presbytery who receives mem- 
bers with more caution ; I am willing to compare my mode of 
receiving members with that of any pastor in this Presbytery - 
it is necessary for me to make this explanation. 

Q. I will ask you one or two questions in regard to the tele- 
grams ; I can conceive of a person's intentions and motives 



684 



being perfectly pure in doing an act while the act itself may 
be open to objection on the part of others ; I want to ask you 
one or two questions in regard to your motives and intentions 
in sending the telegrams, and to ask one or two questions in 
regard to possible inferences that may be drawn from them ; 
will you be kind enough to state your specific object in send- 
ing the telegrams to your nephew ? A. I will state it with 
pleasure ; we had desired to raise the debt ; Mr. John Talmage 
was President of the Board of Trustees, and Mr. Hobbs was 
also a member ; they were in Baltimore ; I felt it very im- 
portant, if we were going on to raise the money, that we should 
get a large impetus from the Board of Trustees ; and I felt 
that if in the Board w r e could raise $25,000, the raising of the 
rest of the money in the congregation would not be a very 
large undertaking ; I felt it would be practically saying on the 
part of the Board of Trustees — "We are interested in this 
matter, and largely interested, and we want you to be also ; " 
that I felt would be the implication ; if they made sacrifices 
and gave their utmost, I could see how that would affect the 
whole congregation, just as when I see a man who is doing 
his duty, it impels me to do my duty. 

Q. In order to accomplish that, you were willing, out of 
your own pocket, to make up this $5,000 ? A. Yes. 

Btdir act-examination by Dr. Millard : 

Q. When Mr. Hawley came to you for those shares, didn't 
you understand that he considered they would be of some value 
to him ? A. Yes ; I considered that as he wanted the stock 
there was some value to it ; people do not generally ask for 
that which is of no use. 

Q. 1 will ask this question ; do you mean to state 
that you expected the blessing of God and the help of Mr. 
Remington, or did you mean to say that if you got those then, 
"we shall live?" A. I expected if we got help, we should 
live. 

Q. Then it was a hint to him to give ? A. Yes. 

Q. Something has been asked you in relation to your sa}dng 
to Mr. Dickinson when he came with that circular, that you 
had no change to suggest ; without any change either party 
were at liberty to terminate the agreement at thirty days no- 
tice, were they not ? A. Yes. 



685 



Q. That was on the face of the agreement ? A. Yes. 

Q. And you had no change to suggest ? A. No ; we both 
understood before the memorandum was made, that in case of 
withdrawal, we should give thirty days' notice, but then I said, 
" I will give you notice now, of four months." 

Q. You were asked by the counsel for the prosecution, what 
reasons you had for thinking Mr. Remington your enemy ; 
did you have any others ? A Yes ; I have the most certain 
evidence of the fact that Mr. Remington is my bitter enemy ; 
the gathering up of the private business letters which I wrote 
him in behalf of the interests of the Christian at Work; al- 
though they have not developed anything against me, the ex- 
posing them in public places, in the Presbytery and through- 
out the country, shows an amount of virulence which I never 
had in my heart against any man. 

Q. Let me ask you another question, whether when you 
were talking with Mr. Hallock on Monday, the reason why 
you did not tell him that you were in treaty with the Ad- 
vance, was that he would have apprised Mr. Remington ? 
A. (I say here distinctly that I knew that what I said to Mr. 
Hallock would be in danger of going to Mr. Remington ; and 
I was so impressed then with Mr. Remington's severe and 
bitter animosity against myself, that I would not, under 
any circumstances have stated to any mortal man anything 
which would be in danger of being communicated to Mr. Rem- 
ington), I would not have given him information in regard to my 
movements ; what might have been a supposition has been 
confirmed not only by the exposure of these letters that I 
speak of, but by his coming from Ilion, two hundred miles, 
and lingering around this court to say something against me. 

Q. I call your attention to another point ; you were asked by 
Brother Crosby to explain how the advertisement should have 
referred to your editorial ; do I understand you to say that 
when you finally went to General Howard to close the matter, 
you told him then that you were going to put in the editorials ? 
A. I told him of this sudden trap that had been sprung on me ; 
and instead of saying to him, " 1 will come to you on Novem- 
ber 14," I practically said to him, " I am ready now." 

Q. Do you remember whether you then told him that you 



686 



were going to put in that editorial? A. I have no doubt of it, 
because that was the one thing in mj mind. 

Q. Then, if he put in that advertisement, he would refer to 
it, wouldn't he ? A. Of course. 

Q. In regard to this provisional memorandum, I want to 
know whether you considered the matter as finally closed^ 
before the Mod day, with General Howard ? A. It had been a 
negotiation with different stages, negotiations, I may say, begun 
hy mere casual letters, but amounting to nothing very specific, 
and the negotiations progressed by different stages, until 
finally the whole matter was closed by Monday noon ; that 
Monday morning, if I had desired to change, and not to go to 
the Advance, General Howard and I had such an understand- 
ing with each other that he would have allowed me to do just 
as I pleased. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. Do you recollect when the first Tabernacle was dedi- 
cated? A. 1 remember the occasion of the dedication. 

Q. Do you recollect the time ? A. I think it was about nine 
years ago. 

Q. September 26th, 1870. A. Yes. 

Q. Did you preach a dedicatory sermon ? A. I did. 

Q. (Handing witness paper.) Will you identify this rather 
long extract as a part of the sermon? A. I recognize it as a* 
report of my dedication sermon ; I would like to read it, and 
then I can tell you positively, alter I do so, whether it is mine 
or not. 

Q. Do you recognize it as yours ? A. Yes, it is mine. 

Q. Please read it as a part ol that sermon ? A. It is an 
extract from the Eagle : 

" I am opposed to pew rents altogether on principle. A 
man's ability should not be the test ot his religious feelings. 
A man without a farthing in his pocket has as much right in 
the House of God, and to all the joys of the sanctuary, as 
another - ith a million. The Church of God makes no differ- 
ence between rich and poor. In the life boat all are together 
on the same boat, and have a fair and equal chance. The day 
for which I have been praying has come. For the first time I 
stand in a church and feel that rich and poor, all who choose 



687 



may come, with no question as to where you come from or how 
much money you have. You are here as immortal men, and I 
welcome you to the hopes, joys and triumphs of the Gospel. 
It would have been a great deal easier for us to stay in the old 
church ; we should have had an easy time. Our income was 
luxurious ; we might have stood with our hands in our pockets ; 
we should have lived very quiet, comfortable and respectable 
lives, and then died and had a very beautiful funeral, with ten 
or eleven carriages drawn by white horses with black fly-nets; 
but at the last great day, when God demanded of us what we 
had done for the dying populations of New York and Brooklyn, 
we would have to hide our heads with shame. We go into 
this enterprise with the eyes of all mankind and the Church 
upon us ; everywhere people are praying for our success, and 
we are testing the mighty question whether the Gospel can be 
brought to bear upon the masses of the people without regard 
to their worldly circumstances. Satan gets five hundred recruits 
where the Church makes one. Instead of the Church convert- 
ing the world, the world is converting the Church. The day 
has come when this should be stopped. I am willing to 
become the target of scorn, if the Almighty will only save the 
people. Our creed is written in front of the organ — One Lord, 
one faith, one baptism, on the way to one heaven. I would 
make our doors as wide as the gates of heaven. Now the 
building is done, take the altar, Lord, an humble offering of 
the best we have." 

Q. I will ask you if in using that language in the sermon 
you preached, you designed to present your theory in regard 
to a free church ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you recollect any request which you made to John 
F. Talmage and Mr. Corwin in respect to canvassing in the 
Sabbath schools ? A. Yes ; I felt that Sabbath school educa- 
tion was very imperfect if it did not reach the parents, so that 
they in time should have a good and beneficent influence on 
the children ; and with that idea, I asked Mr. Corwin and Mr. 
John F. Talmage to visit the parents of the children in the 
Sabbath school, and to find whether they had religious homes ; 
not to induce them to come to our church, for our church has 
no characteristic of proselytism ; I never ask any man to 
come to our church, and I have so advised our church officers. 



688 



Q. Unless they have no religious home? A. Yes ; these 
brethren were to go to the parents, and see if they bad relig- 
ious homes ; if they had none, and had no preference, then to 
invite them to meet me on a certain night in conjunction with 
the pew committee, which assigned the pews of the Taberna- 
cle, that we might assign them a place in the house of God 
where they might be made comfortable and consider it their 
home ; I also made an announcement that persons who had 
comfortable pews with more room than they wanted for their 
families should communicate the fact to the pew committee, 
in order that the pews might be used in the way I have sug- 
gested ; Mr. John Talmage and Mr. Corwin were so much en- 
gaged in their business at that time that they could not attend 
to it. 

Q. What did you do then? A. Then at the close of the 
Sabbath school, I called the teachers of the Sabbath school 
and the Bible classes to remain ; I went into the Sabbath 
School and made that request ; they tarried, and then I laid 
this project before them, of canvassing the families represented 
by the children in the Sabbath school, and find out if they had 
any religious home, and invite them to meet me next Wednes- 
day or Thursday night, for instance, in the Tabernacle, with 
the understanding that I would see if it were possible for them 
to have good comfortable pews for nothing ; they came, and 
in conjunction with a committee from the Board of Trustees, 
we assigned quite a large number of persons to pews, and there 
they are yet ; they have not paid anything, and they have not 
been requested to pay anything; in consideration for those 
persons who came in under what might otherwise be embar- 
rassing circumstancss, and coming in with the understanding 
that they came in that way, we determined not to disturb them 
even by solicitation for pecuniary support. 

Q. How do you understand the thirty days' notice mentioned 
in the agreement which you made with Mr. Dickinson ? A. I 
understood that he was to give me thirty days' notice, and 
that I was to give him thirty days' notice, if either of us wished 
to withdraw from or terminate the contract. 

Q. The obligation was mutual in that respect? A, Yes. 

Q. Did you give Mr. Eemington thirty days' notice of your 



689 



intention to withdraw from the paper? A. I did; and I call 
attention to the fact that if by some accident he did not receive 
the letter which has been referred to until the 9th, there was 
still ample time for the thirty days' notice ; for I did not in- 
tend originally to leave the company until November 14th. 

Q. Is there any doubt resting upon your mind as to the 
question whether that letter was dated October 5, as it pur- 
ports to be ; do you feel certain, in other words, that you 
dated that letter on the 5th of October ? A. Yes, I do. 

Q. You never misdated the letter for any reason ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Have you sometimes had solicitations presented to you, 
and have always declined ? A. Yes. 

Q. Can you give any reason why the postmark is October 9, 
on the outside of the envelope ? A. It might have been de- 
layed by some delay in putting it in the box ; or it might have 
been delayed by some imperfection in the mail box in the 
street, if it were put in there. 

Q. From causes of that kind ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. By no means unnatural or improbable ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You did not intend to become the editor of the Advance 
until November 14? A. No, sir. 

Q. So that Mr. Eemington had thirty days' notice, accord- 
ing to your statement ? A. Yes. 

Q. Why do you say that the Christian at Work was sold 
surreptitiously, when you and Mr. Hallock had been speaking 
about the question of his buying it ? A. The court will ob- 
serve that Mr. Hallock was not the man to give me informa- 
tion ; when I say surreptitiously sold, I mean that Mr. Eem- 
ington was the man who should have given me notice, and not 
Mr. Hallock ; during the whole of this talk about the purchase, 
nothing came to me from Mr. Eemington in the shape of a 
notice ; I had no communication with him for months and 
months ; he went on and sold the paper without giving me any 
intimation, I, being editor-in-chief, trustee and stockholder ; 
any man of common sense will see that I am right, and that it 
was surreptitious ; if it was not surreptitious, there never was 
anything surreptitious. 
87 



690 



Becross-examincdion. by Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. Do you not know that the Trustees of the church had a 
plan in operation by which the pews were virtually rented ? 
A. No, I don't have any such idea as that ; it would have been 
stultifying myself to stand before my congregation, from week 
to week, year after year, making an announcement which they 
all knew to be false ; they certainly would not have abided it, 
and they would have driven me from the pulpit, as any con- 
gregation would. 

Q. Did Mr. Pearsall remonstrate against your form of an- 
nouncements from the pulpit, on the ground that it was a 
misstatement of the facts because each pew had a price at- 
tached to it, and that the price of the pew depended upon its 
location in the church ? A. My remembrance of Mr. BirdsalTs 
criticisms of my announcements, were the same criticisms 
that were made by nearly all the Board at one time, and, 
perhaps, different times, and that was the supposition that 
the mode in which I was giving it out might imply to 
some that they were not expected to pay anything, and it 
might therefore injure the finances of the church ; a man 
might say on the announcements that I was making without 
regard to the dollar question, "Well, this is a free church, and 
I am not expected to pay anything ;" the point of the criticism 
was well taken by the Board of Trustees, and I immediately 
deferred to it; I said, that is all right ; they shall not misun- 
derstand me in regard to it, and then I began to reverse, or 
rather I explained it in this way : " When I say to you, the 
" pews are free in this church without regard to the dollar 
" question," I don't mean that it does not cost money to run 
the church, but I mean to say that your getting a pew here 
does not depend upon what you pay; pay all you can, and 
assist us all in your power, but we don't ask you to pay any- 
thing for your pews ; we want you to be comfortable and feel 
that it is your religious home. 

Q. Did you ever see any diagram of the church, in which a 
specified amount was attached to each pew in the church ? A. 
I don't remember to have seen any. 

Q. Did Mr. Hathaway talk with you on this specific sub- 
ject ? A. I prefer that you would not ask me about conversa- 



691 



tions with Mr. Hathaway, because of the covenant we made 
the other day ; I may say now in this connection, that during 
Mr. Hathaway's testimony on the stand and at a moment 
when I was under the impression that I would not have an op- 
portunity of presenting rebuttal testimony, I made a vehe- 
ment remark in regard to Mr. Hathaway's testimony which I 
now desire to recall and to have blotted out as though I did 
not say it. 

Q. Have you ever known of any person in your church on 
whom such an influence was brought to bear that they vaca- 
ted their pews because they could not or would not pay the 
amount which had been affixed to their pew as a rental ? A. 
I knew in the friction of an institution — an elaborate institu- 
tion — there might be some complaints at different times ; I re- 
member persons making complaints at various times, as there 
are always complaints being made in a church about pews by 
persons who think they ought to have some other pew, but I 
never bothered my mind about them, because we had to have 
a division of labor, and that was not my part of it. 

Q. Did Captain Latham complain to you that he had been 
under the necessity of vacating his pew because he could not 
or would not pay the amount affixed to it? A. I remember 
Captain Latham making some remarks about his pew ; but 
what they were I really cannot recollect. 
By Dr. Wells : 

Q. It is in evidence that you were greatly annoyed by re- 
ports which you found in circulation at the South ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. It is also in evidence that you thought by buying or ask- 
ing your friends to buy the Christian at Work, you might set 
yourself 'right before the public ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember your visit to my house about a year 
ago ? A. Yes ; I remember about that time ; I think it was 
about a year ago. 

Q. Do you remember the subject of our conversation ? A. 
I remember my coming to see you ; do you want me to state 
the subject of the conversation ? 

Q. If you choose ; just far enough to see if you remember it? 
A. It was just after the meeting of the Presbytery, in which 



692 



Mr. Crosby privately told me he proposed to bring up charges 
against me in the Presbytery, and I feared then just what has 
transpired, five weeks of tremendous diversion from all Chris- 
tian work of a great many ministers, as well as the diversion 
on the part of myself from the work which I am trying to do, 
and I was very desirous that no trial should come on ; I 
called on Dr. Wells, as being one of the most influential mem- 
bers of the Presbyter} r , and supposing that by reason of his 
experience, he would have some influence over Mr. Crosby. 

Q. Do you remember the earnest request I made to you at 
the close of that interview, after all this matter about Mr. 
Crosby was disposed of, that is, I promised to write to Mr. 
Crosby, which I did? A. Yes, I think you said at the close of 
the conversation, that it would be well for me to rise in Pres- 
bytery at the next meeting and propose that any persons who 
had questions to ask in regard to any matters that might be 
in the papers, should ask them ; that is as near as I can tell. 

Dr. Wells — Let me refresh your memorj^ ; I may state that 
Dr. Talmage explained to me this matter of the Christian at 
Work, very much as he has explained it here, and I felt very 
greatly relieved ; he also explained a communication of his 
over his own name, in regard to Mr. Morgan, which also re- 
lieved me of the matter of Mr. Morgan ; I don't recollect dis- 
tinctly that any other matters were explained, but those were 
the matters that were before the public, and my request was, 
that he should explain to the Presbytery personally as he had 
explained to me. 

Q. Will you state your answer to that request ; don't you 
recollect that I requested that you explain to the Presby- 
tery just what you had explained to me, and had relieved me 
so much ? A. I do not remember what I said. 

Q. You remember the fact that you explained to me about 
the Christian at Work ? A. I remember talking wuh you 
about it. 

Q. The question I ask you is, do you remember your answer 
to the request I made ? A. I don't remember. 

Q. You said you would seriously consider the matter ; you 
didn't promise absolutely to do it, but said you would seriously 
consider it ; are you willing to give your reasons for not com- 



693 



plying with it ? A. I remember, now, your suggestion that I 
should do so, and the reason is patent to myself now, what- 
ever process my mind might have gone through with at the 
time ; I didn't feel that there was an impression in the public 
mind that demanded any such statement ; in other words, to 
lift up something of that kind in order to tear it down ; I 
didn't suppose that any fair minded man had any impression 
in regard to the matter, that was against myself. 

Q. Had others made a similar request? A. No, sir; Mr. 
Crosby and Mr. Greene spoke to me the same evening ; Mr. 
Crosby first spoke to me, I think, though I cannot give the 
exact chronology, and then I spoke to Mr. Green about it 
afterwards ; I don't remember his suggesting it ; I remember 
his discussing it, and talking with me, as to what was going to 
be done. 

Q. You are not quite right about the date ; Mr. Crosby and 
Mr. Green spoke to you before I did ? A. I was thinking it 
was the same evening. I went through the South from New 
Orleans to Charleston, and I found people who had been tak- 
ing the Christian at Work, and who saw the strictures which 
that paper printed against me at the time of my withdrawal, 
and they had never heard any explanation ; I believed that if 
I purchased the paper, or rather, if my friends purchased it, 
that I would have an opportunity of correcting these strictures, 
but I hadn't any faith, and I have not now, in the lifting up of 
rumors in the sight of all the earth — creating a rumor as it 
were, and then battling with it ; I felt that when the Presby- 
tery took hold of this matter, the result would be just what it 
has been shown to be. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. I want to ask you whether, on the 9th of October, when 
you left the Christian at Work, you had written a regular edi- 
torial, previous to the writing of the valedictory? A. Yes. 

Q. Was it in shape, ready for printing? A. Yes, I wrote 
the editorial. 

Q. Did that not imply that you had control of the editorial 
columns at tha time? A. Yes, I felt I had full control. 

Q. Was that editorial that you had written taken out, and 
your valedictory inserted ? A. Yes ; I put in my editorial, and 
then I withdrew it, in order to put in this valedictory. 



694 



By a Presbyter : 

Q. You didn't wish to be known all over the world and pub- 
licly charged with these things, in order to satisfy a half dozen 
subscribers? A. Yes, that is about my idea. 

Q. Don't you consider your church substantially a free 
church, because any person can have a pew there, and keep it 
by paying whateyer they choose to pay. If some had been pay- 
ing a certain amount in your church, and afterwards say to the 
Trustees we can't pay for our pew any longer, you allow them 
to keep their pew and pay whateyer they can? A. Yes, sir; 
I will say that no later than yesterday, gentlemen came to my 
house statiDg, with a good deal more emotion than I can de- 
scribe, the fact that they had when they first came, paid large- 
ly ; then misfortune came, and they paid nothing for a year and 
a half, for the simple reason that they had nothing to pay ; we 
could bring, if you desired it, any number of witnesses to 
testify to that fact ; we could bring men and women here to 
testify that ours has been a free church — most solemnly free — 
and that the Lord has blessed us in that direction. I would 
like to say in regard to what may seem like slowness on my 
part in answering questions in the afternoon, that it has been 
my habit for twenty-two years to take a sleep every day, and 
during this entire trial, from three to four o'clock, it has been 
a struggle for me to keep awake. 

Q. You sent word to your nephew in regard to your paying 
part of his subscription. Did it occur to your mind, that in 
case he gave a subscription as you requested, afterwards when 
perhaps he might be more prosperous in business, rather than 
that you should pay it, as you had received a great deal of 
money from his father, he would pay the whole of it, and so in 
that way you would be relieved from the danger of deceiving 
others, when it might be a lever to bring a man up to pay the 
amount that you thought he ought to pay. I have known 
cases of that kind to occur, though I have never yet done this, 
but if I did I should consider myself absolved from the charge 
of deceiving any person, for it is often the case that they need 
a lever to induce them to pay what they ought to pay ? A. I 
stated that very thing before the committee, that I supposed 
that eventually Mr. Talmage would pay the $5,000, and then 



695 



the subscription which I intended to give any way would come 

in in addition. 

By Dr. McClelland: 

Q. Do you, so far as you judge your own heart, regret hav- 
ing made the statement that you did to Mr. Hathaway and 
Dr. Van Dyke ? A. I decline to say anything more in regard 
to that subject ; it has not been decided, that I know of, that 
I did say that. 

Q. I put the question so as to give you the benefit of the 
whole thing ; that is my design in putting it? A. I would be 
very glad to accommodate the brother with an answer, but I 
decline to do so ; I think it is against the covenant made with 
Mr. Hathaway in regard to the matter, and I think all that 
should stay buried. 

Q. I would like to ask you whether you would think it to be 
a violation of your covenant with Mr. Hathaway to answer 
this question ; did you make the charge to Dr. Yan Dyke 
which he understood you to make, that he had been guilty of 
default in the church funds ; A. No ; Mr. Hathaway is mis- 
taken in regard to that. 

Dr. McClelland — I would like to ask brother Talmage if he 
would be willing to say, that if he did say such a thing, he 
takes it all back. 

The Witness — I. must defer to my counsel. 

Mr. McCullagh — I would like to ask the witness if he regards 
it as a violation of the covenant into which he entered with 
Mr. Hathaway to answer the question, before this court, 
whether he used those words in regard to Dr. Van Dyke ? 

The "Witness — I can answer that ; I don't remember to have 
said that ; I will also say that, while I don't remember to have 
said that, I am certain, in that connection, I was sharply crit- 
ical of the " Augustine " letter, which Dr. Van Dyke had writ- 
ten ; I don't remember all the circumstances, but I think I 
must have been sharply critical of that letter. 
By Dr. McClelland : 

Q. Are you willing to say, before the court, that if you made 
any such remark, you withdraw it ? A. I withdraw it if I said 
it ; if it is possible to withdraw something that you don't re- 
member to have said, I do withdraw it. 



696 



Q. Do you believe now that you had reasons for such state- 
ments as you believe you did make to Dr. Van Dyke con- 
cerning Mr. Hathaway ? 

Dr. Spear — He cannot answer that question. 

" I sign this testimony contained in this and the preceding 
folios without having had time to read them, on the presump- 
tion they are all right." 

October 18, 1879. T. De WITT TALMAGE. 

At the close of the session, Dr. Talmage was discharged, 
subject to a possible recall and examination on Specifica- 
tion IV. 

Presbytery adjourned. 

J. M. GBEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



Apeil 24th, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 24th, at three p.m. 

A letter was received from Dr. Talmage announcing his in- 
ability to be present, owing to the illness of his wife. 

Mr. C. M. Nichols was then called, and being duly sworn, 
testified as follows : 

Examined by Dr. Spear on the Third Specification : 

Q. Are you a member of the Tabernacle Church ? A. I 
am. 

Q. How long have you been a member ? A. I think about 

six years. 

Q. Are you an officer of that church ? A. I am. 

Q. What is your office? A. I am Trustee and Elder. 

Q. Are you a member of the pew committee ? A. I am 
chairman of the pew committee. 

Q. How long have you been such? A. One year, on the 
22d of April. 

Q. Will you, in your own way, and as much at large as you 
think best, state the manner of assigning pews in that church ? 
A. One invariable rule is to ask persons wanting seats in 
the church what part of the church they would prefer to sit in, 
and then, with a map of the church before them, which is gen- 
erally the case, we show them the map of the lower part of the 
house, and also of the gallery, and ask them if they have se- 



697 



lected the portion of the house — which part they prefer to sit in ; 
after their choice has been made, we then direct them to the 
different numbers of the pews, and generally, especially in the 
evening session of the pew committee, we go with them to the 
pews, to show them the location ; if they are satisfied with the 
location we assign them a pew or a portion of a pew, and then 
take their names aud addresses ; after that, they are entered 
on the pew book, and we ask them what they think they can 
afford to pay for the support of worship ; they generally state 
what they think they can afford to give ; some of them name 
one price aud some another ; their names and addresses, and 
the amount that they expect or think they can afford to pay 
is entered on the book ; we then inform the usher where they 
are located, with their pews and the number of the pew, and 
the name is entered on a card ; that is given to the usher, so 
that he knows that they have the pew reserved, and knows the 
number of the pew that is reserved for a family or a part of a 
family ; then we instruct them that they must be in their pews 
ten minutes before the service begins; that is one of the con- 
ditions ; and it is imposed so that strangers coming in after- 
wards can be comfortably accommodated. 

Q. Is that a complete statement ? A. That is all I recol- 
lect. 

Q. Do you have a collection every Sabbath ? A. Yes, we 
have a collection each service, morning and evening, 

Q. The expenses of the congregation are met in what way? 
A. Some, and quite a number, in the church pay by plate col- 
lections only ; it is understood at the time what they can pay 
or think they can pay, and they pay by weekly collections, 
either by envelope or what they see fit to put in the box; quite 
a number, I should think one-third of our whole congregation 
pay their subscriptions in that way ; they pay what they think 
they can afford to without naming any specific sum ; there are 
also a number who pay their subscriptions quarterly in ad- 
vance, just as they choose ; some pay in advance, as they 
choose, and some pay only as they can afford to. 

Q. When subscriptions are made, you make out your bills 
regularly ? A. Yes, but we know what the specific amount is ; 
we send their bills by mail, and they put their money into an 
88 



698 



envelope or on a collection plate the following Sunday or at 
some Sunday during the three months. 

Q. Can you state to the court any special facts that have 
transpired under your observation and within your knowledge 
that illustrate the operation of this system? A. 1 have in 
my mind several instances ; I have a record at home, a very 
complete one, of the amounts subscribed, but I have now some 
lew in my mind ; for instance, in the main body of the church 
on the floor that we call the flat ; there is No. 32, for instance, 
it is occupied by a gentleman who has large means, and he 
subscribes $200 for that seat ; only two pews back of his, 
there is a pew which is just as eligible, in fact, it has one or 
two more seats, and we have $5 only from that party ; he is 
poor ; we take his word for it, and we found, upon investiga- 
tion, that he was not able to do more ; then we have one that 
was formerly occupied by Daniel Talmage ; he subscribed 
$100, and the gentleman who occupies it now gives us $20 ; he 
says he is not warranted any pay and qannot afford to pay 
more than that; we believe him to be a perfect gentleman; 
then there are others, one pew near brother Seals ; if I had 
the map of the church I could point it out and describe it ; 
the party occupying that pew has been there two years and 
more, and he has not paid us anything, but when he was in 
successful business he paid $3 )0 a year ; since then he has 
been unfortunate and has not been able to keep it up, and so 
he has been occupying the pew ever since ; he came to us and 
stated his situation ; I told him the pew was his just as long 
as he saw fit to occupy it, and he does occupy it, and what he 
can afford to give he puts in the plate ; no one knows what he 
gives, it is left to his conscience, and that is the case with a 
great many others who occupy pews in the church. 

Q. These examples that you have given are practical illustra- 
tions of the system, as you apply it? A. I understand that it 
is distinctly and clearly a free church on the basis that the 
pew committee is instructed to act. 

Q. That is the present system? A. Yes; always has been 
since I have been there ; I never heard of its being anything 
else, and I have been there for six years. 

Q. You have heard Dr. Talmage's announcement about 
pews, without reference to the dollar question? A. Yes, sir. 



699 



Q. What did you understand him to mean by that announce- 
ment? A. I understood him to mean, literally, as it appears 
to me, that there was no fixed rental of the pews, that the 
pews were to be assigned to parties, and the amount sub- 
scribed was left entirely with their conscience in the matter. 

Q. Has Dr. Talmage latterly been in the habit of supple- 
menting that statement with any remarks as to what those 
occupying pews shall give ? A. He has left off the dollar 
question because it was misconstrued or misunderstood by 
some of the congregation, and he merely stated that the ex- 
pense of worship there was paid entirely by voluntary sub- 
scription. 

Q. But that without fixing the price of any of the pew- 
holders? A. Yes ; it was understood by every one that they 
would pay what they felt in their conscience they ought to 
pay for their enjoyment of the pastor's services, and the ac- 
commodations in the church. 

Q. So far as you know has there been any misapprehension 
among the people of the congregation as to this system ? A. 
I never have heard any complaint made to the pew com- 
mittee. 

Q. Did you ever hear any remarks that it was not a free 
church ? A. I never heard of it, sir, until this investigation. 

Q. Did you ever hear a remark to the effect that it was a 
rental church ? A. No, sir ; I don't so understand it, and I 
aon't think any church goers there understand it so at all. 
By Mr. Mfllard : 

Q. You say after a pew is assigned you ask them what they 
will give ; do I understand you to say that the pew is then 
assigned absolutely before the question of what they will give 
is answered ? A. Always, sir. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. They are considered as holding their pew after it is as- 
signed to them, whether they state the amount they will pay 
or not ? A. Yes ; I have never known of any other arrange- 
ment as to subscriptions. 

Q. Have you ever seen any plan of the pews in existence or 
in use in the church with prices marked upon it? A. I never 
have seen a map of that kind ; I have seen all the maps from 



700 



} 7 ear to year, but I have never seen any with figures except the 
number of the pew, which is in print. 

Q. You don't know of any such map? A. No, sir; I have 
the same map that was carried over from year to year — the 
same identical map. 

Q. The party who has the pew, does he have the selection 
of it, or is the pew selected by the committee ? A. The party 
himself generally has selected his pew or the location ; the 
general question is, what part of the house do you prefer ? 
some say the gallery ; some say the seats that are called the 
balcony ; some the flat, and some say they are hard of hear- 
ing and want to be near the pastor's voice -near the plat- 
form ; when they have thus expressed their preferences as to 
the location, if there is any vacant pew there it' is assigned to 
them. 

Q. They make a selection of the pew themselves? A. Of 
the location always, in all cases. 

Q. According to their pleasure ? A. Yes. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. Have you ever known an instance in that church where 
any one was ejected from their pew because he could not pay? 
A. I never heard of such a case until this trial. 
Cross-examined by Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. How long have you been a Trustee ? A. A year the 22d 
of April. 

Q. You were not Trustee when Mr. Hathaway was the 
financial agent of the church ? A. No, sir ; I was elder at 
that time. 

Q. Were you familiar with the proceedings of the Trustees 
at that time before you became a member? A. I was familiar 
only in this respect ; with the assignment of pews ; I went 
there and observed their general plan. 

Q. How long have you been on the committee for assign- 
ment of pews? A. Only a year ; since I have been Trustee. 

Q. How can you say that you have seen all the diagrams 
which have been used by the Trustees from year to year when 
you have only been on the Committee and member of the 
Board of Trustees for a year? A. Because I have looked 
after my own pew during the time I have been connected with 



701 



the church, some six or seven years ; I went to the church 
when the assignment of pews was made to look after the 
assignment of my own pew, and the diagrams were laid upon 
the table, so that they could be seen and examined. 

Q. Was it not possible for the Trustees to have diagrams 
with the price fixed to each pew without your seeing it? A* 
I think it hardly possible, because I was at Mr. Hathaway's 
house at the assignment there, and I noticed then the same 
plain plan, simple figures at the end of the paper for the 
number of the pews, that I had always noticed ; if they had 
anything like a new one I should certainly have observed it. 

Q. But you were not an officer or member of the Board 
then? A. I was not a member of the Board of Trustees, but 
I went there on my own business in regard to the reassign- 
ment of my pew, and the plan was laid before us. 

Q. You only seen these diagrams, so far as you had to do 
with them, in connection with the assignment of your pew ? 
A. Up to the time I became Trustee. 

Q. Then it is possible that Mr. Hathaway's plan, so far as 
you are concerned, may have had the prices fixed to the pew ? 
A. It is hardly possible, I think. 

Q. Can you say that it had not ? A. I cannot swear that it 
had not. 

Q. Then it may have had the prices of the pews affixed ? 
A. Possibly so. 

Q. You had nothing to do with the practical work of as- 
signing pews until you became a member of the Board of 
Trustees and a member of the Committee on Pews ? A. I 
had no authority to do anything of that kind ; I did not as- 
sign the pews. 

Q. Nor you didn't act as one of the members of the Board 
of Trustees ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you undertake to say that you have seen all the dia- 
grams that have been in use since you have become a member 
of the Board of Trustees, a year ago ? A. I saw the diagrams 
that were in use from year to year. 

Q. But you don't know that the Trustees who served pre- 
vious to you might not have had these diagrams? I don't 
know what the Trustees had out of sight, but those diagrams, 



702 



if there were such, were not in use ; the diagrams that I saw 
from year to year had no figures upon them at all except the 
number of the pews. 

Q. Have you never known such influence to be brought to 
bear upon a person in the congregation, that if he did not pay 
<a certain amount he could not hold his pew? A. No, sir ; I 
don't think that has ever been done at all ; I never heard of 
such a thing. 

Q. You have never heard of an instance of a person vacat- 
ing a pew in one part of the house and moving to another, 
because he was not able to pay the rent ? A. I have heard 
of pewholders moving in that way; they have been requested 
to do so sometimes by the Board of Trustees, but not by de- 
mand, and the parties have consented. 

Q. And that request was made because they didn't pay as 
much as the Trustees thought they ought to pay ? A. I don't 
know exactly as that w r as the reason ; there have been occa- 
sions, as I say, when they have changed their pews ; for in- 
stance, if a man who was paying nothing or very little for a 
pew, who held a very eligible one, and there was a person who 
was willing to pay a large or fair price for it, the Board of 
Trustees in such instances requested the pewholders to change 
their pews, and have assigned them pews in other portions of 
the house, but it has always been in the form of a request 
and never in the form of a demand. 

Q. If there were many instances of that kind it would be 
general, and would have the same effect as renting pews - one 
pew-holder leaving one part of the house and going to another 
because he did not pay as much as the Trustees thought tie 
ought to pay ; if these changes had been made frequently they 
would have been general, would they not ? A. I never heard 
of but one case of that kind, I think. 

Q. You have only been connected with the Board of Trus- 
tees for a year ? A. Yes; but I have been a member of the 
church and intimately connected with its affairs for six or 
seven years. 

Q, But you have been a Trustee but for one year only ? 
A. Yes, sir ; that is all. 



703 



By Mr. Millaed : 

Q. Was it understood by the parties who took the seats 
that if persons were willing to pay a higher price that they 
would consent to change? A. There was no agreement to 
change without their consent. 
By Mr. Hathaway : 

Q. There is one answer that you gave I do not think you 
intended to give; you said you had the identical map I had ? 
A. I could not say what the other Trustees had previously. 

Q. I used about half a dozen myself? A. Yes, they are 
liable to get worn out ; the one I saw at your house had no 
figures on though. 

Q. You don't pretend that you have that same one now in 
your possession V A. No, I don't say anything about that 
same one ; I saw one used the previous year by the Board of 
Trustees. 

CHARLES M. NICHOLS. 
At the close of Mr. Nichols' examination the counsel for the 
defence announced that they rested their case at this point. 

Rev. Chas. Wood was then recalled and testified as follows : 
Examined by Dr. McClelland : 

Q. As I understood your testimony, though I have not read 
it since, you include me among those to wdiom you made cer- 
tain statements concerning brother Crosby ; am I correct in 
that inference? was I among those to whom you made certain 
statements concerning brother Crosby ? 

The Witness — I think the question put to me in a general 
way was whether I had spoken to anybody about Mr. Crosby, 
and I replied, yes ; you asked what persons I had spoken to ; 
I don't know whether there was any definite allusion to any 
particular conversation about the matter in general; I so 
understood it and I answered, yes. 

Q. Did you tell me, at any time, that Mr. Crosby called Dr. 
Talmage a scoundrel and a liar ? A. I said it in your pres- 
ence and in the presence of Dr. Van Dyke, and in the preseuce 
probably, of y#ffr son ; the statement was simply this : I ques- 
tioned the propriety of a man acting as the chief prosecutor in 
this case who was vulnerable to harshness and censoriousness ; 
I then said that he had declared that Dr. Talmage was a liar 
and a scoundrel, and you made a reply to it yourself. 



704 



Q. Did you tell me that you heard him say so ? A. Yes. 

Q. Where was that statement made ? A. It was made at 
the Tract House in New York, outside of the committee room. 

Q. Was it in a meeting ? A. No, sir ; it was not in a meeting ; 
it was made at the head of the stairs. 

Q. Was there any statement made on the stairway? A. 
Perhaps there was. 

Q. Were there many persons present ? A. Dr. Yan Dyke 
was present, and Mr. Chandler, and your son was present ; it 
was just at the head of the stairs. 

Q. What time of the day was it? A. I wish to say to this 
court that I had reason to believe that I would be called to 
account for that statement, and I took my note book and jot- 
ted it down at the time. 

Q. What time of day was it ? A. It was about 3 o'clock, I 
think in the afternoon. 

Q. Was it at the adjournment of a certain meeting ; had the 
meeting to which you refer adjourned ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How did we meet? A. I shall decline to answer that 
question. 

Q. Did you make that statement to me or any similar state- 
ment to me, in any regular stated meeting? A. I have made 
a similar statement myself in such a meeting. 

Q. In my presence? A. I don't remember exactly whether 
you were present at the time or not. 

Q. Can you now state here under oath, if } r ou made a simi- 
lar statement about Brother Crosby to me, in any regular 
meeting? A. I would not like to swear that I made the re- 
mark to you personally ; I think you were present at the meet- 
ing when I made the statement. 

Q. Can you here state that you communicated anything to 
me under the seal of confidence, which you say I have broken? 
A. I considered that it was under the seal of confidence, cer- 
tainly not to be told to an outsider ; I considered that it was 
under the seal of a confidential relationship existing between 
us ; I don't know why the seal was broken. 

Q. You say that it was in the presence of persons that were 
not members of any association ? A. Except your son, the 
others were members. 



705 



Q. You say that I have broken confidence by making that 
statement? 

The Moderator— Was that stated by the witness ? 

Dr. McClelland — The witness has stated that I had broken 
the seal of confidence ; he says, that I made a statement which 
I deny in toto, and I deny that I divulged what he said in that 
conversation to any living being. 

The Witness — I shall refuse to answer unless I am allowed 
to answer in my own way. 

Dr. McClelland — That is what I want you to do ; we want 
to get at the truth. 

The Witness —Then I will make my statement ; I made the 
statement that Mr. Crosby was vulnerable, and I gave my rea- 
sons for so stating ; after the committee w T as appointed Mr. 
Crosby came to see me himself in reference to my statement ; 
I admitted that I had said it, and I said to him that I had 
made such a charge against him, but that I had made it under 
the seal of a confidential relationship, because I knew I had 
never used the word vulnerable in reference to him up to that 
time, except in your presence, and in the presence of Dr. Yan 
Dyke, and in the presence of Mr. Chandler, and knowing that 
I had made a statement only to you, I came to the conclusion, 
in my own mind, that either you or Dr. Yan Dyke had told it. 

Q. That is the only statement you made where you used the 
word vulnerable ? A. Yes. 

Q. Where was that word uttered ? A. It was uttered at the 
head of the stairs. 

Q. In any meeting? A. No; the meeting was adjourned; 
I think that they are mixing up matters a little; according to 
the best recollection of my testimony, the two things were en- 
tirely separate ; one question had reference to the fact as to 
whether I had spoken on this general subject, and I replied, 
yes; and I remember distinctly that I testified to the fact 
that the seal of confidential relationship had been broken 
in making certain other communications ; I think they are 
now mixing the two things up. 
By Dr. Yan Dxke: 

Q. I will ask you this question : did you ever state in my 
presence, or in my hearing, that Mr. Crosby had said to you 
89 



706 



that Dr. Talmage was a liar and a scoundrel ? A. I said it in 
your presence at the head of the stairs, when you were coming 
from the committee room out of the Tract House. 

Q. Did you not call at my study, soon after that, in Brook- 
lyn, here ? A. No, sir ; I have not been to your study since 
that time. 

Q. When was the last time that you were at my study ? A. 
I don't remember ; but I have not been there since that time. 

Q. Haven't you been in my study since the first of January ? 
A. This was since the first of January. 

Q. Haven't you been in my study since that time ? A. I 
don't remember ; I have not been there since this prosecution 
commenced, I am certain. 

Dr. Van Dyke — I ask the counsel for the prosecution to 
recall me. 

By Dr. McClelland : 

Q. In reference to your memory, haven't you frequently 
told me that it was exceedingly treacherous ? A. My answer 
to that question is, that I have told you that my memory was 
treacherous in reference to names and dates ; I have told you 
also that at times I felt so jaded and worn in my peculiar mis- 
sion work, so jaded in mind and body, that I can't remember 
what I have read in a previous page ; these are the peculiari- 
ties in which my memory is treacherous ; I have admitted to 
you that my memory is feeble upon those points, and you will 
acknowledge a note book, in which I jot down what I deem of 
importance, is a very good substitute for a poor memory. 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. In your direct-examination, you testified to an interview 
on the cars coming down the " Hudson River Railroad," be- 
tween yourself a and myself, and you mention only one fact in 
regard to that conversation ; can you remember anything fur- 
ther now of what passed between us ? A. The substance of 
the conversation in reference to the point in which we are in- 
terested is simply this 

The Moderator (interrupting) — You have already asked that 
question, and gone over it on cross-examination. 

Q. How long after that conversation did you make this note 
in your note book ? A. After I got home ; the next day I 
think it was. 



707 



Q. Are you perfectly certain that I did not say that if all 
those stories about Dr. Talmage were true, he must be a liar 
and a scoundrel ? A. I don't know ; I can't say positively just 
whether you put it in that form or not ; to the best of my re- 
collection at the time I made the note of it, you said he either 
was or you believed him to be ; I think that these statements 
were based on certain rumors connected with the Christian at 
Work. 

Q. Did I say positively, that I believed those rumors to be 
true ? A. I think you did. 

Q. Are you sure ? A. I think you did. 

Q. Are you sure ? A. I am as sure as it is possible for a 
man to be. 

Q. Did you put that down in your book ? A. I did. 

Q. That I said I believed the rumors ? A. That he either 
was, or you believed him to be a liar or a scoundrel. 

Q. I ask you whether you know, or are sure that I told you 
that I believed the rumors that were floating against Dr. Tal- 
mage? A. I don't know that you said to me that you believed 
the rumors, but I am pretty certain that you said the other 
thing ; I took it for granted that you did believe it. 

Q. In regard to the other conversation to which you have 
testified, I would ask, in the first place, whether I said that in 
hypothesis or in a conditional statement, that I would not be- 
lieve the elders of the First Presbyterian Church under oath ? 
A. I so understood you to say that. 
By Dr. McClelland : 

Q. How long after that conversation did you make a note of 
it in your note book ? A. I don't remember exactly ; either 
that evening I made it or the next day. 

CHARLES WOOD. 

At the close of Mr. Wood's examination Rev. A. Crosby was 
recalled, and testified as follows : 
Examined by Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. Do you now recollect the conversation on the cars with 
Mr. Wood, in the course of which he says that you called Mr. 
Talmage a liar and a scoundrel ? A. Yes, I have thought over 
that conversation, and I recollect it ; I will only go into it so 
far as it bears upon this point, although I might give details in 



708 



regard to it further; various subjects of conversation came 
up in the course of our ride; and among others the stories that 
were floating about concerning Dr. Talmage ; he talked about 
them, and I expressed my disgust and regret at those stories 
as being againsfc one of our ministers ; I expressed my abhor- 
rence of such stories against a man standing so high and 
prominently in the church, and I said that if those stories 
were true, that Mr. Talmage was a liar and a scoundrel ; and 
in that I suppose every person would agree with me, if they 
were true. 

Q. You are sure you used that condition? A. I am perfectly 
confident, for I know just what the state of my mind was in 
regard to the whole matter at that time. 

Q. Do you recollect the conversation in the lecture room of 
your church, with Mr. Wood, in which you said you would not 
believe the elders of the First Presbyterian Church on oath ? 
A. I remember the occasion, and I have, in various ways, re- 
freshed my memory about it ; the subject of the conversation 
was the resignation of the Rev. Dr. Seaver, who was a warm 
personal friend of mine, with whom I was in very close inter- 
course; Dr. Seaver had told me certain circumstances con- 
nected with his leaving, and given me facts which I fully be- 
lieved ; Mr. Wood brought some statements from the elders, 
in conflict with what Dr. Seaver had told me ; I stood by Dr. 
Seaver ; I remember nothing of the words which he has quot- 
ed from his notebook ; I do not remember using the words 
" under oath " in any connection; but I remember expressly 
and definitely stating to Mr. Wood, more than once and in an 
emphatic tone, that I did not charge the elders of the First 
Presbyterian Church with any intention to do 'injustice to Dr. 
Seaver ; when Mr. Wood brought statements conflicting with 
those of Dr. Seaver, I said that I could not help that — that I 
believed Dr. Seaver ; it was in relation to the opposition of 
these men to Dr. Seaver, that I might have used the expres- 
sion in a hypothetical case entirely, as I since have been told 
by those who were very deeply interested in the thing, was 
just such expression as any man or Christian brother might 
use. 

Q. Did you ever say that you wanted or intended to drive 



709 



Br. Talmage out of the Presbytery, or anything to that effect j 
to his nephew ? A. I did not ; I called on his nephew, and 
asked him for information concerning what I had heard that 
he had said about his uncle; he gave me information freely 
and cheerfully, and afterwards we had a talk in the outer of- 
fice : it was in his private office, and the door was shut, where 
he gave me the information; when we came out, we had a more 
spirited talk ; he insisted from the very first that he would not 
give any evidence ; I told him that I honored him for his re- 
luctance to do so ; I then said to him that if Dr. Talmage was 
guilty of these charges, he ought to leave the Presbytery, or 
something of that kind ; but I never expressed the opinion to 
him that I believed he was guilty, nor did I say that it was 
my intention or purpose to drive Dr. Talmage out of the Pres- 
bytery or out of Brooklyn. 

Q. Did you ever state words to that effect to any person ? 
A. Not to my knowledge. 
Gross-examined by Dr. Spear : 

Q. In regard to the expression concerning the officers of the 
First Presbyterian Church, you have stated under what cir- 
cumstan3es you used that expression ? A. I do not remem- 
ber the expression ; all I remember is that when these state- 
ments were brought, conflicting with Dr. Seaver's statement, 
I preferred to accept Dr. Seaver's ; I simply don't remember 
the use of the expressson ; if I did use it, it was in the connec- 
tion which I have just stated. 

Q. Haven't you taken the position, in regard to Dr. Tal- 
mage, both before and since this trial, that it was his duty to 
correct false statements made in regard to him in the news- 
papers. A. No ; I do not think that is the position I have 
taken; I think the position I have maintained in regard to it 
is that when statements which were derogatory to other men 
were put in his mouth, and were sent throughout the country, 
it was his duty to correct them. 

Q. Have you seen the open letter of Daniel Talmage, ad- 
dressed to you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I want to read that open letter as a part of my ques- 
tion ? A. Is there any relevancy in this ? 

Q. Have you seen his open letter ? A. I do not see the rel- 
evancy of that question ; I refuse to answer. 



710 



Q. Have you seen and read that letter ? A. I refuse to give 
any further answer ; I withdraw my objection, and am willing 
that you should read that letter, and amVilling to answer any 
question in regard to it. 

Q. There are misstatements in that letter ? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you taken the pains to correct them ? A. I have, 
in certain particulars ; I have just now refuted one of them. 

Q. Have you taken the pains to correct the statements pub- 
licly? A. I don't think that there are any statements that 
need any correction particularly. 

Q. Have you done so ? A. No. sir ; not in all instances. 

Q. Did these six contumacious witnesses spoken of in this 
letter promise to make their statements as witnesses on the 
trial ? A. No, sir ; I think not. 

Q. Didn't Mr. Coggswell, Mr. Pierson, Mr. Sillcocks, and 
Daniel Tain: age inform you that they would not give any evi- 
dence which would tend against Dr. Taltnage, or words to that 
effect? A. No, sir. 

Q. They said no such thing to you ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did they not tell you that they would not, under any cir- 
cumstances, appear against Dr. Talmage? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you ever have a conference with Mr. Hubbs and 
John R Talmage ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you never have any conferences with them ? A. 
None, whatever. 

Q. Why did you cite them as witnesses against Dr. Tal- 
mage ? A. Because I understood they were in possession of 
facts which would bear upon the truth in this case. 

Q. Why did you cite as witnesses against Dr. Talmage Fred- 
erick Baker and C. M. Nichols, when you had no conference 
with them and did not know what they would testify to ? A. 
Because I supposed they were in possession of facts which 
would bear upon the truth in this case. 

Q. What led you to that supposition ? A. I do not remem- 
ber ; but we had the information at the committee, and we 
were authorized to cite them ; it was not myself ; it was the 
committee ; we discussed all these names and read them over. 

Q. Who procured these names ? A. I don't remember ; 
they came in various ways ; I could not give you all the par- 
ticulars. 



711 



Q. Did you find the names? A. No, sir; not all of them ; 
I remember one member of the committee came to me one 
morning and spoke to me and said, " Yon had better see this 
man, and find out if he is familiar with, the facts." 

Q. Did Alexander Pierson promise that he would be present 
as a witness? A. I cannot say he promised in so many 
words, and I understood that he acquiesced when I said to 
him, after he gave me information, and at some length, in his 
store, and objected to coming, " If you are aware of these 
facts, or have knowledge of facts which impeach the sincerity 
of Dr. Talmage, you are responsible and ought to stand to 
your word." 

Q. Did he tell you definitely that he did not believe in the 
trial, and would not appear at all as a witness ? A. He did 
afterwards — after he had been cited. 

Q. Did you have any interview" with Daniel Talmage in re- 
gard to Dr. Talmage, at 92 Wall street ? Yes ; I think I did. 

Q. Didn't Daniel Talmage, at that interview, reprove you, 
and say that he thought you might be engaged in better busi- 
ness ? A. I don't remember of his reproving me ; he said that 
I might be engaged in better business, or something of the 
kind, in his peculiar style ; I have known Daniel Talmage for 
a great while ; he was a classmate of mine in college. 

Q. Did Daniel Talmage, at that interview, make this remark : 
" It seems to me, the way you have acted, you want to drive 
Dr. Talmage out of the Presbytery ;" and did you not reply, 
" That is just what we want ?" A. No, sir ; I don't think that 
I used any such language. 

Q. You are confident that you did not use such words ? A. 
I have stated what I remember about that, and I cling to that 
statement. 

Q. Did you inform Dr. McClelland, your colleague on the 
Investigating Committee, of the settlement in the Brooklyn 
Tabernacle on January 1^5, 1876 ? A. Eeally, I cannot remem- 
ber ; all the papers were there in the hands of the committee, 
and how far the different members of the committee examined 
them I don't know ; I don't know myself just where I learned 
the full details ; I don't think I got the full details until after 
I was appointed prosecutor; we got the general details of 



712 



these matters as they came to us, upon which we based our 
report. 

Q. When did you get your first knowledge on the subject, 
and where ? A. My first knowledge in regard to what ? 

Q. In regard to the settlement? A. I don't remember. 

Q. Don't you know from whom you got it ? A. I suppose 
I got it from Mr. Hathaway, with the papers ; in fact, I 
don't know whether the papers really came into my hands be- 
fore Mr. McCullagh and myself were appointed prosecutors ; I 
am not sure but what he knew it before I did. 

Q. You say you read the open letter of Daniel Talmage ; 
was it true or false? A. Yes, and no. 

Q. What part of it was true ? A. I could not tell you that ; 
I did not commit it to memory. 

Q. What part of it was false ? A. I could not tell you ; I 
have already stated some things that were misrepresented ; I 
don't believe intentionally ; but Dan. Talmage was a very ex- 
citable fellow, and he was under a good deal of excitement 
that day. 

Redirect by Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. I will ask you to give us the conversation which occurred 
between you and Mr. Talmage, at 92 Wall street ? A. I called 
at 92 Wall street; Mr. Talmage was not in his office; I sat 
down and waited for him ; that was after I was appointed 
Chairman of the committee; when Mr. Talmage came in I said, 
" Well, Dan, I don't know whether you look upon me as an 
enemy or friend ;" he said, " Come in," and we went in his office 
and shut the door ; after we got in there I said, " I have come 
for information in regard to matters which I think you know 
about concerning the telegrams ; I have heard you said so and 
so ; will you tell me anything about it?" then he sat down and 
told me ; he told me about the meeting of the Board of Trus- 
tees at which he was present, when the subject of raising the 
debt was considered ; he said that at that meeting his uncle 
turned — Mr. Talmage told me that his uncle turned to him 
at that meeting, and asked him what he and his brother would 
give, and he mentioned a sum, I believe it was $2,000, though 
I will not be positive about the figures ; then after a while, his 
uncle asked where John was, and he told him he would not 



713 



tell him, because John had gone away for his health, and 'he 
told him he would not have him troubled by anything of the 
kind ; but the next morning, when he went to his uncle's house 
he told his uncle, and his uncle asked him if he would tele- 
graph to John ; after some persuasion, he consented to do so ; 
that was on the 29th of January ; ho told me that he did tel- 
egraph carefully to his brother, and he sent a boy for his letter 
book so that I might read the copy of the telegram, that he 
sent to his brother, and gave me the date ; it was January 
29 ; I took it down on my note book ; he then told me that 
his uncle, when he learned the answer that John had sent to 
that telegram, which was, that he would give $2,500, but would 
not go above that in his subscription — then urged him to give 
him their names for the amount, $5,000 ; I asked him what he 
said to his uncle, and he replied that he said : " Uncle, that is 
too thin;" there was some further conversation; and I would 
state, in justice to Mr. Daniel Talmage, that he said : "Well, 
Uncle Talmage is not so bad a man after all, as you are trying 
to make him out ;" he defended his uncle ; I asked why he did 
not accede to his proposition ; he said, " Well, I knew that we 
would have to pay it ourselves ;" I said, "That is not very com- 
plimentary to yonr uncle ; he says, " Oh, I don't mean that ; he 
would have been willing enough to pay it, and would have paid 
it himself, no doubt ; but we would not have wanted our name 
to go to that subscription unless we paid it ourselves;" he said 
that he would not go against his father's brother ; he stood up 
for his uncle; but he gave me information, and gave me facts 
upon which my questions are based; all the facts upon which 
my opening was based in regard to the matter of this sub- 
scription came from Dan Talmage's own lips ; but as I said 
before, he defended his uncle, and said he would not come 
and testify ; that was the substance of the interview. 
Cross-examined by Mr. Millakd : 

Q. You went to him with a view of his being a witness in 
this case ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you think it proper, in approaching him for that 
purpose, to begin by telling him that the thing was dishonor- 
able ? A. I did not begin by telling him that it was dishonor- 
able. 

90 



714 



Q. Did you think it was a proper thing for the counsel in 
this case to go to a witness and make the impression upon 
him that the thing was dishonorable ? A. I did not so. 

Q. Didn't you tell him that you considered it a dishonest 
thing? A. He told me that his uncle wanted him to put his 
nain6 to a certain amount, and he would not do it ; then I 
asked him why, and he told me that he knew be would have to 
pay it ; I misunderstood his remark ; thinking that he meant 
his uncle would not pay it, I said that was not very compli- 
mentary to him, and he said, "Oh, I did not mean that ; uncle 
would have paid it, but I would not let him pay it ; " then he 
said that his uucle wanted his name to go down for that 
amount ; then I said, " Well, that means you think it would be 
dishonorable in Dr. T aim age to put down your name for 
$5,000, and you only pay $2,500. 
By Mr. Wood : 

Q. Did you not visit nry house after your appointment on 
the committee ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did I not there first tell you what I heard you say on 
the Hudson river ? A. I don't know that you used the very 
words ; you used very strong language ; something to that 
effect. 

Q. Did you not there tell me that some one told you that I 
said that you were vulnerable ? A.I did. 

Q. Will you state who it was that told you? A. I have 
never been able to recollect. 

Q. I used that word vulnerable onlv in the presence of the 
persons I have mentioned ? A. The person who told me said 
that he was passing down stairs and overheard what you said. 

Q, Were you standing at the head of the hall ? A. This 
pei son was passing down, and heard yon make this remark. 

" I have read my evidence as recorded above, and find it 
correct." 

AKTHUR CROSBY. 

At the close of Rev. Mr. Crosby's examination, Rev. H. J. 
Van Dyke, D. D., was recalled, and testified as follows : 
Examined by Mr. Crosby. 

Q. Did the Rev. Mr. W'ood ever tell you that I had said 
that Dr. Talmage was a liar and a scoundrel ? A. No, sir ; I 
never heard any such words from Mr. Wood's lips in my life. 



715 



Q. Did Mr. Wood ever tell you directly that I was a vul- 
nerable man ? A. No, sir, he never told me directly ; but I 
will tell you the circumstances : After the meeting in the com- 
mittee room of the Tract House in New York had been dis- 
solved, having been detained for ten minutes or so on business, 
I passed out of the committee rooms and passed rapidly down 
stairs; as I passed down, I heard Mr. Wood's voice talking 
very loud — so loud that you could hear him all over the build- 
ing ; I did not take notice whether auybody was listening to 
him or not ; I certainly heard him say, " Crosby is a very 
vulnerable man ; " so, when I met Mr. Crosby a day or two 
afterwards, I said, " You had better go down and see Mr. 
Wood, for he thinks you are a vulnerable man ;" but wherein 
he considered him vulnerable, I never had the least apprehen- 
sion until his testimony was given in this place ; the reason 
why I asked to come back on the stand was that I might give 
my testimony in regard to that interview about which Mr. 
Wood has spoken. 
Gross-examined by Dr. Spear : 

Q. Do you remember whether you ever said to any member 
of the Brooklyn Presbytery about the time of the " Augus- 
tine " letter, that Dr. Talmage was a buffoon ? A. I have no 
recollection of any such statement ; I might have said so. 

Q. Do you recollect saying to any member of the Brooklyn 
Presbytery, about that time, that Dr. Talmage was not fit to be 
in the Presbyterian Church? A. I have already answered 
that question on my previous examination. 

Q. I repeat the question now ? A. And I repeat my an- 
swer. 

Q. Do you recollect that language ? A. No, sir ; I do not 
recollect that language ; I don't know that I used those very 
words; but I have long been of the opinion that Dr. Talmage 
should not belong to the Presbyterian Church ; that was un- 
comfortable to him and uncomfortable to the Presbytery ; it is 
very likely that I may have expressed myself in some such 
way as that ; but I don't remember using any such language as 
you quote. 

Q. Do you recollect, in the same conversation, saying that 
the Tabernacle was a rotten, sinking concern ? A. No, sir ; I 



716 



have no recollection of that ; but I long had the impression 
that there was something rotten in the kingdom of Denmark* 
and I may have expressed myself to that effect. 

Q. Do you recollect saying to any member of the Brooklyn 
Presbytery, about that time, in the same conversation, that the 
Tabernacle was indebted in the sum of over $100,000? A. I 
recollect saying that at that time it was in debt over $100,000 ; 
I do not recollect the conversation, but I have said a great 
many times that it was in debt over $100,000. 

Q. You have kept these four questions in mind? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you recollect using the words that T have asked you 
about? A. No, sir; I do not. 

Q. Now, I ask you direct, do you recollect saying those 
things to me? A. No, sir; I do not recollect having a conver- 
sation with Dr. Spear upon the subject. 

Q. Don't you remember a conversation that yon had with 
me in regard to Dr. Talmage? A. No, sir, I do not ; I recol- 
lect a conversation with you at the time that article appeared* 
because it was out of that conversation with you that the article 
grew entirely. 

Q. Do you recollect that I was rather severe at that time on 
the Tabernacle ? A. I recollect your saying something about 
Dr. Talmage's methods ; I don't remember the conversation ; it 
has entirely passed out of my mind, if we had any such con- 
versation ; I never professed to be a standard of memory. 

Q. How do you make up the $100,000? A. When Dr. Tal- 
mage was called to the Central Presbyterian Church, after the 
resignation of Dr. Rockwell, there was a mortgage of $20,000 
upon it, and subsequently there was another mortgage of 
$15,000, which mortgage was foreclosed during the Gen- 
eral Assembly ; that made $35,000 on the old brick 
building, which was afterwards called the Lay College ; 
there was a mortgage debt of $35,000 on the new Tabernacle, 
and bonds to the amount of $35,000, making in all $105,000 ; 
the proof that up to the last moment there never was but one 
corporation there responsible for debts is in two facts, one, 
when the effort was made to ra : se the debt of the Tabernacle 
church, it was stated that there was $70,< 00 of indebtedness 
on the Tabernacle, and a contingency of $3,000 more for a de- 



71T 



ficiency to pay up a mortgage on the Lay College ; there was 
a negotiation for the sale of the Lay College, there was a 
mortgage of $20,000 upon it and $17,000 was paid, which left 
$3,000 ; the other proof is the printed statement, in which the 
interest on the debt is put down in one item, showing that it 
was held by the same corporation, that the same corporation 
was responsible for the debts of both buildings. 

Q. That is all you know about that ? A. I know more than 
that; but I think that is sufficient; I know the Presbytery 
appointed a committee to inquire into the Schermerhorn 
street property, and that committee reported that there was 
only one corporation there ; that the transfer from one to the 
other was simply a matter of business, but that the property 
was held by the same tenure ; that was perfectly satisfactory 
to the committee. 

Q. I hold in my hand a deed designating a separate corpora- 
tion, dated January, 1872, that shows that Dr. Talmage was 
entirely mistaken as to that fact? A. The facts are there to 
be rid of the best way they can be ; the corporation pays the 
interest on the debt, and is liable for the deficit on the 
mortgage on the Lay College building, being the difference be- 
tween $17,000 and $20,000 ; and besides that the committee of 
the Presbytery appointed to investigate the matter found that 
the property was held under one tenure or one legal corpora- 
tion. 

Mr. Crosby — I move you, sir, that the whole of Mr. Howard's 
affidavit, which was received as a letter, be stricken out from 
the records for the following reasons : in the first place, the 
affidavit is dated March 21, and } T et the counsel on the other 
side, in making his opening speech for the defence, said that 
he would put General Howard upon the stand, and that he 
would be subject to our examination. 

Mr. Millard — I did not make that statement ; I said that 
the testimony of General Howard would be brought in here. 

Mr. Crosby — I think I am correct in what I say ; however, I 
will defer my argument upon that point till I can refer to the 
record ; but apart from that entirely, it seems to me that it was 
a direct violation of the law of our book that that testimony 
was received here. 



718 



" I have read the record of my testimony contained in this 
folio and find it to be correct." 

HENKY J. VAN DYKE. 

Presbytery adjourned. 

J. M. GEEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



April 25th, 1879. 

Presbytery met April 25th, at 3 p. m. 

Permission was granted to the counsel for the defence to call 
as witnesses Mr. Craske and Mr. C. C. Shelley. 

Mr. C. C. Shelley was then called, and, being duly sworn, tes- 
tified as follows : 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. What is your business ? A. Printing. 

Q. Where is your place of business? A. Now Nos. 2 and 3 
College place. 

Q. Where was it in 1876 ? A. No. 68 Barclay street. 

Q. Was that near the office of the Christian at Work ? A. I 
think it was. 

Q. Did you ever have come into your office an advertisement 
from the Advance ? A. I did. 

Q. When ? A. On Saturday October 7th, 1876. 

Q. Who brought it ? A. General Howard. 

Q. Now w T ill you begin at that point, and, just in your own 
way, give us what you did in and about that advertisement? 
A. I arrived at my office, I think, about 9 o' cluck on Saturday, 
October 7th ; the superintendent stated to me that General 
Howard had been there with au advertisement ; I asked to look 
at it ; after looking at it 1 think I told him that it w*as all 
right, to go ahead with it ; and the matter was placed in type 
during the day ; proof w r as taken away by General Howard, 
and proof returned the next morning, I think. 

Q. You mean Sunday morning? A. No ; the next working 
dav, that is Monday ; during Monday, in the afternoon, a mes- 
sage came to change the whole thing ; the whole matter was 
re-set, or changed, or altered, as it may be called. 

Q. What time Monday afternoon was that ? A. That was 
in the latter part of the afternoon, I should judge round from 



719 



3 to 4 o'clock ; and the matter was placed in type and two 
papier niache ca-ts made, one blocked and the other unblock- 
ed, as we call it ; that was sent to the foundery at about 5 
o'clock. 

Q. Whose foundery? A. Mr. Craske's; the boy was sent 
with it, and I gave orders to the boy to wait for it, and not to 
leave until he got it, which I believe the boy did ; it was 
brought back to the office and taken away by the messenger of 
General Howard. 

Q. About w T hat hour did he take it ? A. At about six o'clock. 

Q. That is the whole history, so far as you remember ? A. 
That is about the whole history. 
Cross-exa7rrined by Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Did you have any conversation with Dr. Talmage on 
Monday, October 9th, 1876 ? A. My recollection is that I did. 

Q. At what time on that day did you see Dr. Talmage, or 
talk with him? A. During the afternoon; I am uncertain 
about the time ; I am a pretty busy man, Mr. Crosby, and 
have a good deal to think of ; it strikes me that it was some- 
where around three o'clock — three or four o'clock, I think. 

Q. Do you feel confident that it was not earlier than three 
o'clock ? A. I am very confident, so far as I can be under the 
circumstances. 

Q. Was this advertisement of the Advance talked about be- 
tween you and Dr. Talmage ? A. No, sir ; I had no communi- 
cation with Dr. Talmage about the advertisement. 

Q. You did not notify him of your getting up the advertise- 
ment ? A. Not to my remembrance. 

Q. You said that a message was brought to your place to 
have this advertisement changed, on Monday ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who brought that message? A. General Howard. 

Q. Himself ? A. I think it was General Howard himself. 

Q. Do you recollect distinctly the time at which he brought 
that message ? A. No, sir ; I don't recollect distinctly ; I have 
to depend sometimes for these things upon the memory of 
those that are connected Avith me. 

Q. You don't remember the time yourself ? A. That General 
Howard brought it? 

Q. Yes ? A. No ; not distinctly— not myself ; I know it was 
in the afternoon. 



720 



Q. So far as jour recollection goes it may have been befort 
two o'clock ? A. No, sir ; I am confident of that by several 

circumstances that I can give you. 

Q. I would like to hear them ; I would like to have the basis 
of your memory clearly shown — how you know it was after two 
o'clock. A. Because in the first place it must have been late 
in the afternoon, from the fact that we ran on it three or four 
hands, and every effort was made, and every inducement made 
to get it out ; and I do not generally take hold of anything 
myself, unless there is something particular about it, or it hss 
got to be done in a certain time ; and so I am satisfied from 
that fact alone that it came in late in the afternoon ; that is 
one thing about it. 

Q. How long were you working on it ? A. I judge about 
an hour; that is a question which involves two answers; 
about five hours. 

Q. Altogether ? A. Yes, sir ; altogether. 

Working about four hours on it on Saturday ? A. Yes, 

sir. 

Q. And it took you about an hour to alter it? A. Yes, an 
hour to alter it. 

Q. What alterations were made ? A. Just enough to make 
double price. 

Q. State what they were? A. About all rearranged, I 
judge ; the price of composition was $3, and the change $3, 
evidently showing a full change. 

Q. Did the original advertisement, as it came, contain the 
wording, ' Dr. Talmage's Announcement?" A. I cannot re- 
member. 

Q. Could you remember, if I showed you the advertisement, 
any of the changes made ? A. No, sir ; I could not do that ; I 
would hardly recollect ten minutes afterwards any change that 
was made in my office. 

Q. You were personally a friend of Dr. Talmage at that 
time ? A. I hope I was. 

Q. -This advertisement was interesting to you — more so than 
an ordinary business transaction ? A. No, sir, not interesting 
to me ; it was a mere matter of dollars and cents to me. 

Q. Did the advertisement contain anything as it came to 



721 



you — nothing about Dr. Talmage ? A. I cannot say as to that ; 
it is not in my recollection. 

Q. You do not remember noticing that ; that there was any- 
thing about Dr. Talmage in the first one? A. I do not. 

Q. And you have forgotten entirely the nature of the change ? 
A. I have forgotten what the change was ; I simply know from 
reference to my books in the matter. 

Q. Did you see General Howard when he came with the 
order to change the advertisement? A. Well, I am not cer- 
tain about that ; I know General Howard was there. 

Q. On that Monday ? Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you have any conversation with him ? A. No, sir ; 
I think not ; I put that in the hands of some one else, and let 
them attend to it. 

Q. What time did you send this advertisement, set up in 
type, to Mr. Craske's ? A. I left the office at five o'clock ; just 
about that time it was getting ready — five or a few minutes 
past five, I gave orders, as I tell you, for the boy to go over 
with it ; I remember there was a discussion took place between 
me and my superintendent in relation to the matter ; originally 
it was ordered to be electrotyped ; but not having time to get 
it electrotyped, which is a process which takes three hours, we 
were forced to take pap er macJie ; my superintendent ex- 
pressed doubt about its being able to bear the wear, and I 
said, " I will take the responsibility of that ; you send it over ; " 
I left about five o'clock. 

Q. The type had not left your place ? A. To the best of my 
recollection the type had not gone when I left the office. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. You say that you saw Dr. Talmage"that afternoon ; let 
me ask you whether Dr. Talmage was in the habit of running 
into your office ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Just state whether Dr. Talmage said anything to you at 
that time in relation to the Christian at Work ? A. The Doc- 
tor was a kind of mad that day, I thought ; when he came in 
that afternoon he seemed a little agitated — a little out of his 
usual line of conduct, and he said, " Shelley, I have had some 
trouble " — or words to that effect ; I cannot give them exactly 
— " I have had some trouble with the Christian at Work, and I 
91 



722 



have overheard conversation that leads me to believe I am 
sold out ; I am not going to stand it," or words to that effect 
■ — it was but a few moments' conversation, and he passed out. 

Q. I will ask you, as identifying the time when the adver- 
tisement went to Mr. Craske's, whether you recollect anything 
about the manner in which it was received by the workmen at 
Craske's, that would show it was as late as that ? A. I recol- 
lect the next morning my superintendent told me that they 
were a little annoyed there at bringing the order a little be- 
yond the time ; they were a little exasperated at it. 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Just one other question ; I thought you did not recollect 
the conversation when I asked you about it, in relation to Dr. 
Talmage? A. You asked me about the advertisement. 

Q. Can you recollect now what time it was that you had the 
conversation with Dr. Talmage ? do you recollect distinctly ? 
A. Not distinctly, no, sir; I do not, but it was during the 
afternoon. 
By Mr. Pierson : 

Q. Would you be apt to have noticed Dr. Talmage's name 
in the advertisement when it first came, if it appeared there ? 
A. No, sir, I don't think I would ; it would have been simply 
a matter of business with me ; I do my business for dollars and 
cents. 

Q. You did not look at the proof sheets ? A. No, sir ; that 
is done by some one else. 

, Q. The same reasons apply to the advertisement that was 
changed ? A. The same reasons exactly, sir. 

"I have heard the above testimony read, and find it correct." 

CHAELES C. SHELLEY. 

Mr. Charles Graslce was then called, and being duly sw 7 orn, 
testified as follows : 
By Mr. Millard :. 

Q. What is your business ? A. I am an electrotyper and 
stereotypes 

Q; Did an advertisement for the Advance come to you at 
any time in the year 1876 — to your office? A. I don't know 
that it was for the Advance. 

Q. What advertisement did come in that you have in mind 9 
A. An advertisement called " Dr. Talmage's Announcement." 



T28 



Q. Dr. Talmage's announcement — where did it come from, 
who did it come from ? A. Mr. Shelley. 

Q. And when did it come to you ? A. According to my 
books, on October 9th, 1876. 

Q. What did you do with it ? A. I stereotyped it. 

Q. Is that the same as papier-mache ? A. Yes, sir, what is 
called papier-mache. 

Q. How long would it take to do that? A. It would depend 
altogether upon the urgency. 

Q. Suppose a party was in a hurry, how soon could you do 
it ? A. In an hour. 

Q. What entry do you find of that on your books ? 

A. " One Stereotype Dr. Talmage's Announcement. 
"One do. do. do." 

making two. 

Cross-examined by Mr. Crosby : 

Q. You keep books in your establishment, do you not ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you keep a record of the jobs that come in from day 
to day ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And the order in which those jobs are done ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. How many jobs did you have a record of on that day, 
the 9th of October, 1876 ? A. Forty-three. 

Q. And what place of those forty-three jobs did this one of 
Dr. Talmage's hold V A. It was the thirteenth on that day. 

Q. That is, there were twelve before it ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And thirty after it ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you recollect at all yourself the time the job came 
in? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you ever know in the course of your business twelve 
orders to come in before five o'clock, and thirty orders after 
five o'clock on the same day — only twelve before and thirty 
after five o'clock on the same day ? A. I did not. 

Q. Did you ever hear that such a thing did occur in the 
course of your business ? A. Not to my knowledge. 

Q. Is it possible, according to your knowledge of your busi- 
inesSj that on that day there were thirty orders after five o'clock 
and only twelve orders before ? A. It is possible. 



724 



Q. It is possible ? A. Yes, sir ; it is possible, 
Q. Is it according to the ordinary run of jour business? A. 
It is unusual. 

Q. Do you know of any instance in which that did occur ? 
A. I do not ; I can't recollect any. 

Q. Were those jobs done in the order in which they appear 
on your books ? A. They were finished in the order in which 
they are on my books. 

Q. And there were thirty orders finished on the 9th of Octo- 
ber after this one of Dr. Talmage's announcement ? A. Yes, 
sin 

Q. Now I will ask you another question : on the 9th of Oc- 
tober were thirty orders finished after five o'clock, or were 
thirty orders finished after six o'clock ? A. No, sir ; we close 
from halt-past five to six o'clock, and they could not have been 
done ; that was not possible to enter thirty orders after six 
o'clock. 

Q . Let us try and just get this clear ; you say that these orders 
and jobs are put down in your book in the order in which they 
are finished ; you have testified that it would take an hour to 
make this stereotype ; now, if there was a stereotype came to 
you at five o'clock, it would not be finished until six? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Then according to you there were thirty orders completed 
after six o'clock, if this order was not completed until six 
o'clock ; do you see my point ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Would that be the case from your record in your book? 
A. Certainly not. 

Q. There were certainly not thirty orders finished after six 
o'clock ? A. Certainly. 

Q. Without any doubt? A. Without any doubt. 

Q. Were there thirty orders finished in your establishment 
after Dr. Ta:mage's Announcement was finished? A. Oh, 
yes, sir. 

Q. Were there thirty orders finished in your establishment 
after five o'clock on that day ? A. I can t say. 
Q. You can't say? A. I can't say. 

Q. Could there have been thirty orders finished in your es- 
tablishment after half-past five o'clock on that day — were 
there? A. That is possible. 



T25 



Q. But not possible after six o'clock ? A. Not possible after 
six. 

Q. Bat there may have been thirty finished after five o'clock ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And after half-past five ? A. Well, that would be a great 
number for that time, but it would be possible ; they might fol- 
low consecutively one a minute after five, and that would be 
the thirty minutes consumed, but it is not probable. 
By Dr. Millard : 

Q. Suppose when a given order came in there was a hurry 
about it, and you had other orders almost completed, might 
you not suspend on those orders to finish this, and thus 
finish them all about the same time ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Suppose an imperative order came in which must be 
done, I ask whether you could not suspend and whether you 
would not suspend on the other orders, and thus finish all 
about the same time ; would you not suspend the orders you 
were already working on, and just close them up ? A. We 
would suspend such orders as were being executed in the same 
way as Mr. Shelly's ; that would not stop the progress of the 
other orders in the shop. 

Q. And they might be all completed about the same time ? 
A. They would be all progressing. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. And all completed about the same time ? A. Not in the 
same time, one after the other. 

Q. Who made the entries as to the orders on that day ? A. 
They were made I think by two individuals. 

Q. Do orders sometimes come in simultaneously — quite a 
number at a time ? A. Very near together. 

Q. And they are not put down upon your books in the order 
in which they come ? A. No, sir ; not this book. 

Q. But simply in the order in which they are finished ? A. 
Yes, sir. 
By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. One question more ; I see that you have testified in what 
you have already stated to these facts, that this order of Dr. 
Talmage's announcement could not have come into your es- 
tablishment after half-past five or half-past four, for it would 



T26 



take an hour to finish it and bring it to half-past five ? A. I 
have not testified to anything of that kind. 

Q. You have testified that it would take an hour to finish 
it ? A. I have not said that ; I was asked about the time it 
would take to execute an order, and I answered an hour. 

Q. How long would it take you to execute this order of Dr. 
Talmage's announcement? A. I don't know how long that 
took ; I have no memory. 

Q. Can you tell from the size of it ? A. The urgency of it 
would have more to do with it than the size. 

Mr. Crosby : My question was founded upon a misunder- 
standing of your answer. 
By a Pbesbytee : 

Q. Is there not usually a parcel of orders near night? A. 
Yes, sir ; generally. 

Q. "Were all of those orders that you have spoken of papier- 
mache that day ? A. No, sir. 

Q. There were some of them that took much longer time 
than this particular advertisement ? A. Yes, sir. 
By Dr. Van Dyke : 

Q. Do you call papier-mache a form of electrotyping, or do 
you use the word electrotyping only in reference to metal ? A. 
The term papier-mache is applied erroneously ; it is simply a 
stereotype taken by means of a paper mould. 

Q. Do you call that an electrotype ? A. No, sir ; an elec- 
trotype is a plate made by means of copper. 

Q. Do you use a galvanic battery to make it ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q, Would you in the trade call papier-mache an electro- 
type ? A. No, sir; never. 
By the Modeeatoe : 

Q. I would like to ask you if your customers are in the 
habit of fetching their work during the last hour of the day 
more than at any other time, or if the various jobs accumula- 
ted during the day or more during the last hours ? A. The 
last few hours in the day are always urgent. 

Q. You spoke of two entries ? A. No ; two items of one 
entry. 

Q. What would those two entries indicate ? A. Two casts 
of one job. 



727 



Q. Would they be finished about the same time ? A. Yes ; 
about the same time. 
By Mr. Ceosby : 

Q. Do you keep a record of the time when the jobs come 
in ? A. No, sir ; I do not. 

"I have read the above testimony and find it correct." 

C. CEASKE. 

Mr. E. Remington was then recalled, and testified as follows : 
Examined by Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Dr. Talmage says in his evidence, as follows : " I kuew, 
" from the feeling of E. Kemington towards me, that it was my 
" only opportunity of getting a valedictory in the paper " (this 
with reference to putting the valedictory into the paper) ; " I 
" felt that if it did not go in at that time it would never go in ; 
" I would be sent out of the paper, my name would be drop- 
" ped, and the people would never know it;" did you ever ex- 
pressly give Dr. Talmage an opportunity to put in his valedic- 
tory ? A. I did. 

Q. Please state when, and under what circumstances ? A. 
1 don't remember definitely the time or elate ; I wrote a letter 
to Dr. Talmage at one time, in which I stated that I expected 
his valedictory would go in. 

Mr. Crosby— Now, I would call on the counsel for the de- 
fense to produce a letter from Mr. Remington to Dr. Talmage, 
dated Ilion, April 20, 1876. 

The counsel stated they did not have such letter. 

Mr. Crosby — Then I offer in evidence this copy made at the 
time, and we will prove by the next witness, Mr. Hallock, that 
Dr. Talmage received this letter, because he came to Mr. Hal- 
lock at once and stated the contents to him. We offer in evi- 
dence this copy made at the time. 

Q. Is that a copy of the letter that you wrote to Mr. Tal- 
mage ? A. It is. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. Did you make that copy? A. It was made by my di- 
rection. 

Mr. Crosby read the following letter : 

" Ilion, April 20, 1876. 

" Rev. T. De Witt Talmage : 

" Dear sir, — Having understood you to say that certain 



728 



" parties (friends of yours) were proposing to establish a re- 
" ligious newspaper with which they desired you to be edi- 
" tonally connected, and as the proposition I made to you with 
" a view to inducing these parties to put their capital into the 
" enterprise with which you are now associated, did not seem 
" to be satisfactory, and as I get no definite proposition from 
" them in reference to purchasing the list and good will of the 
" Christian at Work, I would make the following proposition to 
" them through you : t'.iat we will sell the list and good will 
" with the type for $25>000 cash ; this will enable us to pay up 
" the remainder of the debts and close up the affairs of the 
" company in a way that will bring no reproach on the cause 
" we have desired to serve. Your name has been so closely 
" identified with the paper editorially and otherwise, and many 
" of the present subscribers being your personal friends, it 
" would seem desirable that you should continue your rela- 
" tions to it, which would be secured by a transfer of the list, 
" as above proposed, to your friends, If they cannot accept 
" the proposition now made, it will be needful for you to write 
" your valedictory for next week's paper or the number follow- 
" ing, as it is very evident to me that we cannot afford to pay 
" a salary that will be satisfactory to you, if we continue to 
" publish the paper ourselves. This proposition, for the sale 
" of the Christian at Work, is upon condition that it be accept- 
" ed before we shall have made any definite arrangements in 
" other directions, and upon the further condition that you or 
" your friends will settle any claims that Mr. Corwin or the 
" Metropolitan Life Insurance Company may assume to have 
" against us. 

« Very respectfully, 

"E. REMINGTON." 

Q. Now, sir, I would like to ask you, in writing that letter, 
who were the parties that had proposed buying the paper ? A. 
I only knew Mr. Hallock ; other parties were mentioned in a 
note that I received from Dr. Talmage, writing to me to meet 
certain parties at his house, and at that meeting Mr. Hallock 
was the only person present ; I suppose there were to be 
others ; who they were I don't know. 

Q. And you refer to Mr. Hallock in this letter with other 
parties ? A. Yes, sir. 



729 



Q. Dr. Talinage further states : " I was not consulted in any 
" way by Mr. Kemington concerning the sale of the paper to 
" Mr. Hallock ;" did you ever consult with Dr. Talmage in re- 
gard to the sale of the paper to Mr. Hallock ? A. I did. 

Q. At what time in the year 1876? A. In the spring; I 
don't remember definitely as to the time ; I think it was March 
or April. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage ever express or intimate to you a desire 
that you should soil the paper to Mr. Hallock? A. He did. 

Q. Did he ever after that tell you that he had changed his 
mind ? A. He did not. 

Q. Dr. Talmage says of the sale of the paper by you to Mr 
Hallock, that it was " an attempt to drop me 
in injury and disgrace ;" did you ever attempt to 
drop Dr. Talmage and injure and disgrace him ? 
A. I did not ; and I wish here to take this occasion to say, 
and I desire to say it solemnly and emphatically, I did not ; 
and when I was interrupted I was about to say that in the 
negotiations with Mr. Hallock with reference to the transfer 
of the paper to him, and in previous conferences or negotia- 
tions with other parties, not even the thought of dropping Dr. 
Talmage in a manner to discredit or disgrace him ever entered 
into my mind, and no person with whom I have ever had any 
conferences or negotiations with reference to the transfer of 
the paper can be brought here to testify that I, directly or in- 
rectly, intimated that there was any design or desire on my 
part thus to degrade or disgrace Dr. Talmage. 

Q. As matter of fact, in this sale of the paper to Mr. Hallock 
did you attempt to drop Dr. Talmage ? A. I did not ; on the 
other hand, I thought the arrangement was one that would be 
eminently acceptable to him. 

Q. What reason did you have to think so ? A. Because of 
the previous interviews we had had with reference to the dis- 
position of the paper to Mr. Hallock, and because of the letter 
I had received from Dr. Talmage endorsing in very strong 
terms Mr. Hallock as a business man. 

Q. Did you have any reason to believe at the time that Dr. 
Talmage would not be dropped ? A. I did have very conclu- 
92 



730 



sive reasons, from assurances that I received from Mr. Hallock, 
that he fully expected Dr. Talmage to remain on the paper. 

Q. Dr. Talmage has testified that he received a long series 
of exasperating letters from you ; did you write such letters ? 
A. I did not ; I have only to regret that Dr. Talmage has not 
preserved those letters that they might be read here before this 
Presbytery, and the letters themselves would show whether 
the statements made before the Presbytery were correct ; I 
may say that I have had occasion during the year preceding 
the disposition of the paper to write frequently and fully to 
Mr. Hawley and to Mr. Dickinson with reference to matters 
appertaining to the paper, and referring more or less to Dr. 
Talmage ; and I should be pleased that either of those gentle- 
men should be brought here to testify whether in any one of 
those letters there was any language used offensive in its 
character, or improper, or that indicated on my part any 
wrong spirit towards Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Dr. Talmage says : " I know positively that Mr. Reming- 
ton sought the services of three other clergymen to take my 
chair ;" did you ever try to get a clergyman to displace Dr. 
Talmage ? A. I did not. 

Q. In commenting on the letter in evidence in which this 
remark occurs — a letter from Dr. Talmage to Hallock — " Better 
be non-committal in your conversation with Remington," Dr. 
Talmage says, " I mean don't tell my enemies what I propose 
to do ; I saw that he was plotting for my disgrace ; I not only 
thought so, but knew so;" did you ever plot, or in any way 
intend or design, or, as a matter of fact, did you ever do any- 
thing tending to disgrace Dr. Talmage ? A. I think I have 
already answered that question pretty fully ; I never had in 
my heart any purpose or desire, nor did I express any such 
purpose or desire to any person, to do any injury to Dr. Tal- 
mage in connection with the paper. 

Q. Dr. Talmage says further : "I paid $2,500 into the paper, 
which was more than E. Remington paid according to his 
means ; when the paper was sold, E. Remington, I presume, 
got some of the purchase money, but I got nothing, not even 
a thank you;" I want to ask you a few questions ; did you re- 
ceive a salary for your services on the Christian at World A. 
I did not. 



m 

Q. Were your expenses paid when you had occasion to 
travel in the interests of the paper ? A. They were not, 

Q. Did you receive any interest on the money that you gave 
the paper ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you ever get the principal back that you gave ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Did you get any of the purchase money that Mr. Hal- 
lock paid for the paper? A. Not a cent. 

Q. Did a dollar of the sale or receipts of the paper go into 
your pocket ? A. No. 

Q. Did you ever get any receipts"? A. Never. 

Q. How much money did you lose in the Christian at Work 
during the editorship of Dr. Talmage ? A. Something over 
$50,000. 

Q. Was Mr. Corwin informed of the financial condition of 
the paper ? A. He was. 

Q. Before he came in ? A. Fully ; I may say, in that con- 
nection, that we had the assurance of Dr. Talmage, in Mr. 
Corwin's presence, with no protest or expression of disap- 
proval on his part, that he would bring to us at once a large 
amount of cash advertisements, several thousand dollars, 
which could only be obtained through him. 

Q. Mr. Corwin has testified to certain extracts of letters 
from you which apparently indicate an intention on your part 
to let the paper drop in the spring of 1876 ; is it true that you 
did have such an intention, to let the paper drop uncondition- 
ally ? A. By no means. 

Q. Can you explain these extracts of letters which seem to 
indicate that ? A. They were written with reference to the 
possible necessity of transferring the list to some other pub- 
lisher, a paper of like character, unless Dr. Talmage's friends, 
or other parties, might be enlisted to put capital into the 
paper ; my means were absorbed in business and were not im- 
mediately available, and I did not feel that I could afford to 
make the sacrifices necessary to sustain the paper, unless 
other parties were enlisted, but I had no purpose in my mind 
whatever of dropping the paper in a manner to injure any one 
connected with it ; if it was stopped, it was simply to be stop- 
ped from the necessity of the case, as the Christian at Work, 



732 



and the list to be transferred to some other parties, on the 
best terms obtainable, and the proceeds to be used to liquidate 
the indebtedness. 

Q. Did you ever say or intimate that you would only carry 
the paper through the month of February, 1876? A. I did 
not. 

Q. Was the mail list of the Christian at Work a part 
of the marketable assets of the paper ? A. It was the most 
valuable part. 

Q. Dr. Talmage says that he is confirmed in his opinion of 
your enmity because you have been hanging about the court, 
and because you brought those letters here ; now, have you 
been hanging about the court ? A. Since my return to the 
City on business which brought me here I have been present 
at the sessions of this body twice ; and I may say in this con- 
nection that one of the counsel for the prosecution remarked 
to me — I have just simply to say that it was mentioned by one 
member of the prosecuting committee — that, in his opinion, 
I had not been attending the sessions of this court to the ex- 
tent that I ought, in justice to myself, in view of the testi- 
mony here. 

Q. And how about those letters which Dr. Talmage says 
you raked up, among his private and business letters, in 
order to damage him ? A. I brought those letters here be- 
cause they covered, as it appeared to me, an important point 
in reference to this case ; they had included some personal 
allusions that were unpleasant, but there were points in regard 
to which it seemed to me essential to produce them ; and, as 
it appeared to me, in connection with this trial, so much has 
been forgotten that it was desirable and important that such 
evidence as was obtainable should be presented, such as would 
be clear and explicit ; they were brought here with no pur- 
pose on my part to do injury to Dr. Talmage, but simply in 
the interest of truth. 
By Mr. Millard : 

Q. You say that you wrote him in March, 1876, in regard to 
the matter of the valedictory ? A. That was in April, I believe. 

Q. And the purport of that letter, if I remember it, was, 
that in case he did not succeed in effecting the sale, he might 
as well write his valedictory ? A. Yes, sir. 



733 



Q. Is that the only permission you ever gave him to^write a 
valedictory? A. No, sir. 

Q. "What other? A. In a personal interview, later on, I 
said substantially the same thing to him. 

Q. When was that ? A. I do not remember ; I think it was 
in the early summer. 

Q. That he might as well write his valedictory ? A. If he 
could not be satisfied with a smaller salary; there was being 
paid to Dr. Talmage and Major Corwin $8,000 salary, which I 
said to Dr. Talmage was practically being paid out of my 
pocket ; that he had not been able to enlist his friends in 
dividing the burden with me ; and that I did not feel that I 
could afford to pay that salary. 

Q. And if he did not accept it, he might as well write his 
valedictory ? A. If he did not accept a smaller salary ; I had, 
previous to that, written a request to Dr. Talmage and Mr. 
Corwin, that they should leave in abeyance $1,000 of their sal- 
ary, to be paid out of the prospective profits, if any accrued, 
from the publication of the paper, receiving, each of them, 
meanwhile, $3,000. 

Q. What has that to do with the answer to my question ; 
I ask you now what permission you gave him to write a vale- 
dictory ; is there any pretence of any ; you say that so far from 
this sale being surreptitious, that you consulted him in March, 
in regard to its being sold to Mr. Hallock ? A. He consulted 
me. 

Q. Did you have a consultation with him after March, be- 
fore the paper was sold? A. I think there was. 

Q. When? A. I don't remember distinctly; it was about 
the time when a certain letter was written to Mr. Hallock, re- 
questing him to be noncommittal in his intercourse with me 
as I was quoting him (Mr. Hallock) against Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Do you remember when that was ? A. I don't remember 
distinctly. 

Q. Can you give, approximately, the date of that letter ? 
A. No ; I cannot. 

Q. You don't know if it was as early as March, do you ? 
A. Not absolutely ; I think it was not. 

Q. So far as you know positively, the last time that you had 



73i 



any talk with him about selling the paper to Mr. Hallock was 
in March ? 

Q. Now I ask you again, if you consulted with him in re- 
gard to the sale of the paper to Mr. Hallock after March ; and 
if so, tell us when it was ? A. I cannot tell you ; I think 
there was either personal consultation or by correspondence. 

Q. Can you tell us about when it was, if it was after March ? 
A. I think about the latter part of April, or the first of May 
there was correspondence. 

Q. Is that the last ? A. I don't remember distinctly of any 
thing later. 

Q. So that, from June up to November, were you all the 
time carrying on the negotiation with Mr. Hallock ? A. Not, 
directly ; at intervals, through correspondence. 

Q. From June to October you never said a word to Dr. Tal- 
mage about the state of the negotiation between you ? A. I 
don't remember. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. When was the negotiation completed ? A. The negotia- 
tion with Hallock ? 

Q. Yes. A. It was completed, as between him aud me, on 
Saturday, the 7th of October. 

Q. Was it subsequently ratified and confirmed by the Trus- 
tees ? A. It was. 

Q. Was Dr. Talmage one of them ? A. He was. 

Q. Was he a stockholder ? A. He was. 

Q. Was he present at the time ? A. He was not ; Dr. Tal- 
mage had not been in the habit, I believe, of attending the 
meetings of the Board of Trustees at the time ; there was a 
meeting, a regular monthly meeting, which occurred prior to 
the formal consummation of the sale ; of that meeting Dr. Tal- 
mage was apprised by the Secretary, Mr. Hawley. 

Q. He was not present ? A. He was not present, but prom- 
ised to be present. 

Q. Did he promise you to be present ? A. No ; it is in tes- 
timony that he promised Mr. Hawley to be present, I believe. 

Q. I did not ask for that. A. I think Mr. Hawley is com- 
petent to testify as to that. 

Q. Never mind ; was Dr. Talmage in the City of New York 



735 



at the time ; did you not know that he was not in the City ? 
A. I was not aware that he was away. 

Q. You entered into this negotiation with Mr. Hallock, and 
sold the paper to him without any notice to Dr. Talmage of 
the sale, without any provision for him in the terms of the 
sale, and without any thirty days' notice, as stipulated for in 
the contract of May 29, 1876? A. I went into the negotiation 
with Mr. Hallock, with the full understanding that Dr. Tal- 
mage would remain with him upon the paper ; I had every rea- 
son to believe that he would. 

Q. You had no conference with Dr. Talmage about it ? A. 
No ; I did not think that there was any occasion. 

Q. And that there was nothing in the contract with Mr. Hal- 
lock relating to it ? A. There was nothing ; there was no 
occasion, as I understood Mr. Hallock assumed whatever con- 
tracts there were in connection with the paper. 

Q. Was there not in the contract any provision for Dr. Tal- 
mage ? A. There was no occasion. 

Q. There was no formal provision in that contract for Dr. 
Talmage to continue its editor, or that named him in any way? 
A. There was no occasion for anything like that. 

Q. That does not answer my question ? A. There was in 
mind no purpose of throwing Dr. Talmage out. 

Dr. Speak — I now repeat my question. 

The Witness— There is no occasion to repeat it ; I have an- 
swered it as fully as I think there is occasion to answer. 

Dr. Spear — I understand, then, that the witness will not 
answer that question ? 

The Witness — I have answered it. 

Dr. Spear — You have not answered it. 

The Witness — I answered that from what I knew of the re- 
lations existing between Dr. Talmage and Mr. Hallock, I felt 
that there was no occasion whatever to put any such stipula- 
tion or provision in. 

Q. And there was no provision in the contract for Dr. Tal- 
mage to continue as editor ? A. There was no occasion for 
any stipulation. 

E. REMINGTON, 



736 



At the close of Mr. Kemington's examination, Mr. J. N. 
Hallock was recalled, and testified as follows : 
Examined by Mr. Ceosby : 

Q. There has been introduced here, in the course of Dr. 
Talmage's testimony, a letter from C. H. Howard, which reads 
as follows : 

" The Advance, 

" Chicago, April 8, 1879. 

" Eev. T. De Witt Talmage, D. D., 
" Brooklyn, N. Y. : 
" Dear Sir, — Having seen in the published reports of the 
trial by Presbytery in Brooklyn that some one or two wit- 
nesses have averred or implied that the Advance made use of 
the subscription list of the Christian at Work, while you were 
editor of the Advance, I write to say that, as publisher and 
proprietor of the Advance, I feel called upon to defend you 
and myself from any such imputation. I am not certain that 
you were fully aware of the arrangement I made with the 
former "Western agent of the Christian at Work, at least the 
details of the contract with him. He had been a general agent 
for books and other publications besides the Christian at Work, 
and claimed that he owned and had a perfect right to the use 
of several thousand names which he had procured in the way 
of his own business. His former compensation, as he claims, 
included the use of the names in addition to a cash commis- 
sion. 

" I therefore made a contract with him, in which he was paid 
a definite yearly salary for his own services and the use of all 
his names. The words of this part of the contract defining 
the agreement on the part of the said former Western agent 
of the Christian at Work were as follows : ' And we shall use 
such agent's names and lists, and such other appliances as he 
has at his command, in managing the agency department of 
the Advance.' " 

Q. Does this explain the list business satisfactorily ? A. It 
explains the list so far as the Western agent is concerned ; he 
had charge of about 2,000 names, and that was all ; and we 
had every one of those names designated upon the list, with 
the figure " 4," so that when the Advance was sent to those 



737 



names, we knew that it was sent by this agent, or supposed it 
was sent by him ; but the Advance was sent to every one, as 
far as we could find out — to every one of our names, not only 
in this country and in Canada, but even to foreign subscribers 
who had no agents whatever and were connected directly with 
the office ; they received a copy of the Advance with the very 
mistakes that occurred upon our list, and they could not have 
been obtained in the manner mentioned; the letter does not 
explain it at all, only so far as the Western agent is con- 
cerned — about 2,00u names ; that is all. 

Q. I want you to identify that (showing paper); is that one 
of these foreign letters ? A. Yes ; I would like to say a word ; 
Mr. Howard does not deny, as I understand, that the list was 
in the Chicago office ; I wrote him a letter at the time — a very 
earnest letter — and received no such denial from him ; on the 
other hand, I can give the names of parties who saw it there. 

Q. What is the mistake in this address which was copied on 
the Advance address ? A. I am a very poor hand at reading 
French ; the regular letter address is " Pare de Neuille ;" the 
address is full of mistakes ; instead of " Pare," it is here 
" Parse," and the " de Neuille " is spelled with an " M " in- 
stead of an " N." 

Q. These were mistakes in the mail list of the Christian at 
Work? A. Yes. 

Q. And this letter — who is it from ? A. Mr. Thomas Yeat- 
man. 

Q. And he informs you that the same mistakes were on the 
addresses that reached him ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was this Thomas Yeatman on the list among the 2,000 
names belonging to the Western agent ? A. No ; he was on 
the foreign list. 

Q. Then the letter by General Howard does not explain the 
mail list ? A. No, sir ; by no means ; it explains it so far 
as the Western agent is concerned. 

Q. Dr. Talmage states that after he left the Christian at 
Work, the paper opened its columns, week after week and 
month after month, to all sorts of abuse about him ; is that 
so ? A. Dr. Talmage is mistaken ; he left in such a hurry 
that he forgot to subscribe, I suppose ; and I now produce 
93 



738 



two, volumes (1876 and 1877), and if there is one word there 
that reflects upon him, I apologize for it ; but there is not ; I 
had too much regard for Dr. Talmage to put in anything of 
the kind ; of course there is my own statement which I gave ; 
the whole of that statement I believe to be true ; and there is 
the editorial which took the place of " Good-bye, old friends ;" 
I went and saw Dr. Taylor particularly, and said that I did 
not want him to say a word about Dr. Talmage. 

Q. Then the columns of the paper were not opened from 
week to week and month to month to abuse Dr. Talmage ? A* 
Most assuredly, not ; there was nothing whatever in it. so far 
as I know. 

Q. Now, Dr. Talmage has referred again to the interview of 
March 6, at Mr. Cor win's house ; and there is one point that I 
wish to have you bring out in that, in reference to what Dr. 
Talmage said about the stoppage of the paper? A. There is 
one thing I wish to correct ; the interview consisted of two 
parts ; the first question was one of possibility — whether I 
could, in the event of the stoppage of the Christian at Work, 
get out a paper so that it could be furnished, without a break, 
to the subscribers ; that was the first thing ; then Dr. Talmage 
said, " Now, I tell you my plan." 

Q. There were two parts to the conversation ? A. Yes ; I 
so stated it ; or I intended so to state it at the time ; and if I 
did not, I made, a mistake. 

Q. Now, it was at this interview with Mr. Corwin that Dr. 
Talmage said he gave you the idea that if you would take hold 
of the paper, he would go on with you as editor ; he can recol- 
lect no other time ; can you ? A. I can ; it he gave me that 
idea once, he certainly conveyed it to my mind twenty times. 

Q. He says, that he remembers one, two, or three meetings 
for the purpose of being associated with you as publisher and 
himself as editor ; and those meetings were mostly incidental 
conversations on street corners ; he gives that idea — that they 
were merely incidental meetings on street corners, or like that ; 
is that true ? A. By no means ; I don't think that I ever met 
Dr. Talmage cn the street corners. 

Q. State the number of interviews you had with him on this 
subject ? A. Some fifteen or sixteen. 



m 



Q, State the interviews you had with him on this subject in 
the order that you remember them? A. The first I recollect 
was about the 1st, or perhaps the 5th or 6th of August, 1875, 
at East Hampton ; the next was a second meeting at East 
Hampton, on the 24th of August ; I recollect the third was on 
March 6, at Dr. Talmage's house ; and the fourth, March 9, 
three days later ; (I remember my wife remarked that I did 
not get home until 11 o'clock ); the fifth was with Mr. Reming- 
ton, and I think about the middle of March ; I will not be cer- 
tain about the date ; there was an interview just before that 
wbich Dr. Talmage says answers to the letter — " We pro- 
posed ;" the seventh was, I think, the last of March ; but I 
may be mistaken as to the date ; it was the " eggs on toast " 
interview ; then there was an interview on the 24th of April, 
1876, which should have been mentioned before. 

Q. I ask you about the interview on April 24, which has not 
been mentioned: state the substance of that interview ? A. 
Dr. Talmage called at my house very early in the morning on 
the 24th of April, 1876 ; I think that he had to wait until I 
came down stairs ; it was before breakfast, and I invited him 
into the parlor ; Dr. Talmage wanted me to take hold of the 
Christian at Work at once, and said that he had a letter from 
Mr. Remington, and he wanted to know if I would not buy it 
right off; I think he stated the amount was $20,000 or 
$25,000 ; I could not buy the propedry at that time ; he said 
that he had a valedictory in his pocket at the time ; that when 
he left home he intended to put that in the paper, but had 
thought better of it, and did not know that he should ; that is 
about the substance of it ; I recollect that he was there all the 
time they were eating breakfast. 

Q. Did you ask him to breakfast? A. No, sir ; we were so 
busy talking that I did not think of it ; I will the next time. 

Q. What was the next interview ? A. I think the next two 
interviews were at our office, 216 Broadway ; there were two in- 
terviews there ; I don't know how many that makes ; there was 
an interview at the park, and two at the Astor House, and 
two at my house, after that. 

Q. At all the interviews what was the subject of conversa- 
tion ? At all those interviews the Christian at Work, or being 



740 



associated together in the publication of the Christian at Work 
— that was the backbone of the whole thing. 

Q. Dr. Talmage said that you were so long negotiating for 
the paper, that he considered your remarks — " I think of buy- 
ing the paper," or " I'm about to buy the paper," a joke ; did 
you ever tell Dr.. Talmage why you were so long about it ? A. 
I think I did. 

Q. What did you say ? A. The reasons in my mind why I 
didn't buy the paper 

Q. Did you ever express to Dr. Talmage the reasons in your 
mind ? A. I think I did ; and I think the first was that I 
could not come to terms with Mr. Remington ; he wanted 
$25,000, and it was at a time of the year when I would be 
obliged to carry the list all through, and it was August L;thor 
20th, so that instead of paying $25,000 it would cost me 
$50,000 before October or December. 

Q. Were you afraid of losing the paper ? A. No, sir, I was 
not ; I had a perfect monopoly of it ; I knew that there was 
no one bidding against me on the paper. 

Q. Dr. Talmage says, in speaking of his ability to get any 
amount of capital, that on one occasion some friends had put 
down on a table in New York $250,000 for a paper which he 
was to edit, and that Mr. Downs was one of them ; how about 
that ? A. Dr. Talmage is mistaken about its being at that date 
that the $250,00.0 were put down in securities ; it was certainly 
a year or more before, and the securities were not of sufficient 
value for Mr. Bowen to accept of them. 

Q. I am speaking of Mr. Downs. A. Mr. Downs was, as 
Dr. Talmage states, a wealthy man — represented a good deal of 
money ; but Dr. Talmage forgot to state that Mr. Downs was 
my agent, and that it was for a paper for me ; Mr. Downs was 
my own boy ; I brought him up and fitted him for college ; 
Dr. Talmage forgets to state that he brought a letter of intro- 
duction from me. 

Q. Who did ? A. Mr. Downs took a letter from me to Dr. 
Talmage ; also, it is not quite accurate to say that Mr. 
Downs called upon him three times to start the paper ; but he 
did call twice ; and the third time Dr Talmage called upon 
him, and before he went, he came to my office and got Mr. 



741 



Downs' address, and went to see him ; Mr. Downs was only 
myself by proxy. 

Q. Dr. Talmage also spoke about a Chicago gentleman ; did 
you have any connection with him ? A. Yes, sir ; the Chicago 
gentleman was very much of a gentleman — William E. Gray, 
now of the Interior ; he was sent to me in regard to purchas- 
ing the paper, by Dr. Talmage, and we had a conversation. 

Q. Is this the letter in regard to it ? A. Yes, sir ; that is 
the letter in regard to it. 

Mr. Millard — Are we to try all these collateral issues? 

Mr. Crosby — This is not a collateral issue at all ; it was 
evidence drawn out here, and testified to when on the direct- 
examination of the defendant ; we could not have any concep- 
tion of the relations between Dr. Talmage and this witness in 
regard to the sale of the property ; and we have a perfect 
right to show how definite it was and how much this gentle- 
man had spoken with Dr. Talmage concerning the sale of the 
paper ; here is the letter introducing Mr. Gray : 
" Mr. Joseph Hallock : — 

" This will introduce my friend Mr. Gray, of Chicago, who 
thinks of purchasing the Christian at Work. Will you give 
him your memorandum of the paper's receipts, etc. ? He will 
make only honorable use of it. 

" Yours, &c, 

" T. DE WITT TALMAGE. 

" Wednesday." 

The Witness — I should say, in regard to this, that Mr. Gray 
told me that his object was to get in as managing editor ; that 
he had but $2,000 or $3,000 himself, and he frankly told me 
so ; and I did not fear any opposition on that score. 

Q. There was one little misstatement which I want you to 
correct ; you are represented by Dr. Talmage, in his evidence, 
as saying in regard to the announcement, that you told Dr. 
Talmage that he lied, six times, and that he replied that you 
were mistaken, six times ; did you tell him that he lied six 
times? A. I did not use the word "lie;" I spoke of it as six 
false statements, or six falsehoods ; in my mind, a lie carries 
something malicious about it ; whereas, a false statement may 
not ; for instance, when Dr. Talmage spoke of me as a Uni- 



T42 



tarian publisher, that was a false statement, but I do not con^ 
sider there was anything malicious about it ; I do not believe 
that Dr. Talmage has the least malice towards me in this mat- 
ter, and I know I have not towards him ; I do not believe he 
has the least spark of maliciousness towards me ; a false state- 
ment does not convey to my mind the same meaning that a lie 
does. 

Dr. Speak — You mean to say that a falsehood is not a lie ? 
A. No. sir, and it is not so defined in the dictionaries : a false 
statement does not convey the same maliciousness that a lie 
does, and you. are old enough to know that, I suppose ; I do 
not intend any offense. 
By Rev. A. Crosby : 

Q. I have only two or three questions; Dr. Talmage says 
that he supposed the paper had been sold to a gentleman in 
Philadelphia with w^hom Mr. Remington had been in confer- 
ence, and that he had no idea that you had purchased it until 
at the interview at his house on Wednesday or Tuesday even- 
ing; did you tell Dr. Talmage on Tuesday or Wednesday 
evening that you had bought the paper ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you give him any intimation that you had bought 
the paper ? A. I never thought of it ; I was not preparing a 
contract to give him $2,000 to edit the paper for Mr. Wanne- 
maker, who was the Philadelphia gentleman. 

Q. And you did not tell Dr. Talmage that you had bought 
the paper on Tuesday or Wednesday evening, whichever it 
was ? A. No, sir, I think not ; I have no such recollection ; I 
feel very sure that I did not. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage express to you any surprise, on Tues- 
day or Wednesday evening, that you had bought the paper? 
A. He certainly did not say, " Hallock, you are the man that 
bought the paper." 

Q. Did he express any surprise ? A. No, sir ; none what- 
ever. 

Q. Did he say anything to you that he thought it had been 
sold to a Philadelphia gentlemen ? A. No, sir ; I don't recol- 
lect that. 

Q. Did he say anything about a Philadelphia gentleman? 
A. No, sir ; not that I remember. 



743 



Q. Did you get any impression from him, on either of those 
evenings — whichever evening it was that the interview took 
place — did you get any impression whatever that he had been 
mistaken in regard to who had bought the paper ? A. No, 
sir ; I don't recollect it. 

Q. Dr. Talmage says that as editor-in-chief he had sub- 
stantial control of the editorial columns until the issue 
reached its destination — whether Houston, Texas, Bangor 
Maiue, or Liverpool, England. A. I owned the paper, and I 
had the right to take it out if he had the right to put it in, and 
I did so effectually that he did not see the article printed until 
he saw it here. 

Q. What is the date of the letter introducing Mr. Gray ? A. 
I cannot tell. 

Q. Can you recollect what time it was ? A. I cannot ; it was 
by the merest chance that I happened to come across the let- 
ter among others ? 

J. N. HALLOCK. 

Mr. Elbert Latham was then called, and testified as fol- 
lows : 

Examined by Mr. McCullagh : 

Q. How long have you been connected with the Brooklyn 
Tabernacle ? A. Something over twenty years with the Taber- 
nacle and the other church. 

Q. How long have you been connected with the present 
Tabernacle ? A. Ever since it was built, except that I was 
away from it about three months. 

Q. Are you an officer in the church? A. I am. 

Q. What office do you hold ? A. An elder. 

Q. Did Dr. Talmage and Mr. Cor.yii ever call upon you at 
your house to try and induce you to make a subscription to 
pay off the church debt ? A. They did. 

Q. State as well as you can remember the substance of that 
conversation. A. About a few days previous to taking up the 
collection in the Tabernacle (which I understood taken up, by 
the papers, for I was not there but my family were), Dr. Tal- 
mage and Major Corwin called on me at my house ; I was up- 
stairs and the carriage drove up to the door ; Dr. Talmage and 
Major Corwin got out, and my wife said, " There is Dr. 



744 



Talmage and Major Corwin. Look out ! they are begging !" 
That did not make any difference to me ; I went down and 
received them, Dr. Talmage and Major Corwin ; the Major 
never said but one word while he was in the house, and that 
was "yes ;" Dr. Talmage said that he wanted me to be one of 
eight to give $5,000 each to heal up a sore, or something of 
the kind ; I cannot recollect the word — on the Tabernacle ; I 
told him that at present I was not situated as I had been 
when I was getting a big salary, and that I could not give him 
one dollar or one cent ; he did not appear to feel very bad 
about it ; I told him what I would not tell every one — my cir- 
cumstances, and he appeared to be satisfied ; then I called 
Dr. Talm age's attention (I had a good opportunity) to an 
organ in my back room ; " do you see that organ in the back 
room ?" 

Q. You did not make a subscription of $5,000? A. No, nor 
one cent, and never thought of it. 

Q. Do you remember the Sabbath when Mr. Kimball was 
present at the Tabernacle for the purpose of raising the church 
debt? A. I heard of it. 

Q. Were you at that church that Sabbath? A. No ; I was 
sick at home. 

Q. Did you ever authorize Mr. Corwin to put your name on 
the subscription for $500 ? A. No, sir ; I never said one word 
to him about it. 

Q. Did you ever authorize any one else ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Or did any member of your family ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did any officer of the church ever attempt to collect it 
from you? A. No, sir ; no one ever asked for a dollar. 

Q. Are you still an elder of the church ? A. Yes, sir. 
Cross-examined by Mr. Millard : 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage ever had anything to do 
with putting you down for $500 or $5,000 — which was it that 
you were put down for ? A. $500, as I understood. 

Q. Do you know that Dr. Talmage ever did anything to- 
wards putting your name down ? A. No, sir ; and I never be- 
lieved he did ; I told him so in church. 
By Dr. Spear : 

Q. I understood you to say that Dr. Talmage, so far as you 



745 



know, had nothing to do with putting your name down for 
$500 ? A. I never heard that he did ; and I told him so. 

Q. Did you not say there, in the presence of Major Corwin 
and Dr. Talmage, that you had some money due you from the 
Board of Underwriters, and as soon as they paid you, you 
would give $500 ? A. No, sir ; I did not say anything of the 
kind ; I said something else, if the court wish to hear it. 

At the close of Mr. Latham's examination, Mr. B. F. Wells 
was called, and being duly sworn, testified as follows : 
Examined by Mr. Spear : 

Q. Are you a member of Dr. Talmage's congregation ? A. 
I am. 

Q. How long have you been in attendance there ? A. Ever 
since the church was built. 

Q. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Hallock since the 
commencement of this trial ? A. I had. 

Q. Where was it? A. In the other church, in Clinton 
street (Second Presbyterian Church). 

Q. Soon after the commencement of the trial? A. It was 
during the examination of Mr. Kemington. 

Q. And before Mr. Hallock's examination? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What did Mr. Hallock say to you in regard to Dr. Tal- 
mage at that time ? A. Do you want me to give the whole 
statement ? 

Q. Yes ; state all that occurred^? A. I made this remark to 
him, and said : " Mr. Hallock. I believe you are a witness," 
and he said, "Yes ;" " But," he said, " all I have to say, I can 
say within 30 minutes ; the case does not amount to anything; 
there is not enough in it to bring it before this Presbytery" — 
that is, I suppose, the part of it in regard to the Christian at 
Work ; he said he felt hurt at the time that he bought the 
paper, but all that there was of it was a little misunderstand- 
ing between the parties. 

Q. That is the substance of what he said to you ? A. He 
made this remark ; he said all he had to say would not hurt 
either Mr. Talmage or Mr. Corwin ; he made that remark ; he 
gave me the impression that it did not amount to anything ; I 
knew nothing about it at all myself. 
94 



746 



Cross-examined by Mr. Cbosby. 

Q. Was not what Mr. Hallock said : " I don't wish to say 
anything to hurt Dr. Talmage ?" A. No, sir. 

Q. Might it not have been that? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you hear Mr. Hallock's explanation of that inter- 
view, upon the stand ? A. Yes. 

Q. And you think that it cannot be harmonized with your 
memory of it ? A. I think it cannot. 

Q. His memory of it, and yours, differ ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know what there was peculiar in Mr. Hallock's 
private circumstances at that time ? A. I do not know of any- 
thing. 

Q. Do you know of any fact that would naturally make him 
feel in a peculiarly soft and tender mood ? A. No ; I know 
of nothing. 

Q. Do you not know that there was sickness and death in 
his household ? A. I do not. 
Presbytery adjourned. 

J. M. GEEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



May 1st, 1879. 

Presbytery met according to adjournment, May 1st, at 3 
P.M. 

Mr. E. W. Hawley was then recalled, and testified as fol- 
lows : 

By Mr. Crosby : 

Q. Mr. Hawley, Dr. Talmage has testified in regard to the 
money that he put into the Christian at Work ; how much 
money did Dr. Talmage put into the Christian at Work ? A. 
$1,750. 

Q. He did not then pay $2,500 into the Christian at Work, 
as he said ? A. He did not. 

Q. Did he give you $2,500 worth of stock, as he stated, 
after his withdrawal ? A. He did not have $2,500 worth of 
stock to give me ; the stock had been by an action of the Board 
of Trustees, more than a year before, at which Mr. Talmage 
presided, and all the Trustees were present — they voted to 
give all the stock above the issued stock and unissued stock 
to Mr. Eemington, and this stock that Dr. Talmage sent to 

CM rrAA i-U „.„ i. i„ U „ „„1 ~ J „ "U~~U~ 



747 



Q. Did you ever get any letters from Mr. Keroington con- 
taining any language offensive or improper or unkind towards 
Dr. Talmage ? A. I never received any such letters from him. 

Q. Did you see the correspondence of Mr. Keroington with 
the officers of the company — did it come under your care as 
the Secretary ? A. Very largely ; almost all the communica- 
tions to the office were letters from Eemington to myself, and 
iu them all I never saw anything of that character towards Dr. 
Talmage ; on the contrary, they were kind letters ; kind feel- 
ings expressed, and quite a regard for Dr. Talmage's reputa- 
tion as the editor of that paper. 

Q. What was Mr. Kemington's conduct, the character of his 
conduct, in his dealings with the officers of the company ? A. 
It was always respectful — never arbitrary. 

Q. Was it dictatorial in any sense ? A. Never ; he was a ' 
very mild man in all his ways with us. 

Q. Mr. C. H. Howard sent a letter which has been received 
here in which he says that he made a contract with the busi- 
ness manager of the Christian at Work, that an advertisement 
of the Advance should be inserted in the next number of the 
Christian at Work, and the advertising manager of that paper 
agreed at the same time with him that such advertisement 
should be inserted in the next number of the paper, although 
it should arrive late, as was apprehended, and so on ; now was 
this arrangement so made with the advertising manager or 
agent of the Christian at Work ? A. Mr. C. P. Conkling, act- 
ing as our advertising agent ; had privately entered into an 
arrangement with the advertising agent of the Advance to in- 
sert that article at that time, and he characterized his own act 
to me afterwards as the meanest thing he ever did. 
By Mr. Mlllaed : 

Q. I will just ask one question, Mr. Hawley ; do I under- 
stand you that Dr. Talmage paid in $1,750 in cash ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Do you know that he did not take up a note of $2,500, 
due in behalf of the company, in some way ? A. No, sir ; 
that was a mistake of the doctor's ; I will explain it, if you 
desire ? 

Q. Certainly. A. Dr. Talmage, when we incorporated the 



748 



new company, he was one of the incorporators, and he put in 
at that time $1,750, in this way : $500 was taken from his 
salary account, and $1,250 from a $5,000 note that he and 
three other parties made ; that is where he got his $1,750 ; 
that note was not a company note ; it was a note made by four 
men, individually, representing themselves, borrowing money 
from an outside parly to buy stock in the Christian at Work ; 
I don't really know how Dr. Talmage and the other parties 
settled that note. 

Q. You don't know how much he gave on it? A. Yes, sir ; 
I have heard he paid $2,500 on that note. 

Q. You heard he paid $2,500 ? A. Yes, on that note, but it 
did not go into the company. 

Rev. Dr. Porter was then recalled, and testified as follows : 
By Mr. Ckosby : 

Q. Dr. Porter, you testified here the other day on behalf of 
the defense, not merely as an expert but also on the part of 
the defense ; now, sir, I have a lew questions to ask you, under 
a common rule of law which has been applied in this case 
several times ; did you attend the supper of the St. Nicholas 
Society this winter ? A. I think I did, sir. 

Q. Did you see Judge Morris there ; S. D. Morris? A. Mr. 
Moderator, am I to give my biography here ; I decline to touch 
any such matter outside of the case in hand. 

Q. Did you have any conversation with Judge Morris that 
evening ? A. You have heard my answer. 

Q. In regard to this subject ? A. I don't remember whether 
I had or not ; very likely I did. 

Q. Didn't you say to Judge Morris, on that occasion, that 
you knew all about the facts of Dr. Talmage's leaving the 
Christian at Work ? A. I wish to say, Mr. Moderator, if you 
will allow me, I want to be perfectly courteous and fair, but I 
don't believe in the trial of one person when another is really 
the person under investigation ; and I wish to say that I talk 
every day, and sometimes nights, and what conversations I 
may have had nights during the last twenty-five years I cannot 
remember. 

Q. Did you say to Judge Morris on that evening that Dr. 
Talmage's conduct in leaving the Christian at Work was most 



749 



rascally, or words to that effect ? A. If you will bring Judge 
Morris here we will confer upon the subject ; I cannot remember, 
I will say to you, however, if you want me to say it, that until I 
became acquainted with the facts that were brought out at the 
beginning of this trial ; I told Dr. Talmage himself that I had 
had a wrong impression, and I was glad the trial had resulted 
in his complete clearance ; that is what I told him. 

Q. Yes ; then you decline to answer that question, sir ? A. 
Well, my words generally are simple and sometimes are intel- 
ligible. 

Q. Was I to understand from your answer that you declined 
to answer this question ? A. Of course I decline to. 

Q, Didn't you say that a man that had been guilty of such 
conduct as he had been guilty of in leaving the Christian at 
Work ought to be in the State's prison, or words to that effect ? 
A. It is perfectly well known that Judge Morris and Dr. Tal- 
mage are not friends. 

The Eev. Dr. Spear then presented the closing argument for 
the defense. 

At the conclusion of the argument, Presbytery adjourned. 

J. M. GKEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 

May 2nd, 1879. 

Presbytery met May 2d, at 3 P. M. 

The counsel for the prosecution presented their closing 
argument. 

Presbytery adjourned to meet May 5th, at 3 P. M., no one to 
be admitted, except the Session of the Tabernacle, the re- 
porters, and corresponding members. 

J. M. GBEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 

May 5th, 1879. 

Presbytery met May 5th, at 3 p. M. 

The roll was called in the order of the alphabet for 
opinions. 

At the close of Kev. Mr. McClelland's statement, Presbytery 
adjourned. 

J. M. GKEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



750 



May 6th, 1870. 

Presbytery met May 6th, at 3 p. M. 

The calling of the roll was continued for the expression of 
opinions upon the Talmage case. 

Pending the delivery of his opinion by Dr. Van Dyke, Pres- 
bytery adjourned. 

J. M. GREENE, 

Stated Clerk. 

May 7th, 1879. 

Presbytery met May 7th, at 3 P. M. 

The calling of the roll was continued to ascertain the 
opinions. 

At the close of the Rev. Mr. Halsey's statement, Presbytery 
adjourned. 

J. M. GREENE, 

Stated Clerk 

May 8th, 1879. 

Presbytery met May 8th, at 3 P. M. 

It was resolved that the session be continued until a decision 
should be reached. 

The calling of the roll for opinions was concluded. 

The vote was then taken by the calling of the roll, with the 
following result : 

Specifications VI. and VII. were thrown out by common 
consent. 

The vote was as follows : 

Yes. — Sustain. No. — Not sustain. Part. — Sustain in part. 



751 



Specifications. 



Ministers. 


I. 


II. 


III. 


IV. 


V. 


The 
Charge. 


J. A. Baldwin 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


B. G. Benedict 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 




Yes. 


Yes. 


Part. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


J. G. Butler 


Yes. 


Yes. 


No. 


No. 


Yes. 


Part. 


J. H. Callen 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


T. L. Cuyler* 














A. H. Dashiel* 














I. S. Davison 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 




No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


T. J. Evans 


No, 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


L. R. Foote 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


A. N. Freeman 


No. 


No 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


J. C. French* 
















No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 




Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


C. C. Hall 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


S. P. Halsey 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


P. C. Hastings 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


I. W. Hathawayf 














Chas. J. Jones 


Yes. 


Yes. 


No. 


Yes. 


No. 


Part. 
















W. M. Martin* 














A. McClelland 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Part. 


Yes. 


Part. 


Yes. 




No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 




No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


T. A. Nelson , 


Yes. 


Yes. 


No. 


Yes. 


No. 


Part. 


J. E. Rockwell 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 




Yes. 


Yes. 


Part. 


Yes. 


Part. 


Yes. 


0. S. St. John 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


Alfred Taylor 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No 


C. H. Taylor 


Yes. 


Yes. 


No. 


Part. 


Part. 


Part. 


H. J. Van Dyke 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


t 


Yes . 


Yes. 


John D. Wells 


Yes. 


Yes. 


No. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


J. G. Williamson 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


William Wolff 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Charles Wood 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 




No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


Elders. 
















No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 




Yes. 


Yes. 


No. 


Yes. 


No. 


Yes. 




Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 




Yes. 


Yes 


Part. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 




No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 




Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 




No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 




No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 


Nr. 


No. 




Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 




Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Neff 


No.' 


No.' 


No. 


No. 


No. 


No. 




Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 


Yes. 




Yes. 


Yes. 


No. 


Yes. 


Part. 


Yes. 




Yes. 


Yes. 


Part. 


Yes. 


Part. 


Yes. 



* Absent 

f Excused from voting. 



752 



Result. 

Specification I. — Not sustain, 2 5. Sustain, 20. 
Specification II. — Not sustain, 25. Sustain, 20. 
Specification III. — Not sustain, 32. Sustain, 8. Sustain in 
part, 5. 

Specification IV. — Not sustain, 26. Sustain 17. Sustain in 
part, 1. Excused, 1. 

Specification V. — Not sustain, 28. Sustain, 12. Sustain in 
part, 5. 

Charge. — Not sustain, 25, Sustain, 16. Sustain in part, 4. 

Notice of complaint against this decision of Presbytery to 
the Synod of Long Island was given by Rev. J. M. Sherwood, 
and others. 

The following resolution was then adopted : 

Whereas, the Presbytery of Brooklyn has cited Rev. T. De 
W. Talmage, D. D., to appear before it, as charged by com- 
mon fame with falsehood and deceit, under seven specifica- 
tions ; and 

Whereas, Dr. Talmage has answered the citation with the 
plea of not guilty, and has also requested a full examination 
of the matters alleged against him ; and 

Whereas, after a full and protracted trial, the specifications 
have been unsubstantiated by satisfactory evidence, or have 
been clearly disproven, or have been fully explained as to any 
guilty purpose or intention of deceit and wrong doing, there- 
fore, 

Resolved, That the charge be dismissed as unproven and 
disproven, and the Presbytery hereby express to Dr. Talmage 
its heartfelt confidence in him as a Minister of Christ, and its 
earnest desire that he and his church may share abundantly 
in the Divine blessing, and that his ministry may prove the 
source of rich spiritual influences to his people and to the 
community among whom he labors. 

The Rev. Dr. Talmage here read to the Presbytery a written 
address, after which Presbytery adjourned. 

J. M. GREENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



733 



June 2d, 1879. 

Presbytery met June 2d, at 4 p. M. 

A complaint from Rev. J. M. Sherwood and others was pre- 
sented, and read as follows : 

The undersigned give notice of their intention to complain 
to the Synod of Long Island against the action of the Presby- 
tery of Brooklyn in the case of the Rev. T. De Witt Talmage, 
D. D., on trial before the Presbytery on the charge of false- 
hood aud deceit, for the following reasons : 

1. Because during the process of the trial the Presbytery 
allowed the presence of an audience who manifested their sym- 
pathy for the accused by applause, laughter and hisses, ac- 
companied in several instances with personal indignities 
toward members of the court, whereby, as we believe, the 
judgment of the court was unduly biased and its dignity and 
authority brought into contempt. 

2. Because a mutual agreement made between the accused 
and a witness (whose sworn testimony had been openly de- 
nounced before the Presbytery by the accused as "a pack of 
falsehoods") — a so-called covenant to the effect that neither 
would defend his character at the expense of the other — a 
covenant resting upon no basis of acknowledgmeut either of 
error or of wrong by either party— was introduced before the 
Presbytery with such dramatic effect that many of the mem- 
bers were led to acconntjit a sufficient ground for condoning 
the falsehood alleged against the accused in the fourth speci- 
fication ; all of which proceeding was, in the judgment of the 
undersigned, out of place, improper, and hurtful to the inter- 
ests of justice in the case. 

3. Because testimony for the defence (viz., the affidavit of 
Gen. Howard) was introduced in open violation of the require- 
ment of the Book of Discipline, Chap. 6, Sec. 13, and at such 
a btage in the trial as necessarily to preclude the prosecution 
from all opportunity to cross-examine the witness. And this 
violation of rule is the more aggravated because the affidavit 
in question had been in possession of the counsel for the de- 
fence for some time before it was presented, and bore the date 
of March 21, while the date of its presentation was April 21. 

4. Because, on the other hand, the Moderator ruled out im- 

95 



754 



portant evidence offered by the prosecution, which should, in 
the interests of truth and justice, have been admitted. 

5. Because the accused, when under cross-examination, was 
allowed to make long and irrelevant answers to direct and 
plain questions, and to refuse to answer questions concerning 
matters of importance to the issue, thus obstructing the course 
of justice and confusing the minds cf the judges. 

6. Because the vote of the majority of the Presbytery, ac- 
quitting Dr. Talmage of falsehood and deceit, is in open con- 
flict with the recorded testimony in the case, and the grounds 
upon which many of the majority based their decision were ir- 
relevant, inconsistent, and fitted to bring religion and morality 
into contempt. We believe the charge to be clearly proven by 
the facts which are admitted on both sides, and that in view of 
these facts the judgment of the Presbytery is "injurious to 
the interes's of religion, and calculated to degrade the charac- 
ter of those who have pronounced it." We therefore appeal 
for redress to the judgment of the whole Presbyterian Church, 
as represented in her superior courts. 

7. Because the accused and his counsel have justified his 
whole conduct, as set forth in the testimony upon principles, 
which are directly opposed to those of truth and righteous- 
ness ; and because the acquittal of the accused, upon or in con- 
nection with such principles, is injurious not only to religion* 
but to public morals. 

J. M. SHERWOOD, D. G. EATON, 

J. M. GREENE, ADAM McCLELLAND, 

ARCH. McCULLAGH, J. W. BULK LEY, 

ARTHUR CROSBY, W. J. BRIDGES, 

C. H. TAYLOR, H. J. VAN DYKE, 

CHAS. J. JONES, W. H. HAZARD, 

M. G. YOUNG, V. MORSE, 

J. B. THOMAS, T. A. NELSON, 

GEO. B. CHAMBERLAIN, A. W. SEXTON. 
J. G. BUTLER, 
Brooklyn, 15th May, 1879. 

The Rev. Dr. Spear was appointed a Committee to prepare 
an answer to this complaint, which answer was read, and ap- 
proved by Presbytery as follows : 



755 



The Committee appointed to prepare an answer to the 
complaint of the Eev. J. M. Sherwood and others, with respect 
to the action of the Presbytery in the case of the Eev. T. De 
Witt Talmage, D. D., on trial before the Presbytery on the 
charge of falsehood and deceit, recommend the adoption of 
the following answer : 

The action complained of is the acquittal of Dr. Talmage of 
the charge in all its specifications, by a formal vote on each 
specification. 

The judgment was subsequently expressed in the following 
preamble and resolution (see resolution at the close of pro- 
ceedings of meeting held May 8th). 

It is against this action, either in itself or in the manner of 
reaching the result, that the complainants have notified the 
Presbytery of their intention to complain to the Synod of Long 
Island. 

To the first reason of the complainants the Presbytery 
reply : 

1. That during the taking of the testimony the sessions of 
the Presbytery were open to the public ; that there is no law' 
of the Book of Discipline or of established usage against open 
sessions in a judicial trial ; that it is the province of every 
ecclesiastical court to settle this question according to its own 
discretion, and hence that no superior judicatory has a right 
to review its decision on this point. 

i 2. That while there were occasional manifestations on the 
part of the audience, the}'- were promptly rebuked by the Mod- 
erator and always discountenanced by the Presbytery, and 
that the effect was to decrease such manifestations, and finally 
to suppress them altogether, and that there was evidently at 
no time any intended contempt for the " dignity and author- 
ity" of the court, and no desire to disturb the order of its pro- 
ceedings. 

3. That the statement of the complainants " that the judg- 
ment of the court was unduly biased" by the presence of an 
audience and by the manifestations made, is without the slight- 
est evidence to support it. The Presbytery most emphatically 
disclaims the imputation of a biased judgment, except as 
guided by the force of evidence, and can only express its sur- 
prise that it should have been made at all. 



T5Q 

To the second reason of the complainants, the Presbytery 
reply : 

1. That the witness here referred to is Rev. I. W. Hathaway, 
who was a member of the court, and in reference to whom 
Specification IV. charged Dr. Talmage wdth falsehood, in that 
in the winter ol 1876-7 he falsely accused Mr. Hathaway, then 
a theological student, of dishonest practices, and afterwards 
denied that he had done so. 

2. That this accusation against Mr. Hathaway to which Dr. 
Van Dyke testified as having been made to him in the latter 
part of November, 18V 6, was the subject of a series of inter- 
views between Dr. Talmage and Mr. Hathaway in the early 
part of January, 1877, which resulted in a satisfactory settle- 
ment of the whole difficulty, and the resumption of pleasant 
fraternal relations, and that Mr Hathaway having accepted this 
settlement as final and complete, never made any complaint to 
the Presbytery, and never sought any investigation or redress 
to the matter involved in Specification IV. 

3. That the "proceeding " to which the complainants refer, 
and which they designate as " a mutual agreement" or "so- 
called covenant," consists in the preparation of two letters 
addressed to the Moderator of the Presbytery — one by Dr. 
Talmage, and the other by Mr. Hathaway — written after the 
latter had testified for the prosecution and been discharged as 
a witness, expressing the regret of each that the matter which 
had been settled between them two years previously should be 
revived in the form of Specification IV., and in view of this 
settlement, declaring that in respect to this matter neither 
would undertake to vindicate his character at the expense of 
the other, which letters the Moderator announced to the Pres- 
bytery, and then requested each of these gentlemen to read 
his own letter in its hearing. 

4. That the Presbytery had nothing to do with the writing 
of these letters, or with their introduction as above stated; 
that after their introduction, a motion was made to strike out 
Specification IV., which was not adopted, and hence that the 
letters did not, so far as the Presbytery was concerned, in any 
way change or modify the course of procedure in the case. 

5. That it is due to Dr. Talmage to say that his strong 



T6T 

denunciation of the testimony of Mr. Hathaway, made in a 
moment of high excitement, was not intended, to characterize 
that testimony in reference to any matter pertaining to their 
settlement in the early part of January, 1877,1 an( ^ to sa y 
further, a fact which the complainants omit to mention, that 
Dr. Talmage subsequently, and in a calmer moment, withdrew 
the language as openly as he had uttered it. 

6. That not counting the Rev. Mr. McCullagh and the 
Rev. Mr. Crosby, who were not entitled to vote, and Dr. 
Van Dyke, who declined to vote on Specification IV., the com- 
plainants, with two exceptions, sustained this specification, 
thereby conclusively showing that the so-called covenant, to 
which they refer, had no such "dramatic effect" upon their 
minds as to lead them to condemn the alleged falsehood. 

7. That the ground on which the Presbytery acquitted Dr. 
Talmage of this specific accusation was that the latter part of 
it, which sets forth an alleged denial, was actually disproved 
by the testimony of the prosecution, and that the former part, 
which declares that he has falsely accused I. W. Hathaway of 
dishonest practices, was not proven, and hence that the evi- 
dence failed to sustain the accusation, and further that the 
judgment of the Presbytery in the premises was not influenced 
one way or the other by this so-called covenant, but was based 
solely on the evidence. 

To the third reason assigned by the complainants, the Pres- 
bytery reply : 

1. That this affidavit made at Chicago, bearing date of 
March 2 1st, 1879, was introduced by the defense -on the 21st 
of April, with the distinct statement that Dr. Talmage could 
not claim the right of having it accepted as evidence, and with 
the expression of a wish that it might be read as a communi- 
cation from Gen. Howard to him, and with the further state- 
ment that Gen. Howard was an invalid and could not come to 
Brooklyn as a witness. 

2. That after debate, the Presbytery decided to hear the 
paper as a communication, and that the prosecution might 
prepare questions to be sent to Gen. Howard, and that the 
paper was accordingly read without the reading of its attesta- 
tion as an affidavit, and hence that it was received by the 



758 



Presbytery, not as an affidavit, but simply as a letter, and was 
so regarded by the Presbytery in rendering its verdict. 

3. That at that stage in the trial, and in view of the uncer- 
tainty as to where Gen. Howard then was, it was not possible 
to follow the rale of the Book of Discipline referred to by the 
complainants, and that in these circumstances the Presbytery 
deemed it but just and fair to the accused to hear the com- 
munication from Gen. Howard on the same principle that it 
had just heard a letter addressed to him by Dr. Talmage, to 
which the prosecution did not object. 

4. That the Presbytery is satisfied that there was no trick 
on the part of the defense in delaying to offer this paper, as is 
shown by the fact that the trial did not commence until the 
24th of March, that the prosecution consumed the first three 
weeks in presenting their evidence, that during two days of 
the week following the Presbytery was not in session, and that 
the paper was offered when Dr. Talmage was a witness, which 
was the earliest point of time at which it could be properly 
presented ; all of which facts satisfy the Presbytery that there 
was no intended delay in submitting the paper, or desire on 
the part of the defense to secure any improper advantage. 

5. That the ends of justice were not in any way injured by 
hearing this communication from Gen. Howard, since the 
points sought to be shown by it were, when all the testimony 
of the defense had been adduced, fully sustained without it. 

To the fourth reason of the complainants, the Presbytery 
reply : 

1. That the complainants do not state what this evidence is 
which was thus ruled out. 

2. That any ruling of the Moderator upon evidence was sub- 
ject to an appeal to the court, and that if the complainants or 
any of them did not avail themselves of this right then this 
was purely their own fault. 

3. That the Book of Discipline, while prescribing rules as to 
the witnesses to be adduced and as to the order to be pursued 
in their examination, and also providing that no question shall 
be put or answered except by permission of the Moderator, 
lays down no rule as to what is admissible evidence, and hence 
leaves this point to be settled by the wise discretion of the 
judicatory. 



759 



4. That in the absence of any such rule furnished by the 
Book of Discipline, the Moderator saying in the early part of 
the trial that an ecclesiastical court should not, in the trial of 
a minister, make its shield of protection a hair's breadth less 
than that which civil courts provide in the trial for petit of- 
fenses, announced to the Presbytery that, subject to the right 
of appeal in all cases, he should be guided in the admission of 
evidence by what he regarded as the general rules on this sub- 
ject, as established in this country, and as found on the whole 
best adapted to keep out irrelevant matter and admit only 
evidence which is proper and pertinent to the issue ; and further, 
that the Moderator did, with entire impartiality and satisfac- 
tion to the Presbytery, apply these rules in the conduct of the 
trial, always entertaining an appeal from his decision, and fol- 
lowing the judgments of the court. 

To the fifth reason, the Presbytery reply : 

1. That it is not true that any allowance as to the answers 
of questions on cross-examination, or as to the declination to 
answer questions, was extended to Dr. Talmage that was not 
equally extended to all the other witnesses. 

2. That no such allowance was extended to any witness, 
either calculated or designed to obstruct the course of justice 
or confuse the minds of the judges. 

3. That the Presbytery had no power in any case to compel 
an answer to questions which a witness for his reasons, as was 
sometimes the case, declined to answer. 

4. That the conduct of the trial in respect to the examina- 
ti: n of witnesses, and their answers to questions, whether on 
their direct or cross-examination, was impartial alike toward 
the prosecution and the defence, and hence that there is no 
just foundation for the fifth reason assigned by the complain- 
ants. 

To the sixth reason, the Presbytery reply : 

That the judgment of the majority in this case is the judgment 
of the Presbytery of Brooklyn, and that the complainants, how- 
ever honest in their views or seemingly confident and assured 
in their statement of the same, have no just ground for assum- 
ing or saying that this judgment " is in open conflict with the 
recorded testimony in the case. " The Presbytery most un- 



760 



qualifiedly deny the truth of this statement, and regard the 
complainants as entirely mistaken in their estimate of the evi- 
dence. Moreover, the remarkable allegation that " the grounds 
upon which many of the majority based their decisions were 
irrelevant, inconsistent, and fitted to bring religion and 
morality into contempt," is utterly foreign to the truth and 
wholly unjustifiable by anything said on the part of those who 
voted for the acquittal of Dr. Talmage. 

The Presbytery cannot for a moment concede that the com- 
plainants have any monopoly of honesty, good conscience and 
sound judgment in this case, or that its decision was based 
upon anything but the evidence, and any implication to the 
contrary is false to the facts. The Presbytery believed and 
now believes that Dr. Talmage, in the light of the evidence, 
was entitled to acquittal, and that any other judgment would 
have been wrong, and to him a manifest injustice. That 
the complainants do not so think is a matter of regret 
to the Presbytery ; but this fact, though much regretted, fur- 
nishes the Presbytery with no ground for doubting the correct- 
ness of its own judgment, especially as the Presbytery had the 
opportunity of fully hearing all they saw fit in support of the 
opposite view. 

In answer to the seventh reason, the Presbytery reply : That 
its judgment in the case was not based on any theories or 
" principles " avowed by either the prosecution or the defense, 
whether in the course of the trial or in the final sumning 
up of the counsel ; but was based upon the fact, and this only 
— that the evidence adduced during the trial did not show r that 
Dr. Talmage had been guilty of falsehood and deceit in the 
matters alleged against him. The question of guilt or inno- 
cence, in the light of the evidence, is the only question on 
which it passed judgment. Hence this seventh reason, what- 
ever may be true or not true as to the principles upon which 
"the accused and his counsel justified his whole conduct" — a 
point upon which the Presbytery has no occasion to express an 
opinion — has no relevancy whatever to the acquittal of Dr. 
Talmage. That acquittal had nothing to do with anything 
but the evidence, and was based solely thereupon. The sim- 
ple fact is that the guilt of the accused was not, in the judg- 



761 



ment of the Presbytery, proved by the evidence, and this is 
the best possible reason why he should have been acquitted. 

The Presbytery, in concluding this answer, cannot forbear to 
express its sincere regret that the complainants should feel it 
to be their duty to complain of its actions, especially in view of 
the insufficient reasons assigned for such complaint. While the 
Presbytery fully recognizes the right of complaint, and does 
not judge of the motives of the complainants, it fails to see 
the expediency of its exercise in this case, or the probability 
of any practical good as resulting thereupon. The church of 
which Dr. Talmage is the pastor gratefully rejoice in his ac- 
quittal, and this shows that his influence among his own people 
has not been impaired by any disclosures made during the 
trial. 

The best interests of religion in the judgment of the Pres- 
bytery are to be served, not by continuing the agitation of the 
subject in the Presbytery, and in the churches under its care 
in the City of Brooklyn, and in the Church at large, but by 
letting the whole matter pass out of notice as speedily as 
possible. 

The Presbytery is prepared to defend its action before the 
higher courts of the Church it' necessary, yet it does not believe 
that the complainants will attain any good to religion or mo- 
rals by forcing this necessity upon the Presbytery, and does 
believe that such action on their part would be a mistake as 
to the dictates of duty and Christian expediency." 

Presbytery adjourned. 

J. M. GKEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



October 13th, 1879. 

Presbytery met October 13th, at 4 p. m. 

The Eev. Aaron Peck presented the following : 

The committee appointed to procure signatures to the testi- 
mony taken in the Talmage case respectfully report that they 
have held no meetings, for the following reasons : 

(1 ) At the time the request was made for the copy of the 
testimony, it was in use by the counsel in the case. 

(2.) The committee were out of town during the summer, so 
96 



762 



that it was impossible to call them together and procure the 
required signatures. 

The failure to do the work assigned the committee was not 
from any desire to neglect or avoid the discharge of duty, but 
for reasons assigned. The Chairman desires to be relieved 
from further service on the committee. 

The Eev. Aaron Peck was then, at his own request, relieved 
of the chairmanship of the committee to procure the signatures 
of witnesses to their testimony in the Talmage trial, and Eev. 
Lewis E. Foote was appointed in his place. Eev. C. Wood 
was added to the committee. 

The following resolution was adopted : 

Besolved, That the committee be directed to read the record 
of the testimony in the case of Dr. Talmage to all the wit- 
nesses, and procure their signatures to the same. 

Presbytery adjourned. 

J. M. GEEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



October 20th, 1879. 

Presbytery met October 20th, at 10 A. M. 

The committee to obtain signatures of witnesses presented 
the following report, which was approved : 

" The committee appointed by Presbytery to read the testi- 
mony in the Talmage trial to the witnesses, and receive their 
subscription thereto, respectfully beg leave to report the fol- 
lowing, viz. : 

The testimony of the following witnesses was read to them, 
and their signatures thereto have been secured : Messrs. 
Greene, Wood, Pearson, Pearsall, Prime, Shelley, Morris, 
Craske, Waugh, Hathaway, Eemington, Nichols, Leverich, 
Mrs. Talmage. Mr. Talmage signed with the presumption that 
it was correct, not having time to hear it read. Mr. Corwin 
signed, writing the following note : ' The pressure of very im- 
portant business makes it impossible for me at this late date 
to give the time necessary for a careful reading of my testimony 
in Dr. Talmage's trial, having waited to be called just six 
months to read and correct it. Having read three pages of 
my cross-examination, the answers in several instances being 



763 



found incorrect, I therefore sign it at the request of the com- 
mittee, to show my respect for Presbyterial authority, without 
vouching for the correctness of the record.' 

The following persons had read their testimony privately 
and signed it : Van Dyke, Crosby, Dickinson, Hallock, Bright. 
Mr. Hawley being in Chicago, a copy of his testimony was 
sent to him, and by him read and signed without the action of 
the committee. The copy was compared by the committee 
with the original, and found to be correct. Dr. Porter being 
absent in Europe, the committee were unable to communicate 
with him." 

It was then moved that the committee be discharged. 
After discussion, the yeas and nays were called, with the fol- 
lowing result : 

Yeas — Gilbert, Drake, Baldwin, Spear, Davison, Evans, Free- 
man, Rockwell, Neander, Callen, Wood, Hastings, Meury, Tal- 
mage, A. Taylor, Williamson, Neff, Pfeil, Batterman, Hall — 

JSfaijs — Van Dyke, Wells, Butler, McClelland, Peck, Ludlow, 
Greene, Crosby, Foote, James, Weed, Halsey, Burchard, 
Roberts — 14. 

A paper was presented by Dr. Spear which, after some 
changes, was adopted, and is as follows : 

" In respect to the testimony taken in the trial of Dr. Tal- 
mage, I move the adoption of the following paper, which, or a 
duly certified copy of which, the clerk is directed to put into 
the hands of the Moderator of the Synod of Long Island, at 
the commencement of its session at Jamaica, on the 20th inst. 

The Presbytery of Brooklyn hereby represents to the Synod 
of L. I., that in the recent trial of Dr. Talmage on the charge 
of falsehood and deceit, it appointed a committee for the pur- 
pose of reading the testimony to the witnesses, and obtaining 
their subscription to the same during the trial, as directed by 
our Book of Discipline, Chap. VI., Sec. XVII. This committee 
made no report until the meeting of Presbytery, which was 
held on Monday of last week, and then reported that the duty 
assigned to it had not been discharged in a single instance. 
The Presbytery exceedingly regrets that such an omission 
should have occurred, and that earlier action should not have 



'764 



been taken to supply, if possible, an appropriate remedy. 
There was no intention on its part, or on that of the committee, 
to" disregard a positive mandate of the Book of Discipline ; and 
the Presbytery can explain the omission only from the want 
of seasonable attention to the importance and authority of the 
rule on this subject. The Presbytery further represents, that 
at the meeting of last Monday one of its members, who was a 
witness in the case, informed the Presbytery that he had by 
himself gone to the place where the record of the testimony 
was deposited, and had read his own testimony and subscribed 
his name thereto, not in the presence or with the knowledge of 
the Committee, or of the Presbytery ; and that another member 
of the Presbytery, who was also a witness, informed it that he 
had done the same thing, and that in addition thereto, he had 
secured the attendance of several of the witnesses for the 
prosecution, who in his presence had respectively read the 
record of their testimony, and signed their Dames thereto. 

The Presbytery reorganized the Committee, and directed it 
to read the testimony to all the witnesses, and procure their 
approval of and subscription to the same, and report the result 
to a meeting on the immediately ensuing Monday. The Com- 
mittee appears to have pursued their work with great earnest- 
ness and diligence, and the report at the time specified showed 
the following facts : 

(1.) That the testimony had, either by the Committee or by 
sub-committees, been read to fourteen of the witnesses, viz. : 
Messrs. Pearson, Wood, Pearsall, Prime, Greene, Morris, 
Shelley, Leverich, Waugh, Craske, Remington, Hathaway, 
Nichols and Mrs. Talmage, and that these witnesses, after the 
reading, had subscribed their names respectively to their own 
testimony. 

(2.) That two of the witnesses, viz., Dr. Talmage and Mr. 
Corwin, whose testimony was very voluminous, and who, owing 
to the urgent pressure of o:her engagements, could not spare 
the time to hear it read, appended their signatures to the same 
without hearing it read, Dr. Talmage, on the assumption that 
the record was correct, as the only thing he could do in co-op- 
erating with the direction of the Presbytery ; and Mr. Corwin 
with the following statement, viz. (see beginning of record of 
proceedings of this date, Oct. 20). 



765 



(3.) That five of the witnesses, viz., Messrs. Dickinson, Yan 
Dyke, Hallock, Crosby and Bright, did not appear before the 
Committee to hear their testimony read to them, or any sub- 
committee acting under its authority, and that consequently 
their testimony has not been read to them under any authority 
of the Presbytery. The Presbytery is informed that these 
gentlemen have read and signed their testimony by themselves ; 
but this was without the direction and authority of the Pres- 
bytery. 

(4.) That one of the witnesses, viz., Dr. Porter, is in Europe, 
and hence that it has not been possible to read his testimony 
to him and procure his subscription to the same. 

(5.) That, as the Presbytery is informed, the testimony of 
Mr. Hawley was transcribed from the record, without the 
knowledge or direction of the Committee, and sent to him in a 
distant City, and that this copy has been read and signed by 
him and returned ; all of which proceeding was and is without 
any authority of the Presbytery. 

The Presbytery submits this statement, that the Synod of 
L. I., in considering the complaint made against its action in 
the case of Dr. Talmage, may be duly informed of all the facts 
relating to the subject matter. The Presbytery feels it to be 
due to the truth to state the facts without any attempt to jus- 
tify or even excuse the failure to secure the proper authentica- 
tion of the testimony during the pendency of the trial, other 
than to say that the failure is an omission without any inten- 
tion to violate the rule. It is for the Synod in its wise discre- 
tion to decide what it shall do in view of an omission which 
the Presbytery sincerely regrets." 

A statement was made by Dr. Yan Dyke, in which Mr. Cros- 
by concurred, as follows : 

" The undersigned, a witness in the trial of Rev. Dr. Tal- 
mage, informs the Presbytery that his failure to meet the com- 
mittee appointed to take the signatures of witnesses grew out 
of his belief that he had already complied with the require- 
ments of the law. He is still of that opinion. But in deference 
to the opinion expressed by the majority of the Presbytery in 
the present meeting, he now declares his readiness to. have his 



766 



testimony read to him by any person appointed by the Pres- 
bytery, and to sign it in their presence. 

(Signed) HENEY J. YAN DYKE. 

I agree in the above statement. 

(Signed) • ARTHUR CROSBY." 

On motion, Rev. Mr. Foote was appointed to read their tes- 
timony to the above witnesses this afternoon, and to take 
their signatures. 

To this motion was offered an amendment, that the Rev. 
Mr. Foote be appointed a special committee to read the testi- 
mony and take the signatures of any other witnesses who may 
be willing to avail themselves of this provision up to the time 
of the consideration of the case by the Synod. 

The amendment was lost, whereupon notice was given of 
protest against this action by Dr. Van Dyke and others. The 
protest was subsequently reported as follows, and having been 
read to Presbytery, was ordered to be entered upon the min- 
utes : 

" The undersigned respectfully protest against the action 
of the Presbytery of Brooklyn on this twentieth clay of Octo • 
ber, in the following particulars. A motion having been made 
to appoint a special committee to read to Rev. Mr. Crosby and 
Rev. Dr. Yan Dyke the record of their testimony in the late 
trial of the Rev. T. D. W. Talmage, D. D., an amendment was 
offered to the effect that the same committee should be au- 
thorized to perform the same service in behalf of Messrs. Dick- 
inson, Bright and Hallock, provided it could be done before 
the Synod of Long Island should have entered upon the con- 
sideration of the complaint against the Presbytery. The 
amendment was voted down, and the original motion was 
adopted. We respectfully protest against the rejection of the 
amendment for the following reasons : 

(1.) Because there is no reason why the Presbytery should 
extend the time in the case of Dr. Yan Dyke and Mr. Crosby, 
which does not apply with equal force to the other three wit- 
nesses. 

(2.) Because it is evident that these witnesses failed to meet 
the committee previously appointed to read their testimony to 
them, and obtain their signatures, under the impression that 



767 



they had already complied with the requirements of the law 
by reading that testimony and signing it by themselves. 

(3.) Because there is every reason to believe that Messrs. 
Bright, Dickinson and Hallock are entirely willing to comply 
with the requirements of Presbytery, and that the service 
contemplated in the rejected amendment could easily have 
been performed before the meeting of Synod. 

(4.) Because the rejection of the proffered amendment lays 
the majority of the Presbytery open to the just suspicion of 
an unwillingness to remove technical obstacles out of the way 
of a fair hearing of the complaint now pending before Synod. 

(Signed) HENBY J. YAN DYKE, 

adam McClelland, 
lewis k. foote, 
ARTHUB cbosby, 
J. MILTON GBEENE. 

Presbytery adjourned. 

J. MILTON GBEENE, 

Stated Clerk. 



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